Captain Dr John Painter PhD, ND, etc, etc [Archive]

PHILBERT

07-16-2003, 07:01 PM

Yeah Golden, Ive seen the archives and read some other topics about him, and seen his site and those unique photos. Ok, so the dude has a questionable history, so freaking what? So do Wing Chun, Southern Mantis and Shuai Chiao practioners. Wing Chun probably top dog in lineage wars. I actually read a review for a Yip Chun book on Amazon.com, the stupid reviewer gave it 2 stars and said ALL all Yip Man students suck because it isn't true Wing Chun. WTF?

Geez, ok so lineage is questionable, so freaking what? If you can dish out the goods, get the forms, learn to fight and know what you are doing, who cares if your Sifu learned from Grandmaster Leung Ting or some guy named Billy Bob who was a 45 year old bag boy at a neighborhood supermarket who learned it from some guy, from another guy, from some other dude, then from another guy who had met Leung Ting.

Ok I managed to find it,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877287961/qid=1058406966/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6218965-1272703

Scroll down the reviews, its the guy who gave it 2 stars, from Kennesaw, GA. He wrote

The technique demonstrated by Yip Chun is sloppy at best (like all students of the Yip Man branch of Wing Chun).

Me, I'd go and meet Dr Painter with my friend, talk to him about Bagua, watch a class with my friend, etc and let him talk to my friend. I'm happy with Wing Chun, its where I am and I don't plan on quitting.

I've actually seen Dr Painter before, I was at the restaurant I (used to, I just quit like yesterday though they dont know it yet) work at and I was off, and was up there talking to my coworkers cause I had nothing better to do. Anyway, Im up there and I look over and who do I see but Dr Painter himself. I would put $$ it was him, he was sitting there with his wife eating chips and salsa, and I was incredibly tempted to run over and introduce myself, I wasn't in uniform, but I thought to myself "No, the guy is eating dinner and it would be rude to run up and pester him" so I walked off.

PHILBERT

07-16-2003, 07:05 PM

Sorry count, I'll stick to Wing Chun. When I left Wing Tsun, I was considering on taking up Bagua or Hsing-I from him, then I remembered there was a [well known] Sifu in my area who did Wing Chun so I went over to his school and started there. I've come too far in Wing Tsun to just quit and go on to something else. I don't like quitting something I like.

kungfu cowboy

07-17-2003, 05:09 AM

No lineage may not necessarily matter, but honesty usually does. (Generally though, lineage will give you some idea as to the quality)

Kymus

07-17-2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by count
Philbert,
sounds like your friend need my teacher LOL. But come on, "One Mile" I could sprint there and back after working out.

BlackJack, I have never heard John Painter say anything about empty force or moving people without touching them. That would be laughable. But don't believe everything you see on the web. Even if it were on his website, he has someone elso do that for him. Tell me where you saw that (link) and I will give him a call. I'm quite sure that won't be there long. LOL Painter is pretty practical with his stuff. That's why police agencies hire him to teach all the time. But hey, he's not even my teacher so I'm not going to defend him, but he is a friend and I'm sure he would take my advice about silly claims of moving people without touching them on his website.

It's said that Advanced Hsing I practictioners can move people with out touching them. I think I've heard Dr. Painter is capable of doing the same (and I heard that from people who have trained with him or learned from him)

Black Jack

07-17-2003, 09:13 AM

Unless I was wasted on mexican beer I am almost 100% postive that I have seen two articles...one to be sure either in BB or ISKF....that shows him using empty force on his attackers.

I think I have the rag around my pad somewhere. It showed him in person doing his "empty force" where the attacker was being thrown down like a puppet on a string. He may be a nice gent and all but he has to make money like everybody else and nothing makes money better than the "man on the mountain secrets" if you know what I mean.

Kinda like that systema psyche energy nonsense.

Let me see if I can find the exact article. Cheers.

count

07-17-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Kymus
It's said that Advanced Hsing I practictioners can move people with out touching them. I think I've heard Dr. Painter is capable of doing the same (and I heard that from people who have trained with him or learned from him)
:eek: :rolleyes: :D

ewallace

07-17-2003, 10:01 AM

I can move people without touching them. Pretty much anyone with a rock and good aim can as well.

Black Jack

07-17-2003, 10:16 AM

My dog can do it when he passes gas. Maybe I should do a article about him and his martial abilities for Inside Kung Fu.

I bet my great uncles third nut "wilber" that I could get people to purchase instructional tapes on the art form.

Dale Dugas

07-17-2003, 10:39 AM

He did have an article a while back on using fa-jing. It showed him posting and then pulsing his partner up and away from him.

Is this the article you are talking about?? It was in IKF.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

The Willow Sword

07-17-2003, 10:52 AM

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/downloads.htm

from what i can see the "walking" that he is doing doesnt represent the type of bagua stepping i have seen,,been taught and practice(and not the sd bagua either). looks half a$$ed if you ask me.

what are your opinions on this vid? ill bet Black Taoist would have a thing or two to say about it.
TWS

Black Jack

07-17-2003, 11:12 AM

Yeah Dale that be the one.

Can we all say horse sh!t together. I wonder if Yoda taught him that trick. The amount of people who believe in mystical martial nonsense is staggering.

PHILBERT

07-17-2003, 11:14 AM

Aye, but again, while honesty is nice and all that, I doubt every Wing Chun Grandmaster is the true inheritor of Wing Chun.

Now I am NOT questioning skills here, just saying...

We got Grandmaster Leung Ting of the Wing Tsun style, which is copyrighted. He says he is the inheritor of the one true Wing Tsun.

We got Grandmaster William Cheung of the Traditional Wing Chun style, he says he is the one true Wing Chun.

We got Grandmaster Yip Chun and Yip Cheng (is that right?) who are the sons of Yip Man. They claim to be the one true Ving Tsun.

Now we got 3 different spellings, 3 different guys (4 if you count the brothers), all who say the others are fake, and you see I do Wing Chun and wonder if I care about lineage wars? Not really. I do Wing Chun, I don't care what some idiot who trolls on the internet says, I do Wing Chun, I know it is Wing Chun and I know I can use Wing Chun. I am sure there are other people out there with as much experiance as me who do Wing Chun that would woop my butt, and I respect them for that. I however do not respect Internet Warriors who talk the talk and trash others.

Ray Pina

07-17-2003, 11:18 AM

My focus is on Hsing-I right now. And I'm not into these "bashing a name" post.

As one martial artist who has been tought a little Ba Gua noticing the walking of another martial artist, there was one thing I noticed: There seams to be a lot of heal-to toe walking, in that his weight is coming down on his heal.

Anyway though, seems like once you have a name everyone wants to come down on ya so I wish the guy the best. I read his bio and the guy claims to have been shot and stabbed a few times while doing some hardcore bodyguarding ... that certainly seems man enough to me.

Ralphie

07-17-2003, 11:18 AM

Black Jack

07-17-2003, 11:32 AM

Evolution-

No its not about having a "name". Its about trying to sell bullsh!t to the general public as fact. You can be the elite bodyguard to whoever but that does NOT take away the fact that you are telling people they can defend themselves from violent predators with your mind waves.

When you start with one lie when does it come to an end?

The Willow Sword

07-17-2003, 11:58 AM

Actually Willow, he is just adding different ba gua footwork and palm changes into his routine, which is common and not high level ba gua stuff. For example the guy used toe in-toe out stepping and half stepping as well as a little 4 corners to boot. I don't know the guy, and don't know his claims, but from that low quality vid, it looks like he was trained properly.

uhhh actually Ralphie his stepping is half a$$ed,,bagua stepping is not heel to toe and look at his posture. he is practically coming up off the ground. doesnt look like he has any root whatsoever. if you are going to post a vid on your work it had better be of better quality and also you are showing this to possible students. if i were a beginner looking for a school and i came across that vid i would pass on it. Not that you have to show anything real spectatcular but you have to at least show something better than what Painter is trying to show in that vid.

sorry ralphie i disagree with you,,the vid is crap.

Lao_Peng_You

07-17-2003, 12:51 PM

Willow,

As a friendly debate, and not to criticize, I think you're closing yourself off to the wider spectrum of Ba Gua. There is, as I know it, Serpent Stepping, which is where you place the foot down and slide as you advance. However, there is also lion stepping, which is where you roll from heal to toe, I found this link which shows this somewhat: http://www.blacktaoist.com/Original%20form%20Ba%20Gua.html i don't know these folks either, but you mentioned them in an earlier post, so I suspect you respect them.

There are more stepping patterns than just walking in a circle in ba gua. For example, advancing or retreating in ba gua usually employs the use of a half step with the lead leg (advancing) or the rear leg (retreating) before taking a full step. The jpeg this guy uses does suck, and I too can't tell if he is not good or the vid is of so low quality that you can't get a good feel for what he is trying to do. However, he is employing a full range of common ba gua stepping techniques.

Again, just as a point, what is your familiarity with these types of things?

The Willow Sword

07-17-2003, 01:06 PM

i am not closing myself off to the "wider spectrum" of bagua. im just closing myself off to john painters bagua.

yes i am all too familiar with black taoists web site.

the snake stepping is the stepping that i mainly like to do when walking the circle. but i am more of a hsing i person than bagua,,but i have learned over the years the bagua principles and i know that it is not just the walking the circle.
my familiarity with these things are always questioned by people here because i was a former SD disciple and teacher. but prior to SD and even during i still held fast to the principles taught to me by my former teacher Master nessen.(who has studied for years in hsing i bagua and taichi) he was a former disciple of dr john winglock ng. but i have no association with that school as i live in texas.

many respects,, TWS

Golden Arms

07-17-2003, 04:18 PM

Hehehe..good attitude Philbert..that part about the bag boy Billy Bob is classic ;) Honesty is good, but many times the art is just as much a part of the student as it was their teacher..so if the student dug hard and studied a lot, they get things that even their teacher would not have to tell or show them.

count

07-17-2003, 04:41 PM

I agree and than some with Lao_Peng_You. There are as many stepping methods in bagua as there are people. What method of bagua was that they teach through Shaolin Do anyway? Seems to me that seeing all the flack and bad mouthing Shaolin Do takes, you would'nt be so quick to bash Painter. I assume you have actually experienced his bagua methods first hand? If not, it would be wrong to make assumptions based on that quicky .avi. Makes more sense for people to judge these kind of things through contact and not by what other people think. ;)

The Willow Sword

07-17-2003, 04:59 PM

i find it contradictory that one cannot have an opinion and the other can based on what school they have gone to and where else they have learned. i watched the vid,,its crap(actually thats the only thing that i am "bashing". the vid sucks ,,thats my opinion. i dont doubt that Painter is an accomplished bagua teacher but the vid doesnt really show that, IN MY OPINION. i base it on what i have learned to be not crap. and since you havent been keeping up with current events,Count, i am no longer a part of the sd organization. havent been for over two years now. so dont lump me in with them anymore.

yes yes yes there are many stepping variations in bagua,,but only a few that really work, in my opinion. snake stepping being one of the few that , IN MY OPINION BASED ON WHAT I HAVE LEARNED, Works. it keeps you rooted as does the deer stepping(from 5 animal frolics).

soon i will post an mpeg of the stuff that i have been working on. it will show you the type of internal stuff that i have been into. i dont claim mastery but i do know some things. then you can make your opinions and i can be here to talk about them.

count

07-17-2003, 05:32 PM

I'm pretty up to date on the "current events" Just because I don't participate in the shaolin Do bashing doesn't mean I haven't seen your posts here and on other forums on the issues.

Actually I agree with you that finding out what works for YOU is the first step at understanding bagua. But I wouldn't presume to judge any video you post on the internet as an example of what you know or don't know. It only shows what you want to show.

On the other hand, if you showed me something in person and it worked for me the same as it worked for you, I would agree that you were going in the right direction. I would be glad to say so on a public bulletin board. Otherwise, I would just keep my opinions to myself.

The Willow Sword

07-17-2003, 05:38 PM

COUNT is THE authority on bagua here. well your highness. i wouldnt presume to show YOU anything. that would be just wasting both our times.:rolleyes:

count

07-17-2003, 05:47 PM

Not as much of a waste of time as this discussion. That's all that was happening here. An exchange of contrary opinions. Some ideas about footwork in bagua. If you prefer the Painter bashing than continue to say whatever you want. I'm done!

