Work and martial arts styles [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

ZIM

07-14-2003, 04:25 PM

Hiya.

You learned that "control" stuff that they foist on the social workers, right? :)

There is one poster by the name of Old Jong on the wing chun lists- he works at a mental facility, maybe he can help. Obviously, he is pro-wing chun, but I have trouble seeing how it would work best. IMPO, a year of that, then progress to Judo or something, may fill the bill. Also: Tai chi, aikido, a good law enforcement sponsored short course perhaps.

What do you have around you?

rubthebuddha

07-14-2003, 04:28 PM

philbert's was biased response #1. i'll give you biased response #2: wing tsun (or another wing chun branch :)). either that, or jkd, if it works a lot of flow-lock.

for your purposes, i doubt you're looking for something intrinsically lethal, nor by your size could we suggest something strength oriented.

let us know what general area you're in (city, or state) and a lot of peeps here can suggest not only styles, but schools in your area, as unless you're willing to travel or move, your location will determine your options.

as far as your co-worker, i hope he/she recovers quickly. in reflection for your self-defense program, think of how long you spend studying it, and think of how long you spent getting your other occupational training (several years for a degree as a starting point vs. a few weekends or a few months as a basis for self defense). proficiency takes not only good ideas, but lots of time and work, and self defense is not one of those subjects you can cram for.

Laughing Cow

07-14-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Angie327
I work at a facility for troubled and criminal youth,I'm lost my faith
in the self defense course taught by our instructor that learned it at Cornell University,one of our staff got beat up very badly the other day.

Any form of combat/SD training will only increase your chances of surviving a confrontation.

Basic rule still applies:
"You get into a fight you WILL get hit and hurt."

How you recover from that hit is what seperates the winner from the looser.

MA training does not give a guarantee of:
1.) winning the confrontation
2.) getting out of it unhurt

Just some food for though, as I know that many SD and MA schools state that this things will happen if you traing under them.

As for style, anything that allows you to control your opponent quickly.

Cheers.

Angie327

07-14-2003, 04:45 PM

So what style would allow me to control my opponent quickly??

rubthebuddha,you are right,we cannot do anything lethal.

I live in north Georgia close to Chattanooga Tennessee.

What is jkd??

Yung Apprentice

07-14-2003, 05:01 PM

Jeet Kune Do. It's the style (or principle depending on how you look at it) founded by Bruce Lee. No forms, training mostly sparring, two man sets, and a lot bag work. Basically the whole thought was, use what is usefull to you, throw out what isn't.

Since your dealing with the "YOUTH" (who are more then likely twice your size) i would suggest something that has locks or submissions. If you can find a good Kung Fu school, that has some real good Chin Na, which is mostly locks and joint manipulation, that would be good. Judo, Akido might be the stlyes that fit your needs.

What do you guys think of brazilian jui jitsu in this situation? I think it might be another style that she should look into, but then again she is kinda small, and I'm not to familiar with BJJ as it is.

rubthebuddha

07-14-2003, 05:02 PM

jeet kune do -- the "style" founded by bruce lee, originally based in wing chun but modified heavily to fit the individual person. as a smaller person, i'd say jkd for you would be more close-range work and less for tornado kicks. a good jkd instructor can teach what's called a flow-lock sequence that i think would be fantastic for what you do. it can be used for both restraint and for outright breaking of joints, depending on the level of threat you're facing.

as far as what's up in your area, i haven't a clue. another moderator on here, sevenstar, lives in memphis and is a friend of mine. he knows his stuff, and if he had any suggestions for what you could study in your area, i would put full faith in them.

HuangKaiVun

07-14-2003, 05:02 PM

I've got two students in your shoes - a man AND a woman.

The woman works in the jail, the man used to work in a group home.

I wish you could try our school, as our guys face this day in and day out. The tactics needed are totally different than what people usually teach in self-defense courses. TECHNIQUE is what you need.

But we're on the other side of the country!

Angie327

07-14-2003, 05:41 PM

Memphis is very far away

Becca

07-14-2003, 06:37 PM

Tai Chi and Kempo are two excelent choices. The first is Chinese, the second can be either Japanese or Korean. They will help with flexability, reqiure little strenth, work well with prior injurries and small size. Also very easy to find schools that teach them in almost any city.

Barring that, try something in the theame of grappling. Brazilian Jujitsu (BJJ) might be hard to find, but good if you can. Aikido and Judo would also be good, but the last three will require alot more effort to get to the level you will need to defend yourself and controll the other "guy."

