Yantai, Wah Lum, Da Beng Bu

[mantis108]

The question of Wah Lum's Big Mantis came up from time to time. I practice 2 version of Yantai Beng Bu which is known as Da Bengbu because of extensive use of Deng Shan shi as oppose to Xiao Shi that are frequently used in Laying Beng Bu. I also have seen a version of Wah Lum's Big Mantis which I believe it to be very likely that it is loosely based on the Da Bengbu. This is of course subject to the WL version that I have seen is a "truthful" representation.

To look at the evolutions of Bengbu, I use the following "genetic markers".

1) it has 4 roads.
2) The moves before and after each turns should be intact (ie first road turning into the second road.)
3) Signature techniques or highlights of the form remain intact. (the elbow sequence of the first road, Ge Zhou sequence of the 2nd rd, elbow seq. at the end of 2nd rd, Gaoji bu seq. of the 3rd, etc... most importantly the waist chop at the end)
4) The stance(s) that is most frequently used (ie Dengshan Shi)

These 4 requisites can fairly easily be satisfied by the WL Big Mantis althought openning and closing sections posted some puzzling signals. In the open sequence, it would seem that it is somewhat close to CCK TCPM's version, which some suggest that it might be one of the oldest known version of Bengbu. In fact the whole first and second road of WL Big Mantis suggested to me that it is highly possible that it relates to TJPM's Bengbu(s). The more difficult task is to figure out the closing sequence of WL Big Mantis where it seems to have not included the waist chop. There is a rather strange move of a twisted stance and 2 arms formed mantis claws facing each other holding vertically in front of the body; then there is a turning out the twist. I would think this is a "representation" of the waist chop. So in essence the waist chop is still done but in a different manner. Aside from this, there are couple of stylistic "innovations" such a southern one finger pose accompanied with a shout and quite a bit more kicks than the average Bengbu(s) would have. Btw, the eye-poking moves and flipping palms are omitted in the WL Big Mantis. I surmise this is more a stylistic vision matter. It doesn't IMHO change the fact that it is recognizablely Yantai Bengbu.

In conclusion, it is to the best of my knowledge that WL Big Mantis is indeed Da Bengbu with Wah Lum Tan Tui flavor. It is unique to its own class.

Mantis108

[SaMantis]

Wow, interesting breakdown. I really enjoy all the discussion on this forum about form origins, stylistic variations, etc. Something akin to an anthropological study of mantis development. Thanks, mantis108 (and everyone else on past threads). :)

[Joe Mantis]

Mantis 108,

Could you explain: Ge Zhou & Gaoji bu pleeease.

Thanks,

Joe Mantis

[mantis108]

Hi SaMantis,

Glad you enjoy the thread. I too find the KFO's Mantis broad very informative and progressive in bringing many knowledgeable PM folks together. I hope we will enjoy and benefit from all the exchanges on and off the KFO. Thank you for the support. :)

Hi Joe Mantis,

Thanks for the question. :)

Ge Zhou in TJPM tradition generally refers to hitting with the outer edge (pinky side) of the forearm. It can be done either horizontally or vertically. I must clarify that this is not Pi (chopping) which is more straight armed. In a sense Ge Zhou has Pi motion but it's not heavy as Pi. Ge can be think of as block, parry, and chop all in one. I also think that Gun Shou (binding hand) is one technique that make use of Ge zhou as well.

Gaoji Bu is the low sweeping hook kick with the mantis claw for taking down the opponent. BTW, not all PM style perform the Gaoji Bu with the PM claw. It could be sort of a grab instead. It is IMHO one of the fundamental techniques of Mantis.

Hope this helps.

Mantis108

[Joe Mantis]

Mantis 108,

Thanks for the info.

Also what is "Deng Shan Shi" & Xiao Shi"?

I think the Kuo Sow (One finger pose) comes from MC's southern background. This is just a guess though.

The extra kicking could be from Lee Kwan Shan's influence of his Tam Tui style as well.

Thanks,

Joe Mantis

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantis108
Excellent analysis of the forms but it brings a question to mind. How much can a form change and still be considered the same? In music I believe there is a limited number of consecutive notes that can be the same and yet be a different song. Another form with the same core elements would be a distinctly different form, no?