Kymus

07-17-2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by ewallace
I can move people without touching them. Pretty much anyone with a rock and good aim can as well.

Kymus

07-17-2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by ewallace
I can move people without touching them. Pretty much anyone with a rock and good aim can as well.

Or a good ****...

Kymus

07-17-2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Black Jack
Yeah Dale that be the one.

Can we all say horse sh!t together. I wonder if Yoda taught him that trick. The amount of people who believe in mystical martial nonsense is staggering.

You obviously know nothing about Chi Kung

Kymus

07-17-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by The Willow Sword

uhhh actually Ralphie his stepping is half a$$ed,,bagua stepping is not heel to toe and look at his posture. he is practically coming up off the ground. doesnt look like he has any root whatsoever. if you are going to post a vid on your work it had better be of better quality and also you are showing this to possible students. if i were a beginner looking for a school and i came across that vid i would pass on it. Not that you have to show anything real spectatcular but you have to at least show something better than what Painter is trying to show in that vid.

sorry ralphie i disagree with you,,the vid is crap.

For some reason I can't view the vid, but it sounds like he's doing tiger stepping. In Jiu Long Ba Gua, I believe there is Tiger, Dragon, and Pheonix stepping.

Kymus

07-17-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
i find it contradictory that one cannot have an opinion and the other can based on what school they have gone to and where else they have learned. i watched the vid,,its crap(actually thats the only thing that i am "bashing". the vid sucks ,,thats my opinion. i dont doubt that Painter is an accomplished bagua teacher but the vid doesnt really show that, IN MY OPINION. i base it on what i have learned to be not crap. and since you havent been keeping up with current events,Count, i am no longer a part of the sd organization. havent been for over two years now. so dont lump me in with them anymore.

yes yes yes there are many stepping variations in bagua,,but only a few that really work, in my opinion. snake stepping being one of the few that , IN MY OPINION BASED ON WHAT I HAVE LEARNED, Works. it keeps you rooted as does the deer stepping(from 5 animal frolics).

soon i will post an mpeg of the stuff that i have been working on. it will show you the type of internal stuff that i have been into. i dont claim mastery but i do know some things. then you can make your opinions and i can be here to talk about them.

2 things: 1: you should of speciiified that you were just speaking about the video, and did not mean anything about Dr.painter himself. Secondly, I think that part of the reason why Dr. Painter is so defended here is because is he well known for his skill. Just like Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming and Helen Liang. If it were someone that was lesser known, it may be different. What's more is that if something is more unanimous (like opinions on Shoalin Do for example), it's a little more acceptable to the general populace here.

jon

07-17-2003, 07:02 PM

Just as an opinion from another Bagua practioner (albiet lower level) I honestly think the walking is good.
Its nothing particualy spectacular or special but its also quite well executed and he obviously has good control over his body.
Sure he doesnt step the same way exactly that we do in my linage but thats also to be expected. Most Bagua linages seem to have a slightly different interpretation depending on what there trying to achieve at the time with the 'walk'.
To my knowledge the heel toe stepping is a perfectly legit stepping method, its not one i employ but ive certainly seen it before. I could be mistaken but i believe Li Zi Ming used this step reguarly and i would have a hard time listening to anyone claim his stuff was not legit.

I really feel sorry for Dr Painter, when ever his name comes up people start talking about how what he does is not 'legit', then in the same sentence always make a comment about the fact that he can still apply it.

After all the fuss and what not about Dr Painter, even looking at a simple video of the guy circle walking its still pretty obvious he has had some good training and has a good handle on his choosen methods.

Im no expert but to me he looked good, Its nice to see someone with skill enjoying what they do.

Black Jack

07-17-2003, 07:48 PM

Your right. I don't know or give a flying leap about chi kung. I am however able to tell the difference between the real world around me and those who sail under false colors of the martial fantasy camp.

One thing that should be noted that I find really weird. Posters are talking about and focused on Painters lineage and not about the fact that he says he can stop criminals from butchering him with his telepathic brain f@arts.

Hello......hello.......anybody home????????

tnwingtsun

07-17-2003, 08:11 PM

Does SD teach telepathic brain f@arts??

Is Painter related to Walker Texas Ranger?

Kymus

07-18-2003, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by Kymus

Or a good ****...

Ok, why in baby jesus's name, they censor f a r t?!?@$

Kymus

07-18-2003, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by Black Jack
Your right. I don't know or give a flying leap about chi kung. I am however able to tell the difference between the real world around me and those who sail under false colors of the martial fantasy camp.

One thing that should be noted that I find really weird. Posters are talking about and focused on Painters lineage and not about the fact that he says he can stop criminals from butchering him with his telepathic brain f@arts.

Hello......hello.......anybody home????????

if you understood chi, then you would understand, but since you decide to close yourself off, you'll never comprihend it.

Ray Pina

07-18-2003, 06:22 AM

Will you guys be at the Ba Gua tournament in September?

Kymus

07-18-2003, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by jon
Just as an opinion from another Bagua practioner (albiet lower level) I honestly think the walking is good.
Its nothing particualy spectacular or special but its also quite well executed and he obviously has good control over his body.
Sure he doesnt step the same way exactly that we do in my linage but thats also to be expected. Most Bagua linages seem to have a slightly different interpretation depending on what there trying to achieve at the time with the 'walk'.
To my knowledge the heel toe stepping is a perfectly legit stepping method, its not one i employ but ive certainly seen it before. I could be mistaken but i believe Li Zi Ming used this step reguarly and i would have a hard time listening to anyone claim his stuff was not legit.

At the Ba Gua/Tai Chi farm, I've heard from a friend of mine that you learn to constantly 'step' where ever you go cause Dr. Painter may come up and try to nudge you off balance. So because of this, he does pheonix stepping wherever he goes, all the time.
Ba Gua stepping IS real good. It gives you a lot of mobility. I read a story about how a waiter was chosen to take food to the emperor through a big crowd and his ba gua stepping allowed him to move in and out without dropping anything

Black Jack

07-18-2003, 09:19 AM

Kymus,

You know what they say don't you. There is a sucker born every minute. I guess you were the fall guy for one of those minutes.

The Willow Sword

07-18-2003, 10:25 AM

EvolutionFist :Will you guys be at the Ba Gua tournament in September?

Well i dont do tournaments,,but if i did i wouldnt be able to go anyway. i am travelling to europe in September. i am going to look at some schools where i am going.

TWS

Ray Pina

07-18-2003, 12:02 PM

Cool. Enjoy Europe. I just went this past winter for the first time: Sweden, Paris and Germana. It was great. The beer and girls are to die for!

I was asking because I tend to side with a lot of your posts and would have liked to meet you.

Safe travels.
Ray

yuanfen

07-19-2003, 02:24 PM

Philbert- discussing wc on a tc forum? <G>.
I know- I got your point.
Lineage is important but nota sufficient indicator of learning kung fu.
The bad review of Yip Chun's book is most likely bya student of Jason Lau.
Jason Lau isa good ighter and has trained some pretty good fighters.

Jason Lau's sifu the late great Jiu Wan was also good. He learned some wing chun before he worked with Ip Man who also taught him.

But as happens in promotion and lineage tracing the Jason Lau folks have been minimizing the Ip Man connection.

No big deal.

Guandi

07-20-2003, 02:23 AM

>One thing that should be noted that I find really weird. Posters are talking about and focused on Painters lineage and not about the fact that he says he can stop criminals from butchering him with his telepathic brain f@arts.<

can you post the part of the article, where he is saying it or post where exactly I can find it? otherwise it it just some hearsay for me.

Kymus

07-20-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Black Jack
Kymus,

You know what they say don't you. There is a sucker born every minute. I guess you were the fall guy for one of those minutes.

So I guess then this art that's been practiced for 4 or 5 thousand years is fake and all those guys that brake spears on their throats are just phoneys huh? Try some internal martial arts and you'll feel Chi. Better yet, just do push hands with one of them.

David Jamieson

07-20-2003, 07:57 AM

4 or 5 thousand years

Kymus, I think that is a tad egrigious. :)

Baguazhang in it's current practice is approx 300 years old and has been adapted and modified throughout that period.

Shaolin is only 1500 yrs old (give or take a few years) and It's Codified systems of martial arts grew the most during the Qing dynasty, again, in the last 400 or so years.

All systems that are currently practiced are not near as ancient as people seem to think they are. Nor are they at there very root quite as mystical or magical.

People enter into kwoons and dojos with rose coloured glasses and peppermint dreams that they will be able to fly and kick butt after they take the training for a little while.

After years of practice and stripping away the ubiquitous Mystical doo dads that are associated with martial arts, I still find them to be exhilerating and an integral part of my daily living.

After all, we are only human, and there only is, what is real.
I can't really say anything about anyone. People market themselves as all kinds of things. The truth is manifest in the actions and deeds.

cheers

NorthernMantis

07-20-2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by Black Jack
Anybody who claims he can hurt you with empty force is the only answer you need on the question.

No matter how hard you try you can not polish a turd into a diamond.

That's where you go wrong black jack. I have a tape of Dr. John Painter where he claims that he doesn't believe int he mysticism sorrounding chi kung and states that those are common things that people can do.

Brad

07-20-2003, 09:02 AM

all those guys that brake spears on their throats are just phoneys huh? Try some internal martial arts and you'll feel Chi. Better yet, just do push hands with one of them.
Breaking the spears and stuff like that is basically physics, and could be done by people with no martial arts or qigong experience whatsoever. That's hardly the same as knocking down/moving people with chi without touching them...

This sheds some light on the subject(though the vids weren't working when I checked it out): http://www.discovery.ca/Stories/2003/06/09/51.asp

Anyway, while they do require hard work and skill to get right, in these tricks I don't see any direct relation to the fighting or health aspects of Chinese wushu in these tricks. I think they're good for publicity and that's about it. I don't mind the tricks though, as long as people aren't using them to make false claims.

Brad

07-20-2003, 09:07 AM

I have a tape of Dr. John Painter where he claims that he doesn't believe int he mysticism sorrounding chi kung and states that those are common things that people can do.
Just to clarify, when you say he says they "are common things that people can do". You're talking about the physics tricks, not the moving people without touching them, right? Are you saying he doesn't believe the whole empty force? Just asking, 'cause the way you worded it in relation to the quote you're responding to makes it sound like he thinks empty force is not mystical and anyone can do it :p

NorthernMantis

07-20-2003, 09:49 AM

Right on the first part. Wrong on the empty force. Not sure if he even heard about empty force since it's related to a lot of posers.

Brad

07-20-2003, 10:05 AM

Cool, that's what I thought you meant, just thought I'd get clarification :cool:

Guandi

07-20-2003, 10:13 AM

Dr Painter wrote some articles where he states that empty force wont work at all. just with conditioned students.

that's why I want to have Black Jack to give us the text where Dr Painter is saying that he can do this. as long as he does not do this, I wont believe that Dr Painter wrote such things.

Leimeng

07-31-2003, 06:20 PM

~ This topic was addressed about a year ago or so here and Mr Painter actually responded himself. I encourage you to check out the archives and get a good handle of the debate before you bring it up again.
~ IMO there are many other nationally named instructors of numerous styles including Ba Gua who are of much more dubious quality and whose claims are much more lfallacious.
~ I dont mention names that often. The distinguising charactoristic should be along these lines: Can the individual actually (and honestly) back up his claims about his skills or not? If he can then ask yourself if you could learn something from him. If he can't then walk away until you have enough skill of your own to actually beat him in front of the camera for all the world to see.
~ Many times, not always, but many times, a person who has to bash others is really looking for a way to validate their own lack of skills and abilities. It stems from a lot of insecurity and low self worth.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

bobojoe02

08-26-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Flying Tiger
Has anyone been to his website recently? Most of his claims are so outlandish and ridiculous that they are laughable and are written by someone who is mentally unbalanced. Take for example his account “Flight from China” of his teacher and his teacher’s teacher and their families to Taiwan to escape communism. This is just pure fiction and it never happened and it is just a figment of the imagination of Painter’s queer mind. What’s his point of putting up a Mauser pistol in his website for all the world to see? This man has told so many lies over the last thirty years or so that he believes them himself.
==========

I am not a Painter fan but I do respect his efforts more so than you, "Flying Crap" which is not unlike all of the rest of the fake kids out there. Look at shadow and shaolin do-do if you want to see yourself. They have not had even a decent street fight in their life but will claim they are the baddest thing since penguin do-do. Now, here you come along and begin adding to their fradulent mouths. Painter over "Flyiing Tiger Crap" anyday.

