Why is Kung Fu so caught up with circus tricks?

[rogue]

Let's agree that there are very many good CMA fighters. No argument about that. But what is this facination that many in the CMA have with parlor tricks and circus acts? Empty force, tremoring energy, pulling trucks with the johnson? I have yet to see this associated with any other group of martial arts, at least in the main stream. What gives?

[shaolin kungfu]

What gives?

Hopefully not your johnson.:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

I can think of two reasons:

1 - circus tricks are cool.

2 - kungfu is associated with religious and mystical traditions(buddhism/taoism) which means they'll be different from arts associated with athletic traditions (boxing/wrestling) and purely martial traditions (karate/fencing.)

[jmd161]

Well while times have changed i would not call them parlor or circus tricks.

They had a meaning and use back then.It's just that it's not needed these days ,and if it was too many ppl are not willing to put in the training.


jeff:)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Hopefully not your johnson.:eek:

LOL!

Now my keyboard is coffe stained!

Rogue - to answer your question, it's because kung fu is far cooler than all those other styles.

:)

[tnwingtsun]

The same reason TKD teachs you that training your high kick
will help you in a fight??:confused:


;)

[joedoe]

One reason I have heard of is that back in the day, kung fu masters were often bones setters and herbalists and would travel from town to town plying their trade. Now to get people interested in them and maybe win some business, the masters would often do demos and 'parlour tricks' to gather a crowd around as a lead-in to selling their medical services. I guess the tradition never died :)

I suppose the other aspect of it is the focus of CMA on the more mystical aspects of the training i.e. 'qi' control and manipulation. To be able to exhibit some skill in this area would traditionally be a way of showing people the skill you have achieved in the art.

[Laughing Cow]

Have to agree with Joedoe.

I heard the same thing that many MA of old were forced to wander and earn a living by doing street preformances of "impossilbe feasts" or similar.

They used to perform simialr stunts like the monks are doing on their current tour .

Lets not forget that many MA of old were lower class and un-educated people that often had no other means of earning a living.

Example:
YLC was illiterate, thus MA research ash to be often conducted via 3rd party or outside sources as many masters of old were not able to leave a written record of what the learned.

Cheers.

[Ray Pina]

This won't be popular but: To put it simply, they're hicks.

Where do all these traveling religious con men go in the US? The south! The bible belt!

Likewise, most of the popular kung fu that made it to the US (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, ect) comes from South China where most of the folks are(were) farmers and peasants ... not the most educated of folks. Thus the term Village Boxer. Martial artists in north China, which consists of a much greater area, kind of look down on them sort of the way people from NY or Boston question a small town doctor's ability from Alabama.


Personally, I hate that sort of thing. I don't care about ones ability to bend a spear or break a rock, I am interested in their technique.

For kicks my master has shown me how these guys do some of their tricks. But if you get fooled by such things you deserve to lose whatever money you give them, just like paying $20 to have some hill-billy preacher absolve you of sin.

[MasterKiller]

Kung Fu masters used parlor tricks the same way Jesus did---to get people's attention. C'mon, what kind of miracle is turning water into wine, anyway. You'd think the son of God could raise a mountain or flip the moon on it's axis. But water to wine? Please...ranks up there with Empty Force.

[chen zhen]

It's simply for promotion.
Just think how well-known the "karate-chop" is, after all those wooden board-braking demos.

[David Jamieson]

Kung fu is not the only set of martial arts that uses trickery and showmanship for promotion.

