Original 5 animal quan

[bodhitree]

Does anyone know where to get info on the original 5 animal quan? Supposedly each of the 5 only had 6 postures originaly, just curious to see what todays have evolved from! Thanks for any replies.

[NorthernShaolin]

You can start with Robert Smith's book: Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing-printed in 1964. Out of print now but it is a starting point.

[Shaolinlueb]

we talking about masta dahma and the 18 ahmed methods and the 5 animals play; bear, tiger, ape crane, deer??

i got that from a national geographic documentary on shaolin.

[bodhitree]

Shaolinleub
no, the origingal 5 qian are Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane, and Leapord. I think the animal play you are speaking of comes from a system called wu chin tse, however I may be wrong but I'm sure the above animals are the first 5 shaolin.

[Lao Long]

Dear friend

the system what you seek is named Wu Fang Sheng Quan and means 5 Animals Immitating Boxing. This kind of Shaolin Knowledge is not something that you can learn or see if you are not a monk; and i mean a real Monk.

Some techniques of this style are common in Wu Xing Quan but its is only a small part of the 5 animals.

Hu (Tiger), Long (Dragon), She (snake), Pao (Leopard) and Ho (Crane) are the basic animals of this style. For history Monk Shi Jue Yuan created arround 1240.

I hope i 've been helpfull.

[johngreenhow]

I'm currently learning a version of WuXingBaFa, which I think is "Five Elements, Eight Ways".

It has five animals, Eagle, Tiger, Leopard, Crane and Dragon, but it seems strange to me that it's called "5 elements" instead of "5 animals". Makes me think of the Taoist thing where there are 5 elements to Buddisms four. But everyone is adament that this is a Shaolin form and doesn't have a Taoist background.

I'm told that this form (and other forms that are combinations of animals) were developed after the individual animal forms.

Anyone shed more light on this? How's it related to the five animal form that replaces Eagle with Snake?

Thanks for your time,

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by bodhitree
Shaolinleub
no, the origingal 5 qian are Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane, and Leapord. I think the animal play you are speaking of comes from a system called wu chin tse, however I may be wrong but I'm sure the above animals are the first 5 shaolin.


thats what I thought but i saw that program and it confused me. thanks man.

[Lao Long]

Bodhidharma is the founding patriarch of shaolin temple. Some of his accomplishments were the development of yi jin jing and si sui jing for the practitioners of Chan Buddhism.

From this base, shaolin Wu Gong ( not Wu Shu ) blossomed into a multitude of styles. The early styles were involved in a basic routine (hard style) called Wuxingbafa (five animal 8 methods) Wu Gong ( not Wu Shu ). The Tiger form was for developing muscular strength, Crane developed the qi, Dragon was for the spirit, Snake form developed the jing, and the leopard created tendon agility.

The eight methods included hand techniques, leg techniques, grappling, qigong, meditation, sound, secret techniques).

Wuxingbafa Quan. (Five Elements/Animals, Eight Directions Boxing) this is the most accurate translation for your style.

As for the Eagle instaed Snake there is a story for this.

Master Da Mo while meditating he saw a fight between a snake and an eagle. Some said that the snake wins some said that the eagle wins but in fact both animals stoped fighting. After a while Damo creat some kind of fighting techniques. This little story made some teachers usually from South Shaolin to use Eagle Techniques instead of Snake. Usually in North Shaolin they use Snake or both.

I hope this helps.....

[r.(shaolin)]

"For history Monk Shi Jue Yuan created arround 1240."

Lao Long, I noticed that you say 'history' so what is the source of this date?

r.

[johngreenhow]

Lao Long,

Thanks!

[Lao Long]

When you seek you can find anything. Extracted from the book “Records of Shaolin Temple” in Shaolin Temple, with the help of a friend.

[Tainan Mantis]

Lao Long,
Is "Records of Shaolin Temple" a book not available to the general public?

Would be historically significant to read. And I would like to get a hold of it.

As it is, Yijin Jing was first published in 1827.
Before this time there is no mention of Damo having taught anything at Shaolin temple.

That includes MA manuals as well as Buddhist scriptures.

The oldest known book from Shaolin, "Elucidation on Shaolin Stick, Spear an Saber" from 1616 credits their incredible stick fighting ability to the diety Jinnaluo.

Actually that was a mistake.
An older 1517 stele inscription credits Shaolin's stick fighting ability to Naluoyan.

The inscription as well as the book both tell the same story.
How the Red Turbans came to Shaolin and were chased away by an unknown kitchen worker.

The truth is that the Red Turbans chased away all the monks around 1356.

Surviving epitaphs from 1373 tell how the bandits destroyed the temple and smashed the statues looking for gold.

After the governments Northern offensive, led by Chaghan Temur, in 1359 were they able to return.

