Bruce Lee

[Repulsive Monkey]

Did any one see the showing of the Pierre Berton interview with Bruce Lee last night on channel 5?
I was always under the impression that Bruce Lee was meant to be an intelligent man??? Well I suppose I was kinda proved wrong.

I thought his comments about Tai Chi actually proved something very substantial toi the whole Tai Chi community in general....namely that Bruce knew nothing about it mainly. I know that it was the first style of martial art he was introduced to, but he didn't boither sticking with it much, and his explanation of basic Chinese philosophy was quite hammy and dramatical but with precious little content.

I'm so glad I got to see how mediocre he was.

[red5angel]

There was a lot BL didn't know, about a lot of arts, even some of the arts he studied. He was an actor who studied martial arts in my view.

And most of his wise sayings are all regurgitated eastern philosophy, it's just at that time westerners hadn't heard a whole lot of it.

[kwaichang kaned]

Nah! i taped it and was going to watch it tonight.
Does he really come across as dumb?

[truewrestler]

it sounds like you people are dumb :p

Seriously... maybe you should take some of what he says to heart.

[red5angel]

truewrestler, it's not what he is saying is bad or not something we shouldn't take to heart,it's just that I am getting pretty sick of hearing about the great bruce lee. It's mostly myth and legend now and the guy hasn't been dead 30 years yet. I enjoy a good BL movie like anyone else, and he had some good ideas here and there but for the most part I think he was still young and still had a lot to learn. The other issue was his ego, something a good martial artist shouldn't allow to get in the way. His just about drove his life.

[kwaichang kaned]

Like i said in my first post .
I HAVE NOT SEEN THE INTERVIEW
Therefore i cannot form an opinion on it.I was just asking someone who had seen it how BL comes across.

[apoweyn]

Repulsive Monkey,

Will you be sure to PM me if you ever post anything that isn't p-ssing and moaning?

I'm no great lover of Bruce Lee myself. But good grief, mate. What's the point of this?!


Stuart B.

[truewrestler]

red5angel, You have good points but I feel strongly that what he was advocating wasn't realized until people took a look at the Ultimate Fighting Championship and realized there is more to martial arts than one style or one way of doing things.... that no one style was complete.

You know the movie Game of Death, which he didn't complete? In the final fight, against Kareem, he finished the fight on the ground with a side choke....although that was cut out by whoever pieced the film together after his death. He tried to use his movies to present his philosophies to the world...whether it was obvious like beating a big guy on the ground with a choke/submission or as subtle as each level of the building being a different level of martial arts...the top being styleless.

Anways... something I've never understood is how some people take JKD as Bruce praticed it around the time of his death as a style in itself even though years from his death, and especially today, it would have been much different.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The whole gripe was a ironic response to the earlier what there isn't a Bruce Lee thread today. However there was inside it a bit of a genuine gripe. Im not all doom and gloom you know, quite the opposite.

By the way I do think in the interview his means of self expression did go to the limits of exposing who big his ego was too.

I just felt that what he was saying showed him up to be more of an actor than a martial artist to be honest. He seemed to make loads og generalisations, even though underneath it I'm plenty sure that he believed in what he was doing.

Plus he kept on saying "Man" and "Hey Baby" too much too. What a beatnick!!!!

[DelicateSound]

Bet he'd kick your ass :p

[apoweyn]

Repulsive Monkey,


Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
The whole gripe was a ironic response to the earlier what there isn't a Bruce Lee thread today. However there was inside it a bit of a genuine gripe. Im not all doom and gloom you know, quite the opposite.

By the way I do think in the interview his means of self expression did go to the limits of exposing who big his ego was too.

I just felt that what he was saying showed him up to be more of an actor than a martial artist to be honest. He seemed to make loads og generalisations, even though underneath it I'm plenty sure that he believed in what he was doing.

Plus he kept on saying "Man" and "Hey Baby" too much too. What a beatnick!!!!

This I can agree with wholeheartedly. I've long found Bruce Lee's manner a bit irritating. He's very overstated. And that manner bothers me.

But if your complaint is that he gets overidealized, don't make the opposite mistake.


I was always under the impression that Bruce Lee was meant to be an intelligent man??? Well I suppose I was kinda proved wrong.

I have no doubt he was intelligent. The fact that c0ckiness and absolutism annoy me are comments on presentation. Not attributes.

I think you're making a very valid point. But your first post was made with a lot of the same sort of know-it-all attitude that you're actually complaining about.

He was a guy. Some things about this guy, I admire. Other things annoy me. And that's life.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

rp

:rolleyes:

Your such a fool sometimes.