Oso

07-14-2003, 07:21 PM

Angie, you are pretty much in the middle of "No Martial Arts Land"

check your yellow pages and if any strike your fancy or match any of the criteria already mentioned then post them here and we'll either tear them apart or recommend one of them.;)

If there's nothing in Chattanooga then Atlanta is probably your best bet. Or try Knoxville if it's actually closer.

to second rub's thoughts, and vent a pet peeve of mine, do consider how much time you put into your training. No 4 or 8 hour seminar is going to do anything more than show you something. It takes repetition to learn it.

I have a student who does the same thing and he about got his thumb bit off because he could only use the specified 'techniques'.

Good Luck and we'll try to help you find a good place to train.

Xebsball

07-14-2003, 07:37 PM

Aikido (i heard some bouncers use it) and maybe BJJ might be good to control them with jointlocks without doing damage

Tai Chi is good, but it is very very very very hard to find people who teach it with its full martial capacity, mostly its taught "for health"

rogue

07-14-2003, 07:43 PM

What would be the best martial arts style for someone small(I'm 110 lbs.) to learn? Find a new line of work right now. Seriously, it's kind of late in the game to find out that you don't intimidate the inmates with your size, they're stronger than you and your confidence in controlling a situation is just not there. I've had several guys that I consider bad and they got out of corrections as soon as they could. One just didn't go back and he was a hellacious street fighter.

If you insist on staying on the job stay away from 99% of traditional arts and arts like JKD, and find something geared specifically to what you'll encounter. Check with as many LEOs in your area and see what they do as they'll be encountering almost the same situations and have to play by the same rules as you.

Sorry Angie but that's way too dangerous a profession if your skills aren't there.

Good luck and listen to Laughing Cow.

Laughing Cow

07-14-2003, 07:54 PM

One thing I forgot to add.

There is another factor, that will matter for you.

Are you capable on inflicting pain on your "opponent", can you apply a painful lock or similar till he gives up or quietens down?

In a situation as you might face, you will need to keep your cool and don't give into being cruel or unnecessary tough.

To be honest I don't think that there are many people that can do a job like warden in a situation like yours, I know I couldn't.

If you have ANY doubts about your abilites in the current situation I would go with Rogue's advise and look for a new line of work.

Oso

07-14-2003, 07:58 PM

yea, since he done went and said it, I'd have to agree with rogue as well.

good luck.

Becca

07-14-2003, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Xebsball
Aikido (i heard some bouncers use it) and maybe BJJ might be good to control them with jointlocks without doing damage

Tai Chi is good, but it is very very very very hard to find people who teach it with its full martial capacity, mostly its taught "for health"

Aikido can do alot of joint damage if they struggle, and anyone she would be using it on probably would struggle.

My mother is about 4'11" and weighs 105 lbs. She was a CNA on a psych ward for many years before getting her degree in Occupational Thearapy. She used a Korean form of Kempo taught in Westminster, Co to control the residents who needed restrained. The elderly get skin tears very easily and they need to be restrained carefully to prevent this. My mom never had any problem with causing skin tears using Kempo techniques. She used those same techniques on my brother once when he had a bad psych reaction to some dipsh!t drug he tried, and he's 5'11" and 185 lbs.

Most good teachers of Kempo and Tai Chi know the applications for what they teach, they just don't teach it in open class. You need to tell them what you are wanting it for, and ask them to help you achieve your goals.

I know that the martial form of Tai Chi is often referred to as Tai Chi Ch'uan, and was out-lawed in China for being too deadly. This form of the art has one purpous and that is to kill. That is why it isn't openly taught. But there are adaptations that can be used to controll a hostile person whithout causing harm. You may need to take private lesson to learn them, though.

Laughing Cow

07-14-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Becca

I know that the martial form of Tai Chi is often referred to as Tai Chi Ch'uan, and was out-lawed in China for being too deadly. This form of the art has one purpous and that is to kill. That is why it isn't openly taught.

Huh, come again. :confused:

What you say does not mesh with what my Sifu sez about it.

T'ai Chi is a wrong short version of T'ai Chi Chuan.

AFAIK, it was NEVER outlawed in it's 300yr history and as far as the sole purpose of it ....

Granted it is hard to find a good teacher.

Cheers.

Becca

07-14-2003, 09:44 PM

... As told to me by one Mr. Hon, a noted Tai Chi instructor in the Metro Denver area. Don't remember the name of the place, though. He specializes in working with out-of-controll youths. My parents put my kid brother in his class after the afore mentioned psycho insident. I went to talk to him since my folks weren't aware that "that bad teacher in Karate Kid" is a reality in the MA world. My dad ended up studying there as well after that conversation. My mom studied Kempo from an associat of his by his recomendation. He felt that Kempo would suit what she needed it for better.

T'ai Chi is a wrong short version of T'ai Chi Chuan.
Hon said that they shortened and adapted it for strictly health purpouses spacifically to keep the Chinese Government from banning it all together.