The oldest known book on empty hand fighting from Shaolin, "Chuen Jing-Chuen Fa Bei Yao" also makes no mention of animals fighting, Damo, Yijin Jing etc.

Although it goes into extensive details on Shaolin fighting(another thread a few months back)

Most of the above info comes from Meir Shahar and his book
"Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice"

Most of his references are the original books themselves as well as Tang Hao's well known research on Shaolin and MA in general.

[r.(shaolin)]

The the Shaolin wushu I practice
traces its lineage of martial arts back to Venerable Jue Yuan of Shaolin Monastery and Bai Yufeng. We place them in the late Yuan Dynasty and after Abbot Fuyu. There is no hard historical records of either Jue Yuan or Bai Yufeng. The version in the so called "Records of Shaolin Temple" comes from a verbal tradition and is in some details at odds and less detailed than the version of the story in my tradition. There are many things in the "Records of Shaolin Temple" that are clearly historically incorrect. Most of the actual historical information about Shaolin comes to us from the Ming and Qing Dynasties. With only the smallest of bits from the Tang, Song, Jin and Yuan.

All in all I would take "Records of Shaolin Temple" with a grain of salt.

r.

[Lao Long]

As it is, Yijin Jing was first published in 1827. Before this time there is no mention of Damo having taught anything at Shaolin temple. That includes MA manuals as well as Buddhist scriptures.

The practice of combining wushu and qigong continued down through the centuries, and by the time of the Ming (1368-1644) and Qing (1644-1911) dynasties a number of theoretical works were written about it. One of them was Yijinjing a widely - read book of the Ming Dynasty which expounded the theory of incorporating internal work (qigong) into (wushu) exercises of the Shaolin school.

From Martial Arts of China Vol. 1, No. 2 , Page 87
Courtesy of Shaolin Brand

Some said that Zongheng, a Taoist priest of Tiantai Mountain, wrote 'Yijinjing' in 1624, but to add mystery to it, he made up a story saying 'Yijinjing' was originally written by Damo.

An older 1517 stele inscription credits Shaolin's stick fighting ability to Naluoyan.

Nan Chao Bodhidharma Bei, stele. There were recorded by emperor Liang Wu Di, everything about Bodhidharma. This stele can be found in Kong Xian Si.

The Abbot Ji An Fa Shi, built the Bodhidharma pagoda at the Yuan Xiang era, during the reign of emperor Xiao Jing Di, [534-550 AD], of the Dong Wei Dynasty (Eastern Wei). It was situated south of the temple’s middle line, and was constructed after Bodhidharma’s death and had a lot of historic evidences about Bodhidharma's teachings.

This stele can be found in Kong Xian Si.

Ba Long Jing Du, was built at 1064, during the Song dynasty. It was built of limestone and at each side of its octagonal shape was written sutras and histories about Bodhidharma.

This stele can be found in Kong Xian Si.

Most of the above info comes from Meir Shahar and his book
"Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice"

Dr. Meir Shahar Department of East Asian Studies in Tel Aviv University, Israel is a well-known scientist.

Is "Records of Shaolin Temple" a book not available to the general public?

No, it is property of Shaolin temple and Deng Feng Goverment office of Henan province, China. As far as i know.

The teachings in The Chan Teaching of Bodhidharma
were delivered by Bodhidharma in person. The oldest known manuscripts of these sermons are dated from the seventh century copies among the hundreds of Tang dynasty Buddhist manuscripts found in China's Pingling Temple and
Tunhuang in present-day Kansu Province.

[r.(shaolin)]

Lao Long have you had a chance to check for the source of the info on Jue Yuan that "Records of Shaolin Temple" used?

r.

[beiquan]

Tainan,

The "Shaolinsi zhi" or "Records of Shaolin Temple" in 22 juan, written in 17th century by Ye Feng has been published by Bejing chubanshe:

Title: Shao lin si zhi :
22 juan /
Author(s): Ye, Feng,; 1623-1687. ; Shi, Yizan.
Publication: [Beijing] : Beijing chu ban she,
Year: 1997, ?
Description: [1 v.]
Language: Chinese (Show vernacular)
Series: Si ku wei shou shu ji kan.; Di 9 ji ;; 6;

Would you by any chance have the Chinese title of the "Elucidation on Shaolin Stick, Spear, and Saber" that you mentioned?

thx
bq

[r.(shaolin)]

"The oldest known book from Shaolin, "Elucidation on Shaolin Stick, Spear an Saber" from 1616 credits their incredible stick fighting ability to the diety Jinnaluo."
---------------

I think the oldest document on Shaolin wushu is "Shaolin gunfa chan zong" by Cheng Zongyou. It was apparently written in around 1610.

A compilation of a number of manuals which included spear, and broadsword along with staff methods was published in 1612 under the name,
"Geng Yu Sheng Ji" by Cheng Zongyou as well.

r.

