Shoulder strikes

[fragbot]

Mornin' all--

Lately, I've been playing alot with smacking people using the shoulder. Of the two shoulder strikes I practice, I get great power from one (the foream folds vertically across your body) and awful power from the other (the arm spirals outward horizontally from the body; dunno if it's a bad choice for guys w/ape arms, I don't have the range of motion, or I'm just doing it wrong).

Anyhow, I have a few items worthy of discussion:

1) what other types of shoulder strikes have you come across in your training (I've been told 5 more exist in the xingyi I train)?

2) what training methods do you have?

My answer: mostly cooperative shoulder-to-shoulder partner work (stepping and stationary; conceptually similar to a six stars drill) and bag work.

3) how effective do you believe they are?

My answer: particularly useful for unbalancing and uprooting. Also useful because they're a technique most people find unfamiliar.

[Shaolin-Do]

"surprisingly useful for unbalancing and uprooting"

Thats mostly what I use em for...
That and in the clinch, put it in the solar plexus while hooking the leg for a nasty takedown...

[norther practitioner]

The one I practice looks like a backhand strike, it is dependent on getting position by stepping in low and getting your front foot at least even with their's....

[truewrestler]

In MMA I've seen them effective on the ground... and I've seen them attempted standing in the clinch.

I can't imagine they would be effective standing without the clinch.

[norther practitioner]

Not too effective unless you're in the clinch or transitioning in very close quarters.

[Ray Pina]

always in close quarters, no?;)

[Suntzu]

2) what training methods do you have?
My answer: mostly cooperative shoulder-to-shoulder partner work (stepping and stationary; conceptually similar to a six stars drill) and bag work.
good idea… shoulder strikes ca also be effective in the'clinch' to crate distance to continue using your hands… on takedowns and shoots to off balance… how about when practicing throws and shoots instead off completing the throw itself… focus on the strike and unbalancing effects...

[SevenStar]

off balancing. shoulders and throws work well together in many cases.

[Judge Pen]

I'm a big fan of shoulder strikes, torso strikes, and hip strikes. Anything that can be used to uproot and knock someone's balance off.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i like them, i've used them, but it's not something you get to do all the time.

if your not getting enough power try to make sure your stepping through them (between their legs if possible) to take their space and you're sinking into it. most of the power comes from the sinking not the leaning. sometimes i don't bother leaning into it at all ... just step through more and sink more.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

misread that a little bit ... see that your getting good power from the first, but what exactly do you mean by "the arm spirals outward horizontally from the body" in the second?

[FatherDog]

The shoulder has a lot of padding and not much hard striking surface. In addition, there aren't a lot of muscles meant to propel the shoulder itself forward (or back) with much force, and what muscles there are are difficult to work.

In short, I'd say that if you have the opportunity to strike with the shoulder, go for it, but don't go trying to set up shoulder strikes. You'd be better served setting up better strikes with your hands or elbows.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by FatherDog
The shoulder has a lot of padding and not much hard striking surface. In addition, there aren't a lot of muscles meant to propel the shoulder itself forward (or back) with much force, and what muscles there are are difficult to work.


You clearly never trained Xing Yi, you have no idea of what shoulders can do
Get back to your thigh grabbing, you dont know XY striking

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Suntzu

good idea… shoulder strikes ca also be effective in the'clinch' to crate distance to continue using your hands… on takedowns and shoots to off balance… how about when practicing throws and shoots instead off completing the throw itself… focus on the strike and unbalancing effects...

Expanding on your idea, how about hitting with the shoulder, catching them and yanking back. . .lather, rinse, repeat. All designed to whiplash the s*** out of them.

Dunno if it's viable or not, but I like it as a mind experiment.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
misread that a little bit ... see that your getting good power from the first, but what exactly do you mean by "the arm spirals outward horizontally from the body" in the second?

I knew when I wrote that it was incoherent, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it. Maybe time will free me tongue. . .

On your lead leg side, raise your arm until it's perpendicular to your body and then turn it downwards to orient your shoulder to the front.

Was that explanation less convoluted?

[Laughing Cow]

fragnot.

Also have a look at how TJQ utilises the shoulder, hip and similar.

Cheers.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by FatherDog
The shoulder has a lot of padding and not much hard striking surface. In addition, there aren't a lot of muscles meant to propel the shoulder itself forward (or back) with much force, and what muscles there are are difficult to work.


in judo's kiba dachi or [WV]ing[CTsTz]un's goat-riding stances, I'd agree whole-heartedly. However, these aren't issues for xingyi santi. So I'd find persuasive the argument that they work poorly with certain body orientations. Likewise, I agree with others that they're strictly a close quarters technique.

Let me frame striking in a manner I suspect will be new to you (NOTE: I'm not being pejorative at all)--you always hit people with your whole body and the striking surface merely delivers energy for your body. How would this mindset affect your statement, "there aren't a lot of muscles meant to propel the shoulder itself forward (or back) with much force, and what muscles ther are are difficult to work?"



In short, I'd say that if you have the opportunity to strike with the shoulder, go for it, but don't go trying to set up shoulder strikes. You'd be better served setting up better strikes with your hands or elbows.

