What Actually took place? Bruce Lee and the WC stance.

[PaulH]

I read sometimes ago that Bruce came back to HK to visit Yip Man. While there at YM's kwool, the old man had his students tested Bruce's JKD. Bruce seemed to think that he totally confused and devastated his stationary WC brethrens with his rapid moving footworks and attacks. A WC person living in HK at that time told me that was not possible as Bruce was still a young student of WSL and that his skills were not that advanced yet to defeat his WC opponents (stillness overcomes motion). Was Bruce deluded? And on a side note, why do you favor being stationary or moving in a fight? Just looking for interesting feedbacks and perspectives.

Regards,

[chen zhen]

I don't think that story has taken place. but that is not the point.
maybe this article could help answer your questions:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ray.d8/article13.html
;)

[hunt1]

Delusion is all to common in martial arts. Many do not understand when someone is being polite and not taking their head off. Look at Chi Sao how often is a polite stop of the fist a couple of inches away from the face rewarded with a cheap shot hit . This leads to instant delusion he didnt hit me but i hit him mentality that is all to common. Bruce was young and human. Would be surprised if he didnt take this attitude a little.

[PaulH]

Chen Zhen, I read the articles before, but they are still refreshing to read now. Thank You.

Hunt1, I think you may have underestimated Bruce. Bruce had somethings new and quite unexpected to most WC people. You can see from the articles above that he mentioned about different kicking and punching angles that most WCers are not familiar with. He also knew the WC mindset well and can manipulate it to his advantages very skillfully. It is plausible that Bruce may have actually fooled Yip Man's students at the time of his visit considering his fantastic speed that even Wong acknowledged as well as his other powerful attributes and skills. The only reason that he could not do so well against Wong was perhaps Wong knew his game before and thus can expect his unexpected attacks and counters. I'm not sure about the others who don't know Bruce as well as Wong.

Regards,

[russellsherry]

hi guys, that story came, from mito , uheharas book on bruce lee by ohara , i dont think its true, as , in honk kong they dont spar like we would , i mean in the western, way of doing things, also regarding footwork, if you , dont move in a streetfight , you will get your head, knocked off. Footwork is one of the keys, to make your wing chun work. peace and regards russellsherry

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by hunt1
Look at Chi Sao how often is a polite stop of the fist a couple of inches away from the face rewarded with a cheap shot hit . This leads to instant delusion he didnt hit me but i hit him mentality that is all to common.

This should be printed and handed to every new WC student at the door, before s/he gets a chance to change into uniform for the first time.

As for Bruce Lee, he was a marketer of his own image. I'm surprised there isn't a copywrite symbol beside his name.

[Frank Exchange]

>> Look at Chi Sao how often is a polite stop of the fist a couple of inches away from the face rewarded with a cheap shot hit . This leads to instant delusion he didnt hit me but i hit him mentality that is all to common. <<

:confused: Why stop a couple of inches away from the face? Why not just tap them on the chin as a matter of course? Then, if they still dont appreciate that theyve been hit, tap harder. Or explain that you are letting them off lightly.

[S.Teebas]

Hunt1, I think you may have underestimated Bruce. Bruce had somethings new and quite unexpected to most WC people.

hi paul,

Thats the biggest load of garbage ive ever heard in my life! Whats so new about Bruse?? OK so i can agree he was great at what he did. But to say no-one ever did anything like that is totatlly an opinion and NOT based on factual evidence. Who's to say some guy practicing in the forest in china didnt think of that before????????????

He's good, and he's REAL good...but he's not GREAT in the way IP man was. IP Man DEDICATED his life to a system and BECAME WING CHUN! He aint no gap filler with what he saw fit. Let face it, generations of analytical study really are somthing we need to treasure and find those hidden gems, they exist if we have the patience and fortitude to discover them.