Bo

BAI HE

08-26-2003, 12:59 PM

So you take offense at someone ridiculing Painter by
ridiculing some other style.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/272412/Howaboutanicecup.jpg

bobojoe02

08-26-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by BAI HE
So you take offense at someone ridiculing Painter by
ridiculing some other style.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/272412/Howaboutanicecup.jpg

----------------
I enlighten those who ridicule including myself. That's why I am sooooo enlightened, huh? LMAO.

PHILBERT

08-26-2003, 03:45 PM

bobojoe02, you registared this month. I am not questioning wheather or not you have been hiding in the shadows for a while and finally registared, however, if you think so highly of yourself, at least create a profile listing experience.

BAI HE

08-26-2003, 04:49 PM

Well, how bout that cup? I think it's just your
style Boboloaf.

bobojoe02

08-26-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by PHILBERT
bobojoe02, you registared this month. I am not questioning wheather or not you have been hiding in the shadows for a while and finally registared, however, if you think so highly of yourself, at least create a profile listing experience.

My experience is simple. I went to Beijing and Singapore for the past 25 years and careless about the faires on here who think they know something like as_ shadow, and others in shaolin-do-do.

bobojoe02

08-26-2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by PHILBERT
I find that story to be a load of **** because you are acting like a 14 year old boy. You list no style you studied in Beijing, no instructors who you studied under, and as far as I can tell, every post you put on here is dissing shadow or talking about ****sexuality.

I always thought that those who were ****phobic were more then likely secretly in the closet and wouldn't admit it to themselves, hence why they have to be immature and insult others.

-

If you are just another ***----got then, hey, go on dates with them, fay----got,

BAI HE

08-27-2003, 10:47 AM

[img]http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay14.jpg[img]

BAI HE

08-27-2003, 10:48 AM

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay14.jpg

John Painter

11-30-2004, 04:21 PM

About my making claims that I can push people over without touching them. The fact is that I can do this even if someone is punching at me. It is no great feat I can do it and so can any of you if you would take the time to examine the psychology behind it. Yes, I said psychology because the stunt has nothing to do with Qi or magic powers at least as I understand the use of the term Qi.

The skill of deflecting a punch and causing the person to fall away from you is sometimes often called “target replacement” and is well known by many martial arts experts in Chinese, Korean and Japanese disciplines. No it does not have to be one of your students or some dupe you paid to do it, it works with almost anyone and is a result of a matter of timing so as to lead the persons mind and body in a way that is not apparent to them, yet guides them away.

I have never said I could use Qi to move someone around! I never wrote articles claiming such. There was an old article years ago when we were doing research (when Qigong was new to the West) when I shot a series of photos showing how the mysterious ability of moving someone would look. Perhaps if you did not read the article you may have taken the photos out of context.

I was editor and publisher of for over eight years the IAM magazine you would have seen article after article sponsored by the magazine and my own money to search for the scientific reality of Qi energy as martial power. You would have seen the well documented experiment where Chien, Liang-Huang and I proved that a so called Master Ma from Beijing who claimed to push people and move them with his Qi was unable to do it with test subjects chosen at random from the street when they were blindfolded, unless they knew what the goal of the experiment was. In that case they would eventually move as part of the expectation of something mystical happening.

If you want to know anything about me then come see me in person. We can talk, exchange ideas or play and I will be glad to visit with you so long as you are polite and use good wude.

Thanks

John P. Painter

John Painter

11-30-2004, 04:26 PM

I am really too busy most of the time to surf and read posts on these forums. You guys seem to keep really busy giving me lots of free publicity. A great promoter said once, "I don't care what you say about me just be sure to spell the name right." This is because in the end most people forget if the press was good or bad they just remember the name they heard over and over again. So thanks for all the recognition good and bad.

I know it is a lot of fun to sit behind your keyboard, run people down, and make yourself feel important. I know that to some of you many of the pictures of me in the military and police uniforms seem silly. That is fine it does not change the fact that no matter how silly you think it is I am doing something positive for our country especially since 9-11.

As president and yes Captain of the American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Training Institute (ARMLETI) I feel proud to be giving my time and services to our country. ARMLETI was recommended by the US Marshals service to work with the Federal Air Marshal Service. ARMLETI currently has had our methods of PKC for law enforcement based on Baguazhang taught to well over 30,000 police, DPS, Sheriff’s and other law enforcement officers in the United States.

I am proud that a guy you all feel is such a big fake and showman has been selected to instruct the trainers of the Mansfield Sheriff’s office in Ohio who are responsible for teaching the court bailiffs and corrections officers who have to deal with violent inmates in prison settings without weapons.

I will also be attending this month a ceremony for the opening of a new law enforcement training facility in Ohio under the direction of Sgt. Rick Krausman defensive tactics trainer for the Mansfield Ohio sheriffs department. The new facility will be open to all law enforcement officers and I am proud to have been able to do something practical and patriotic with my Baguazhang no matter where or from what lineage it came from.

In the end it does not matter if one got the art from a secret note in a Cracker Jack box or if it came from Dong, Hai-Chuan in a dream or in a direct lineage as so many wish for. What matters is that you have a method and it works and you can use it and you do use it to the benefit of others and your country.

So while so many of you sit out there and try to pick apart my website, the photos and history I ask you why not spend more time doing something for the country that allows you this freedom. Why not help others instead of tearing them down?

If you want to know anything about me then come see me in person. We can talk, exchange ideas or play and I will be glad to visit with you so long as you are polite and use good wude.

Thanks

John P. Painter

John Painter

11-30-2004, 04:42 PM

Posted This Earlier but thought it fit here also.

I know it is a lot of fun to sit behind your keyboard, run people down, and make yourself feel important. I know that to some of you many of the pictures of me in the military and police uniforms seem silly. That is fine it does not change the fact that no matter how silly you think it is I am doing something positive for our country especially since 9-11. As president of the American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Training Institute (ARMLETI) I feel proud to be giving my time and services to our country.

ARMLETI was recommended by the US Marshals service to work with the Federal Air Marshal Service. ARMLETI currently has had our methods of PKC for law enforcement based on Baguazhang taught to well over 30,000 police, DPS, Sheriff’s and other law enforcement officers in the United States. I am proud that a guy you all feel is such a big fake and showman has been selected to instruct the trainers of the Mansfield Sheriff’s office in Ohio who are responsible for teaching the court bailiffs and corrections officers who have to deal with violent inmates in prison settings without weapons.

I will also be attending this month a ceremony for the opening of a new law enforcement training facility in Ohio under the direction of Sgt. Rick Krausman defensive tactics trainer for the Mansfield Ohio sheriffs department. I am deeply honored that in the new facility will also be included the John Painter’s Garden a defensive tactics handgun training area based on the use of the nine posts Bagua training methods to develop footwork in gun battles. The entire facility will be open to all law enforcement officers and I am proud to have been able to do something practical and patriotic with my Baguazhang no matter where or from what lineage it came from.

In the end it does not matter if one got the art from a secret note in a Cracker Jack box or if it came from Dong, Hai-Chuan in a dream or in a direct lineage as so many wish for. What matters is that you have a method and it works and you can use it and you do use it to the benefit of others and your country. So while so many of you sit out there and try to pick apart my website, the photos and history I ask you why not spend more time doing something for the country that allows you this freedom. Why not help others instead of tearing them down?

If you want to know anything about me then come see me in person. We can talk, exchange ideas or play and I will be glad to visit with you so long as you are polite and use good wude.

Thanks

John P. Painter

thegompa@aol.com

Three Harmonies

11-30-2004, 05:53 PM

Painter Laoshi
Well written. I already respect you more (not that I did not before) for your polite way of stating the facts. Too true. Unfortunately your words will most likely fall on def ears on this board.
I have a seperate thing I would like to ask in response though....and feel free to PM me if you do not wish to waste time hear (understood).
I was wondering how you feel about teaching law enforcement in general? I have some reservations about teaching "cops" (instead of writing out law enforcement everytime). The overwhleming majority I have ever been around (not on the receiving end BTW), and the ones I have trained with have been nothing short of egotistical, napoleon complex ridden, bullies. I used to work many different facets of security (Best Buy Loss Prevention ****, bouncer, etc.) and talked as well as worked with everyone from Marshalls to beat cops. This attitude was prevelant. That is not to say that our others that are different, but the numbers in MY EXPERIENCE are not favorable.
My point is this, I do not feel comfortable teaching techniques that can surely injure, possibly destroy someones life, to someone with the posistion of power and control such as cops. Many teachers have argued that they teach these so the cops know how to safely handle a situation with minimal damage to everyone, but that has not been my experience. I have been struggling over whether or not to teach someone in such a posistion for quite sometime now, and so far I have not had to face the problem, but I know someday I will.
What are your thoughts and feelings on this? Any insight would be appreciated by me. THank you.

Hands folded in respect,
Mr. Jake Burroughs
three_harmonies@hotmail.com
www.threeharmonies.com

John Painter

11-30-2004, 08:07 PM

Dear Sir,
Thank you for your kind response. Teaching offices and military are two different ball games. Police officers often develop some "attitude" especially when dealing with the dregs of the public for so long. It is also the fault of many departments who underpay our officers so much that the job attracts only those who want to carry a gun and play Dirty Harry. They are not all like this but I agree some are. With training law enforcement especially city police we have to be sure to teach them to do what their job is really about. Find the person suspected of committing a crime and take him to the jail or court house for processing with out damaging him and according to the ACLU without offending his sensibilities or messing up his hair.

Seriously cops have very few tactics that are left to them to keep them from being beaten or sued. The public does not like them much, the bad guys hate them and their own departments will cover their own rear ends before they will support the cop in trouble or suspected of crossing the line. In most municipalities the cops are very poorly trained and have little real skills yet they must often face guys who as Phil Donahue said when I was on his show talking about the Rodney King incident, “are capable of violent acts in response to a fare thee well.”. In other words these guys have to try to keep from getting killed while trying not to harm the guy killing them! A tough job at best and most fail at it due to poor training. That was why the started the American Rangers, which by the way the major rank and file trainers are made up of officers with years of practical street experience from all branches of law enforcement.

Lots of martial artists brag about teaching the police and military. My experience is that most who brag about it don’t really do it. Oh they may have done a demo or shown some officers a few tricks but that it different from a full tactical CQB program designed from hand to hand to firearms based on a martial art. The reasons most martial artists do not really train offices are many the first of which is that most cops don’t trust anyone but another cop so it is tough to get their attention. Most of them do not want to train, unless they had the stuffing beaten out of them a couple of times and then they are all for it and also there is not much money in it.

As I see it my job is to teach the trainers who train the officers. We want to help the officer or jailer learn how to use the rules provided for him by his council of governments and survive long enough each day to go home to his family that night and hope that he has the best of intentions and if not that perhaps those who train him can inspire him by example.

Thanks

John P. Painter
PS
If you want to write me off line we can discuss your ideas of training officers. Big difference between military guys we train in Israel and the local USA police departments.

rogue

11-30-2004, 09:00 PM

The skill of deflecting a punch and causing the person to fall away from you is sometimes often called “target replacement” and is well known by many martial arts experts in Chinese, Korean and Japanese disciplines. No it does not have to be one of your students or some dupe you paid to do it, it works with almost anyone and is a result of a matter of timing so as to lead the persons mind and body in a way that is not apparent to them, yet guides them away.
Mr. Painter, I had a sensei that could do that and he also said it was just tricking your opponent. Do you have any links to online videos showing this?