[mantis108]

Hi Joe Mantis,

Thanks for the info. Really appreciate that.

Deng Shan Shi is bow & arrow or Forward stance.

Xiao Shi is minor or kneeling stance. In 7*, this is known as Ru Huan (entering circle).


Hi Hau Lin Laoshi

Great question! :D Now, I am not particulary music savvy. ;) I think I would think of it in terms of Jazz. Say you have a base, a drum, and piano. You are going to play "Somewhere Over the Rainbow", however you and your guys decided to jam with a clarinet and/or even vocal. Now the arrangement can be different and enriched with the extra instrument. Under this set up, would you still consider the tune "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"? Or is it something totally different? Arguably, this is a half full half empty question. I suppose we could rename the tune to reflect the changes (the extra free styling segments of the clarinet) but the fact that original tune serves as the backbone of the new arrangement could not be overlooked. Once the 2 are played side by side, the common root will be clear. Don't you think?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Joe Mantis]

Thanks Robert again.

Hua Lin, very interesting question which leads me to another:

Can WL be considered another style of PM? Who much Mantis must be in a system for it to be Mantis?
I remember reading an Inside KF and the article was talking about different KF styles in HOng Kong. IT mentioned the "leg detecting" praying mantis style. I understood it to refer to WL.

I know Tainan wrote on another thread about 3 common forms amongst PM styles today.....

Discuss amongst ourselves. :D

[18elders]

The sad part is we will probably never find out about the style of the original wah lum forms taught by LKS. I think he would have taught some original praying mantis forms he learned from the wah lum temple. It is difficult to research the lineage but i think the wah lum today has gone further away from the original mantis from LKS. You would think with LKS teaching in various places and countries there would be more info on it but there isn't.
What makes a style mantis? I don't think just having some forms with some mantis hooks here and there and a few other techniques should make it a mantis system. It should be majority mantis and have the mantis theory behind their techniques as well as training methods.

I think someone in wah lum should ask master chan the questions, who was chin yeung's teacher and are there any of LKS kung fu brothers anywhere? Are there any pure mantis sets?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

D-amn, looks like I did it again. Hold on, I think I hear the phone ringing.

mantis108
I'm not real music savvy either but had some friends who played cover songs in a bar I used to frequent. I had other friends who played there one week who tried to create their own songs instead of covering others. Basically their songs where modified versions of popular hits by other bands. That's what the first band said. They explained to me that certain changes need to be made to 'legally' be considered an original work. Things such as a limit to how many consecutive notes can be the same. It didn't matter what instruments were played.

I'd really like to hear from others on this. How many moves, or sequence of moves, have to be the same for the form to be the same. If I took all the moves from Beng Bu and rearranged them would it still be Beng Bu?

Joe Mantis
More than just 'how much Mantis' but what aspects of Mantis need to be incorporated into the system to be considered Mantis?

If you don't teach the keyword formula but adhere to the principles in practice is it still Mantis?

18elders
"I don't think just having some forms with some mantis hooks here and there and a few other techniques should make it a mantis system."
What would be your minimum requirements to be considered a Mantis system? The more I learn of other Mantis styles the more I see of it in WL.
"Are there any pure mantis sets?" What other styles do you see in Big Mantis or Little Mantis?

I still suspect that the higher you go in WL the more Mantis you get. That seems to be the trend as far as I can see. I've heard that because of the difficulty in learning Mantis some schools start you off with Long Fist or some generic type of Kung Fu before you learn any Mantis. That could be the case with WL.

[Frogman]

I think little mantis is awesome, even being relatively short and repetitious I just love the grab and smack down!!! As for the other forms I have not reached that point. Pure Mantis?? I was under the impression that the 12 techniques of the mantis and techniques from 18 other styles including the monkey footwork is what made up the original mantis system. To perform pure mantis you need four hind legs and forward hooks. You would be a bada$$ no doubt but you’d have a he!! of a time getting a date.
:D
RibHit
fm

[Tainan Mantis]

Frogman,
There is something interesting about little Mantis.
Like Beng Bu aka Big Mantis, it has another name...
Tie men suan. Iron Door Bolt.

This info comes from MC Chan's older kung fu brother Chan Wanching.