Take your classics to heart and keep your mouth shut.

:eek:

[red5angel]

I think the down hill slide came when he got his a$$ handed to him by Wong Jack Man.

[truewrestler]

"I think the down hill slide came when he got his a$$ handed to him by Wong Jack Man."

I thought he won but wanted to end it more quickly than he did... please explain

[red5angel]

BL and mostly Linda Lee claimed he won. Bruce mentioned in passing that he felt he couldn't end the fight quick enough *cough not enough training cough*.

However, accroding to bruce and Linda not only was WJM cowering before Bruce but begging him to stop and generally making an ass of himself which pretty much goes against he character of the guy as attested to by many people who knew him at the time.
What I find even more ironic is that this fight that BL won so utterly, was also the one event that basically altetered his whole martial paradigm?!
My take, and all theory mind you, is that Bruce Lee lost that fight. WJM states that he was getting extremely frustrated because he couldn't get to WJM to do enuogh damage. That sounds aceptabel to me because bruce up until that time hadn't had as much fighting experience as WJM and hadn't even finished studying wing chun. He was missing some key components at that time. On top of that BL's ego was big, no one denies that, although he could be a nice guy, even he has admitted his temper is really bad, which goes along more with what WJM has to say then BL.
So , he goes to fight WJM, thinking it's going to be an easy fight since WJM is a little older and Bruce's ego has talked him into this. WJM, who has much more training and in my own opinion, better character, beats him,not brutally since he thought it was supposed to be a freindly match in the first place. He frsutrates BL's attempts to hhurt him. BL doesn't have the skill level at this time to compete, he is young and strong but WJM isn't that much older and he apparently has much more skill then BL has come across before. BL cracks, his ego and his anger come to a head and he loses it and ends up actually making an ass of himself.
He comes out beaten, and frustrated. He can't finish the WIng Chun system under yip man so he is frustrated about that. He determines that the "classical" mess is a mess because he can't seem to use it. My theory again is that his ego was big enough to turn people off from training him back then.
So instead of learning something from his experience he decides he doesn't want to play by anyones rules anymore, it hasn't done him any good and he wants to start kicking ass now, not later. So is planted the seeds of JKD and June Fan.

[truewrestler]

Wow red5angel, I take it COMPLETELY differently. I always thought that the fight between Bruce and Wong Jack Man was a fvcking mess but that Bruce came out on top.

I compare it to the early Ultimate Fighting Championships where you had guys with blackbelts and up to dozens of years in martial arts look completely incompetent and wild because they had just trained in traditional ways without actually ever fighting....as opposed to maybe a boxer, kickboxer, grappler, wrestler etc who compete all out in their respective sports/styles.

This may have been the time he became interested in combat sports as a tool to get that timing and experience in fighting.

[Ryu]

Quick quick!!! Check the size of Bruce Lee's d1ck! Is it bigger than mine??? :mad: :mad: That fukin bast@rd!! :mad:


:rolleyes:
You people need help.

Seriously....

Ryu

[Nevermind]

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

[red5angel]

Well according to all involved both men, but especially WJM had plenty of fighting experience. I think BL's interest in combatitive sports probably was an extension of his interest in the martial arts in general. He wanted to make the ultimate "style".

It's just too many things for me point to BL getting beat. His reaction was extreme to a fight he "won" no matter how long it took him to win it. He claims up until that time that he fought many rooftop battles in hong kong but it has been disclosed that for the most part he just watched the majority of those rooftop fights. My guess is he probably fought in a few and won atleast the majority of them, or hadn't lost at all, and so expected to be unbeatable. Then the unthinkable happens, he gets beat. Couldn't him, he is the best fighter he knows. Has to be the system or the way of training.

[Chinwoo-er]

I think most of what you guys said about BL is correct. Arrogence, lack of knowledge in alot of MA styles, c0ckiness, ripping off old texts etc etc.
To be honest, BL was a main reason why I started MA. Ironically, he is now someone I constantly remind myself to not become.

Anyway, now you know my private ( shhhh, don't tell anyone ) thoughts about BL let me say something that my stir the pot a little

As much faults as BL has, lets not forget that he has made more contribution to the promotion of CMA as well as Chinese pride than anyone in his days. CMA was barely known back then. When people talk about "Kung Fu", people may think it is some kind of exotic drink in some alien tropical island. The name KF wasn't even registered in people's mind. But BL was able change that completely.