Thanks

SiuHung

11-30-2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by John Painter
I am really too busy most of the time to surf and read posts on these forums. You guys seem to keep really busy giving me lots of free publicity. A great promoter said once, "I don't care what you say about me just be sure to spell the name right." This is because in the end most people forget if the press was good or bad they just remember the name they heard over and over again. So thanks for all the recognition good and bad.

I know it is a lot of fun to sit behind your keyboard, run people down, and make yourself feel important. I know that to some of you many of the pictures of me in the military and police uniforms seem silly. That is fine it does not change the fact that no matter how silly you think it is I am doing something positive for our country especially since 9-11.

As president and yes Captain of the American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Training Institute (ARMLETI) I feel proud to be giving my time and services to our country. ARMLETI was recommended by the US Marshals service to work with the Federal Air Marshal Service. ARMLETI currently has had our methods of PKC for law enforcement based on Baguazhang taught to well over 30,000 police, DPS, Sheriff’s and other law enforcement officers in the United States.

I am proud that a guy you all feel is such a big fake and showman has been selected to instruct the trainers of the Mansfield Sheriff’s office in Ohio who are responsible for teaching the court bailiffs and corrections officers who have to deal with violent inmates in prison settings without weapons.

I will also be attending this month a ceremony for the opening of a new law enforcement training facility in Ohio under the direction of Sgt. Rick Krausman defensive tactics trainer for the Mansfield Ohio sheriffs department. The new facility will be open to all law enforcement officers and I am proud to have been able to do something practical and patriotic with my Baguazhang no matter where or from what lineage it came from.

In the end it does not matter if one got the art from a secret note in a Cracker Jack box or if it came from Dong, Hai-Chuan in a dream or in a direct lineage as so many wish for. What matters is that you have a method and it works and you can use it and you do use it to the benefit of others and your country.

So while so many of you sit out there and try to pick apart my website, the photos and history I ask you why not spend more time doing something for the country that allows you this freedom. Why not help others instead of tearing them down?

If you want to know anything about me then come see me in person. We can talk, exchange ideas or play and I will be glad to visit with you so long as you are polite and use good wude.

Thanks

John P. Painter

Mr. Painter, I have not connection to Bagua whatsoever. However, I've seen your videos and the material within is much better than 90% of the crap people try to pass off as internal martial arts. I really enjoyed the applications shown. Good work on the law enforcement training, we in CMA need more people willing to teach the goods to those who really need them.

Funny how people have no problem slamming someone online, basing thier opinion from a tiny video clip or out of context quote...Sometimes it's easy to forget that lineage and history mean nothing if you don't have the hands to back them up.

Three Harmonies

11-30-2004, 10:00 PM

Painter Laoshi
Thank you for your quick and honest response. I can see that you do not enertain the BS many have found in the field of law enforcement, yet you raise some good points in regard to the police officers working in John Q. Public! I may criticize, but I would never wish that job on anyone.
I shall PM you soon. Thank you for your offer.

Jake

Buddy

12-01-2004, 08:03 AM

I have had a couple of email conversations with Mr. Painter and found him to be a gentleman. I met him once many moons ago at a tournament in San Francisco and he showed (albeit briefly) a firm root and a good push. That he takes time to answer this continuing line of bull**** shows his character, I think. TWS, you obviously know little about bagua stepping but that has been sufficiently pointed out. In Gao style bagua we have: chicken step, crane step, mud step, and the small fast walk (done heel/toe). Most of Yin Fu style I have seen uses heel/toe.
Mr. Painter has gone on at length elsewhere about his theories of IMA to good review. Perhaps if you were polite you might get a schooling. And as others have said, if you have a question, step up to the man himself and ask. Just don't let your feelings get hurt if the answer is painful.

Samurai Jack

12-01-2004, 09:56 AM

I have video of Sun Lu Tang's daughter stepping heel-toe for Pa Kua stepping. I studied Liang Zhen Pu for a time and we always used the muddy stepping (it's great for staying balanced on an icy street by the way). All sorts of stepping patterns are used in Pa Kua. Gao style even dispenses with circle walking, yet it's still considered a good style of Pa Kua.

John Painter

12-01-2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by SiuHung
Mr. Painter, I have not connection to Bagua whatsoever. However, I've seen your videos and the material within is much better than 90% of the crap people try to pass off as internal martial arts. I really enjoyed the applications shown. Good work on the law enforcement training, we in CMA need more people willing to teach the goods to those who really need them.

Funny how people have no problem slamming someone online, basing thier opinion from a tiny video clip or out of context quote...Sometimes it's easy to forget that lineage and history mean nothing if you don't have the hands to back them up.

Dear Sir,
Thank you for the kind comments. Here is a piece I posted on our Yahoo club I hope it helps to clear up my motives and goals.
The True Self
By: John P. Painter

Over the years I have been criticized by many for what they see as seeking fame in the martial art world, by delving in self-promotion through appearances in magazines and videos. There are those that claim my goals are to promote myself only for the sake of money and acclaim. Those who make such accusations are people who do not know me or understand my motives.

We all want to be recognized, it is human nature. It is true that I have sought to promote the arts I was entrusted with and as such for more than 20 years I was the only one with developing skills in these methods. So I was the art, at least the physical manifestation of it as it arises from the internal to external form. There was no one else to do it so the task fell to me as spokesperson. I did not and still do not feel worthy or interested in the attention, but if the public cannot give a face and name to an art it is only a dream on paper. You can build a better mouse trap but no one will buy it if you live in the desert so you starve.

From my career in show business as an actor and professional magician I had needed to feed my family by my talents which were useless without developing skills in advertising and copy writing. When I left the night club circuit and later Six Flags as head of the western stunt show and began teaching what I knew of my teachers art for a living it was necessary to find students. A teacher with no students is just a man in search of an audience. So I taught myself to write magazine articles and set out to promote and teach the methods shared with me by the Gong Fu teacher of my youth. My goal was to have people know and enjoy this art. I believed then and now that it is something that will help me and others.

My efforts attracted students, fans and critics. At times I succeeded and at times I failed. There were many mistakes made but each time life knocked me down I got back up and went at it again. Through it all if it were not for my morning practice it would have been easy to loose sight of the goals and give in to basking in the short lived limelight or wallow in the pain of mean spirited allegations. It is very difficult to attempt such a journey without a firm grounding in the reality of who one really is.

I get this grounding each morning at 6:00 am when I sit before the ancestors place in our school to face the true face in deep meditation. Here in the quiet of the dawn the mind can become reverent as the spirit seeks for the internal that is the nucleus of all things. Here it is possible to know that publicity and fame are not the true self. One can discover that technique, forms and external tricks are not the true art or the true self. Here the ego can dissolve and joys, pain, frustration, elation can all rise up and then slip away leaving a quiet unknown by many.

Here there is no seeking of Qi feelings, microcosmic orbits or inner powers, no desire for ability or skill just a humbling knowledge that one is a tiny infinitesimal part of a much greater web that is the universe. Here there is no fame or blame only quiet. For me it is this quiet that brings an inner core of peace that even in daily life cannot be easily disturbed by the external winds of others opinions.

The outer face each person sees of John Painter in magazines, websites or even this article is really not the true self that is John Painter. It is two things the face I choose to show and the interpretation you put on it. How can we possibly know someone else?

You reading this know that you have a secret inner you that no one else knows. It is here that our goals and desires are manifest. It is also this secret inner side that we project into our assessment of others. Such an assessment is most often a reflection of our own fears, desires, or unrealized goals and does not reflect an understanding or knowledge of another person.

In my world I believe that all contrived techniques, exercises and external training in martial art spring from an inner source. I also have come to accept that pre-conceived attitudes spring from unsophisticated desires and that accommodation of these desires is essential only for those who have not faced their true self in the quiet of the dawn and learned to understand the root of these desires.

When one has done this many abilities and skills will manifest in life and martial arts. That is not to say that we do not have to build a foundation and structure to manifest our martial abilities, we do and this is the external part of Gong fu (hard work over time). Yet if we want the deeper knowledge that transcends form we must come to face and to know the true self. If this is done abilities and skills come and go as needed like the rain with no thought of how or why. This is the highest level of martial arts. I am not claiming to have reached it but after many years I can see a light at the end of an interminably long tunnel.

When we have come to know the true self and allow our desires for fame and fortune to dissipate the ego becomes less. It is then that striving ceases and things come to us with much less effort. It is then that we can move closer to the Daoist ideal of water. Water can take many forms, liquid, steam, clouds, rain and ice. So it can appear to be many things yet its essence is always water. As a warm sea it can be restful, yet as a tsunami it can be terrifying.

Using this model in public life we do not need to be untrue to ourselves but at the same time we can choose to wear whatever costume or masks we choose to manipulate life around us and we do it with the full knowledge that this presentation may be necessary to help those looking for some perceived goal to avail themselves of what you have to offer. We still know that these masks while honest are not the true self and so long as it is an honest representation of skills and abilities we possess it is honest and sincere. In other words as the great sage Jonathan Winters once said, “We don’t get to believing our own stuff!”

So I wear Chinese Zhifu (uniform) when I teach traditional Chinese martial arts to provide the flavor and feel. I wear a business suit when I fly, BDU’s and tactical gear with all the accoutrements when I train the police and military, and jeans and T shirts when going to the grocery store or the movies. Each morning I am in my Daoist robe when I meditate and walk the circle. It pleases me to do so. The real I is all of these but the true self is naked before God, the only entity that you and I really have to answer to.

Find your bliss.

John Painter

IronFist

12-01-2004, 11:18 AM

Is he the guy who had all those pics on his website of him photochopped into pics of famous Chinese masters? Or was that somewhere else? I thought there was a discussion about this in the Internal forum a while ago. I know someone did that but I don't remember who. I don't want to start rumors if it's not true.

MonkeySlap Too

12-01-2004, 11:29 AM

Um, what's wrong with being motivated to make money? That's how you feed your family. As long as a person is honest about what they are selling, it's no big deal. Honestly, if it's how a teacher makes a living, they should charge what the market will bear. How dare anyone presume they are owed your knowledge and skill that you sacrificed to develop. The hubris of some people just amazes me.

Of course I teach for free, but that's just so I don't have to put up with those a$$holes.

lkfmdc

12-01-2004, 02:39 PM

I am not a Ba Gua guy, don't run in those circles, LOL! :D

That being said, I personally watched Shihfu Painter tie into knots a certain "well known" Chinese Ba Gua "master" at one of Jeff Bolt's events years ago... my group stood and watched and died laughing... Go Dr Painter!!!!

We actually need more cut the bull/get to the substance kind of guys around

rubthebuddha

12-01-2004, 05:35 PM

wrong, ross, wrong wrong wrong. we need the stinky stuff -- it makes meat shake smell decent in comparison. ;)

TaiChiBob

12-02-2004, 06:30 AM

Greetings..

Jake, It has been my experience that training members of the Law Enforcement Community provides us with an excellent opportunity to negotiate the "attitude" you mention.. it is surprising to see the receptiveness when officers are presented with alternatives to raw force when dealing with uncooperative citizens.. at the same time, we are obligated to offer them tools for self-preservation.. that is to say that, when necessary, they should have a discipline of trained responses that decisively controls a situation. The single most obvious deficiency i have noticed when dealing with Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) is lack of awareness of surroundings, they don't recognize secondary threats due to concentrated focus on the immediate threat. Even such things as traffic stops need careful attention to threats like other traffic.. it is amazing to watch, even in training, as a LEO steps back into moving traffic when a suspect becomes threatening.. I am fortunate to have a senior Ninjitsu instructor working out of our school, they are intensely aware of their environment. But, to make a short story long, i wouldn't hesitate to train LEOs, but be quick with your evaluations of character and intent and work diligently to mitigate "attitudes"..

To echo some sentiments, thank you Mr. Painter for your candor and disciplined display of linguistics.. thanks also for your expressed intentions, it demonstrates character and a willingness to look for solutions where others seek conflict..

Be well..

Buddy

12-02-2004, 07:03 AM

Jack,
"Gao style even dispenses with circle walking, yet it's still considered a good style of Pa Kua."