[Ernie]

s.teebas
IP Man DEDICATED his life to a system and BECAME WING CHUN
he was also very dedicated to opium so are you going to praise that as well,

they were both just men that feel into the right place and right time in history to have an impact ,
in the grand scheme one would not have shined with out the other , at least not to the level that they are seen now ,

i never stood infront of bruce but by why of watching his body , speed ,power timing and skill were of a very high degree , he simply worked harder and smarter then most ,

all we have from yip are stories ,

either way there realationship inspired millions and that is what counts .

i would be equally blessed to spend time chatting and training with either

[TenTigers]

The only reason we all think Bruce Lee was so great is because the techniques and concepts he showed were completely unknown to gwailo at that time, but were common knowledge to Gung-Fu practitioners of all styles-not just Wing Chun. Things like simultaneous block/strike, chi-sao, inch power,intercepting intention (jeet), etc. Nothing new. Bruce was definately gifted with physical speed, which coupled with perceptual speed and reactive speed gave the impression that he was superhuman to most kick/punch martial artists, but in Hong Kong, with his Si-Hings, he was just Bruce. Of course he was the real deal, and his movies were groundbreaking in terms of choreography, content, intensity, and camera angles. But as far as real Gung-Fu is concerned, he was certainly no innovator. (That isn't to say he still doesn't inspire me, he will always be a hero)

[PaulH]

Hi S. Teebas,

Thank you for your feedback. I like to clarify a point on my quote. If Bruce is alive today, I think Bruce would agree with me that while his stuffs are influenced by WC concepts in their beginning, they have been evolved into some strange mutated JKDish species. Ha! Ha! It is precisely his weird twist on the familiar WC concepts or skills that most WC people are not familiar with. Would you say that Bruce fight like a WC person?

"No great advance has ever been made in science, politics, or religion, without controversy. - Lyman Beecher"

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H. sez:

"No great advance has ever been made in science, politics, or religion, without controversy. - Lyman Beecher"
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"many a controversy has produced much heat but little light"-
joy chaudhuri

[yuanfen]

Paul H. sez:

"No great advance has ever been made in science, politics, or religion, without controversy. - Lyman Beecher"
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"many a controversy has produced much heat but little light"-
joy chaudhuri

[yuanfen]

In response to a reference to Ip Man- someone says:

he was also very dedicated to opium so are you going to praise that as well,


all we have from yip are stories ,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor form to bring up his personal life... a non sequitur.
Without Ip Man- the poster's or his sifu's exposure to wing chun
would not be.

[PaulH]

True enough what you said,
"many a controversy has produced much heat but little light"-
joy chaudhuri

But don't discount the grumbles that you hear. Ha! Ha!
Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress.
- Thomas Alva Edison

Regards,

[Ernie]

joy
Poor form to bring up his personal life... a non sequitur.
and with out the air i couldn't breath but sometimes the air stinks and this is a reality .
to not accept the entire truth is to believe in a half lie ,
i was just making a point to some one that was trying to dis credit bruces accomplishments and then put yip on a pedistool like his $#hit didn't stink . well guess what every body is human nothing special and everybodies $#hit stinks .
it's a persons drive and accomplishments beyond there flaws that gives birth to inspiration ,
and in the inspiriation and accomplish dept yip couldn't hold a candle to bruce ,
but there is a symbiotic relationship , with out yip there may have never been a bruce .
it goes on through time as a chain of passing on and experimenting with information , no one is greater then the other they were just in the right place at the right time with the ability to fill a need in the general populace
but the true dicredit is to make the person into something he was not , yip was a addict , yet he still left something great behind , he screwed up wing chun by fragmenting how he taught it and custimizing it per certain students , this left room for different interpitations and look at us today pointing fingers and making claims ,
bruce was a ego maniac , with poor eye sight , one short leg , and only one terstical dropped , these flaws drove him to greatness , in 9 short years he changed minds all over the world , about race , training,and how to look at your self and stirde for constant improvement ,

if either of these men would have been born in a different time they might have been over looked . but lucky for us they were not .
so to deny who the were as complete and flawed hman beings is to deny what the scope of there achievements .

heroes are images ,
it's the real people behind the image that truly inspires .

[Third Degree]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog

As for Bruce Lee, he was a marketer of his own image. I'm surprised there isn't a copywrite symbol beside his name.


I've been informed that certain Bruce Lee fan clubs have had to shut down cause they didn't get permission to use his image from his wife, Linda Lee Cadwell. Bit of a sad state of affairs but what can you do in this image-rights obsessed world?

[anerlich]

Let face it, generations of analytical study really are somthing we need to treasure and find those hidden gems, they exist if we have the patience and fortitude to discover them.

Question - why are the gems always hidden? Why are the origins shrouded in mystery? Why has the alleged relationship between WC, White Crane, Emei 12 Zhuang always hidden behind a cloud of ignorance and obfuscation?

Wouldn't the "generations of analytical study" have been much more productive if people just shared what they knew?

