Iron body training in tai chi praying mantis?

[phantom]

People claim that harsh iron body training is the norm for tai chi praying mantis schools. Now, don't get me wrong, I think iron body training is a good thing for people who are serious about learning how to defend themslves, as the body's ability to take a hit naturally declines with age. Iron body training helps to offset that. However, I do not think such harsh methods like having somebody whack you with a staff is a good way to develop it. I think that getting hit with a light sandbag is good enough. A mild conditioning method combined with strong herbal medications is the best way to do it, imo. At any rate, is harsh iron body training really such an absolute requirement in tai chi mantis schools? Thanks in advance.

[Ren Blade]

Iron Body I assume is mostly done within hard external styles. A soft style like Tai Chi doesn't train or need it it seems. Because a high level Tai Chi fighter couldn't be hit as easily as he feels is center at all times, their body redirecting or rolling with the strike.

I heard of a famous story of a Chen Tai Chi master who was really old, probably around 80 years old. Back in ancient times, in the Chen village where Chen Tai Chi is strong, a merchant, who is a martial artist, was passing through. In a way to sell his products, he put on a martial arts demonstration to attract attention. At a lightning speed he was performing double broadsword skills. As he was swinging and slashing away, he would speak saying things like "My broadswords are so fast that if it rain, not even a drop of water could touch me."

The grandfather of the Chen Village, who is a Chen Tai Chi master, slipped a hat on top of the merchant's head while he was swinging his broadswords. People watching didn't notice where the hat came from. But the merchant was then embarrassed. And he noticed it came from the Chen master. He was upset that such a thing had happen making him look like a fool.

So the merchant challenged the Chen master. And the challenges back then were either fight until someone dies or each person would take turns at attacking the other only 3 times. Now the merchant was well trained in iron fist and iron shirt. So he had no fear of not doing damage when striking or getting hurt from a hit.

The Chen master declined and apologized for the silly joke. The merchant insisted. The Chen master finally gave in and took up the challenge. And the agreed to go with the taking turns of attacking 3 times. So the merchant went first. The merchant with his powerful iron fist struck at the Chen Tai Chi master 3 times. Each time the Chen master with a soft body, moved and slipped around the strikes. The merchant missing with the 3rd strike stumbled foward pass the Chen master, breaking a hole in a wood wall.

Then it was the Chen master's turn to strike back. The merchant thought to himself, well ok, maybe I can't hit him but at least my Iron Shirt will protect me. The Chen master struck and upon contact of his hit, he felt a change and resistance to his hit from the merchant's body as he was using his Iron Shirt. Instantly the Chen master adjusted all during the hit to penetrate the strike deep into the merchant's body and into an organ. The merchant's Iron Shirt could not protect him this time and he fell and died.

A week after this challenge, the Chen master died as well. No one knows why as he couldn't been hit by the merchant. But probably cause the Chen master was so old it may have exhausted him to the point of dying to have done what he did during that challenge. And today in the Chen village, they honor and celebrate that day as a special day.



But anyways, I think that story is an example of how Iron Shirt is not necessary for a real Tai Chi fighter as they move their center around attacks.

[Ren Blade]

Oh wait a minute. This thread is in reference to Tai Chi Praying Mantis. Now I haven't seen but I heard of Tai Chi Praying Mantis style but not sure if it's like the other Tai Chi styles Yang, Chen, Wu etc.

Ok, I don't know if Iron Shirt is ok with Tai Chi Praying Mantis style.

Sorry for going off topic with my previous post.

[Mr.Binx]

My personal view on body-hardening, in general is that one should start out light and then slowly progress to the more extreme end of the spectrum. You're body builds up a more healthy tolerance to the damage, scarring is minimal, and you are less likely to incur any permanent damage. I went through alot of stomach and thigh conditioning while taking sky budo that followed this concept, but required the active use of your muscular systems as well. I've read a few articles on chi kung and I found many of these same theories. Likewise, the body-hardening drills we are currently performing in my qi xing class (wrists and shins) start out with light contact and then end after a gradual increase in intensity. I've, again, heard the same training method from muay thai practicioners. So there does appear to be trend with martial teachings in the idea that one shouldn't condition the body past a point until it is prepared to properly handle the new damage it is about to receive.