Serpent

07-14-2003, 09:45 PM

Tai Chi was never outlawed in China. Someone's been spinning some yarns.

No art is too deadly. All arts are potentially deadly. I could kill you with a newspaper, but that doesn't mean any government will ban them.

Angie327

07-14-2003, 09:46 PM

The styles I found in this area are Tae kwoon do,jeet kun do, white brow kung fu/tai chi and akido.

rogue,thank you for being open but I don't quit that easy.

Laughing Cow

07-14-2003, 09:51 PM

Hi.

You are talking about Mew Hong Tan (http://www.denver-taichi.com/info.php) I would assume.

FYI, Yang TJQ was taught to the Imperial Body guards by Yang Lu Chan the founder of yang TJQ, he learned his art from the Chen village which is the style I study.

The TJQ I learn is still taught as a MA including the weapons and other things.

Things are simply taught when you are ready for them, nothing hidden or secret there.

Cheers.

Yung Apprentice

07-14-2003, 10:14 PM

Whitebrow? As in Bak Mei? Thats pretty bad @ss stuff. Take a look at either Akido, JKD, or the Whitebrow. Screw TKD, it's hard to find good TKD. Hapkido also would be good, if they had it. Basically it's Akido, with better strikes.

Angie- There are usually more schools then shown in the phone book. Try typing a search for some of the styles listed, and your city in the same search, there might be more schools then you thought. When I did that, there were a couple websites that had different cities and the schools in those cities.

Visit those three schools, more then once if necissary, to see which is serious about self defense, and isn't an "MCDOJO".

For your frame, I wouldn't reccomend a striking art. Train hard, and never get the mentality that you are invincible because you train in Martial Arts, thats a very dangerous attitude to carry, especially in your line of work.

Good luck.

kungfuyou

07-14-2003, 11:02 PM

Are any of these close to you? (http://www.dragonslist.com/schools/advancedsearch.php?schoolname=&schooladdress=&schoolcity=&schoolstate=Tennesse&schoolcountry=USA&schoolcontact=&schoolsite=&schoolstyle=&action=Search)

taijiquan_student

07-15-2003, 12:28 AM

Hon doesn't know what he's talking about.

Except, it was true that during the Qing dynasty, martial arts were made illegal by two imperial decrees. Of course many people still practiced, but it was nevertheless illegal for the people to practice martial arts.

No_Know

07-15-2003, 01:56 AM

Chattanooga schools (http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?srch=105&FORM=AS5&q=Chattanooga+Tennessee+kung+fu).

Whatever Kung-Fu you think about getting into, you might should request to have a Chin-Na (cheen-nahh) based or centered training. Or that you wnder if you could learn just chin-na.

Chin-Na is a term that refers to techniques that seize and control. It is not a style. It is more a skill various kung-fus have in them.

this has partial explainations for some things kung-fu (http://www.goldeneaglemac.com/page6.shtml)

a book to consider (http://www.yin-yangstore.com/shaolinchinna.htm)

Ying Jow Pai Eagle claw grand master Lily Lau (eighth generation) seems the best kung-fu to take over all. But if you could get jus Chin-Na based, that is likely best for you at work.

of your choices I strongly recommend only One school at a time. Of the schools in your area I think Aikido is supremely best for your would like.

Becca

07-15-2003, 05:49 AM

So you guys are telling me that he's lieing? he didn't strike me as that type of person, and I've done some reading that indicated that the Communists did rewrite history to suite them. Maybe his version is different from yours, but that doesn't make it out-right wrong. Pardon me for trusting a real person over people I only know on-line.

Laughing Cow

07-15-2003, 06:17 AM

Becca.

I don't know him, if he is the guy on the web-site than this and your statement is all I got to go by.

OTOH, what you relayed does not mesh with the available information in regards to TJQ.

TJQ history since Chen Wang Ting(1600~1680) has been pretty well documented.

Even more records exist since Yang Lu Chan (1799~1873), there are also many old manuals and songs that are publicly available describing the arts.
Granted a lot is still reserved for senior students, also there are a few styles and information being slowly reveiled.

I have a lineage chart that covers all 5 major styles.

There are many high-level practicioners of multiple TJQ styles easily accessable via KFO and many other boards/forums.

I am not questioning his skill or knowledge, but the info you relayed is not consistent with the available info on TJQ.

He might be a great teacher that specialises on the health side and reserves the martial teaching to a selected few students, but this does not make it the norm.
Nor do I think that he can speak for all styles.

Cheers.

SaMantis

07-15-2003, 06:38 AM

Hi Becca,

The information you have seems fragmented rather than false. Not saying the instructor is a liar at all, just that you have a "short version" of tai chi history. Maybe he just gave a quick explanation of it.