The interesting part is that this name comes up as a technique in some of the most ancient, or at least what I think is the most ancient, manuscripts of Mantis.

I suspect that the single finger"yee" in this form is or was double sealing hands(shuang feng shou) since the double sealing hands in WL Beng Bu has become single finger"yee"

[Lohan Fury]

I remember my sifu telling me it was also called "bolting the iron door" when I learned it. I think it refers to the leg throw in the beginning sequence of the form. Of course, I could very well be wrong. I'm not nearly as well versed in PM terminology as you guys.. By the way, does anyone know the connection between Little Mantis and Big Mantis?

[Frogman]

Tainan,
Thanks for the info. Iron Door Bolt, that’s cool. I know that the single finger yee is in several WL forms. I heard that this is a southern flavor, I have also read that this was a Shaolin North/South?? thing. You may be able to confirm this. I am not sure of all the applications for this technique but can see it used for several practical defensive moves. I have used the concept of holding a semi ridged hand that can deflect grab or sense your opponent. I enjoy exploring the many uses of even the simplest techniques. I also like the first grab in the beginning, the under hand and grab pull back. You can make a lot of noise doing little mantis another thing I like about it. Thanks again.

RibHit
fm

[Lohan Fury]

Mantis 108, in the version of wl big mantis you saw, was there an eye poke at the beginning of the (fourth?) road done simultaneously with a right toe kick? I think it would be the fourth road. The version I know has this towards the end. In my school, we call it "double dragons fighting over the pearls"...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lohan Fury
Four years in Northern Mantis and you know Wah Lum Big Mantis?
Mind if I ask how you managed that?

[Lohan Fury]

Hua Lin, you read my profile. Right place, right time. It's that simple. :D

[mantis108]

Hi Lohan Fury,

Thanks for the input. Indeed, there is an eye-poke as you described it in the 4th rd. What was I think? lol... BTW, now the you mention it may the couple of retreating "grab" accompanied by the kick near the end of the 3rd Rd was a representation of the flipping palm. So this would mean that key elements are mostly there. Just some are done differently and some are at different places but largely the orders of the moves loosely matches Bengbu.

BTW, does anyone have written Quanpu (manuscript) or know of a Quanpu on Big Mantis? I think it would help the research for those who are interested. I am not asking to acquire one. I am just asking out of curiocity and hope that this type of material exsits for the sake of the Wah Lum Clan. :)

Hi All,

About the Tie Men Suan (Iron Door Bolt). I regreted that I didn't have enough time to work on that with Tainan when he visited me. There were already so much to work on. Nevertheless, I got a good glimspe on the IDB aka Little Mantis. I wish I could see the leg throw mentioned by Lohan Fury to verify my thoughts. Anyway, from what I gathered, I am quite curious about the connection of this form and the Qi Shou (7 hands). The sequences of the 2 forms seem loosely matches. The left and right Pu tui in Tie Men Suan seem to be at the place where the 2 Gaoji Bu are found in the Qi Shou as well. If in fact TMS has throws and takedowns, it is very similar at least in theme with the QS. The theme and very well the concept IMHO is about Tie Men Kao Bei (paste to the gate and lean/crash against the wall) in both forms. This concept was prominant close quartered combat wisdom. BTW, the name Iron Door Bolt strongly suggested the gates [of the opponent] are closed and the walls are solid. Of course there are more kicking action going on in the Wah Lum Tie Men Suan. I wonder if it is possible that Tie Men Suan and Qi Shou are aliases of the same form. Could they be variations to each other?

It will be interesting to investigate if at all there is a connnection.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Joe Mantis]

Mantis 108,

I think a simple solution would be to ask Chan Pui.
Unfortuantely as a former WLer I don't think that I would be well received in order to ask questions.

BUT...
maybe a Mantis "Scholar" who has not done WL and is merely seeking to bring history together.... maybe that person would recieve a warm welcome.
HMMM could be an article in MQ?????

Maybe Hua Lin could find that info out as well.