Before BL, chinese were seen as those short, line-eye, two long whiskers cowards. The chinese community living in the western worlds suffered a great deal of sterotyping ( ok, so every non-white were, but lets stick to chinese for now ) But after BL, the concept of what a "Chinese" is changed dramatically in the western world. Having a more.......... bruce lee-like image :confused:. It was then that alot of chinese children were able to stand up and say "I am Chinese" with pride. Many people who live in BL's time will say that the smashing of that "no chinese or dogs allowed" sign in fist of fury was a very symbolic event to alot of asian countries. Not only asians, but alot of places around the world where people were ashamed of their own identities because of their lack of strength in comparison to their neigbours.

thirdly, look at the people he inspired ? Look at the generations of MA stars that came after him ? What they were able to achieve. Sure, the final winners is hollywood. but hey, we, the audience wins too.

Now, we must ask ourselves this. If it wasn't for BL's character flaws, was all this possible ? A common CMAist would be less willing to flaunt their skill and achievements. Always being able to keep their ego in checked. But really, how many of these people really were able to change the world for the chinese people as BL has ?

[red5angel]

Ryu, nice man, glad to see your open to some discussion....thats what's really lame.

chinwoo, absolutely man, like I said, I enjoy his movies as much as the next and I can appreciate what he did for the asian community at large and for martial arts.

[Ryu]

Discussion about Bruce again?? Even I'm getting tired of talking about him. :rolleyes:

Ryu

[red5angel]

obviously not since you felt the need to make a post like that. Imagine someone else out there wants to talk about something you don't. But I guess that makes it wrong right? I don't mind the occasional BL discussion from time to time, I also don't mind talking about martial arts from time to time either, I do mind someone blasting into a conversation with nothing useful to say, just because they don't like the subject matter. If you have an opinion about the subject feel free but my recommendation to you is that if you don't have anything useful or freindly to say don't bother, it serves no purpose but to make you look like an ass.

[Chinwoo-er]

Ryu, just because your ha****en can't scratch BL doesn't mean you have to get bitter..............:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

you know what ****es me off the most Ryu? The fact that from time to time you have some pretty good and pretty intelligent things to say. It really disappoints me that you felt the need to come in like that and post something needlessly offensive. Not that it should matter to you I guess but really, what purpose did that serve? did it make you feel better?

[truewrestler]

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

I have read a little of this before. Regardless of who is right or wrong...what Wong Jack Man says just sounds like a lot of BS.


That, says Wong, is why he failed to deliver a devastating right-hand blow on any of the three occasions he had Lee’s head locked under his left arm. Instead, he says, he released his opponent each time, only to have an even more enraged Bruce Lee press on with his furious attack. "He would never say he lost until you killed him," says Wong. And despite his concern with the legal consequences, Wong says that killing Lee is something he began to consider. "I remember thinking, ‘If he injures me, if he really hurts me, I’ll have to kill him.

That is what we called the 3rd Grade Headlock in MMA :p

Why is it that he thinks he has to kill Bruce to defeat him? Has he never heard of a choke? Did he never understand that you can choke someone unconscious without killing them?

I still believe that the fight was probably a big mess.

[Chinwoo-er]

red5angel, take it easy !!!
You are going burst a blood vessal.

You CAN see that ryu is just joking right ?
I mean, bitter about his d!ck size and all, but it isn't really malicious.

[Ryu]

Oh come on you guys! :D

I have to be "Mr. Cool and collected" ALL the time?? As Merryprankster would say, "don't get your panties in a wad"


Fine, I apologize for my demoralizing statement. One thing is right though, I'm not in the mood to discuss Bruce, so you guys go on ahead, and I'll bow out. :) How's that?

Ryu

[fa_jing]

yeah, I find all these "worried about legal consequences" excuses to be highly suspect. Did they worry about legal consequences back in the day when they used to fight to the death? EVEN if those stories are FALSE, still they are a part of most Kung Fu histories so anyone taking up a challenge fight would have to have at least been willing to hurt the other guy.

[Ryu]

And Red, if it offended you that bad, I do apologize for real. I was mostly just joking because the poor guy isn't here to defend himself you know?

But no, my statement was just to make fun and offend. So sorry if it bugged you more than I intended. Didn't mean it THAT maliciously.

I will bow out now. I have some things to finish up anyway.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Thanks Ryu. You have to understand I come here to discuss things with a few people. There are some who usually have something worth while to say and others who do not. When one of those on my lists of worthwhiles does something disparaging it bothers me a little that's all. We all have our days anyway so no harm no foul.

truwrestler - WJM states earlier that BL came out with a shot to the eyes, making WJM think it was more serious a match then it was supposed to be. AS for the choke, I don't know, it's possible but I think maybe he was coming at it from the perspective that he was going to have to get as serious as BL if BL didn't settle down.