1. Tai Chi Chu'an = Supreme Ultimate Fist (literal translation); Tai Chi is just the common vernacular, much like every Chinese MA is called "Kung Fu" (hard work) rather than "Kuoshu/Wushu" (martial art). No secrets there.

2. As Serpent said, all arts are potentially deadly. IME there are no "secret" applications in TC, just a number of variations in each seemingly simple movement. Which are lots of fun to study and discover.

3.
Hon said that they shortened and adapted it for strictly health purpouses spacifically to keep the Chinese Government from banning it all together.
This is pretty much correct re: the PRC. The development of contemporary wushu provided a way to preserve the martial arts of China without risking imprisonment/execution for treason (although this happened sometimes, anyway). In the case of Tai Chi Chuan, many effective forms were combined into government-approved forms i.e. 42- or 24-movement forms, etc.
However (Exception 2-1.210), there are still traditional masters in the PRC who survived strife, hunger and government restriction and who still teach their traditional art outside the regulated system, albeit to fewer students.

Angie327

07-15-2003, 06:45 AM

Thank you all for the help,I'm sure I'll be asking more questions,I found a kung-fu style school that has White eyebrow/Bai mei,would that be a good one for the street or my job?

It sounds like I will need chinna training.

The self defense course taught "break away tatics",they only want you to control the attacker when there is more than one tech,if you're on your own your supposed to "break away"
which is what the guy did when he got beat up,he broke away only to get jumped from behind:(

red5angel

07-15-2003, 07:07 AM

Angie, sometimes it's not the program but the person as well. I have always had an issue with self defense programs because they aren't consistant. I have also always been a proponent of better Hand to Hand training for law enforcement officers and corrections officers. Ideally these people should put atleast a few days in a week, a couple of hours each day working on their skill set because it could save their life.

No_Know

07-15-2003, 08:24 AM

If the co-worker did the break away but got caught from behind, then learn from that and think about ways to turn around. Ways to turn and duck and step to the side and forward (and turn again). Ways to turn while moving away so that you are moving backwards. Perhaps including a distancing strike such as pausing to stomp at the approaching person and pushing off of person with your foot~. Ways to turn around and roll backwards (and to a side). Ways to turn around and drop...

I No_Know

rogue

07-15-2003, 08:56 AM

No_know and Red beat me to it, so I agree with what they said. The system worked your friend just didn't know how to retreat.

Angie before picking a fighting system sit down and review what the rules are for using force on your job. Bak Mei has a reputation for being a very nasty system and may not fit into what you can use. Hell even using basic TKD on an inmate may get you fired and get the hospital sued. So with your list of requirments in hand interview any potential instructors to see if they fill the bill. You'll also want to find something that teaches team tactics. My wife used be in charge of hiring at a psych hospital and she would always try to get members of the Virginia Union football team as staff and I've seen three of those monsters have trouble with a sixteen year old girl who found out she wasn't just visiting a friend in the hospital.

Good luck and lift weights.

HuangKaiVun

07-15-2003, 02:19 PM

If you can, Angie, find yourself somebody who's been associated with the US Military.

Marines, Special Ops, Navy Seals - those guys have a lot of practical knowledge.

Also see if you can talk to some of the older members of your staff. Chances are that they have a ton of knowledge gleaned from years of experience.

MatT3T4

07-15-2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Becca
Tai Chi and Kempo are two excelent choices.

I am currently studying Kempo. Of all of the martial arts I have studied, Kempo is probably the most all-encompassing. I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, American Kenpo, Kodokan Judo, and Shorin-ji Kajubo Kempo. In Kempo, every action you take is a strike. When you block something, you block it with a counter strike. Everything has a purpose. You aren't just throwing someone past you, you are striking them as you are thowing them past you. I am currently testing for a correctional position right now, and Kempo would have a GREAT effectiveness in that setting.

Black Jack

07-15-2003, 02:36 PM

Don't bother with Aikido. It is just not practical.

Go for something simple and that you can remeber to execute under pressure. Jun Fan is good stuff, so is boxing, savate, old school judo or karate, goshin ryu jujitsu, thai boxing, panatuken....just some rough ideas but remeber it is the mostly the man and not the method.

Just don't waist your time with watered down aiki jujitsu unless you want to totally waist your time for your stated goal.

ZIM

07-15-2003, 03:07 PM

At this point, we could go on with various pieces of advice and comment, but it comes down to one thing now that you've found some schools:

Visit the school, tell us what you thought. If necessary, repeat.

FWLIW, White Eyebrow is a well-respected system, not to be taken [or taken up] lightly.

And 2- the usual training given to social workers is not enough. Most of the best crisis-junkies I've worked with either took MAs or got in good with law enforcement officers and trained with them.

Good Luck!

