Short Range or Long Range

[StickyHands]

Bored, so might as well say something. In traditional kung fu, what was the need for having two different types of kung fu: short range and long range? This is what I picked up from the the kung fu magazine here:

Revealing the Secrets of O-Mei Kungfu with Chen Jian and Tony Chen
by Gene Ching, with assistance by Dr. Johnny Jang

"Baji Quan is extremely effective in close-range combat. It contains a lot of elbow and fist strikes, and its movements are quick and explosive. Since the Baji system is strictly for combat, it has been practiced by bodyguards in many parts of China. Historically, it was incorporated into the Ching Dynasty's imperial bodyguard training and used in Chairman Mao Ze-Dong's secret service. Currently, it is implemented in Taiwan's military police training.

The counterpart of Baji Quan is the Piqua Zhang, or Splitting and Deflecting Palm. While the movements of Baji Quan are short and linear, the movements of Piqua Zhang are circular and far reaching. Thus, the Piqua system is most effective for reaching out to opponents. Derived from the movements of the snake and eagle, Piqua Zhang is a relatively soft system compared to the hardness found in Baji Quan. Even though Baji and Piqua are two independent styles, it is best to practice both because they can complement each other by enhancing the yin and yang within each style. "


Does that mean that long range kung fu is perhaps more inclined toward fighting multiple opponets at the same time, while short range concentrates on beating the crap out of one opponet at a time? Better for one on one and such?

[count]

Both are fine independently. It's just that Piqua will focus on long range attacks to open the door. Baji maybe just breaks the door down. It doesn't mean that piqua is not good for short range fighting. It is. It's just very complimentary to baji's short to no range applications. Besides, even when you have multiple opponents, you still basically fight one at a time.

[Oso]

Besides, even when you have multiple opponents, you still basically fight one at a time.

I have to disagree with this a little. Through throws and chin na you can manipulate one opponent in a manner to at least interfere with attacks from other opponents. True, most of the time you would only have your hands on one person at a time but I wouldn't say you were only fighting that person exclusively.

[StickyHands]

Oh no, I didnt mean just particularly Baji and Pigua, that was just an example I felt may clear up what I was trying to imply. I meant any traditional kung fu that defines itself as long range or short range. Besides, what is the difference between the two anyway, and why was it necessary to differentiate? And sorry im not familiar with Baji and Pigua terms, but what do you mean by breaking the door/gate?

[count]

Oso, if you're just looking to disagree with any old point be my guest. I did say "basically" not specifically and not in finite terms. Sometimes fighting multiples can work to your advantage. For example, what's the most opponents that can grab you at one time. Say 8 guys come at you from as many possible directions as they can, if they all try to grab you at one time, they'll just knock each other out of the way. :D Com'on, if you imagine you are in a kung fu movie you can grab one kick another and throw the first into the third. But realistically, the best way to deal with multiple opponents is one at a time. think about it for a while.

StickyFingers,
In my experience the only kind of CMA that is considered long range is the kind that is not yet fully understood. If you can think of any style, go ahead and list your impressions. People used to tell me that longfist was a long range system. LOL. CMA is about closing the distance and destroying your opponents defenses, getting inside and throwing them. Attacking and defending hands work together (with the legs) as a kind of a shield or a door or a gate that once you have entered you can win. Door or gate are not terms specific to Baji or Piqua. A Chinese expression is "if you think you can beat your opponent, go in through the front door, is you think you can't beat him, go in through the side door." Some people like to knock on the door and have their opponent open it. Some people like to break down the door and rush in.

I've heard you talk about a lot of styles on the forums. Ask about a lot of systems and give imformation too. But since you have no profile and I don't really know you, I have to ask, what style you do? I might guess Wing Chun from your screen name but that would be a stretch considering you asked about doors and gates.

[StickyHands]

lol. Actually, taking a little break from the MA world right now. Used to do this generic kung fu which was probably a hybrid of self defense and southern/hung gar stuff, uhhh not exactly world renowned, lol. Then did Judo for a while. So thinkin of getting back into Kung Pao i mean kung fu.

But do tell what it 'actually means' to be long range or short range?

[count]

Gun - Stick - Knife :D

[StickyHands]

Check out the edit, forgot to include something. Hmmmm, so may I proclaim you know what you're talking about? lol. :D

[count]

Thanks for the compliment. I've been fortunate to have been around really good teachers and classmates. :cool:

[StickyHands]

NP. HEHEH, gee shucks... my question still sticks unanswered I reckon. :D

[count]

Sorry, were you looking for a "real", "kung fu" answer?

Long range = Fist
Short range = Shoulder

One leads to the other. Does that make sense?

:cool:

[StickyHands]

Yes'm! :p

[Oso]

discussion of course.




I did say "basically" not specifically and not in finite terms. Sometimes fighting multiples can work to your advantage.

If faced with mutiples I don't think you have a choice.

let's get on the same page. By 'fighting' I mean tactics. in this instance mainly referring to positioning and, to an extent, the technique you might chose over another because it places you in a better position to accept an attack from another opponent.


For example, what's the most opponents that can grab you at one time. Say 8 guys come at you from as many possible directions as they can, if they all try to grab you at one time, they'll just knock each other out of the way.

I don't think 8 people can grab you at once. But only one or two of them need to grab you successfully to allow the others to land strikes. So, positioning and quick footwork are needed to keep you out of range of multiples. I do think it is possible to flow strikes from A to B to C but those strikes would mainly be in the quick stunning category and you would have to definitely focus on one opponent in particular to put them down and out.

[Oso]

Sticky,

I think that 'long' and 'short' range 'styles' are very broad generalizations. I doubt anyone truly proficient in any style labeled with 'long' or 'short' would be unable to demonstrate both ranges. just my opinion of course.

[StickyHands]

Yeah agree, but I figure what the hell by asking why does the distinction exist in the first place?

[Oso]

man's incessant need to say that whatever he is doing is better than what somebody else is doing????:confused: ;) :D

[Ironmantis]

From what I have read:
Long range and short range styles show there rootsin history.

The Northern Chinese being taller developed one style vs the Southern Chinese being smaller devloped another style (I do believe that the Southern Chinese devloped long fist to deal with the taller Chinese).

Both of them have there advantages.

Me myself I like using Pau Kua to get behind some one and then finishing off with Xingy or Lohan fist.

Lohan Fist is also very good to start of a series of attacks working your way inside and then finishing with a tai chi strike or a mantis strike to a pressure point.

..... all depends ......


I.M.