Regardless I wouldn't take WJM's account as golden either, it just seems more to go along with the characters of all the people involved.

[Chinwoo-er]

Good one ryu.

I have no idea how it feels to be belittled about the size of your manhood but I am sure it is heartbreaking. :D
But your maturity is to be commended.

Red, now shake hands an make out........... er.......up

[Ryu]

"Thanks Ryu. You have to understand I come here to discuss things with a few people. There are some who usually have something worth while to say and others who do not. When one of those on my lists of worthwhiles does something disparaging it bothers me a little that's all. We all have our days anyway so no harm no foul."

Thanks Red, I appreciate that. Today is just unusually hectic for me and I guess I'm unnecessarily snappy. I also enjoy reading your posts on this forum, so you have my apologies again for coming across as a jerk. :) Just one of those days... I'll get over it.

Later,
Ryu

[red5angel]

I think I am having one of those days as well. It doesn't help that I spent saturday night until sun up drinking more beer then I ever have before and sleeping through sunday! Anyway, consider it forgotten.

[truewrestler]

Regarding the question of how much Lee grew as a martial artist after the fight, Wong is convinced that the benefits to Lee from his homemade style were more than offset by the damage it did him. Wong even goes so far as to speculate that Jeet Kune Do may have caused Lee’s death Wow, is that why you see all these guys training in hybrid styles for Mixed Martial Arts falling dead before the age of 40? (sarcasm intended)


That Jeet Kune Do lacked the cohesion and harmony of a style in the traditional sense was something acknowledged by Lee himself, who preferred to call it a "sophisticated form of street fighting" rather than a style.

[red5angel]

I don't think it was JKD that killed him perse but I do believe he pushed himself too hard. He was a driven man and his freinds and family say he was constantly working out, even when he was just sitting around. That's got to have a toll on the body.

[truewrestler]

No doubt

[Knifefighter]

BL probably wasn't the best fighter the world has ever seen, but I have a few friends who actually trained and sparred with the man. According to them he was quite good, at least by the standards of the semi-full contact, no grappling or groundfighting sparring they were practicing at the time (which was light years ahead of how most other martial arts practitioners of that day were training).

Whatever his fighting ability, he was a smart guy. He had trained a system for a while, fought a guy who probably wasn't that good and found out that he couldn't use his skills the way they should supposedly be used. After this, he began searching for a way to make those skills more realistic. Makes sense to me. I wish I would have done the same thing when I first started my MA training- could have saved a lot of wasted years.

[truewrestler]

Knifefighter, what would you say to those people who say/think he should have just continued with Wing Chun... that he just hadn't learned enough of the art to be effective...not that the art was bad.

[Knifefighter]

I'd say he was on the right track.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Whatever his fighting ability, he was a smart guy. He had trained a system for a while, fought a guy who probably wasn't that good and found out that he couldn't use his skills the way they should supposedly be used. After this, he began searching for a way to make those skills more realistic. Makes sense to me. I wish I would have done the same thing when I first started my MA training- could have saved a lot of wasted years.

There's a few different variations of the Wong Jack Man fight going around. It depends on which side you hear the story from.

[red5angel]

fought a guy who probably wasn't that good

Actualy by all reputes WJM was a superb fighter, considered to be one of the best in chinatown at the time.
truewrestler, I don't think it is wingchun for the sake of wingchun but he was getting extremely frustrated at his attempts to train with Yip Man. I think if he would have studied any system in depth and for a while things may have been different. I don't know if JKD still wouldn't have come about, the mans ego was possibly too large to fit into a system that was designed by someone else. ;)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
Actualy by all reputes WJM was a superb fighter, considered to be one of the best in chinatown at the time. By his own account, he put BL in a standing headlock. He was not a good fighter.

[Water Dragon]

Define standing headlock.

[truewrestler]

...but Wong knew that in modern-day America, a crippling or killing blow, while winning a victory, might also win him a jail sentence.

That, says Wong, is why he failed to deliver a devastating right-hand blow on any of the three occasions he had Lee’s head locked under his left arm. But from his own accounts he could deliver a "killer blow" from the 3rd grade headlock.....hahahahah

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

[red5angel]

By his own account, he put BL in a standing headlock. He was not a good fighter.