Becca

07-15-2003, 09:41 PM

Aww, Zim! We were having fun debating the merrits of one style over another for the billionth time!:mad: :D

Nor do I think that he can speak for all styles.
Can You?

SaMantis- I thing I did just get the abridged version. He knew I had no interest in studying it for myself. I just wanted to be sure he was a good instructor for my baby brother.

And Black Jack was right, don't bother with Aiki Jujits. It is just a waste of time.

Laughing Cow

07-15-2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Becca

Can You?

No.

But I can relate the info I have got from different people, manuscripts and other sources about different styles.

If there is a common denominator from multiple sources than the likelyhood of it being accurate is high, especially when the Info is the same as coming from lineageholder and family members of the styles.

Cheers.

Yung Apprentice

07-15-2003, 11:59 PM

Well, as far as rules and abiding by the law, that should go out the window if your life is being threatened. I'm not saying, to be in a hurry to strike or use unlawfull tactics, but if it is necissary, then do it. I would suggest not getting into a a striking art, because of your build. But if you do decide, then definaetely try the JKD, or Bak Mei. Like ppl were saying, Bak Mei has a rep for being hard core. (but as with any style that also depends on the school)

Try to find the best school. If it seems that there are some very good schools, and you can't decide between, then maybe we can talk about which style might suit you better, or which style would work better in your line of work. But it should always come down to the school, and it's instruction, and then maybe the style.

BTW, Angie, have you visited any schools, yet?

Black Jack

07-16-2003, 08:06 AM

Actually I was in reference to Aikido being watered down daito ryu aiki jujitsu. Hard aiki can be some real good stuff if you find the right school and teacher that focuses on the striking aspect of the system as much as the compound locking.

My advice don't over focus on joint locks/chin na. As a beginner find a striking style that focuses on forward drive and power. If that style has a few combat chokes, throws, holds, and backup locks then even better but get your striking down first.

Learn to hit hard.

Cheers.

TonyM.

07-16-2003, 08:52 AM

Angie327

07-16-2003, 06:25 PM

This is the kung fu school I found in this area,does anyone here know if this style has joint locks?

Theres not that much info on the page that would give a lay person any idea of whats in the style

http://www.dryqwong.com/

ZIM

07-16-2003, 06:39 PM

Here is a brief description, comparison to wing chun (http://www.chongskungfu.com/whiteeye.html)

some video links here. haven't looked at them yet. (http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/tech1.htm)

Chang Style Novice

07-16-2003, 06:48 PM

Context is important. Oftimes, it's the most important thing.

rogue

07-16-2003, 07:47 PM

If this is what it teaches it looks like a great place to learn parlor tricks. Angie, it sounds like you need something practical and need to learn it quick, so I say pass on the Bai Mei. Check out the local universities for martial arts clubs, some are quite good. More usable styles are Judo and BJJ which could be handy when running isn't in the plan.

The external sets and the internal sets make up the whole White Eyebrow training program. Weapons are considered the extension of bare-hand/open hand training. After students have succeeded in mastering all the internal and external sets, they should exhibit a unified body, which is supported by their inner structural tensions. In White Eyebrow terms, they show indication of their six powers simultaneously at work. After this stage of competency, they will be taught the guarded Shaolin meditations/internal breathing methods to enhance their mental readiness for the ultimate development of power of tremor, a unique feature of high level White Eyebrow training. Maybe they teach the Venus Butterfly too! :eek: Did I miss the part where they say, "and we free spar as often as possible"?

Rich Mooney Laughs at this. (http://www.dryqwong.com/kungfu/photos.shtml)

Knifefighter

07-16-2003, 08:02 PM

Angie:
See if there is a mixed martial arts facility near you that trains for competitions (you might try posting on http://www.mma.tv to see if someone knows of one by you). Train for the next six months like you are going to enter a competition- or, even better, actually enter one or two. By the end of that time, you'll be able to hand most of those kids their a$$es by whatever means you deem necessary whether it be striking, control hold-downs, or joint locks.

No_Know

07-16-2003, 08:10 PM

I asked where was chin-na in his teachings. I await the response from Him.

Chang Style Novice

07-16-2003, 08:17 PM

I don't think any usual sort of martial art training is going to be the most applicable thing for Angie's work. She needs to control the kids without damaging them, so only a regimen that focusses on that particularly will be good for her. I imagine that a law enforcement seminar would be appropriate, since cops have basically the same goals (win the fight, avoid brutality charges.) Why not contact the local PD and ask?

rogue

07-16-2003, 08:24 PM

Why not contact the local PD and ask? That's what I said!

tnwingtsun

07-16-2003, 08:33 PM

I trained at this school long enough to tell you that parlor tricks are not taught there.