Where did you hear this nonsense? Circle walking is the foundation of our system and indeed, all baguazhang.

scotty1

12-02-2004, 09:33 AM

Looks like John Painter's one step ahead of the haters.:)

John Painter

12-02-2004, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

To echo some sentiments, thank you Mr. Painter for your candor and disciplined display of linguistics.. thanks also for your expressed intentions, it demonstrates character and a willingness to look for solutions where others seek conflict..

Be well..

Dear Mr. TaiChiBob,
Thank you for the kind words I do my best. Looking for solutions especially to the problem of law enforcement LEO training has been one of my passions since two of my LEO friends were killed in the line of duty and Phil Donahue the TV host challenged me to come up with a way to teach officers something they could remember. This was the basis of PKC (Pa Kua Chang) but we now say Physical Knowledge Control a method which is deceptively simple yet can be applied across the board of DT (Defensive Tactics) and ranges from de-escalation of conflict to empty hand defense, handcuffing, pepper spray, baton, tazer, knives and small arms close quarter training. The same mental principles and physical principle applies to all of these. It took 15 years to design and it is still evolving.

My problem arises when well meaning instructors of sport wushu or martial arts try to take on a goal that is outside of their experience. The LEO community has very special needs from the psychological to the physical and many, not all but many rank and file martial teachers are not really equipped to understand these special needs.

It takes someone who has walked the walk and traversed the territory, assessed the problems and worked on solutions to fully appreciate these needs. Many techniques taught today are frankly either ineffective in the real world or based on point fighting in a ring. Teaching such tactics to LEO’s is irresponsible and can have serious repercussions. We are not dealing with tournament jockeys here who get a trophy and go home with a few bruises when their secret Wai-gong spinning back, flip kick or Neijia Qi power does not work, we are dealing with a man or womans life!

I think you must know this from the way you speak so I am preaching to the choir possibly but perhaps the rest of the gallery could use the information.

Thanks again

John P. Painter

Ray Pina

12-02-2004, 10:07 AM

"It takes someone who has walked the walk and traversed the territory."

Mr. Painter, I really don't know anything about you other than a few articles I read about you in some MA magazines. Some of the articles were good, I remember one talking about perjecting force (if that was you) that I did not agree with but we all can't agree on everything.

And I'm the first to admit that folks here are edgy and pushy and talk to much because of the distance of the web. Your critics though, WICH I AM NOT (like I said, don't know you), want to now what makes you qualified to teach LEOs (Have you walked that walk? Have you been a law enforcement officer? Been shot at? Disarmed someone attacking you with a gun or knife?). Others I think are curious about your lineage.

I agree with you that lineage is not that important but could be. But I would not go so far as to say a cracker jack box surprise would do when dealing with things as complex and subtle as internal martial arts.

I've seen some footage of you walking and it seems unique. A lot of martial artists here are also quasi-historians and I'm sure a lot of their interest is just trying to piece the puzzle together. Who taught that type of walking? Where does it come from, ect., etc., etc.

If you got the good stuff I'd learn from you if you wore a tutu ... well, maybe not. But close;)

Hope all is well.
Ray Pina

John Painter

12-02-2004, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by rogue
Mr. Painter, I had a sensei that could do that and he also said it was just tricking your opponent. Do you have any links to online videos showing this?

Thanks

Dear Mr. Rogue,

No I am sorry I do not.

(HERE COMES THE COMMERCIAL)
I demonstrate this technique fast and in slow motion on an audience member along with a number of other such methods which are being taught at a workshop. The program shows members learning to do some of these methods on camera.

This is on a new DVD from Center Point and Paper Lantern Productions called “The architecture of Internal Power"

It is a filmed lecture and workshop recorded at the Zhan San Feng Festival in East Stroudsburg PA two year ago. In it we discuss the concepts of creating Jin (energy) for Fa-Jin (pulsing energy) or An-Jin (pushing energy) through correct use of the skeletal structure, muscle alignment and use of the two diaphragms in the torso with a method often erroneously called the “reverse breath” for use in any style martial art. We explain how the physical actions are further enhanced by the use of the Yi (intent) and Xin (imagination / emotional energy).

If you are interested in owning this DVD you can write me at Thegompa@aol.com be sure to put Architecture of Internal Power in the subject line.

Be aware that I do not answer any emails with NO SUBJECT in the subject line or that are not signed with a real name.

Thanks for asking

John P. Painter

John Painter

12-02-2004, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
"It takes someone who has walked the walk and traversed the territory."

Mr. Painter, I really don't know anything about you other than a few articles I read about you in some MA magazines. want to now what makes you qualified to teach LEOs (Have you walked that walk? Have you been a law enforcement officer? Been shot at? Disarmed someone attacking you with a gun or knife?). Others I think are curious about your lineage.
Hope all is well.
Ray Pina

Dear Mr. Pina,

As to having been there, it is not with a matter of pride that my body has been injured more than once with numerous broken bones from night club gang fights, two knife wounds and one gunshot wound from a fire fight all suffered in the line of duty as a bodyguard. Unlike other states in Texas today you have to be licensed to be a pro-bodyguard.

In my early years I was a member of the Greg County search and rescue team for the sheriffs’ office. After moving to Dallas I acted as a professional bodyguard for many of the Dallas Jet-set Elite and such notables as Bill Cosby, Jerry Lewis, Kenny Rogers, Phil Donahue and others.

As a personal safety expert I have also instructed celebrity clients, Cindy Crawford, Craig T. Nelson and Kenny Rogers in self-defense and personal safety techniques. Our program "Urban Survival" a method of personal security has been presented around the United States to the wives of government, business and industrial leaders, film and television stars and other personalities.

After the Rodney King incident in Los Angeles I was invited to appear as an expert on Police Training methods by the Phil Donahue Show in New York. This occurred on Tuesday, October 13, 1992. (Yes there is a tape of this show).

On the show we demonstrated our PKC concepts and had a spirited discussion with Mr. Donahue. Later Mr. Donahue after receiving several death threats when he and his crew were scheduled to be in Fort Worth Texas to do a show on the skin-heads Neo-Nazi movement and gang invasion of the Metroplex, asked me to act as a personal security agent.

In 1994 I was required to go through the Police Training Academy to understand from the inside the methodology of of LEO training. I was then asked to be an assistant trainer for the tactical, hand-to-hand combat training for students attending the police science course at the North Central Texas Council of Governments, Regional Training Center, and Police Academy under the direction of Sgt. Marty Emwalee and Officer Mike Walker.

I also assisted the Police Training Consultants, Inc. a company owned and operated by LEO members of long standing in the LEO community in training at the Arlington Texas Police Dept. I also acted in consultation with Captain James Wright (now retired) of the Texas Rangers.

Also in 1994 at the recommendation of Phil Donahue I was given a special assignment to gather information for an NBC program (which was never aired) focusing on United States police training. It was this research along with the death of two of my LEO friends in the line of duty that prompted me to push the PKC program.

Our work with PKC went on for some years and then due to a continued frustration with bureaucrats and budget cuts, where training was the first to go in many municipalities I reduced my involvement for a time and returned to teaching and writing about Chinese internal martial arts.

After 9-11 I was recommended to the US Marshals service who contacted me advising me on how to become involved with the US Air Marshals training program and some weeks later by the Mansfield Ohio Sheriff’s office each urging me to return to training LEO trainers. As a side note one of our American Rangers Wolf Thiel is now a Federal Marshall and is teaching others our PKC methods.

I am presently serving as a Defensive Tactics Training Officer with the Ohio office (I commute from Texas) under the direction of SGT. Rick Krausman In their Sheriff’s office who is also a Capt. in the ARMLETI Rangers and is the training officer of record for a majority of the states LEO in defensive tactics.

I am a member of the following organizations:
Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame
American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers. (Aslet)
Police Consultants Inc
Certified Asp Baton Trainer
Certified Firearms Instructor
American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Training Institute
Former, Special Deputy Search and Rescue, Gregg County Texas Sheriff's office
Texas Ranger, Honorary Member

Thank you for your question. I do not monitor these groups that often so if you wish more information please write me off line at cappainter@aol.com

John P. Painter

Ray Pina

12-02-2004, 11:28 AM

"numerous broken bones from night club gang fights, two knife wounds and one gunshot wound from a fire fight "

Kind sir, sounds like you're in need of a new pair of shoes;) (as in, sounds like a lot of miles walked)

...

So from whome did you learn your Ba Gua? Is this something you don't talk about or is it out there on the web somewhere? Like I said, all I know of you and your history comes in bits and pieces from articles.

Do you have students that are "getting it"?

MonkeySlap Too

12-02-2004, 11:36 AM

The Daito-Ryu guys are big on this trick. It's pretty easy, but not something I would count on when facing a trained opponent. Amazing how similar the untrained mind is to a chickens...

Samurai Jack

12-02-2004, 07:33 PM

Where did you aquire the rank of Captain? As a former military man and current volunteer police officer, I've got to respect a man who's paid his dues in the service and worked on the educational requirements necessary to become a doctor as well. You must have been working full-bore for years to achieve a rank that carries so much responsibility, not to mention having become such a respected martial artist. It's amazing you've had the time to build a family. I look forward to reading more about your education and service career.

John Painter

12-02-2004, 08:35 PM

ABOUT CAPTAIN RANK IN RANGERS

I have had a VERY active and full life. I have also had some 60 years to explore many winding roads and enjoy many adventures, success and failures. That is the joy of life to do what you love and love what you do.

I do not hold any military or sworn law enforcement rank and have never claimed to do so. The American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Institute is a private company comprised of individuals with experience in defensive tactics training for law enforcement. Some of our trainers and advisors are active LEO while others are retired from such services at the FBI, Texas Rangers, Army Rangers and other LEO departments.

Instead of belt ranks to show proficiency we have ranking levels that are set up similar to the Texas Rangers. These divisions begin from Private, Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain and Commander. For each level there are numerous levels of verbal, academic, physical and tactical skills required for attainment.

Ranking levels are awarded after the officer has completed the required course material published in the syllabus for ARMLETI operations and amassed a minimum of 30+ hours of instruction and training for each level. This syllabus is in compliance with local and national law enforcement training standards.

Said officer must demonstrate a proficiency in the written, physical and tactical material as well as the ability to instruct the material covered at his or her level of examination before a review board made up of his superior officers and peers. Instructor candidates are tested with written, verbal and physical examinations.

Such examination depending on the rank may include endurance evaluation, hand to hand combatives, arrest and detention tactics, firearm retention, handgun and long gun disarms, edge weapons disarms, edge weapons combatives, three styles of batons, OC (pepper spray) Tazer principles and tactical handgun, shotgun and rifle proficiency that meet the rigorous standards of the American Rangers training models. Ranking for Captain includes all of the above as well as hostage negotiation skills, combative de-escalation skills.

While it is true that I began the organization originally; I quickly put a review board of directors in place made up of ARMLETI and non ARMLETI officers. So even as the owner I started like everyone else at Private and worked my way up taking each and every test before the review board. Also as each officer has to re-qualify every five years as I get past the 60 mark if I don’t keep up I could get busted back to Lieutenant.

Currently I am involved with a DVD video project for our 14 Baguazhang schools and also producing our syllabus for LEO trainers and as such I may not be able to continue this banter on this forum for much longer. I do appreciate the polite way some of you have treated my responses and I thank you.

You may write me at cappainter@aol.com if you like and when time permits I will answer your other questions.

Thank you
John P. Painter

Samurai Jack

12-02-2004, 09:28 PM

Don't you think it's a little misleading to give yourself a pseudo military rank through an organization that you founded, which has nothing to do with military service or law enforcement? Is your doctorate, Phd, etc., etc. also actually "rank" which is only recognized by your organization?

dantes

12-03-2004, 04:49 AM

when all said and done, at least mr.painter is stepping up and taking the gauntlet,i doubt very few other martial artists let alone ima artists would devote so much of their time to preserving the lives of officers.officers have families and if just one thing they learn from mr.painter gets them out alive from a life threatening situation im all for it.

John Painter

12-03-2004, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by John Painter
ABOUT CAPTAIN RANK IN RANGERS

You may write me at cappainter@aol.com if you like and when time permits I will answer your other questions.