WELL i fthtas the evidence you have it must be true! :rolleyes:

[truewrestler]

red5angel, please tell me you are joking.... WJM should have been tossed on his head 3 times for those 3 headlocks

[Knifefighter]

WJM was supposedly a seasoned kung fu instructor and fighter who had years of training, right? He should have been intimately familiar with a wide range of Chin Na control techniques, shouldn't he? But he had to resort to a third grade headlock? Either he wasn't a very good fighter or all those years of training were not spent learning much in the realm of practicality, don't you think?

[norther practitioner]

WJM should have been tossed on his head 3 times for those 3 headlocks

:rolleyes:
Right, glad you know exactly what happend... or what should have happend.

[red5angel]

the headlock in question is never described in detail. However, this story was told only a few years ago, so even if the guy couldn't fight when he and Bruce Lee fought ( not an issue really as I said he was considered the top guy in chinatown at the time) by now he would have learned what you so claim. My instinct is to go with the guy who has lived the martial arts for the last 40 years or so ;) My bet is you aren't seeing the whole picture. Or maybe Bruce Lee was so bad that all it took was a third grade level headlock?;)

[truewrestler]

The real question is: Who is better.... Wong Jack Man or Carlos Newton? I'll take Carlos... since he knows how to finish a 3rd grade headlock without having to kill his opponent! HAHA

http://fcfighter.com/ufc31newton.htm

[red5angel]

I take WJM since Carlos must be some muscle bound retard who thinks anything traditional is a classical mess. Oh yeah, and he's a grappler ;)

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by red5angel
I take WJM since Carlos must be some muscle bound retard who thinks anything traditional is a classical mess. Oh yeah, and he's a grappler ;) You are joking right? Let me know so I don't have to dignify that with a response :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

all you have to notice is that I didn't insist he was a retard because he was a grappler, just that he was a retard who grappled ;)

besides why wouldn't you respond, I bothered to respond to claims of a third grade headlock :rolleyes:

[truewrestler]

sorry, but that's really what it is called in MMA

Newton's nickname is "The Ronin" or Masterless Samurai and his style is Dragonball Z Jiu-Jitsu. I'm guessing you think he is a muscle bound retard because of his muscles in that picture. He is about the most technical MMA fighter out there and uses little power unless necessary....such as when finishing with the 3rd grade headlock.

[red5angel]

sorry, but that's really what it is called in MMA

ok, but assuming that since a guy isn't in mma doesn't know how to deal with a basic headlock or how it can be dealt with is a little narrow minded wouldn't you say? The assumption from you and knifefighter that it was a basic headlock and that he must not be a good fighter because of that is pretty thin.


As for Carlos, it was a joke, I have never met the guy. Sort of a jab at the assumptions being made about WJM.

[Ralphie]

Sorry, couldn't help but reply. When I was in 5th grade, I used the 3rd grade headlock to finish a kid that was bigger than me, and subsequently choked him out years before the advent of BJJ. I also used the mount in my youth to give people the tiki torture and the deadly pink belly.

[truewrestler]

ok, but assuming that since a guy isn't in mma doesn't know how to deal with a basic headlock or how it can be dealt with is a little narrow minded wouldn't you say? The assumption from you and knifefighter that it was a basic headlock and that he must not be a good fighter because of that is pretty thin. The 3rd grade headlock is not a good move to use and is rarely seen in MMA because you will get tossed on your head.

It might be hard to tell but... Newton quickly put on a rear choke on Pat but Pat escaped to the side since Newton didn't get his hooks in (legs/feet around the body). Carlos kept a hold of the head and finished in an awkward position. That is the only time I have ever seen the 3rd grade headlock used effectively...but as you see it was on the ground in such a way that Pat could not pick him up.

[Water Dragon]

Standing headlock don't necesarily mean 3rd grade headlock. But yeah, the 3rd grade version is a no-no.

[red5angel]

truewrestler, I understand your point, and for the most part I can even agree with you, but I Am hardly going to base my judgement of who one that fight between WJM and BL on one obscure reference to a headlock. I know MMA guys are tough as nails and I know they can fight, but they do not have the patents on maiming or killing or even grappling. While I know claims of death touches and special killing techniques in TMA can sometimes get absurd, I know for a fact that most of these arts do have a few so called "deadly" techniques not to be taken lightly.
In htis particular instance WJM chose to put BL in a headlock, it could have been a basic headlcok, who knows of course BL could have been so fristrated he wasn't thinking straight either, who knows, any thing we say is pure conjecture but I certainly will not base my opinion on one vague sentence.