The web site was put up by a student showing the demo of the "power of tremor" which boils down to nothing but very good sensitivity,which is a skill that can come in very handy.

Too bad they don't show the good things taught at that school and its only natural that people who have never trained there get the wrong impression from those demos,but I don't think that Dr.Wong really gives a hoot whats thought of him,he's very skillful and you could learn alot,Bai Mei has very effective striking,trapping,kicks and joint locks.

If you want to get a better idea of whats taught there and about the system,Sifu Gary Hearfield's Yau Kung Mun(a sister system of Bai Mei) web site has films of drills and training that are very close to what is taught at Dr Wong's Bai Mei school.

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/technique_workshop.htm

Chang Style Novice

07-16-2003, 08:43 PM

Great minds think alike, Rouge. You and I do too, though.

tnwingtsun

07-16-2003, 08:46 PM

>Why not contact the local PD and ask?<

The Capt. of CPD's SWAT team was one of my sparring partners
at that Bai Mei school.

The bad thing about focusing on BJJ is if you go down and you've got three bad guys on you your fuced!!

BJJ is a great system but I don't think(I may be wrong) that dealing with multiple attackers is big on their list.

Dealing with multiple attackers HAS to be big on your list.

tnwingtsun

07-16-2003, 08:50 PM

I trained at this school long enough to tell you that porlor tricks is the last thing that is taught there.

The web site was put up by a student showing the demo of the "power of tremor" which boils down to nothing but very good sensitivity,which is a skill that can come in very handy.

Too bad they don't show the good things taught at that school and its only natural that people who have never trained there get the wrong impression from those demos,but I don't think that Dr.Wong really gives a hoot whats thought of him,he's very skillful and you could learn alot,Bai Mei has very effective striking,trapping,kicks and joint locks.

If you want to get a better idea of whats taught there and about the system,Sifu Gary Hearfield's Yau Kung Mun(a sister system of Bai Mei) web site has films of drills and training that are very close to what is taught at Dr Wong's Bai Mei school.

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/technique_workshop.htm

Knifefighter

07-16-2003, 08:55 PM

Angie:
Here's another, maybe easier and more applicable suggestion that you might consider. You might see if you can find a BJJ black or brown belt in your area and take some privates with him to learn how to do carotid chokes. He will be able to teach you a wide variety of these that can be done from almost any position, using your clothing, the attacker's clothing, or just with your bare arms. If learned correctly, these chokes can be done safely with no risk of after-effects and no evidence that you've even done them.

You can put your attacker to sleep and render him completely harmless, thus allowing you the opportunity to get out of harm's way.

I'm not sure about this, and only Angie could answer this for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that her biggest risk for attack is when she is alone one-on-one with one of these kids.

Shaolin-Do

07-16-2003, 09:30 PM

Any sort of private lessons from a competent judo, bjj, possibly aikido instructors could be very benificial...

tnwingtsun

07-16-2003, 09:47 PM

Becca

07-16-2003, 09:58 PM

Hey tnwingtsun- how many times you gonna repost that?:D

Yung Apprentice

07-16-2003, 11:02 PM

Remember that she's working with youths. I can guarantee that the first time she uses a striking art on a youth, on the job, will be her last day on the job and possibly her last day of freedom for a little while.
\
So, if her life is at stake, your saying she shouldn't strike them?:confused:

Hey tnwingtsun- how many times you gonna repost that?

I was thinking the same thing!:p

Angie, physically visit the schools. The Akido, JKD, and Bai Mei. Then tell us what you thought of their training. Other people had some good suggestions, such as the law enforcement seminar, or finding someone knowledgable in BJJ, or judo. Or the suggestion of the MMA. But, I think training as soon as you can would be the thing. My suggestion is, as soon as you can, visit the three schools forementioned. See which is most into training, and combat, and go with it. (after visiting all three) You might want to call ahead and ask about class schedules, so that you can visit them, when you can.

Laughing Cow

07-16-2003, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice

\
So, if her life is at stake, your saying she shouldn't strike them?:confused:

Not every attack/confrontation equals a life/death situation.

