Grappling: Ah Ha!

[Ray Pina]

OK, now I see why you guys are so into this grappling. I have to say it's highly addictive. I mean, you can roll around and apply locks and counters at full power without beating the bejuses out of each other. It's really technical too, so it keeps your intrest.

One thing I've seen though playing with BJJ and Judo guys the past month and a half: they are VERY open to strikes and to being controlled when they try single/double leg take downs.

Two years ago they would have dropped me, because my Wing Chun and Southern Mantis was not at the level (at least for me) to deal with that intense, low intention. But with Hsing-I now I'm having good sucess in utilizing a long arm to control them at their shoulder, bicep, ride it out, and maintain a back hand to strike with. Not having as much success with a lead leg kick. Could be because I'm holding the strike though. But at the same time, if they can take it, or it slips off, they have good position.

Either way, it's too early to tell. Still have much to learn and test but am intersted ... a whole new dimension of fun. Who would have though putting a gi back on would be so invigerating. Viva La China still, though! Down with the Japanse!:)

[ewallace]

But with Hsing-I now I'm having good sucess in utilizing a long arm to control them at their shoulder, bicep, ride it out, and maintain a back hand to strike with.

Do you think it would have been possible for you to pull that off in a real life situation had you not actually tested it out and gotten comfortable with it?

It is quite an eye-opener eh? :)

[truewrestler]

One thing I've seen though playing with BJJ and Judo guys the past month and a half: they are VERY open to strikes and to being controlled when they try single/double leg take downs.

You should try takedowns with wrestlers :p

Sounds like some good experience

[Ray Pina]

I had one huge advantage -- actually two -- in my favor. Each time I played with these grapplers I KNEW they were going to be shooting. That's big. The other, except for two of the guys, I out weighted them.

If I faced these men blind (not knowing their style before hand), it's hard to tell. My technique is developing in such a way as that I am reacting to the other less and less and just doing my own thing. But I am aware of the difference between training and full out fighting a stranger (that goes both ways however).

Still much to learn. I'm just thankful that I have a teacher that is capable of opening up this world to me and training partners that are skilled but kind. We work hard but no real injuries.

This stuff is fun though ... maybe too much so.

[ewallace]

Sounds cool. Good luck to you.

[Shaolin-Do]

Cross training is fun :)
Its good to see what other styles offer and how they stack up against you and your style.
Havent been rolling for a month or so now... f*Cked up shoulder, bout to start again tho.
All the people I know who grapple outweigh me by atleast 20+ lbs... hehehe :)

[MatT3T4]

Everyone should know grappling, but there are two VERY distinct problems with it that I see, and have encountered.

1) When you drop on pavement...it hurts. When you roll on pavement...it hurts.

2) Fending off more than one person, and you are in a bit of a bind.

The thing that has become extremely apparent to me is that NO one system is perfect, and you'll probably get your ass kicked if you rely on only ONE system, if you come up against a formidable opponent. Like Bruce Lee said, be water. If you can adapt to each situation you are put in, you have better chances of coming out alive.

[Ka]

Not too many people need submitting after a good takedown

for example www.badbreed.tv/webvideos/slam-1.wmv

Close clinch underhook sink dump
Good reason to learn plan old wresting for moves off the clinch.:D

[joedoe]

Jesus. That looked nasty. Looked like the guy landed badly enough to possibly break his neck.

[Ka]

You can hit them with your Body
I will hit them with the Earth:D

I love takedowns

[ewallace]

Ooohhh...that was nasty. Do you have any info on who those fighters were?

[truewrestler]

there was a thread about the clip at MMA.tv a while back. The KOed fighter was fine.

[ewallace]

I'm more interested in the guy who chucked him. :)

[truewrestler]

he was fine too :p

[Ravenshaw]

Takedowns are awesome. But I seem to remember reading a couple years ago in a KFQG mag with master Tao on the cover that the Chinese military police openly discourage taking it to the ground. I think they cited reasons like debris, the factor that weight plays into it, and losing a sidearm easily. Although they learn groudfighting, they don't go there if they don't have to.

[Shaolin-Do]

"When you drop on pavement...it hurts. When you roll on pavement...it hurts. "

Ive wrastled out front in the street belligerantly drunk before... Woke up with some scrapes, but sure didnt hurt during the drunken wrastle.... :)

[truewrestler]

I have rolled and wrestled in some strange places with friends without any problem. Being slammed is different all together... which is why learning defense is important :)

[Ray Pina]

My interest in learning the ground game is simple: it's something out there that people know and I want to be well versed in it. 1) know it, 2) know how to stop it.

That clip above was kind of weak. The guy that got taken down was turned from the other guys initial lead in strikes. At that point you can apply anything you want. A grappler chose to take him down. I would have chose to follow up on the turned side with a strike taking him more that way. A forearm where the elbow attacks his upperarm and the fist his face. A good knee into his thigh and set up the right uppercut.

What I'm really learning is that, no matter the game, the better man wins.

[Shaolin-Do]

"What I'm really learning is that, no matter the game, the better man wins."

Hasnt that always been the case?

I like to practice and know bjj just cause it helps me when anyone tries to take me to the ground... makes it a lot easier to avoid shoots when you know its comming as well.

[Ray Pina]

Seems simple enough, but you wouldn't think that from some of the posts here: my 2 year wing chun will defeat your 10 year TKD but fall victim to your 3 month BJJ but fall ill to the shadown of so-and-so's long gone master.

Smarts, power and the ability to change ... that's what it's about, isn't it?

[Ka]

EF I think your Focus is self defence?
But I'm lost, the "Better Man" whats the better man?The one with lots of mates?One with a better lineage?
Sure smarts etc are elements but without intent/mental determination to survive I think its pointless discussing "Better" or "Superior" skills.Above clip was people with minimal training.Resulting in a convincing finish.

Intent is the characteristic I put my money on.Usually it(intent) is developed in hand with exposure to experience.
So if Combat is your focus,get out and into it.
If MA is more then that to you(as I hope it is) then please continue to enjoy it.

[Ray Pina]

I define the "better man" like this:

When I'm better than you in chess, I can make a bad move and still beat you. Against an equal or better player ONE bad move = defeat.

Martial arts are the same way. I have a friend who always disses karate. Now, that's a part of my past but still, I put a lot of blood sweat and tears into my Isshin-Ryu as a kid.

I said alright. I'll use karate. A real strong intent side kick (which I held because his running was poor and I would have gotten him good. My foot was less than a foot from his ribs and still caged) brought his hands down and reverse punch stopped right infront of his face.

I beat him with a sidekick/reverse punch. There is nothing skilled or technical about that.

He's a Hung Gar guy. I wanted him to see sometimes it's not what you do but how you do it. He was used to his teacher dissing on karate and TKD and demonstrating weak kicks. When he faced a full on charging side kick from a 200-pounder, he froze.

That's what I mean by the better guy wins. Who keeps his cool, who has better intention. Of course that comes with experience. But sometimes people "get" things quicker than others, so it's not simply a matter of time. Of course their is also the age/size factor.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive seen pretty small guys with no MA training beat up pretty big dudes with no MA training... hehehe
Its all about maintaining, letting the eb and flow take you where you need be.