[truewrestler]

I'm just going by what WJM said according to that article:


In pre-Revolutionary China, fights to the finish were often allowed by law, but Wong knew that in modern-day America, a crippling or killing blow, while winning a victory, might also win him a jail sentence.

That, says Wong, is why he failed to deliver a devastating right-hand blow on any of the three occasions he had Lee’s head locked under his left arm. Instead, he says, he released his opponent each time, only to have an even more enraged Bruce Lee press on with his furious attack. I take it that he thinks he could have killed Bruce with a strike while holding him in the 3rd Grade Headlock. Edit: Just the fact that he "boasted" that he had someone in the headlock was very strange.

Also....
"He would never say he lost until you killed him," says Wong. And despite his concern with the legal consequences, Wong says that killing Lee is something he began to consider. "I remember thinking, ‘If he injures me, if he really hurts me, I’ll have to kill him." So he couldn't beat him with out killing him? I don't get it

[red5angel]

If he injures me, if he really hurts me, I’ll have to kill him."


He WAS trying to end the fight in other ways, the problem according to WJM was that BL wouldn't give it up. WJM was beating him pretty soundly but BL was enraged, which matches his personality even according to BL himself, and would not let up. He even began the match by trying to strike at WJM's eyes. Now if it was me, I would probably feel the same way except that at that point, if you don't want to stop trying to hurt you, I may just try to kill you anyway and leave your body for someone else to find.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i don't give a flying fu ck but one thing i'm seeing here is that those words were written by a journalist not the dude in question. a journalist that might not have even spoken the same language primarally.

[truewrestler]

the problem according to WJM was that BL wouldn't give it up Was knocking him out too much of a chore for him? Did he think Bruce should have tapped out to the 3rd grade headlock? Does he not know how to choke someone out?

Good point GunnedDownAtrocity

[truewrestler]

Maybe MMA has just raised my standards :p

I'm done with the line of discussion :D tiring

[red5angel]

Maybe MMA has just raised my standards


:rolleyes: get over yourself and MMA, it's one way of fighting but not hardly the best. ;)

[truewrestler]

:eek: :p ;)

[red5angel]

I thought you were done ;)

I didn't realise I was getting into a discussion with someone who isn't about to open his mind a little. It's disappointing truewrestler because you have some great insight into grappling at times. Unfortunately you also have blinders on and that limits the usefulness of your comments because now they only can come from one context, disallowing other oppurtunities. To people like you, in may different arts and disciplines there is only one real answer and I am sad to say this just isn't true and is proven in a thousand different wasy everyday.

[truewrestler]

please explain...

I'm completely open to anything that works -- unfortunately the 3rd grade headlock just isn't one of those things :p

[truewrestler]

(unless you are Carlos Newton :D)

[red5angel]

you're ready to dismiss any possibility unless it basically includes some sort of mma, or so you are coming off. I would like to think you're smarter then that, no offense intended, but I am sure that there are quite a few TMA people that understand a basic headlock can be got rid of in a lot of different ways.
As it pertains to the argument, I told you I agreed a basic headlock is next to useless against anyone who knows any better, but there are several possibilities, either BL didn't know how to deal without, unlikely but possible which might explain his desire to train in more sportive type events, so he can learn to handle that sort of thing. Another possibility is that BL may have been to high strung at that point to react rationally to even the simplest of moves. A third is that something is lost in the written description of what was going on.
Your disdain for his decision to have to kill BL if BL didn't stop in trying to hurt him, pointing out a choke hold would do nicely also belies your mma tendancies. Maybe there was a different mentality about things back then? Maybe again the translation from oral to written record got confused, maybe WJM was flustered enough to not be thinking about holds or chokes? It doesn't mean he didn't know them or couldn't use them, and as you imply pretty heavily in our posts, it doesn't mean that because he doesn't study MMA he couldn't pull something like that off. Maybe he wasn't interested in that.
Who really knows what happened? I base my opinions on the research I have done. BL is a big part of the martial arts mythos, something that interested me for a time so I looked into all of it the best I could. I came to my own conclusions. those conclusions did not include me disallowing any eventuality because someone didn't have modern training:rolleyes:

Let me tell you something about what I have learned in the last few years especially, it doesn't matter what you have bene learning, what it comes down to is who has the bigger heart and who has the highest skill level. Sure there are a few bad schools out there teaching crappy martial arts but for the most part the majority of it can and does work. Some may not work for one venue, while others may or may not work so well on the street. It's a ridiculous thing to argue whether your art or style is better then anothers and shows signs of immaturity and ignorance in my opinion. Only the young and the very stupid even bother to get into an argument like that.
There are some guys on this site who know their stuff, some of them are MMA some of them are TMA. One thing almost all of them have in common is that they understand it isn't really the art at all.