Unless you step into the ring and your opponent tries to kill you.
:D

Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Kodiack

07-16-2003, 11:07 PM

Hi! As I read through the posts on this topic I noticed that most of the answers dealt with what type of MA to take our use such situations. I don't think that simply taking a MA...any MA is the complete answer to her question.
What needs to be addressed is the tactics you and your co-workers use when dealing with violent or potentually violent subjects. Good tactics will go a long way in dealing with these situations.
First, never try and deal with violent or potentally violent subjects alone. You should always use the "contact and cover" approach. One person acts as the contact..does the talking and directing of the subject. The other person stands to the rear or off to the side acting as guard in case the subject becomes violent.
Second, there is strength in numbers. If you are dealing with one violent subject then two or more persons should be brought in to control him/her. The general rule is always have one more person on your side than the total number of persons you are dealing with.
Police Officers routinely use these and other tactics when dealing with violent persons. I suggest you contact the Police Department in your area and talk to one of their Officer Safety instructors about the situation. They can give you some good suggestions as to what type of tactics to use. A review of your organizations use of force policy may also be in order to help prevent things like this from occuring again.
FYI-I've been a cop for 17 years and spent 2 years as a Use of Force and Officer Safety instructor at our Academy. I've dealt with a lot of violent persons.

tnwingtsun

07-17-2003, 02:16 AM

srry bout the multipal posts:confused:

Merryprankster

07-17-2003, 04:03 AM

Angie,

I'm biased towards the grappling arts, but I believe they offer you what you are looking for:

1. Ways to restrain an individual without harming them too much.

2. At 110 lbs a larger person intent on hurting you is likely going to close the gap to use their strength and weight advantage against you--they'll try to smother you and crash you around. In grappling, you will learn to counter/escape this type of attack very well.

3. Ways escape if you wind up on the ground. In a one on one with a big guy intent on smashing you, guess where you are likely to wind up? Judo or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu will offer you some excellent opportunities to learn to reverse position and maintain positive control of your opponent.

4. Chokes work regardless of size. It's going to be hard for you to strike hard enough to seriously dissuade a 200 lbs attacker bent on your destruction. While there is some truth to the statement, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall," generally it is also true that "the bigger they are, the harder they are to hurt, and the more punishment they can absorb and dish out." I'm thinking larger here, not Fatty McFatback. It's not easy to land a flush shot--4 truly flush shots in 6 min of amateur boxing is doing pretty good. However, a choke...well, size definitely doesn't matter for that--course you gotta learn to get there....but see #2 and #3.

I am not knocking striking intensive, primarily stand-up arts. They are fantastic for learning to defend yourself, and I highly recommend any well-taught striking art to anybody looking for serious self-defense. But your situation is different and more analagous to that of a law enforcement officer--even if you are attacked, your job is to disable the person with absolutely the minimum level of force required. You can be in real trouble if somebody gets hurt or feigns serious injury. Nothing like a liability suit to ruin your day.

However, one word on chokes--some states have outlawed their use in "restraint" scenarios, so that segment may be moot.

Secondly, listen to Kodiak. Don't go one-on-one if you can help it!

StickyHands

07-17-2003, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by tnwingtsun

BJJ is a great system but I don't think(I may be wrong) that dealing with multiple attackers is big on their list.

Dealing with multiple attackers HAS to be big on your list.

Is that a fact or remotely true?

Becca

07-17-2003, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
srry bout the multipal posts:confused:
S'Ok. We all do it from time to time. I was just the smart@ss who commented on it first.;) :D

Kodiak- Not every situation can be delt with like that in a situation like that. Cops usually respond in pairs. Institutions like Angie's are usually a bit understaffed. They can't always have two peolpe go everywhere together. And that is what they'd have to do to avoid all incidents.

Haveing good situational awareness will help. That could be the #1 most usefull skill Angie, or anyone else, will get from Martial Arts study. From the sound of it, good situational awarenss was missing in her co-worker's mishap, and was the one thing that would have kept it from happening in the first place. That's an easy mistake to make. :(

David Jamieson

07-17-2003, 06:36 AM

if you are working in an institutional setting and need to protect yourself and control your charges or wards I would not recommend jumping into a striking predominant art.

You'll just get more hassle than it's worth.

If you are going to study a form of Kungfu, study with someone who can teach you Chin Na (locks, siezing, holding).

Chin Na is a seperate piece of raining although it's techs can be found in some styles sets.

If you have an Aikido school near you, that would likely be your best bet. Aikido is all about having control without causing damage (for the most part :D)

Being small is what is most at issue. Frankly, kids are not intimidated by someone of small stature, especially criminal kids. it's because they have no life experience and no exposure to the broader world and don't comprehend that a diminutive person can weild power. They are more frightened of a behemothic person even if the big guy knows nothing! Sheer size intimidates people this way.

Remember always that no matter who you are, you are NOT invincible and you can at any given time be defeated even if you've trained for 50 years! That is the reality and the bitter of martial study. Someone, anyone, could take you out just like that. If you adhere to that thought, you will be more careful always and you will not let your own ego lead you astray with delusionary thoughts about life and reality. The training will only be augmented in practice by your own sense of humility.

cheers

SaMantis

07-17-2003, 06:57 AM

tnwingtsun,

Checked out the link to Dr. Wong's school -- I remember that demo! (St. Petersburg 2001) From the masters' demo at the end of the tournament.