It is also interesting to note, that the majority of people fail to understand that they are tricks. And usually, not many people figure it out on their own but rather have it explained to them that there is trickery involved.

still, the skill to do "magic" tricks is a skill in and of itself. I doubt many folks can do the "tricks" of the Shaolin Monks touring ensemble for instance without becoming injured.

simply because someone points out the physics of something does not mean there wasn't work involved in figuring out how to pull off the trick.

when someone here has a film of them being propped up by their stomach on a spear, even a blunted spear, and they do it without any training, then I will say, "hey, nice trick" but if one cannot perform them so easily, then is it really a "trick?"

cheers

[red5angel]

rogue, I have this theory. See, way back when, they didn't know the things we know now, about the body, about training, about the mind.
A man who trained day in and day out several hours a day, could in a few years appear to be capable of some almost magical feats of control over his own body and others. Today hard and intense training are common place and so those things may not seem so magical, but back then they did.
In our modern times those myths and legends have turned into a belief in something that is more explainable today. Now you look at a guy who can hit you in the right spot and make part of you body go numb as being a pretty good martial artist who knows the nervous system fairly well. Back then he was using his chi power to block your chi power.

[David Jamieson]

Today hard and intense training are common place and so those things may not seem so magical, but back then they did.

I don't think todays' training is particularly hard or intense in comparison to even the training done in wushu schools.

Most martial arts schools in North america and elsewhere are fairly reasonable in training expectations. With the exception of those schools that are extremely hard core or olympic training schools or hard core fighter schools. For the most part, classes can be taken by anybody who wants to learn and learning is paced according to the skill of the student.

cheers

[red5angel]

Kung lek, you can always up the ante, what I am saying is that intense training is not only more common, not just in the martial arts, but we are better able to get access to the ideas and theories behind it. I do't have to ride my horse drawn wagon three hundred miles to talk to a guy who is training in a particular art and has a good reputation for it. There is always someone ot there training harder, but that's the point...

[TonyM.]

P.T. Barnam had the answer.

[bob10]

I'd guess maybe Chinese opera has a part to play in this too, or even just general circus acts and entertainment. Trouble is they lost sight of the wood for the trees, and the CMA became a bunch of tricks rather than a combat method.

And don't forget we in the west had our own strongmen - like the Mighty Atom who pulled trains, bent iron bars, etc. A lot of these guys were used to promote exercise regimes or health tonics.

As for the intensity of training in kung fu - how does it compare to a professional boxer, elite military training or the like?

[Chang Style Novice]

I think the training of kf at high levels is as intense as anybody's training, but also that there's a lot fewer people doing it. Or put another way - a tough kungfu guy is as tough as any tough boxer, but the tough boxers have the tough kungfu guys outnumbered.

[GeneChing]

Chinese martial artists went by the term Jiang Hu (I think it was Giang Hu in Crouching Tiger) which literally means "river and lakes." It refered to a travelling community of warriors who walke "river and lakes" plying their martial skills as street performers and selling their linaments like the snake oil salesmen of the old west. All sorts of stunts were what attracted the crowds. This bled into opera and circus too, since they were also travelling performers, also using kung fu skills, so stunts are a grand tradition in our arts. Of course, many are fake, more so nowadays because there is more separation between performer and audience. In days of old, as street performers, there was no real stage to divide people, so the skills had to be more real. Plus they were often combined with open challenges - stuff like spend five minutes in the the ring (or on the lei tai rather) with "bruiser" here and you'll win some kind of purse. Nowadays, insurance won't allow us to stage these kinds of events. But serious, if they did, who here wouldn't watch? Since that doesn't occur anymore, charlatanism goes more unchecked now. Plus I feel people are more deadened by movie special effects and X-game sports to be very impressed by most martial arts tricks. Even towing a truck with your johnson (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/dvdca107.html).

[Laughing Cow]

MK.

Give me access to some clay and a firing oven and I will turn water into wine using the same method.
:D

This "Trick" was actually very common and often performed during the time when Jesus was allegedly alive.

If you research the bible and and it's contents in regards to the culture of that particular time you will for example note that some of the witing represents popular writing styles and in cases even comedy of the time.

Have to agree with KL, just because a lot of this things were stunts and tricks didn't mean that everybody could do them, you also needed to be a good performer.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

To answer the question,
Kung Fu Training turns you into one Bad assed Mo fo, and we just like to show off. Really, would any of you believe a guy could pull a truck with his "Mr. Happy" If you didn't see it?

[KC Elbows]

It's because we're better than other martial artists. I can say that, because it sure isn't easy posting this with my keyboard hanging from my testicles, but I make it look effortless.