[mantis108]

I am a Taiji/Tai Chi Praying Mantis practitioner under GM Chiu Chuk Kai's lineage (CCK TCPM). I happen to be fortunate enough to have first hand Iron Body training experience under GM Chiu's supervision. I have also trained in Wu Style Taiji, the one derived from Yang style, Neigong which is also a form of "iron body". I can assure you that iron body training does exist in internal styles as well just that the methodologies and approaches are different. This is of course subject to the orientation of the style. If it is traditional martial arts oriented Taijiquan, iron body training would be there. However, it is very very well kept from public eyes.

In CCK TCPM as well as TJPM in general, Iron Body training (Pai Da) is equally important as Qigong training. In fact they are both listed as seperate items under the GM Chiu's curriculum. Iron Body is considered as Yian Gong (hard conditioning) among other conditioning exercises such as Iron Palm. In GM Chiu's view, these aren't the be all end all super duper poweress. They are just part of the whole for full contact practical combative art(s). It is simply impact training Kao Da that got taken up a notch. If you are going full contact, impact training is a must whether it is Kao Da or Pai Da. The value of Pai Da is just as important as stance training or footwork training no more no less.

I hope this clear thing up for you.

Regards

Mantis108

PS We had a discussion about this on my forum. Please feel free to visit us over there using the link provided with my signature below.

[Ren Blade]

This is interesting.

I've heard of Ba Gua not needing to train Iron Palm because they develop Iron Palm through the training. It's just developed internally.

I guess it's somewhat similar with Tai Chi?

I'm mostly an external stylist and had just some exposure and training in Yang Tai Chi.

Actually, one of my seniors have trained Iron Shirt but he said his was more internal Iron Shirt. I wonder if it has something to do with his Tai Chi training. I forgot about internal Iron Shirt. I spoke too soon earlier in this thread. :eek:

[Tainan Mantis]

Body striking chi gung exists in PM as well as Taiji.
Also in may other styles.
It is very good for the internal organs as it makes them strong.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Body striking chi gung exists in PM as well as Taiji.
Also in may other styles.
It is very good for the internal organs as it makes them strong.

What is 'body striking chi gung' ? I find this interesting it does not mesh with my framework for kung-chi. Perhaps it is a terminology thing ?

Regards,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Ursa,
Pai Da Chi Gung is body striking chi gung.
It is conditioning for the internal organs. Some people do it without striking the body.
That is ok, there is still a good health effect.

The body fills up with a large amount of air and then you do something with this air while you keep it in you.
It places stress and pressure on everything inside your body which helps to strengthen it.

Example, have you noticed that someone who doesn't fall or throw often will have a cough after being slammed?
It is like the guts got rattled.

These different practices of pai da chi gung help tighten and strengthen the intrenal organs so that doesn't happen.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Hi Ursa,
Pai Da Chi Gung is body striking chi gung.
It is conditioning for the internal organs. Some people do it without striking the body.
That is ok, there is still a good health effect.

The body fills up with a large amount of air and then you do something with this air while you keep it in you.
It places stress and pressure on everything inside your body which helps to strengthen it.

Example, have you noticed that someone who doesn't fall or throw often will have a cough after being slammed?
It is like the guts got rattled.

These different practices of pai da chi gung help tighten and strengthen the intrenal organs so that doesn't happen.

Hello Tainan Mantis I do not hear much about PM and internal training and am glad to hear from you on it.

My notions of chi and internals come from my HG side. Due to the nature of 7 Star these notions are often not entirely applicable when applied to PM. I am very interested in how we address the subject of PM internal training and appreciate hearing from you (or any other PM people) on this matter.

thx,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

UM,
The internal training I have seen or learned in northern and southern styles has some characteristic in common.

Either they had the same root many centuries ago or people just figured it out in different places and that is why it is similar.