Thank you
John P. Painter

Please read the line above in the Quote if you want to contact me. This will be my last post here for the reasons explained above! If you read my previous post you should see that I explained that I did not GIVE myself anything! We have testing criteria and we use the ranking system to indicate it. I know what I explained is true, you have only my word for it and that is all you will ever have so you can choose to believe it or not believe it and forever wonder. That is not my problem

As I said above I do not have the free time or inclination to argue the point. Everyone who hires us (and a great many do) knows exactly what we at ARMLETI are and what we do and how we do it and what our ranking system means and they are fine with the way things are set up. We do not try to be dishonest or hide anything from the departments that employ us. They judge us on the results and our repeat business shows that they are happy with what they receive.

They review our methods and choose to use them or not. Most choose to use them as they are in line with their needs. I hope you can understand that. If not so be it. I have answered your questions openly and honestly and you continue to want more and more. I have no intention to offend anyone or hide anything but at this point I choose to end these discussion instead of continuing to answer to faceless, nameless individuals on a discussion board who use juvenile monikers instead of their real names.

If Mr. S Jack you are a real police officer then you may contact me offline at the above address and I will see that you are given an invitation to attend at not charge for the program one of our training sessions for you to make your own evaluation!

Nuff Said on this subject.

John Painter

Ray Pina

12-03-2004, 11:14 AM

Almost finished with the Nei Jia Quan book by Mr. O'Brain and was kind of disappointed that Mr. Painter was not included. I'm still very curious as to who trained him (here or in China) in Ba Gua. Would like to know some more background.

You guys went and ruined it for me now .... hope you're happy.:confused:

Three Harmonies

12-03-2004, 11:26 AM

Samurai Jack- Is it any different to calling oneself sifu, teacher, master, CEO, CFO, VP, President,etc.?? Go head hunting somewhere else would you?!
Evolution Fist- Get used to this crap if you are going to post on this forum. Contact Mr Painter privately and he will most likely answer your questions. I think his lineage info is on the web too. He has always been quite nice in getting back to me as quick as possible. Screw the rest of these peopl who are doing nothing other than looking for trouble.

Yours Truly,
Jake

TaiChiBob

12-03-2004, 11:38 AM

Greetings..

Just to be clear, and absolutely no ill intentions.. the "moniker" is one given to me by a Taoist senior monk, one of my mentors.. Tzu-Jan = spontaneous, of itself so.. Li = random order, like the grain in wood, or the veins in leaves.. a loosely translated reference to "nature's way".. but, to contact me:

Bob Waers
Extreme Harmony Martial Arts Academy
6562 University Blvd.
Orlando, Florida
extremeharmony.com or .biz (school)
Or: use the PM (private Message) option to contact me personally

I do not intend to hide behind a juvenile moniker, i was honored that my mentor thought well enough of me to give me a name with such class.. as for Mr. Painter, i respect his openess, his stated intentions, and his committment to act acordingly.. I would be honored to experience his instruction in person, and.. if he's ever in the area, i will do so..

Again, this has no ill-intended meanings, just a clear statement of my name and how to contact me.. (and, an invitation to visit my school :D advertising pays off)..

Be well...

Three Harmonies

12-03-2004, 11:48 AM

TaiChiBob
I am sorry, that comment was not meant to be thrown around loosely. Your posts and comments were respectful and thought provoking. It just seemed like one or two individuals were trying their hardest to get Mr Painter to all of the sudden say, "Yeah you punks are right Iam a joke!" I just get tired of these forums being wasted on stupid intentions, immature accusations, and egomaniacs talking sh!t. We should all being using this forum to share info, not to debunk anyone. Those that are frauds will not last.
So my apologies to anyone that does nto apply, my rant was not aimed at you. Those who are doing this....please chill, and leave the ego at the door! It will make everyone better, trust me!

Thank you
Jake

Ray Pina

12-03-2004, 01:15 PM

I can only speak for myself, and I can say with a clear conscious that I have no ill intent for Mr. Painter. But though he is somewhat of a martial arts celebratey, I don't think that automatically frees him of honest questions when it comes to certain claims, like projecting force out of ones body across a distance, no touch knock outs, or even the idea that Ba Gua walking provides some advantage when bullets start flying (many folks have been injured while bouncing or body guarding but haven't developed these abilities).

I also found it interesting to see him walking the circle with heavy weights in his hand, and his walking in general appears to be different than the standard.

In general, I am open to man's great potential. And just because someone does something different than the majority, that doesn't turn me off either. I am generally very interested in martial arts and just like to know the why about things, and, even though its not incredibly important, the from where.

Thats all on my end. And I'm glad I signed off with my name early in this thread before the moniker accusations got slinged;)
.... though even posting a name doesn't guarantee its a real name, and even if it is, the distances provided bythe web reduce their value anyway

Samurai Jack

12-03-2004, 01:45 PM

For the record, I held Mr. Painter's skills in high regard, as evidenced by my previous posts. I've even used photographs of him in posts to illustrate technical points, since he obviously demonstrates good technique.

On the other hand, I take serious issue when people mis-represent themselves to the public with self-agrandizing nonsense titles. I have friends fighting in Iraq who have earned thier military rank by risking thier lives for thier country. I also have an uncle who spent ten years of hard work and grueling sixteen hour day internships to earn the title Doctor. It is disappointing to see someone simply "assign" themselves such titles and rank in order to decieve the public for marketing purposes.

For those of you who are clearly not in the know, it is really not a big deal to be hired to teach a small seminar or in-service to law enforcement personell. We have preivate contractors who are invited to give us trainings all the time. I can tell you one thing for certain, if someone offers us a training while using a false military rank, such as Mr. Painter has done, he will not be invited for further training. The reason? Police officers don't tend to respect civilians who lie about thier qualifications.

I'm pretty disappointed since Mr. Painter obviously has developed some legitimate skills, yet won't even reveal where they came from. Up until now, I was one of his supporters.

dantes

12-04-2004, 05:34 AM

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=+Fu+Zhen+song/v=2/SID=e/l=IVI/SIG=123kqgfgk/*-http%

evolution fist, wai gong training is used by alot of of bagau masters, the stone sphere above demonstrates this.this is fu zhensong, creator of fu bagua

bamboo_ leaf

12-04-2004, 07:34 AM

Do you care more about the history or the skill, many teachers do not care to share their teachers names or history yet have very high level skills.

Baji Brad

12-04-2004, 10:30 AM

I think there's a difference between not wanting to share history, and lying about your history. Delibrately lying about your personal background makes you a fraud regardless of your skill, and some people would have a problem giving money to someone they know is a criminal. I'm not saying Painter is guiltey or innocent of this, but there is a difference between what people are saying he's doing(doctoring photos and using false credentials) and just being tight lipped. But while I think exposing fraud is a good thing, it's not enough just to talk about it on the internet. Here in America, someone is innocent until proven guilty and most of us aren't expert enough in Bagua, Bagua history, military rank, or photography to make a really educated opinion on the acusations being leveled at John Painter. The people that think they're "in the know" on this issue need to inform the proper authorities too.

Samurai Jack:
If he's using false military rank, isn't there some higher authority that you could report him too? I'd think our government would have a problem with someone teaching government programs with false credentials.

Buddy

12-04-2004, 12:45 PM

"I think there's a difference between not wanting to share history, and lying about your history. Delibrately lying about your personal background makes you a fraud regardless of your skill, and some people would have a problem giving money to someone they know is a criminal."

Well, lying is not a prosecutable offense in my state, and good thing too, the woods are filled with Kennedys. But lets look at this further. Who invented Taiji? Zhang Sanfeng? That's what some would have us believe. How about Xingyi? Yueh Fei? C'mon. How about Hung gar? Was it one the legendary Five Ancestors of Shaolin? Or was just some regular guy. My money is on regular, albeit very talented guys. Where does Mr. Painter fit in here? Truthfully it doesn't matter to me and nor should it to you if you are not his student. If one of them cares if it was Frank Li's family or some regular, albeit talented guy named John that made it up it's up to them. If you have an issue Arlington Texas isn't that difficult to find. Step up or shut up.

Samurai Jack

12-04-2004, 12:53 PM

Unfortunately, most of the public won't bother to do any digging on Painter, so his misleading titles will bring a sense of legitamacy to what he's marketing. Since he is willing to admit that his rank and titles are meaningless, as far as I can tell he isn't breaking any laws. As he said before, any publicity he gets whether negative or positive, will be good for him, since it'll get his name out there. He's a smart guy. Most con-men are.

Buddy

12-04-2004, 02:24 PM

As far as you can tell? Who gives a rats patoot what you can tell Jack? Painter is out there in the public. You won't find him hard to find. Con man is a harsh phrase. Go see him and back up your mouth.

My point is you know nothing about him beyond what you read and hear. Step up or shut up.

MonkeySlap Too

12-04-2004, 05:10 PM

What Buddy said.

Samurai Jack

12-04-2004, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Buddy
My point is you know nothing about him beyond what you read and hear.

That's not entirely accurate, Buddy. Most of what I know of him has come straight from his mouth, or he typed it himself. Harsh or not, the guy's misrepresenting himself.

Originally posted by Buddy
Who gives a rats patoot what you can tell Jack?

The quote you seem to be refering to was "Since he is willing to admit that his rank and titles are meaningless, as far as I can tell he isn't breaking any laws." Which was a response to Baji Brad's question concerning the legalities of falsely representing oneself as a military officer. If you're having difficulty following the conversation you might think about staying out of it.

Originally posted by Buddy
Step up or shut up.

This is precisely what Painter has been invited to do; explain himself, and his actions on a public forum, so there's no confusion. I've "stepped up" and asked him some legitimate questions. If his doctorate and P.h.d.s (etc. etc.) were aquired at accredited universities, why won't he just say so? If he learned Pa Kua from some guy in a garage, or a mystical MA master, why wouldn't he just say so? If he's really the only "Honorary Texas Ranger" in the history of the United States, why dosen't he just explain how this came to be? If his claims are true, there should be no problem here at all.

SPJ

12-04-2004, 07:10 PM

1) Wing Chun linage fights.

Why don't they call themself styles and identify the common root?

Such as Leung's style WC, or Yip Man- Bruce Lee- JKD, Fo Shan Peng Nam Nei Jia WC, etc.

2) Theories of Tai Ji started earlier. But many placed Zhang San Feng as the originator. And yet everybody knows that Chen Tai Ji was from general Chen Wang Ting in the mid 1600's. Chen Tai Ji is the practice. There are also Wu Dang Tai Ji Quan, even Shaolin has some similar ideas of practices. Some times it is also called Wu Ji Quan. Incidentally, Wu Mu Quan was created by General Yuet Fei to train solidiers to fight Jing and maybe Mongols. Wu Mu Quan is also called Wu Ji Quan.

3) Xing Yi was used in the army to hit via the armor chest or protective gear. Most think it was created by some one in Shan Xi. If it is from Yuet Fei, I am not sure. However, I used to recite the theorum of Xing Yi written by general Yuet Fei.

Buddy

12-04-2004, 08:46 PM

"That's not entirely accurate, Buddy. Most of what I know of him has come straight from his mouth, or he typed it himself. Harsh or not, the guy's misrepresenting himself."

B ull****. Actually you've heard nothing come str8 from his mouth right? If so when? And when did you step up and tell him?

"If you're having difficulty following the conversation you might think about staying out of it."

Ah, I see. Now you want to insult me? Please feel free to come and visit me. I have no trouble following your troll. So far you're dodging the issue. Step up.

"This is precisely what Painter has been invited to do; explain himself, and his actions on a public forum, so there's no confusion. I've "stepped up" and asked him some legitimate questions."

No, you've spit up what everyone else has digested. What gives you the right to ask? Step up.

"If his claims are true, there should be no problem here at all."

Fair enough. Now have the balls to ask him in person. If your aim is true you should have no problem here at all.

Samurai Jack

12-04-2004, 09:02 PM

BWAHHH HA Ha ha! Buddy, I was giving you the benifit of the doubt here, but your posts are degenerating into nonesense. Are you actually inviting me to travel across country to fight you? I'm sure that will prove that Painter isn't lying. I'm also sure that these lame a$$ challenges I see people issuing around here aren't worth the electricity used to send them.