And now, just a slight contaction of my hui yin, and I will have clicked the "submit reply button"- thank god for the cordless mouse.

[rubthebuddha]

the fun part happens when you have to simultaneously hit two keys, such as control-f or something. it takes a dexterity few have mastered.

[rogue]

Thanks for the answers guys, especially Joe and Gene. I'm not saying that the performers don't work hard and have exceptional skills, I 'm just wondering why Kung Fu has that type of performances associated with it. Yes I'll admit they are more fun to watch than breaking demos, but no where near as fun as watching ring girls parade around.:D

Do you think that the performers cause more harm to the CMA than help them?

[Laughing Cow]

Rogue.

A lot of those breaking demoes are also rigged.

There are many ways of preparing bricks and wood blocks, as well as how you set them up can make a big difference.


:D

[rogue]

Yup, Physics and preperation factor big into breaking demos.

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Likewise, most of the popular kung fu that made it to the US (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, ect) comes from South China where most of the folks are(were) farmers and peasants ... not the most educated of folks. Thus the term Village Boxer. Martial artists in north China, which consists of a much greater area, kind of look down on them sort of the way people from NY or Boston question a small town doctor's ability from Alabama.


HAHAHAHAHaHaHa...HaHa...Ha... Ha...... ..... Ha....

You funny guy ... I kill you last ....

[joedoe]

Originally posted by rogue
Thanks for the answers guys, especially Joe and Gene. I'm not saying that the performers don't work hard and have exceptional skills, I 'm just wondering why Kung Fu has that type of performances associated with it. Yes I'll admit they are more fun to watch than breaking demos, but no where near as fun as watching ring girls parade around.:D

Do you think that the performers cause more harm to the CMA than help them?

In some ways yes. The problem being that people nowadays are probably a lot more sceptical than they used to be due to the availability of information through the net, generally higher education levels, and the advances in science etc. People see some of the tricks that MAs use and are automatically sceptical, hence the art of the performer is also called into question.

Personally, I prefer the type of demo that my teacher does. He shows applications and tries to display the power in the art itself, rather than doing tricks (though he is able to do the tricks as well :)). Nothing like watching him lift someone up under the armpits with his arms extended in front of him, and carry them across the room. ;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
This won't be popular but: To put it simply, they're hicks.

Where do all these traveling religious con men go in the US? The south! The bible belt!

Likewise, most of the popular kung fu that made it to the US (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, ect) comes from South China where most of the folks are(were) farmers and peasants ... not the most educated of folks. Thus the term Village Boxer. Martial artists in north China, which consists of a much greater area, kind of look down on them sort of the way people from NY or Boston question a small town doctor's ability from Alabama.


Personally, I hate that sort of thing. I don't care about ones ability to bend a spear or break a rock, I am interested in their technique.

For kicks my master has shown me how these guys do some of their tricks. But if you get fooled by such things you deserve to lose whatever money you give them, just like paying $20 to have some hill-billy preacher absolve you of sin.

Sounds suspiciously like Ego Maximus/Extraordinaire. ;)

[rogue]

Philmont posted this on the WC forum but it also fits here. (http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2003/06/09/51.asp)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_zWD2ZQvCI

[YinOrYan]

Why is Kung Fu so caught up with circus tricks?

There's a long history of kung fu done for performance in similar venues. The history of Wing Chun inevitably brings us back to the Red Junk Opera Companies, and well before that Marco Polo describes that Kublai Khan had martial arts performed together with acrobatics at imperial banquets. Oh, and then does anybody remember the name of that funny kung fu movie/porn where these guys have a sort of traveling-circus where they take on challengers until they meet this women that wears them down. I've got it somewhere in a banker's box of old VHS tapes...

[GeneChing]

Oh, and then does anybody remember the name of that funny kung fu movie/porn where these guys have a sort of traveling-circus where they take on challengers until they meet this women that wears them down.
Dude, I'd love to see that. That sounds hilarious. Let us know if you remember the title...