Was it real or not? Probably not -- I've seen similar "chi-power" demos, but these were also put on by reputable masters so it really doesn't mark him as a fraud.

What I also remember from the tournament was his students cleaning up in the push hands categories.

rogue

07-17-2003, 08:13 AM

Was it real or not? Probably not -- I've seen similar "chi-power" demos, but these were also put on by reputable masters so it really doesn't mark him as a fraud. :eek: If someone does demos using an imaginary power and teaches classes in that imaginary power and does so as if that imaginary power is something real, that makes him what then?

SaMantis

07-17-2003, 10:30 AM

If someone does demos using an imaginary power and teaches classes in that imaginary power and does so as if that imaginary power is something real, that makes him what then?

Imaginary, obviously. ;)

But, lemme 'splain myself a bit more. You can go to just about any masters' demo at any tournament and there will be a master (or two) demonstrating different aspects of chi, such as placing 2-3 spear points at the throat and resisting until the spears bend; having a cinder block broken atop their stomach while lying on a bed of nails; etc. And there is often at least one master who will demonstrate peng energy by having a cooperative student "attack" him/her and get thrown several feet back after the instructor makes contact (note contact as opposed to Rich Mooney's "no-touch" chi kung).

Real? In every example but the last, it's as real as good skill and the laws of physics will take them. In the last example, it's hard to prove because the demos I've seen have always been with one or more of the master's students rather than an unknown audience member.

So what I'm saying is: It's entirely possible for a sifu to know how to do "parlor tricks" and train good fighters as well. Whether the sifu is telling the students that his "chi" is real or not, is really up to him to say, or them to decide. If he's BS, they'll leave eventually.

StickyHands

07-17-2003, 10:47 AM

:mad: HMPH! HULK NOW GRUMPY, THEN HULK GET MAD! CAN HULK USE BJJ FOR MANY OPPONENTS OR ONLY ONE PUNY MAN AT A TIME? DONT MAKE HULK ANGRY, YOU WONT LIKE HULK WHEN HE GET ANGRY! HULK TURN INTO ROYCE GRACIE! LOL.

Kodiack

07-17-2003, 01:24 PM

Becca,
While its true that most cops work in pairs very often they arrive at a potentually violent situations alone. We are trained to wait for our cover officer before entering the situation. Of course if the situation is extreme IE-someone is getting killed or seriously hurt the officer may have to go it alone until help arrives, but generally we like to maintain a numerical advantage.
One thing to remember is that generally time is on the officers side. There is no need to rush into a violent situation. By taking a little time before moving in to plan and approach safely you can often avoid injuries to yourself and to the persons you are dealing with. Most officer injuries/deaths can be traced back to an error in tactics or safety procedures (there are exceptions to this statement, thats why I said "most")
In Angie's case a policy of doing room checks and other activities in pairs is a good idea. One, it will help reduce potentially violent situations and injuries. Second it helps to avoid civil litigation related to misconduct (sexual, use of force etc..) since you will always have a witness to your activities when dealing with subjects.
I think that the answer to Angies situation lies not in what MA to train (Although I think she should train in something) but in the tactics and policies her organization uses when dealing with violent/potentually violent persons. IMO humans became the dominate species, because of our ability to plan and think, not because of our size and strength. Brains beats brawn in most situations.

tnwingtsun

07-17-2003, 05:02 PM

>If someone does demos using an imaginary power and teaches classes in that imaginary power and does so as if that imaginary power is something real, that makes him what then?<

LOL,

I've never heard him once say that was "chi force",I've heard him say many times that he was "bouncing" people off",which is what it feels like,if you don't use foward force or comment then he cannot bounce you off IF he stays where he's at,if you move towards him he is very skilled in being able to feel in a split second where your balance is and manipulate it.
Its almost like putting your weight on a door only to find theres nobody holding it shut,being able to apply that against someone that is punching,kicking and trying to get ahold of you works very well,is this taught at first?No but the grabbing and jerking that is the foundation for this skill is taught from the beginning

I'm suprised that people who practice kung fu would recomend
Akido,lol,the guy that teaches akido has gone over to Dr.Wong for lessions,Bai mei has a large amount of chin-na.

Laughing Cow

07-17-2003, 05:23 PM

tnwingtsun.

I don't go much by teacher X now studies under Teacher Y.
There can be a multitude of reasons for that.

Nor do I go by statements like style Z does not contain this or that because I haven't seen them doing it.

Here is a perfect example:
A friend of mine decided to go to Japan to study Kendo, he was refered to a school that teaches the Cops.

First sparring session he got punched, taken down, etc.
Whne he asked why they have non-kendo stuff in it, he was told that people in the west don't practice the FULL kendo curriculum.

And this I think holds true for most other MA out there too.

Cheers.