At any rate, anyone has the right to ask anybody anything on a public board. You are expected to keep it relatively clean, however. You are even free to make a fool of yourself, which unfortunately appears to be the option you've taken.

Cool off Bud. We can agree to disagree.

Samurai Jack

12-04-2004, 09:32 PM

Here is a copy of the letter I have sent to Mr. Painter, hopefully he will respond:

Dear Sir,

Since you invited me to write you via e-mail, I will send an invitation to you. Please clearly explain what your intentions were when you chose to use the titles "Captain" and "Doctor" as official titles of your public persona. Like it or not, you elected to use military titles for your organization, and you use this title in all sorts of media without any explanation as to the true nature of the title. Also, I am interested in acertaining where you aquired your numerous college degrees. I believe that the best place for you to explain yourself would be on a public forum, for all to see. You must agree that it is very suspicious when someone claims to have legitimately acquired certain titles, then refuses to answer resonable questions about those titles. You had no compunctions about making those claims publicly, so why not answer the public's questions?

Sincerly,

Samurai Jack

SPJ

12-04-2004, 10:33 PM

Tai Chi B;

Practice of Ba Gua walk will help your health and Tai Ji.

Both Tai Ji and Ba Gua, the Qi started from Yung Quan Xue on your foot, travelling via Ren Du Er Mai all the way to the Bai Hui Xue on the top of the head.

Ba Gua walk is practicing to keep the Qi flow unobstructed from YQ to BH and back.

You gain health benefits.

I have been walking for twenty some years, I still continue to walk.

John Painter

12-04-2004, 10:34 PM

To Samurai Jack

Dear Sir,

Thank you for doing as I requested and writing to me off line. As you posted your offline message here I will do the same regarding this subject for the last time!

I have tried to give you the honest truth. If you read my previous posts I explained the Captain Painter ranking very clearly. I even invited you to come work with us free of charge at one of our PKC training sessions and I have also on the Forum explained the ranking system of the American Rangers company as clearly as possible in a rather long post.

I have also stated publicly that the ranking system we use and will continue to do so has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MILITARY in any way. The Texas Rangers and others use such a method and we honored them with their permission by copying their concepts. Yet still you persist with the accusations of my "giving myself a military rank. Also I have never claimed to have numerous college degrees. Only one Ph.D.

I appears when I do answer your questions on the public forum that you either do not read my replies fully or perhaps you do not want to believe what I say so my question is if you don’t like the answers why keep on asking? Is it that you have your own agenda to know your truth?

You asked me about teaching the Police and the American Rangers and I responded. Did you not read this..

QUOTE
>>“ARMLETI currently has had our methods of PKC for law enforcement based on Baguazhang taught to well over 30,000 police, DPS, Sheriff’s and other law enforcement officers in the United States. I am proud that a guy you all feel is such a big fake and showman has been selected to instruct the trainers of the Mansfield Sheriff’s office in Ohio who are responsible for teaching the court bailiffs and corrections officers who have to deal with violent inmates in prison settings without weapons.

I will also be attending this month a ceremony for the opening of a new law enforcement training facility in Ohio under the direction of Sgt. Rick Krausman defensive tactics trainer for the Mansfield Ohio sheriffs department. I am deeply honored that in the new facility will also be included the John Painter’s Garden a defensive tactics handgun training area based on the use of the nine posts Bagua training methods to develop footwork in gun battles. The entire facility will be open to all law enforcement officers and I am proud to have been able to do something practical and patriotic with my Baguazhang no matter where or from what lineage it came from.>>”

It seems you ignored this or discounted it also.

QUOTE
>>If you read my previous post you should see that I explained that I did not GIVE myself anything! We have testing criteria and we use the ranking system to indicate it. I know what I explained is true, you have only my word for it and that is all you will ever have so you can choose to believe it or not believe it and forever wonder. That is not my problem

As I said above I do not have the free time or inclination to argue the point. Everyone who hires us (and a great many do) knows exactly what we at ARMLETI are and what we do and how we do it and what our ranking system means and they are fine with the way things are set up. We do not try to be dishonest or hide anything from the departments that employ us. They judge us on the results and our repeat business shows that they are happy with what they receive.

They review our methods and choose to use them or not. Most choose to use them as they are in line with their needs. I hope you can understand that. If not so be it. I have answered your questions openly and honestly and you continue to want more and more. I have no intention to offend anyone or hide anything but at this point I choose to end these discussion instead of continuing to answer to faceless, nameless individuals on a discussion board who use juvenile monikers instead of their real names.>>” END QUOTE

I would have preferred to be friends with you and have an open discussion. My history and info as to whom I learned from is on my website and printed in numerous books and magazines. My teacher was a Chinese named Li, Long-dao Frank Li who said he was from Sichuan Province not that will give you any satisfaction.

I have attempted to be courteous and polite, but I am also very busy and do not have time for round and round discussions of a tired subject that I have addressed in public before. I offer you no challenge just a hand of friendship, I answer your questions and when I did you seemed to ignore or become inflamed by them and came back with more and more. So it appears to me you do have an agenda to prove yourself right and me wrong.

At the risk of wasting my time I will again say that I have been in business sucessfully teaching Chinese martial arts for well over 30 years. Many of the people running our 14 schools are high level martial arts people from other styles that after training with us wanted to teach primarily our system. Our company ARMLETI has been training police officers since around 1990 we are not doing just “in service” programs. For example we are on the payroll as trainers at the Mansfield Ohio training facility. Don’t you think they checked us out before using us for the past four years and before the named a wing of their new training facility to open next month in my honor bearing my name. That is easily verified by calling Sgt. Rick Krausman the tactical trainer at their office. I don’t know about your department but most of them do background checks on people the put on the payroll.

The human mind like a parachute works best when it is open I am sad to say that yours seems at least from your angry posts to be closed. I do not think you will ever get the answers you want to hear no matter what I tell you. I am sorry you choose to be offended by my answers or choices but really that is your choice.

However, on reflection I do feel that I am wasting my time with this as I am pretty well convinced that since you turned rapidly from a supporter to a detractor in the space of a few words over my telling you that I was not a Captain of the military service (which I never claimed to be and freely explained to anyone who asked) and explained that we used such titles for all our trainers I feel am simply throwing dust into your wind. I am pretty well convinced that even after this you will go on and on with other charges and challenges and get more upset when I do not answer you.

It would be good to get past all this and deal with how the arts are trained and practiced. I would like to share some of my ideas with members of this forum as we have a number of years experience in this work and as you have heard from other member I may have something to offer. However your predilection to obsess on my background and history would doubtless continue to interfere with an open discussion of methods and tactics and training. Sir, I do not have to explain myself to you or anyone else and frankly I do not owe you or anyone but my employers, students, close friends and family anything.

I had hoped we could rectify this and had considered answering all of your questions however after the way you have conducted yourself on the forum in the last few days I choose to be silent.
I would like to be your friend and not your enemy however that is your choice to be one or the other. And it seems that you want to hold me hostage to your own personal inquisition. So it seems you to want to be the other.

Now say or do what you like about me as I do not wish to continue the pointless discussion or answer any more of your questions, not because you have frightened me away or that I have anything to hide as those who know me personally already have the answers to all of your questions and many more. No, I will not answer you any further simply because you sir are too rude!

Sincerely

John P. Painter

Samurai Jack

12-05-2004, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by John Painter
Sir, I do not have to explain myself to you or anyone else and frankly I do not owe you or anyone but my employers, students, close friends and family anything.

This is true, however I appreciate you taking the time respond to my questions. I'm surprised that you are offended by people asking about your credentials, since surely you must understand the need to examine the claims made by teachers of our beloved arts. Pa Kua is not the only art that is threatened by the dilution that always seems to follow when unscrupulous individuals seek to make money by teaching an art they aren't qualified to teach. I expect you are aware that one of the common tactics of such individuals is to claim titles and ranks that they have not earned. I apologize if my tone turned overly combative.

Originally posted by John Painter
I had hoped we could rectify this and had considered answering all of your questions however after the way you have conducted yourself on the forum in the last few days I choose to be silent.
I would like to be your friend and not your enemy however that is your choice to be one or the other.

Good, consider it rectified. Please accept my apology for offending you. I am confident that everyone on this board appreciates your willingness to take time out of your busy schedule to address the concerns posted.

Buddy

12-05-2004, 09:35 AM

"Jack",
I think the quality of your character is reflected in your posting style. You don't need my help.

Ray Pina

12-06-2004, 06:56 AM

"Do you care more about the history or the skill, many teachers do not care to share their teachers names or history yet have very high level skills." --- Bamboo Leaf

I definitely care about the skill. Take for instance how I came to learn of my master. I heard of his name and was thinking of looking into it. By chance I came across one of his students and crossed hands with him and he drilled me time and time again -- I realised the technology was better.

I took the guy out for dinner a few times, got the invite, and then had the master throw me around himself.

When it comes to people I haven't met in person, who don't have video of them free figthing and I don't know anyone they have beaten, it's hard to tell what their skill level is.

So what can you do at this point? The best you can do is ask, "Who did you learn from?" This is never a substitute for crossing hands, but it's like asking for a picture of a girls mother before meeting her on a blind date. Get an idea.

bamboo_ leaf

12-06-2004, 08:19 AM

(Pa Kua is not the only art that is threatened by the dilution that always seems to follow when unscrupulous individuals seek to make money by teaching an art they aren't qualified to teach.)

people teach at all different levels, weather their unscrupulous or not I think one can only know after meeting them. Dilution, I also read this term a lot used with taiji. Its a funny term because it would suggest that the one using the term actually knows the art their talking about instead of looking for it.

The only qualifications are weather you choose a person over another, for what ever reasons you have, in the end we all tend to find what where looking for.

TaiChiBob

12-06-2004, 08:24 AM

Greetings..

Lineage? Suppose someone asked the Originator of Taiji about his lineage.. who did YOU learn from? he replies, uh, i developed this cool style of soft boxing, uh, like, uh, mind boxing.. holy crap, you say, who do you think you are, you can't just make things up!.. hmmmm.. I'm not comparing Mr. Painter to the originator(s) of Taiji, but lineage is secondary to results.. sort of like eating the best Mexican food ever and finding out the chef is French.. who cares, it's still the best Mexican food ever..

Be well...

SPJ

12-06-2004, 08:33 AM

Agreed on skills.

Ba Gua was used by imperial body guards.

Lineage fights or arguements are not there.

In China and Taiwan, everybody knows pretty much who is who.

There are research committee set up for each style of CMA.

There are government involved programs in public shools and all levels of government.

Such as Wushu or Tai Ji classes taught by known teachers in civic or culture centers.

They are grouped into phyical educations or physical cultures to be preserved.

Even in Chinese communities in US, I ran into a lot of Wushu or Tai Ji teachers from China. They are graduated from CMA programs in PE, either Bachelor or Master. They do not have PhD programs yet.

They are also trained in modern PE and some sports medicine, too.

All the books and videos are written or produced by lineage bearers.

The publishers are mostly either the local governments, research committee or universities.

And yes, there are also books and videos produced by private sectors.

Ray Pina

12-06-2004, 08:38 AM

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The funny thing is, my master has his own style, E-Chuan, and I'd normally run from something like this. I wouldn't even consider JKD because of this.

But I saw what I saw and felt what I felt. That is believing.

But when I got to know my master I learned he trained with some of the best in Ba Gua, Taiji and Hsing-I.

He has taken Hsing-I's power, Ba Gua's positioning and Taiji's absorption. Add to that principles from the Flying Dragon pole he learned, put that all together and it truly is something else, something different.

Now, this is the culmination of a 64 year old man who began his training at 5 years old. There's a lot in there. This wasn't a normal guy who woke up one day and got this from a dream. I'm guessing who ever invented Taiji, or any style, also had quite a suitable background.

This post has nothing to do with Mr. Painter. In fact, I feel quite bad that this man is taking such heat. If I was his student I'd be pretty upset. I hope he has some students that take his art serious and go out someday and make names for themselves.