I can't yet see the connection betwenn Tie Men Suan an Qi Shou....
comments anyone.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lohan Fury
Lucky you. Most have to train for quite some time before getting to that form. There are 2 takedowns near the beginning of the form. I take it you're referring to the second one where your opponent is tripped over your left leg? Also, PM me anytime. I'm a good guy.:D

Joe Mantis
I don't see the connection either but then I didn't see the similarity between Beng Bu and Big Mantis. Guess you need to be a little more abstract when evaluating them.

mantis108
Sorry but you lost me with your terminology. I'll have to start taking notes. :) I think I follow the Gaoji Bu but please explain the Pu Tui. I'm wondering if the hand movements in the two takedowns would resemble pulling a bolt on a large door and locking it down.

[yu shan]

Hi Mantis 108

With all due respect, I can only see a few movements that can seem to relate in some way. Although the over-all theme of each seems similar. I think WL`s version has alot more to it. I know the 7* and Eight-Step version. Qi Shou may be an entry level form, but it sure is fun. Especially when doing the two-man version, really gets going.

Pong Lai taught me to apply Fa-Jing, really makes a differance. I think ALOT of school`s are not taught this energy. What is your take on Fa-Jing? This is very important to my Shrfu, he really stresses this to me.

Gaoji Bu: WL version hangs leg up after sweep, practiced for years this way. Pong Lai painfully taught me to quickly sweep and bring leg down, to protect from back leg being kicked out. I also execute Gaoji Bu with a arm break and a chop to the head area. My application is similar in both Qi Shou and Beng Bu. What do you think? And if Tainan Mantis is reading, what are your thoughts?

Have a good weekend.

YS

[Tainan Mantis]

YS,
I don't think the mechanics of fajing are something that are easily explained in writing.
You have to see it and feel it...so ...

I don't think 7 hands of 8 Step and Little Mantis of WL are related except to say that they are both definetly PM.

Actually I thought Little Mantis was a litlle like Luanjie's First move"5 Strikes Interlocking Smashes"

If WL people see 7 Hands they would take it to be an extremely basic form.
More so than 16 Hands.

While in 8 Step this form is seen as an essential step towards the learning process.

I was speaking to Zuo Hsienfu the other day(holder of the flag in Taiwan).
And he was explaining how important the partner forms 7 Hands and Lipi are for understanding 8 Step's approach to fighting.

BTW,
For those who have seen the ancient footage of GM Wei and his students doing these and other forms.

He said that the video version is somewhat different from the way GM Wei taught them.

Also, where GM Wei pauses and laughs while performing 2nd Zhai Yao is the spot he left out a few techniques in filming.

But, back to the topic.
GM Wei has made the 8 Step system so that you can fight using 8 Step with only learning a minimal amount of material.
-8 stances
-8 moving steps.

2 man
-7 Hands
-Lipi
-Pai An

Plus
-hsiao fanche
-da fanche
-zhai Yao


Frogman,
I think single finger"yee" is southern influence.

Shuang Feng double sealing is one of the essential hands of PM.
In WL Beng Bu shuang feng was replaced with single finger"yee"

Mantis Siezes the Cicada is called Tang Lang Shuang Feng Hsia /Mantis Double Seal Down in...
-Lipi of 8 Step
-Several forms of Meihua Mantis such as Meihua Lu...

[Tainan Mantis]

I should mention that WL's single finger"yee" and double seal are very similar and that single finger can be applied the same as double seal.

[mantis108]

First off, I would like to thank you for all the great input. Second, I would like to also thank Hua Lin Lao Shi and Lohan Fury for their private email offering great help. BTW, it's quite a nice site you've got there Hua Lin Lao Shi. :) I will be replying to your emails shortly.

I think the Qishou form would make an excellent thread on its own. I will open another thread on it. Here I will address both Yu Shan and Tainan's thoughts in the following posts.

I am very impressed with the positive attitude that I have been receiving from the Wah Lum folks so far. You are quite open minded and progressive. This is so far a great Wah Lum discussion thread. Although I am not a member of Wah Lum, your friendships really mean a lot to me. Thank you guys.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Frogman]

I agree this is a great thread and I for one have gotten a lot out of it in just seeing some of what I know and some of what is yet to come plus the similarities between the different styles. I think we all can learn more this way. Thanks again to everyone for the insight.

RibHit
fm

[mantis108]

Hi Hua Lin Lao Shi


Sorry but you lost me with your terminology. I'll have to start taking notes. I think I follow the Gaoji Bu but please explain the Pu Tui. I'm wondering if the hand movements in the two takedowns would resemble pulling a bolt on a large door and locking it down.