It's simply a matter of the right tool for the job. Are punches useful when you're 4 inches away and your hands are occupied? I'd say they're equally as useful as a shoulder strike from 3 feet away.

As an aside, I also train Japanese JJ. I once told a new guy with a bunch of prior training, "from there, I'll just hit you with my hip." His para-phrased answer, "there's no way you can hurt me with your hip." Since I'm mostly a prideful pr***, what do you suppose I did next?

*chuckle* To his credit, he grinned about the whole thing and sorta apologized with a "I'll hafta remember that". . .come to think of it, maybe he meant payback's a bi***.

[Golden Arms]

Fragbot..you going to be around this weekend? I may have some time to work out on Sat.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
Fragbot..you going to be around this weekend? I may have some time to work out on Sat.

I sent y'all another one earlier as well.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by fragbot
Let me frame striking in a manner I suspect will be new to you (NOTE: I'm not being pejorative at all)--you always hit people with your whole body and the striking surface merely delivers energy for your body.

It's not new to me; I box.



How would this mindset affect your statement, "there aren't a lot of muscles meant to propel the shoulder itself forward (or back) with much force, and what muscles ther are are difficult to work?"


I misspoke a little there; I was thinking more of the range of movement of the shoulder than pure muscular power generation.

You generate power with your body, but some striking surfaces are inherently better than others. The shoulder is pretty well padded and has no single point of hardness to deliver force with, so your force is inevitably going to be dissipated significantly more than with a fist strike or an elbow strike, even if you can put the exact same amount of power behind it - and I think the range of motion inhibits putting the same amount of power behind it.



It's simply a matter of the right tool for the job. Are punches useful when you're 4 inches away and your hands are occupied? I'd say they're equally as useful as a shoulder strike from 3 feet away.


I'd say that if you're 4 inches away, you'd be better served to either step closer and clinch, or step further and use an elbow, which will be inherently more effective than a shoulder.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't practice 'em a lot, but I've been known (when the opportunity arises) to jolt an opponent in the jaw with a sort of shrug. It's never going to KO anyone, but it makes a little space in a close - and clumsy - clinch. What's more, if they REALLY don't know what they're doing (a high probability of that, if you can actually get 'em like this) they might bite their tongue, too.:eek:

[Xebsball]

sorry to inform you, but boxing does not use the same amount of body as xing yi, this is OBVIOUS on the footwork patterns

you dont know xing yi, you dont know shoulder strikes, all you know is your little boxing and your thigh grabbing, so stick to those

a shoulder strike DOES work and DOES damage, if you didnt know that its cos... yeah you dont do xing yi

"I'd say that if you're 4 inches away, you'd be better served to either step closer and clinch, or step further and use an elbow, which will be inherently more effective than a shoulder."

Bullsh!t, the shoulder strike will create you MORE space, allowing you back to striking range - in wich you will begin using your other weapons whatever. Yes the elbows are great and they will do damage, but if you want to create tactical space (range change) the shoulders are way to go. This extra space you can even use to set up takedwons too.

Clinching would only be better if thats the case you are a thigh grabber, if thats your case ok.

BUT, its fine if you want to be a complete idiot and ignore this effective natural weapon, jesus wont judge you for that

[truewrestler]

:rolleyes:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Xebsball
sorry to inform you, but boxing does not use the same amount of body as xing yi, this is OBVIOUS on the footwork patterns


I never tried to say anything about xing yi, since I've never studied it. All I said was that boxing uses the whole body to strike, which is quite true. Since you've never studied boxing, please do me the courtesy of shutting up about it, like I have about Xing Yi.



a shoulder strike DOES work and DOES damage, if you didnt know that its cos... yeah you dont do xing yi


I never suggested that they wouldn't work or wouldn't do damage. I suggested that they are inherently less effective than strikes with other portions of your body, due to certain physical realities, and the time spent using one would be better spent setting up a more effective strike.

[Merryprankster]

I might also point out that Boxing and wrestling use shoulder strikes to create distance to punch and manipulate balance.

FatherDog,

Don't worry about Xebs. Half the time he's super cool. Half the time he's being a *****. Or, he thinks he's funny and I just don't get it. :D

LOL at "Let me tell you a little about using your whole body for power generation."

Like they've got a monopoly on it or something....

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i pi ssed in xebs cheerioes. sorry.

[yenhoi]

GDA you know nothing about pi ssing in cherios, you dont do XY!

What an asz.

;)

[fragbot]

You generate power with your body, but some striking surfaces are inherently better than others. The shoulder is pretty well padded and has no single point of hardness to deliver force with, so your force is inevitably going to be dissipated significantly more than with a fist strike or an elbow strike, even if you can put the exact same amount of power behind it - and I think the range of motion inhibits putting the same amount of power behind it.


Agree and disagree. Does a fist or elbow deliver power concentrated on a smaller area? Absolutely. On the other hand, is there more force behind a punch or elbow than there is a shoulder? Nope. This is particularly true in a very close range.

The power generation isn't a range of motion issue. It's a number of joints and body structure issue.



I'd say that if you're 4 inches away, you'd be better served to either step closer and clinch, or step further and use an elbow, which will be inherently more effective than a shoulder.


I'd say it depends on what you're trying to accomplish as well as the situation.