IMO patience and fortitude are the gems. The rest of the "hidden knowledge" crap is just marketing and ego, and the fodder of second-rate HK cinema.

If instructors told their students, "there are no secrets, you just have to train the basics REALLY REALLY hard," they wouldn't look as cool or have so many starry-eyed disciples, would they?

JKD, BJJ (both mature enough now to incorporate the said "generations of analytical study") and their ilk are slowly choking TMA out because everything is shared, everything is tried out and proved or disproved in public, and there is none of this "hdden gems" rubbish.

[Third Degree]

Originally posted by Ernie
s.teebas
IP Man DEDICATED his life to a system and BECAME WING CHUN
he was also very dedicated to opium so are you going to praise that as well,


Yip Man was an opium smoker by all accounts but it makes you think if drugs are really that bad when his skill level was so high. I bet some of you out there are nowhere near half as good as Yip Man and you're not even on drugs!!!




i would be equally blessed to spend time chatting and training with either [/B]


Too right. A lot of people have gotten wealthy off the backs of Yip Man and Bruce Lee. All those karate schools in the 1970s full to the brim with students must've thanked Bruce Lee many times over!

Hell, Bruce Lee will always be linked with Wing Chun and he got his skill from Yip Man, who got his skill from Leung Bik and Chan Wah Shun (if I remember correctly!). Bruce Lee only ever had one Sifu and that was Yip Man despite claims to the contrary.

Like many others, I was a Bruce Lee fan when I was young and was amazed by his physical attributes and his kung fu philosophy. As I've grown up, the amazement has worn off somewhat as you get to see what real kung fu is.

Bruce Lee's public criticism of martial arts and combining martial arts into his own "system" was new to the West but nothing really new in China - Wang Xiang Zhai, to name but one, did these things before Bruce Lee.

All said and done, Bruce Lee will still hold a special place among my DVD collection!!

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Third Degree
All said and done, Bruce Lee will still hold a special place among my DVD collection!!

I feel the same way about Asia Carerra.

[Third Degree]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog


I feel the same way about Asia Carerra.


Praise the lord, you hairy handed fiend! Ya will burn in the fires of hell where you will be joined by the likes of Asia Carrera, Kobe Tai, Jenna Jameson, Raylene and so on!! You might smile at this thought but you won't see these ladies with your eyes as you'll be blind from all that hairy handed activity!! Repent my sinner, praise the lord! :)

I hope you watch Asia Carrera for the educational value of her performances and not just to stare at her fangita.

[Ernie]

there are no secrets
anerlich,

oh please don't burst my bubble , im developing my chi so i can make my meridien line generate heat and transfer it dan tien and then my iron palm will crush may enemy with my knowledge of dim mak
i t will take a life time but i will be a master just as long as i can keep paying my sifu and so on and so on and so on


he man good post , striaght out , the way it should be said and done,
if bruce promoted anything it was the elimination of styles cus they seperate man, and prevent knowledge . it's all just body mechanics , and attributes , hard work and testing , all the mystical mumbo jumbo should be left in the shaw brothers movies with the deadly venoms ,


Bruce Lee's public criticism of martial arts and combining martial arts into his own "system" was new to the West but nothing really new in China - Wang Xiang Zhai, to name but one, did these things before Bruce Lee.

bruce never claimed to be the first he just did it better by crossing racial barriers and introduceing western training aids , hell he was the first one to impliment circut training over 25 years ago ,
he had instinct and drive to test things in the face of the nay sayers
if i could only share the reels of 8mm training and seminars of him i have seen, you would see it in a different light ,
but d amn them law suits

[Sui]

i'd like to ask:in his films why didn't bruce lee show any wing chun when he practices alone in say,way of the dragon?eg sil lim tao or tan sao etc?

[yylee]

What I don't understand the most about uncle Bruce is that why he went back to Yip Man and asked for his wooden dummy teaching. Was he still hungry for some traditional, all secret, well hidden gems from the old man? Thought he never needed anything else from WC after JKD was found.

[anerlich]

What I don't understand the most about uncle Bruce is that why he went back to Yip Man and asked for his wooden dummy teaching. Was he still hungry for some traditional, all secret, well hidden gems from the old man?

I guess he might have thought YM might still have some info valuable to him. I would imagine you would have in his position. Did he ever say he has surpassed YM and thus YM had nothing to teach him? I think not.