I think the takedowns that you are talking about are the pu tui that I am referring to. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to download your clip about the Little Mantis on your site. Pu tui is when the weight is shifted all the way to the rear leg and you go low close to the ground with the front leg extended straight. If I remember correctly this is done after the punch in the horse stance. Is this close or am I way off?

Hi Yu Shan

<<<With all due respect, I can only see a few movements that can seem to relate in some way. Although the over-all theme of each seems similar. I think WL`s version has alot more to it. I know the 7* and Eight-Step version. Qi Shou may be an entry level form, but it sure is fun. Especially when doing the two-man version, really gets going.>>>

I agreed it is loosely based and Little Mantis does have a lot more to it. 7 hands is really my pet threoy that it is perhaps the fundamental even the mother of a few different forms.

TJPM Luanjie
CCK TCPM Lanjie and Jiegun (swiftly follow).
WL Tie Men Suan aka Little Mentis [admittedly this is by a long shot]

So we have about 4 1/4 - 5 forms that are contain similar sequences, theme, concepts, etc... now is there possibly a connect between them besides that fact that they are mantis forms? That's my question. There might not be and I would be happy if someone prove me wrong. So I don't go on to a wild goose chase. But for the time being these forms suggested to me it is more than just a coincidence meaning the old masters create forms from a source of inspiration which in this case IMHO was the Qishou. Of course, Luanjie is so sophisticated that it is more a highlights of Bazhou to me.

<<<Pong Lai taught me to apply Fa-Jing, really makes a differance. I think ALOT of school`s are not taught this energy. What is your take on Fa-Jing? This is very important to my Shrfu, he really stresses this to me.>>>

I think that's the beauty of simple forms. It gives focus to really work on essential stuff such as Fa-jing. I am not sure how Ponglai shows this but the way Tainan showed me was with the Kao Da method. It is very comprehensive and easily to learn and train with his method. This shows how strong the teaching ability of Tainan is. I also benefited from his method that I further developed training the scissors kick takedown with the Kao Da method.

Fa-Jing is IMHO the 4th dimension of Kung Fu. So timing is equally important in the equation. I think a lot of people think of Fajing in terms of the sudden burst of enegry while doing solo forms. While it is a great expression of Fajing, it is not truely refined until it is being worked through with 2 men practice. So Shrfu Shr and his students including Tainan and Ponglai and his grandstudents have tremendous advantage in this area of practice.

<<<Gaoji Bu: WL version hangs leg up after sweep, practiced for years this way. Pong Lai painfully taught me to quickly sweep and bring leg down, to protect from back leg being kicked out. I also execute Gaoji Bu with a arm break and a chop to the head area. My application is similar in both Qi Shou and Beng Bu. What do you think? And if Tainan Mantis is reading, what are your thoughts?>>>

I think the hanging the leg up is more for performing purposes and to show the "leg strength" and/or follow through action. If overdone, it could lead to bad habit. If you can secure the hands, thus unbalanced the opponent before executing the sweep, the danger of get your rear leg being kick out is very low. Unless of course, he knows the counter, and fajing counter for that matter, then you are toasted. lol... :D The WL way seem to have a deep "Diao Shou" action going on with the sweep. I take it that it meant to accomplish the unbalancing first. I believe if it is well explained in the application it should not be too much of a concern. After all, Kung Fu is about awareness. If the stylists are aware of the strength and weakness of a move, it should not present any problem to the stylists. Tainan showed me the same way you do it. It's great. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan,

<<<I don't think the mechanics of fajing are something that are easily explained in writing.>>>

Yes and no. I think you, Ponglai and some others have done a great job in make this difficult task seems much more easier and approachable even in written format. So don't sell yourself short. ;)

<<<You have to see it and feel it...so ...>>>

Whole heartedly agreed.

<<<I don't think 7 hands of 8 Step and Little Mantis of WL are related except to say that they are both definetly PM.

Actually I thought Little Mantis was a litlle like Luanjie's First move"5 Strikes Interlocking Smashes">>>

You know I strongly agreed but where would Luanjie came from. I mean what would be the first inspiration came from?