[truewrestler]

you think so? well in that case Bruce could bite his testicles.

seriously though, you are exactly right... I'm sure WJM could have delivered a "killer blow" from many different or any standing headlock positions.

http://www.bullshido.com/dl_goto.asp?id=33

[truewrestler]

End of the work day... I'll respond to you later red5angel :)

just want to mention again that I am all for anything that works

[red5angel]

sigh, I don't know if I am prepared to have this conversation anymore today anyway. It could be that I am seeing something that is not there, who knows.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Was knocking him out too much of a chore for him? Did he think Bruce should have tapped out to the 3rd grade headlock? Does he not know how to choke someone out?

Good point GunnedDownAtrocity

The match didn't exactly have a referee, so you should assume that if Bruce indeed were to tap out from the headlock or choke, WJM then lets go to keep from injuring Bruce, do you think Bruce would just stop? Or do you think he'd get up and start fighting again even though he tapped?

[Shaolin-Do]

Didnt bother to read the whole thread, but are you guys arguing about theories?
lol....
In that case, Im right, and you are all wrong.
:eek:

[shaolin kungfu]

No you aren't. I'm right, you idiot.:D

[Shaolin-Do]

:(
I can always hope tho...















:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Define standing headlock. Holding one or both arms around the opponent's face or neck area from the side while both of you are standing. The opponent is usually bent over somewhat and his head is trapped in the crook of the elbow. With the two arm version, the head is locked in by grabbing the wrist or two hands together. In the single-handed version, the head is secured with one arm and death strikes are attempted with the free arm.

[truewrestler]

The match didn't exactly have a referee, so you should assume that if Bruce indeed were to tap out from the headlock or choke, WJM then lets go to keep from injuring Bruce, do you think Bruce would just stop? Or do you think he'd get up and start fighting again even though he tapped? Choke or knock Bruce out... ?

[TjD]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Holding one or both arms around the opponent's face or neck area from the side while both of you are standing. The opponent is usually bent over somewhat and his head is trapped in the crook of the elbow. With the two arm version, the head is locked in by grabbing the wrist or two hands together. In the single-handed version, the head is secured with one arm and death strikes are attempted with the free arm.


is this a description of the 3rd grade headlock? something good for nuggies and other teasing type things?

i thought a standing headlock was when you had them from behind with their neck in the crook of one arms elbow, and that arm's wrist in the crook of the other arms elbow, whose forearm was at the back of the neck to apply a choke.

or am i totally off?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by TjD


i thought a standing headlock was when you had them from behind with their neck in the crook of one arms elbow, and that arm's wrist in the crook of the other arms elbow, whose forearm was at the back of the neck to apply a choke. That would be a standing rear naked or sleeper choke.

[truewrestler]

It's a ridiculous thing to argue whether your art or style is better then anothers and shows signs of immaturity and ignorance in my opinion. Sorry but MMA is not a style if you hadn't noticed, its a sport. Whatever works works, whatever doesn't doesn't.

I just think that it is very strange that WJM would "boast" that he had Bruce in the headlock 3 times. (of course this is just one account of what WJM has said)

He wouldn't think of a choke? Was he new to fighting? Did he not think he would be fighting to win? Did he think this was light-contact sparring for points? How did he plan on finishing the fight?

Oh well, I guess we will never know what really happened in this fight.... too bad there was no film of it. I stand by my opinion though that this was probably a very messy fight similarly to the early UFCs which were prodominently inexperience traditional martial artists. Bruce then realized (whether he won or not is debatable of course) that his performance wasn't clean or pretty and realized his training methods were not geared towards real fighting.

In that same direction I believe that those trained in traditional methods, Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man, would not be able compete with fighters trained in ring sports (edit: ok, I'm talking about MMA fighters) ... especially current MMA fighters regardless of rules. Throw Matt Hughes, Carlos Newton, Pele, or any decent MMA fighter around their weight against either of these guys and it would be over in minutes if not seconds, with or without any rules.

Just my opinion so I can't be wrong :p

[TjD]

gotcha, i don't know much about grappling terminology.

i'm just a WC fighter. and as bruce lee says, our system sucks! :rolleyes:


bruce lee knew only the basics of wing chun IMHO. it's been stated many times he only new siu lim tau and chum kiu. whoopie. he knew what the hands looked liked, and he knew how to take "baby" wing chun steps.

he learned nothing about the wing chun power generation found in its wooden dummy form and biu jee (the third and last hand form). he didn't learn about its body unity gained from practicing the pole form, nor the strength it builds. he didn't learn any of the entering techniques or have any of the strength gained from the knife form.