Thought he never needed anything else from WC after JKD was found.

If that door were closed to him (and for what good reason? Would YOU have suffered gladly in BL's position?), he might have had to seek other means to reach his goals. He didn't "need" Yip Man's "secret, well hidden gems", he found ways to get by without them. The fact that he did manage quiet well without the "hidden teachings" must call their veracity, maybe even existence, into question.

William Cheung comes close to contending that BL had to develop JKD because he had only learned part of the "modified" YMWC system, which was of course deficient, but being the brilliant dude he was, managed to plug the holes with other stuff.

Ididn't believe that either. More likely IMO is that the "secret, well hidden gems" JUST AREN'T THAT IMPORTANT.

[yylee]

anerlich

thanks for your comments. I know some WCK people believe that their WC will come to a quantum leap forward after learning the wooden dummy. I was wondering if this was what uncle Bruce had in mind when he approached the old man. Perhaps he saw a barrier of some sort and he needed a guiding light ... just perhaps.

[Ernie]

i'd like to ask:in his films why didn't bruce lee show any wing chun when he practices alone in say,way of the dragon?eg sil lim tao or tan sao etc?

god no ,
no forms but there was still chi sau but it was different in the sense that there was a lot more body mechanic and twist to the actions , very explosive he hathe ability drop people on the fiest action , he also incor[erated a lot of kicking and looked to be high low high , with full body change on the elevation, also i saw some over hands and hooks from boxing as he stepped off line , but most impressive was his foot work and timing when he was sparring he couls intercept and break rythem like no one i have ever seen the nearest would be roy jones the way he can just close the gap with pure timing and decetive footwork and angles , alot of the stuff he pulled off required a great deal of athletisim, not for the regular guy, in some situations his approach would be wrong or risky but he had the awarness to pull it off .
the lecture and depth of his understanding was also very impressive , he was always makeing sure that the individuals attributes were more important then anything else develop yourself as yourself was a quote i remember but the audio was bad .





What I don't understand the most about uncle Bruce is that why he went back to Yip Man and asked for his wooden dummy teaching. Was he still hungry for some traditional, all secret, well hidden gems from the old man?

simple bruce kept the dummy training up into the end , and at that time he was still very much interested in wing chun , he evolved in the next few years . but after yip mans refusal he didn't mention wing chun anymore ,

but get realistic tons of people have been taught those little gems and none have achieved any great skill so it's not in the ''gems'' it's in the individual and the appliccation and personal experience plus a commitment that brings achievement,
talking is easy doing that's another thing all together .

[yylee]

Originally posted by Ernie
simple bruce kept the dummy training up into the end , and at that time he was still very much interested in wing chun , he evolved in the next few years . but after yip mans refusal he didn't mention wing chun anymore ,

what? skipping Bil Jee and jump into Wooden Dummy? then call it the end (just a joke :) )



but get realistic tons of people have been taught those little gems and none have achieved any great skill so it's not in the ''gems'' it's in the individual and the appliccation and personal experience plus a commitment that brings achievement,
talking is easy doing that's another thing all together .

then why bother learning a dead set of wooden dummy drills? ;)

[Ernie]

bil jee that's funny
how many people know bil jee in this world and still suck, like that's spme great baarrier or acomplishment .
ooooooohhhhhhh run for the hills it's the bil jee master .look out gracies look out shamrock bul je is in the house
that doesn't even deserve a real responce .

the dummy is a training tool that is only as alive or dead as the person training on it .
you can frestyle it or follow a set pattern or break down a single action, he was a perfectionist and obsesive work out guy , he worked the dummy like it is supposed to be worked the never tireing training partner , a second coach , he was clever enough to redesighn the dummy for his size and power .
he thought out of the box ,
but golly gee if he only knew bil gee .

wait i know bil gee , i can rule the world thank you for enlightening me

[Ernie]

i was jokeing as well couln't help myself good night :)

[yylee]

>>how many people know bil jee in this world and still suck, like that's spme great baarrier or acomplishment

"know"? to what degree?