<<<If WL people see 7 Hands they would take it to be an extremely basic form.
More so than 16 Hands.>>>

Yes, indeed 7 hands seems extremely basic. But it is definitely more than meets the eyes. I love this form despite the fact that this is not a CCK TCPM form, yet it blends amazingly well with TCPM applications. If I were to do a seminar on mantis figthing strategy this would be the form that I would show.

<<<While in 8 Step this form is seen as an essential step towards the learning process.>>>

I couldn't have agreed more although I am coming from a TCPM perspective.

<<<I was speaking to Zuo Hsienfu the other day(holder of the flag in Taiwan).
And he was explaining how important the partner forms 7 Hands and Lipi are for understanding 8 Step's approach to fighting.

BTW,
For those who have seen the ancient footage of GM Wei and his students doing these and other forms.

He said that the video version is somewhat different from the way GM Wei taught them.

Also, where GM Wei pauses and laughs while performing 2nd Zhai Yao is the spot he left out a few techniques in filming.>>>

Great info. Thanks

<<<But, back to the topic.
GM Wei has made the 8 Step system so that you can fight using 8 Step with only learning a minimal amount of material.
-8 stances
-8 moving steps.

2 man
-7 Hands
-Lipi
-Pai An

Plus
-hsiao fanche
-da fanche
-zhai Yao>>>

That's minimal amount. :confused: :D lol... sorry, can't help it. That takes a lifetime to achieve, man! Seriously, I hear you and I feel the same way.

<<<Frogman,
I think single finger"yee" is southern influence.

Shuang Feng double sealing is one of the essential hands of PM.
In WL Beng Bu shuang feng was replaced with single finger"yee"

Mantis Siezes the Cicada is called Tang Lang Shuang Feng Hsia /Mantis Double Seal Down in...
-Lipi of 8 Step
-Several forms of Meihua Mantis such as Meihua Lu>>>

I often wonder about Tanglang Shuangfeng Hisa. It great to know thanks.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[18elders]

7 hands is also one of my favs, yes it is short and basic but nice techniques. Allows you to apply proper body movement.
Was lucky to have Master Shr teach me

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis108,
I think the inspiration of Luanjie comes from the 7th hard technique of Mantis.

Later I will do a write up on this when I have time.

BTW,
I don't like to teach 7 Hands to beginners because there are too many nuances to the movement that are hard to follow.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantis108

I think the takedowns that you are talking about are the pu tui that I am referring to. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to download your clip about the Little Mantis on your site. Pu tui is when the weight is shifted all the way to the rear leg and you go low close to the ground with the front leg extended straight. If I remember correctly this is done after the punch in the horse stance. Is this close or am I way off?

You are correct but I would think that Pu Tui would be some type of kick. That move would be Die Bok Ma in WL although there might be a name for the actual takedown. For some reason that clip doesn't seem to play for most people. Don't know why since the same camera was used for all 3 videos.

[TaiChiFist]

Hi all,

I was wondering if Master Chan teaches this form as Big Mantis or does he call it Beng Bu? My shifu, Frank Paolillo, was one of his earliest students from Boston and recieved his teacher's certificate from Master Chan. Although he is no longer affliliated with Wah Lum, he keeps in regular contact with Master Chan and has a good relationship with him.

Shifu was taught a form called Beng Bu and I was wondering maybe in Master Chan's earlier days he called Big Mantis Beng Bu. Has anyone else here studied with Master Chan in his early days before he built the temple in Tampa?

I have to clarify that I don't practice Wah Lum. I am learning Chen Tai Chi and Bagua from Shifu and was thinking of learning the form Beng Bu.

Thanks!!!

[18elders]

it was called beng bu in the early days and then MC changed it to big mantis although in the student hand book the chinese characters for the form say beng bu.
I went to china with your shrfu (frank) in 93, he was my first shrfu's teacher(arthur).

[yu shan]

Been corresponding with a student under Shrfu Tom Turcotte, a former patriarch of WL. He says the same, BM was called BB in old days. ****, guess I`m going to dust off the cobwebs from this Big Mantis, and really give it a good look!