That is my goal. In about three or four years I want to go out and promote the E-Chuan name. At this point, I'm stuck in the lab with the occasional un-official testing.

SPJ

12-06-2004, 08:41 AM

E Chuan is already popular in China, Taiwan, Singapore and Chinese communities in South east Asia.

SPJ

12-06-2004, 08:51 AM

I am from Taiwan.

I studied CMA with different teachers.

But people would know where my MA comes from right away.

Baji: Liu Yun Qiao-> teachers-> moi.

Liu He Tang Lang: Zhang Xian San-> teachers-> moi.

Tai Ji: practices with different teachers. Theories from Chen Fa Ke, Sun Lu Tang etc.

Cheng's Ba Gua: Dong Hai Zhuan-> Cheng Tin Hua-> teachers-> moi.

Did I meet any of the masters? Noooo.

But these are the courses I studied from. They are traceable.

Do we have our own interpretations and practices?

Absolutely.

Ray Pina

12-06-2004, 08:51 AM

That's I-Chuan or Y-Chuan.

This is E-Chuan

E= the character for the I-Ching (I believe)

E= Easy

E= Energy

E= Evolution

I-Chuan is a great example though. The inventor studied Hsing-I. That's where all that comes from. I respect it, but view it as Hsing-I cliff notes.

You don't say the father looks like the son. You say the son looks like the father.

SPJ

12-06-2004, 08:54 AM

OOPS.

Cool.

:D

MonkeySlap Too

12-06-2004, 11:14 AM

Yi Chuan is without a doubt influenced by Southern White Crane in addition to Xing-Yi. The Jing development clearly has a Fukien power structure built over Northern theories of relaxation and leading the Yi.

Just my opinion.

Chaz W

12-06-2004, 02:11 PM

Greetings Group,

This is Chaz Wodhard here. I just found this thread and Wow some of you guys have been really freaking over this John Painter thing. Glad to see if it calming down some. I have known Mr. Painter for well over ten years now and find him to be a most interesting sincere and polite person and an extremely good teacher of his methods.

Yeah, I am one of his students. At first for some years in his Kung Fu school, then I moved to Colorado and now I am a personal exercise trainer but I still train the Nine Dragon Baguazhang and Xing Yi Quan privately with him. I was involved with law enforcement for some time in the Tarrant County Texas area before becoming a personal trainer and I know that Mr. Painter’s stuff is real at least in how it functions on the street, cause before I ever met him as a teacher he saved my worthless ass one night when an arrest went south with a group of pumped up, drunked roided out football dudes tried to whup my ass and I had no backup. At the time I didn’t care if the dude was a Ph.D or Captain or what when the crap hit the flap and I needed help the dude stepped up and lowered the boom. I published this deal as a whole story before on another group if anyone wants to know.

It appears some of you guys don’t know much about him and his involvement in helping Chinese internal arts in the USA in the early years or about his very long and sometimes checkered background is show business and as a bodyguard. Well I got more on Mr. Painter from a front row seat, been in his school, home and office, seen the scrap books and certificates and I know the man as a real person who is passionate about his art, Family, friends and students. I just called him and found out He is preparing to be off to New York this week to teach in Manhattan this weekend so I doubt if he will be back on this forum anytime soon. I an’t gonna spew any dirt or betray any confidences so don’t ask me what he has chosen not to answer. His reasons are his own but I think he wants you to come see for yourself. I can shed some light on his promotion methods possibly as he taught them to be and **** I am making a living once again.

If you wanna know any more or I can help let me know although I think the best idea is to talk to the guy in person. He will probably be in a town near you some time soon. So go visit him and find out for yourself what he is really like. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Chaz Wodhard
www.chazwodhard@yahoo.com

BAI HE

12-06-2004, 07:10 PM

This isn't actually a love in but...

I was a rather big Painter detractor. My questions pertained
to lineage and authenticity. I am now rather convined that he knows what he knows. This guy Frank Li taught him the arts. Maybe at the time he learned them, all the **** (lineage, branch, etc.) was not so important.

Maybe these individuals were just looking to carve out a life here in the US.

The fact remains is that many people are happy and fulfilled studying with Mr. Painter. He charges nominal fees and has done a lot for the arts in general. If you don't like his stuff? Don't study with him. It's that easy.

As far as his gun stuff and ranger stuff? I can't judge. I live in a "Blue" state.
The guy has been polite and has mantained what he knows about Mr. Li. He's been open in the past to letting people come to his seminars for free to see what he's about.

Again, I'll vouch for what I've seen. A pretty good guy who takes a lot of **** and just does his best to promote his arts.
It's time to give this **** a rest or at least go meet the man and see what he has to offer. Videos and Magazine articles are a good reference, but not criteria to judge.

I see people praise my Grand Teacher Luo Dexiu's tapes (THEY DO RAWK), to me they are gold and may be the best available, but to see, work with and meet him in person?
A whole different dimension. Truly.

Samurai Jack

12-06-2004, 08:36 PM

I don't think anyone was critisizing his Pa Kua. It was his non-martial credentials that are suspiscious, and only since he isn't all that up front about them. It's a shame, really, because it means that people like me who think credentials are important are going to question him about it, instead of recognize him for his talent.

Chaz W

12-06-2004, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by BAI HE
This isn't actually a love in but...

The fact remains is that many people are happy and fulfilled studying with Mr. Painter. He charges nominal fees and has done a lot for the arts in general. If you don't like his stuff? Don't study with him. It's that easy.

Truly.

Originally posted by BAI HE
This isn't actually a love in but...

I am now rather convined that he knows what he knows. This guy Frank Li taught him the arts. Maybe at the time he learned them, all the **** (lineage, branch, etc.) was not so important.
Maybe these individuals were just looking to carve out a life here in the US.The fact remains is that many people are happy and fulfilled studying with Mr. Painter. He charges nominal fees and has done a lot for the arts in general. If you don't like his stuff? Don't study with him. It's that easy.

Hey Bai He,
That pretty much sums it up for me as well. I was fricking hard to convince about anything but when a dude comes outta the dark like that takes on three guys puts em down and helps me cuff a forth then freaking disappears into the dark again well I gotta know who this dude is. No he does’t prowl the streets, least I don’t think so, looking for guys to whip up on, the incident happened on a side street near his home at about 0100 hrs. He said he was doing his meditation exercise and heard the rukus and came down the alley saw me getting the stuffin beat outta me by four guys and just chipped in to help. It took me two weeks to find him again, he was training at 0001 in a park cross from his house with a huge ass Ba Gua sabre and so I got with him and I ain’t been sorry since.

I don’t care if smoke the bear taught him. I have seen lots of other styles and systems and this one does it for me. To each his own and that I think is his attitude also. One thing that is certain about training in Nine Dragon Bagua Zhang the way Shifu Painter has structured it. It is practical, it is clearly laid out and while it contains countless layers of nuance it is simple to follow. I used it summ in my law enforcement work although I never was part of his American Rangers group because the really got into it national like and I got out of law enforcement before 9-11 but I have used what I learned and am learning in civilian life in dealing with both mental and physical conflicts and it has served me extremely well. The qi gong part of the system is really cool and you get a great feeling from it right away plus I almost never get sick anymore.

One of the things Mr. Painter insists on in the martial art training of Nine Dragon is that in terms of it being a fighting method you gotta be able to test the structure and power of every single posture and movement that is be able to make it generate power from structure and the mind together or it ain’t worth a hill a beans. His art is structured so it leads you through things from one step to the next. For example in the student manual they publish is says that in Nine Dragon Bagua Zhang we first sit then stand then shift then walk and then circle and finally apply the methods. Applications come in stages starting with simple up to complex and there is lots of training of both internal and external energies using the body and also equipment. It is a really well designed method. I think if you meet him and talk to him you will understand a lot more than just typin in the dark. I gotta thank you for sayin it straight and being upfront .

Chaz W.

Chaz W

12-06-2004, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I don't think anyone was critisizing his Pa Kua. It was his non-martial credentials that are suspiscious, and only since he isn't all that up front about them. It's a shame, really, because it means that people like me who think credentials are important are going to question him about it, instead of recognize him for his talent. \

Hi Jack,
You don't have to recognize him for his talent. Your idea seems to be that if someone doen't answer your questions or seems like they are avoiding your questions that this in some way disqualifies a guy from being recognized for his talent, yeah well that is your idea and that is the way it is for you. It ain't exactly the idea of most of those who know him as students or are close to him in person so like the other guys on here have said, We said enough about it and I hope you are not starting it all up again cause you are missing out on some really good stuff from a really good guy who has a bunch to offer this forum.

As I said I have know him for some time and have no problems with his credentials, which by the way I do know about and have checked out and it is all fine with me and I guess I am sorry it is not square with Hoyle with you cause he won't answer you for his own reasons. Meet the guy in person and make a call in your heart after that, But hey let's not go there again.

Chaz W

Samurai Jack

12-06-2004, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Chaz W
\
Meet the guy in person and make a call in your heart after that, But hey let's not go there again.

Chaz W

Agreed.

Ray Pina

12-07-2004, 07:48 AM

Where will Mr. Painter demonstrate this weekend? Is it open to the public?

Chaz W

12-07-2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Where will Mr. Painter demonstrate this weekend? Is it open to the public?

Hi Evolution Fist,

My teacher is in New York training one of his study groups in Manhattan area. If you write to thegompa@aol.com I am sure Mr. Leach the office Mgr will send you the info. Shifu mentioned to me that he had heard of you as being involved with practical sword training and I am sure he would really want to meet you and talk about that and your ideas. He and Mr. Adam Hsu in San Francisco worked with each other long time ago on Chinese sport fencing ideas and I know he also has fenced Chinese methods with real blades with Mr. George Xu and the late Brendain Lai who fenced both Chinese and European style. He is really into promoting realistic Chinese fencing to help as he puts it "restore the lost skills of sword work that modern Wushu has ignored or forgotten."
So give them an e mail and I am sure Shifu Painter would be thrilled to meet with you sir.

Chaz W

Chaz W

12-08-2004, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Where will Mr. Painter demonstrate this weekend? Is it open to the public?

Hey Evolution Fist,

I talked to Mr. Leach at The Gompa office. He said that the workshop is open for students of Ba Gua , however Dr. Painter told him that as you were an instructor he would be glad to allow you to attend or visit with you before the program on friday perhaps at lunch or during the program or anytime during a break. The Host is Joshua Craig and if you email to the link I put up in the other post he will contact them to expect you. I also went to your website and also sent them your email address and phone number.

Mr. Leach said that Dr. Painter has sent you several personal emails in the past to that address about meeting with him but that you never responded?
So sir with all respect the ball is in your court if you wanna visit with him I know you will be warmly recieved as are any internal art teachers as a fellow instructor.
Chaz W

Chaz W

12-08-2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Chaz W
Hey Evolution Fist,

I talked to Mr. Leach at The Gompa office. He said that the workshop is open for students of Ba Gua , however Dr. Painter told him that as you were an instructor he would be glad to allow you to attend or visit with you before the program on friday perhaps at lunch or during the program or anytime during a break. The Host is Joshua Craig and if you email to the link I put up in the other post he will contact them to expect you. I also went to your website and also sent them your email address and phone number.

Mr. Leach said that Dr. Painter has sent you several personal emails in the past to that address about meeting with him but that you never responded?
So sir with all respect the ball is in your court if you wanna visit with him I know you will be warmly recieved as are any internal art teachers as a fellow instructor.
Chaz W

Dear Mr. Pina,
I screwed up in my last post. Dr. Painter called me all stern like and informed me that a friend who read this group saw my post and it was your teacer Shifu David Bon Chan that he had invited with a private e mail to attend or visit with him.
So I am gulty of reading too fast on the forum and since your profile has no name on and I did not see the earlie one where you signed a name plus there is a link to your teachers site, well you may see where I made them mistake in thinking you were him. I apologize to you and your teacher for any misunderstanding and to my teacher for not checking the facts before I shot off my mouth. So if you Mr. Pina live in NY then why not go yourself and visit with my Shifu this weekend if you like. I am sure he would like to meet you also.
Sorry for the screwup.
Chaz W
:D :D