Linda Lee, in her book Bruce Lee: The Man Only I Knew, initially dismisses the fight as follows: "The two came out, bowed formally and then began to fight. Wong adopted a classic stance whereas Bruce, who at the time was still using his Wing Chun style, produced a series of straight punches.


linda lee's comments about the fight are in line with this thinking. she stated bruce lee ran in fists-a'-flailin' - simple chain punches. this is very low level wing chun. after this she tries and play up what happens for bruce. but if this was the case theres no reason for WJM to not have wiped the floor with bruce, or at least really frustrate him.

and just like red5 said, if he whooped up WJM so badly, why would it be the foundation of changing everything he did?


i don't really follow bruce lee much, but i do tremendously respect him for his work ethic - i wish i could train that hard. however i think his arrogant attitude detracts from a lot of my respect, as well as how this painted wing chun as a martial art.

all in all, wing chun kicks ass, i don't think bruce lee was very good at it, but after all his MMA training and making JKD i have no doubt he became quite a good fighter.

[truewrestler]

How long did Bruce Lee practice Wing Chun?

[TjD]

obviously not long enough if he was throwing chain punches against wong jack man :D

**edit**
straight blast = chain punches

[truewrestler]

5, 10 , 15 years? Anyone know?

[PHILBERT]

About 5 years of Wing Chun, started around age 13 and stopped when he left Hong Kong at 18. Perhaps he still learned some stuff when he returned to Hong Kong from his former classmates.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Holding one or both arms around the opponent's face or neck area from the side while both of you are standing. The opponent is usually bent over somewhat and his head is trapped in the crook of the elbow. With the two arm version, the head is locked in by grabbing the wrist or two hands together. In the single-handed version, the head is secured with one arm and death strikes are attempted with the free arm.

OK, if he's doing that I agree he's a dumb-dumb. Standing headlock can also be done chest-to-chest, then step in and turn to break his balance over your hip and throw him. (That's not the best description, but think of doing a hip toss by surrounding his neck)

Same name, two dramatically different ideas.

[diego]

Two things i want to know out of bored curiosity...why did it take wjm two decades orso to speak up?...if he won doesn't that mean bruce had to quit teaching...did he?.

2- what did bruce say about taichi?...did he diss the art or was he just mocking all the fat masters in hong kong who talk about they killer chi but can't kill a flea?.:)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by diego
Two things i want to know out of bored curiosity...why did it take wjm two decades orso to speak up?...if he won doesn't that mean bruce had to quit teaching...did he?.


From what I understand the confrontation was not about BL teaching whites, or that if he lost he would have to stop teaching.

But I think he needed to proof himself to the local CMA community to get their support as an authorised CMA teacher.



2- what did bruce say about taichi?...did he diss the art or was he just mocking all the fat masters in hong kong who talk about they killer chi but can't kill a flea?.:)

From what I heard he is said to have studied TJQ at a young age from his father. But than he was acting at a yong age too so time might have been limited. Also during his teens he also took dancing lessons and I doubt if he skipped school.

Many of his saying are bassically pure TJQ, but I get the feeling that he never fully understood them.

Also I see very little of TJQ in his fighting or in his life, he seems to have gone for one extreme and stuck to it.

We know that he was rather arrogant even as a teen, rumours of him showing up early to class to tell the otehr students that class been canceled so that he could have private lessons, etc.

IMHO, he failed as a husband and father.

Let the flaming begin.

[TjD]

Originally posted by diego
Two things i want to know out of bored curiosity...why did it take wjm two decades orso to speak up?...if he won doesn't that mean bruce had to quit teaching...did he?.


if you read the article, it said WJM spoke up a week or two after the fight; he originally didn't because they had made an agreement to not speak of the outcome, but supposedly bruce broke that. after that he spoke out about the fight. the article said he openly challenged bruce again (if bruce thought he had won) by putting sometihng on the front page of the local chinese newspaper.

[Laughing Cow]

Isn't it common within CMA circles that what happens at the challenge stays between the participants and is not revealed to the outside.

So if BL spoke about it first, didn't he go against tradition and rules?

[truewrestler]

So if BL spoke about it first, didn't he go against tradition and rules? Well, didn't he go against a lot of traditions and rules?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Well, didn't he go against a lot of traditions and rules?

Like??