Hua Lin

Wah Lum uses Cantonese terminology, people here are using Mandarin...far as I can tell. :)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
You are correct. Cantonese, Mandarin or English. I'll take what I can get and figure it all out later. As you know I don't wait around for things to get handed to me because I don't expect to live that long.

TaiChiFist
I've been in Wah Lum since 1990 and it's been Big Mantis as far as I can remember. We use a mix of Chinese and English for the form names. Some are known by the Chinese name and others only by the English name.

Anyone have a clue as to the name of the WL version of Luan Jie?

[yu shan]

The Wah Lum Style first off, has no real documentation. This is very important in the MA world. If a style has any creditability, there would be serious documentation. Not much at all can be found on Wah Lum. Very curious about the link between Mantis and this WL Temple...and all the Southern (CLF) & (HG) influence. And the Tan Tui. If you can give us some details or information, please prove me wrong. Thank you.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I may be wrong but as I understand it there was a Northern and Southern WL Temple. The northern Temple was completely destroyed. I believe that's where LKS hid out and learned the Mantis style. Most likely he decided not to return to the Escort service and travelled to the sourthern Temple to live out his life in peace. The southern WL Temple survived until the cultural revolution when it was disguised as a library (I think) to avoid destruction. It was re-discovered in 1997/98. MC was hoping to find some records of LKS at the Temple during the 1998 China trip but I don't believe he found anything. The Temple is currently being restored to it's original design.

[yu shan]

This story has suspicion written all over it. Not to discredit you, Hua Lin Laoshi, but this story seems to change every few years. If WL`s LKS was so great, there should be documentation.

In defense of Hua Lin Laoshi, this Shifu has a Lion`s Heart and means well for the MA World and people in general... juuuss wish he would come train with us in Tampa. :)

[Joe Mantis]

Also want to hear about the other student's of LKS. Where are they?
Don't they train and have students.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
"If WL`s LKS was so great, there should be documentation."
I think this is part of the problem. First, I speak for myself and not as a WL historian or official representative. I want to make that clear in case I say something 'unapproved'.

I think LKS was just one of the many professional escorts of his day and not some great historical hero. He was good enough to take out a few of the fiercest bandits of the time but smart enough to hide out at a monestary when the others were looking to kill him. If he had stuck around and managed to kill them all he probably would have been a widely recognized hero.

Also, being a hired killer he may have kept a low profile and chose not to reveal much of his past to his students or others. He had to bail out of Vietnam because he killed someone there. And he was older then. How much killing did he do in his youth?

If it wasn't for MC's promotion of WL in the States I think it would have faded away into obscurity by now. LKS created WL and apparently MC is the only one to have done something with what he learned. The rest either don't care or took what they knew to the grave.

BTW, the story I told was what I've pieced together myself and not told to me by anyone in WL. I don't know what you were told but the discovery of the southern WL Temple leads me to believe that was LKS's connection to Canton.

[NorthernMantis]

I think that's the southern shaolin temple you mean.

btw yu shan not all great fighters or styles have much documentation.There's different versions of the hung fist being brought to light every minute (northern and southern hung versions). To tell the truth in my opinion I beleive documentation has only become very improtant the last couple of years and I doubt it was something much to be cared about back in the day like the later qing dynasty and early pre communist era when you had everything going haywire. Now lineage however is tottally different. Well in my view I think that lks wasn't looking to build a name but just trying to get by.

Like hl mentioned the're were lot's of good escorts in those days who didn't become famous enough to be written down.

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis

I maybe a Mantis "Scholar" who has not done WL and is merely seeking to bring history together.... maybe that person would recieve a warm welcome.
HMMM could be an article in MQ?????


Joe Mantis,

Though not a scholar myself, I am seeking to bring history of the system and its branches into some focus for those, like me, who don't know.

We have and continue to make overtures to the Wah Lum community. I hope that as time goes by they too will offer articles and support as so many others have already done. I personally believe that as the publication continues and shows that it is going to be around they too will open their doors so that we can all appreciate the work of LKS and Master Chan.

I might get that interview yet;)

Steve Cottrell

[Joe Mantis]

MantisifuFW

I hope you do get the interview. I think that MC has a lot to contribute to the mantis discussion. At least his experience of LKS and his training methods. I would love to talk with him but I'm not sure how well received I'd be.

Good luck!