>>he was clever enough to redesighn the dummy for his size and power .

oh may be he was just trying to share his out-of-the-box dummy set with YM, LOL!

that puzzles me more, Bruce managed to think out of the box, why going back to the old box...


sweet dreams anerlich, Ernie..... zz zz zz

[russellsherry]

ok guys , a few, jkd people, always, make a big deal, on how bruce, told sifu ted wong not to do dummy chi sau, this is no big deal, what they fail to realise, is bruce lee , went thourgh the basic training, understood when to use, sensativatey and he could, use what he had when he wanted to , i have always said all bruce did was box againist gung fu people, use wing chun againist karate people and boxers or street fighters remember using no way as way in taught in high level of bill jee, bill used olny for emergancy becuase it teaches to go outside what normal you would do i think bruce lee was very smart in what he did for his time peace russell sherry

[KenWingJitsu]

I really really really like this new & improved politically incorrect Ernie.

lol.

Preach on brother. We gotta hook up soon.

[[Censored]]

wait i know bil gee , i can rule the world thank you for enlightening me

You know, there is a Chinese idiom, "With one good technique you can conquer the world." Compare that to Bruce Lee's training methods. And compare those to the current popular wisdom. With ten mediocre techniques, you can appear on cable television!

[Ernie]

ken
Preach on brother. We gotta hook up soon
i might be open this sat. thinking of getting together with andrew again after my regular class . pm me

censored
You know, there is a Chinese idiom, "With one good technique you can conquer the world." Compare that to Bruce Lee's training methods

in the end bruce was narrowing it down to ane eye jab and a groin kick , but that one good technique fortune cookie stuff , only fly's after you have been through a complete range of attribute developmwent and training experience , so you have developed the proper speed , timing ,distance , and so on to pull off that one good technique with any level of consistancy ,
and bruce was dead on about that . leave the old sayings for those that lack honest work and honest assesment of there individual strengths and weaknesses
no need to swim through all that cryptic dialogue , you work it test it and refine it , then you got it anything else should be left for the movies

[PaulH]

My thanks to all your interesting posts. I like to draw your attention back to the original side question which Russell answered in part. It is what would you do if you have to fight against someone who is a skilled fighter? Would you stay still and wait for someone with Bruce Lee's skills and calibers to move in attacking, or would you move around to distract his aims? What is your strategy in each case?

Regards,

[Ernie]

skilled in which way and [ had to fight ] in which way

street /ring/ friendly match

all these things can also change in a instant , just be adaptable and aware

[PaulH]

Okay, I just wish that there maybe such a thing as stonewall jackson in WC. You know like "be unmovable like a mountain". Do you remember any classic samurai duels in Kurosawa movies? The samurai waited and stroke his sword of doom to the charging foes, etc.

Regards,

[Ernie]

to be that stable you need a active mind and experience in intercepting , or else your just a sitting duck , anyone with quicker initiation speed or better footwork will just pot shot you all day ,
there is no one way or one greater attribute .
true speed kills , but speed with out power and stability is lacking , power with out speed and timing will never reach the target .
you need all atribiutes well balanced to have true adaptability or else your a lop sided fighter

[PaulH]

I like your answer. I still think it has something to do with the mind training - that uncanny calmness and the unclouded ability to divine the his intention unerringly.

Regards,

[Ernie]

mind and body unified
you can have the gratist fighting mind in the world but if you body is broke down or out of shape then you just don't have the tools to allow your mind to express itself

Steven William Hawking
could probably beat us all down in his mind but with no body to express , it is meaningless

sadly most people neglect the obvious

[russellsherry]

dear paul if i was fighting someone a lot better than myself my idea would be go for broke, make sure you get that first punch in , at all costs as running would be good as well but try to get him to turn his back if he was stupid hit him as hard as possiable

regards russell sherry

[russellsherry]

dear paul , remember also what bruce lee said about this, if somebody is better at wing chun than you , he might not have the heart, when it counts i once , frought someone quite well known, in the street and this person, beat me but i did ok and i walked away, also this sifu did not know i was disabled .. but he would not have picked a fight with me if he had known it , but we were both defending our schools so i bear no grudes toward him, but the next encounter i had was with someone else well
known he badmounthed his best friend as well as his teacher he knew i was disabled and took me far to easy and i was never so scared in my life when it happened but i one this fight becuse i knew he had no street expereince i regeat this fight the most but i was a wing chun wild child back then can you imagaine me getting into trouble like that peace russell sherry

[PaulH]

Dear Russell,

I enjoy your adventurous stories! Keep us informed on these interesting aussie stories! Good heart and good spirit in troubled time are the best things that a guy can ask for.

Regards,

[russellsherry]

thanks for your complements paul, we al make mistkes when we

are young ad restless dont we peae russell sherry