Beiquan do you have any thoughts on Feng Ye’s sources for the Bai Yufeng story?

[GeneChing]

You know, I had a really interesting experience with five animal research on my last trip. Since I've been studying Xingyi lately, I've been more interested in animal styles. But for the longest time, I rejected the Songshan Shaolin five animal form since it looked so simplistic. I suppose that being under a BSL master who aslo taught Hung Gar, well, Hung five animal is pretty intense and the Shaolin version just didn't live up to that. But I decided that since I didn't have a lot of training time, Shaolin five animal would be a good one to learn. Well, my Shaolin master was away at the time so I took the advice of many of my other friends at Shaolin and they all looked at me funny. They know that I'm more traditionally oriented, and they asked why I wanted to learn something modern instead of traditional Shaolin! According to them, the five animals were really more of a southern thing, but since then, popular notion has transferred it back to Songshan, so Songshan five animals was created to fill the myth. Now, keep in mind that this is just hearsay, advice of some trusted locals, so I can't say for sure.

BTW, Lao Long, Dr. Shahar's "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" is not a book, it's an article that was published in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies. And here's a little tease for you all. I'm picking Dr. Shahar up from the airport next week.
:cool:

[Robert Young]

> According to them, the five animals were really more of a
> southern thing, but since then, popular notion has transferred
> it back to Songshan, so Songshan five animals was created to
> fill the myth.

Yes, only southern Shaolin systems practiced five animal forms. Northern Shaolin systems did not use five animal names. The only style from northern China I know is Xing-Yi that uses many animal's names. In the past, when people referred to SongShan shaolin styles, it meant northern Shaolin styles in general.

That's my 2 cents.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Gene

Gene wrote.
Songshan Shaolin five animal form since it looked so simplistic. . .

. . . According to them, the five animals were really more of a southern thing. . .
------
The Shaolin tradition that I practice includes Shaolin Wu Xing Quan as developed at Song Shan Shaolin by Jue Yuan Fang Chang and Chan master, Qiu Yue Chan Shi (aka. Bai Yufeng). Qiu Yue Chan Shi had a number of Lay Buddhist students and is considered the founding monk of our lay Shaolin lineage. It is an northern lineage which moved from the Loyang area to Beijing then to Shanghai in the early 1900's.
Wu Xing Quan as practiced by us includes 10 hand sets (single and dual) as well as two weapons sets. These forms are not simplistic and are based on animal imitation styles of the Sung dynasty practiced at Shaolin that predate these monk's arrival there. These Shaolin sets, like most advanced sets from Shaolin, incorporate wuxing (five elements) and bagua (eight tetragram).

I would point out that
Xingyiquan (the system) is believed to have its origins in Shanxi province from the early 1600s.
It’s early development is credited to Ji Jike (aka. Ji Longfeng), a martial artist who allegedly trained at the Shaolin Monastery in Henan province. Many common postures and terminology, such as ‘wu xing’ (five fist shapes) and’ ten animals shapes’ are common to both our lineage of Shaolin wushu and Xingyi
-----

Gene if you could possibly show the translation of
the stone Tang dynasty stele at Shaolin we did to Dr. Shahar and get his comments, I'll fax you a copy :-)

r.

ps. I'm not sure if I mentioned this to you, but the image you were so kind to send me, was missing the bottom two lines of characters. We were finally able to get them from Academica Sinica

[GeneChing]

I agree that there is historic evidence for five animals at Songshan Shaolin - I was just relating a recent experience. To be honest, it has me a bit confused. It makes me wonder if there's another five animals form at Songshan, other than this alledged modern wushu version. That would be expected for the way things work at Shaolin - show the tourists the wushu, save the traditional for the inner students. Unfortunately, my master wasn't there, so I wasn't as inner as I would have liked.

As for Dr. Shahar's opinion on the stele, funny you should ask, he did extensive work on the stele. Extensive. Steles are a speciality of his research. We discussed it when I met him at Shaolin and he believes that it is completely authentic, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Personally, that was very reassuring, since Dr. Shahar does have some more controversial theories about Shaolin. Have you read his paper yet? It's a must read for all serious Shaolin researchers. He was kind enough to send me his next paper, which is equally exciting and due to be published next year I beleive...

More on him to come. ;)

[r.(shaolin)]

"Steles are a speciality of his research.:

Is it possible for you to show him how we translated it. If you can send me your fax number I'll send it and the accompaning notes and bibliography.
I would love to get his feedback on it.


"Have you read his paper yet?"

Yes I have.

[Robert Young]

I'm very interested to see northern Shaolin style five animal forms. Northern Shaolin systems are very different from Southern Shaolin styles. It should be very easy to identify whether a form belongs to northern or southern styles. Is there some pictures for video clips that I can take a look on the internet?

I'm a Long Fist guy, but I have learned some Southern forms. My teacher was a southern Chinese and learned mostly southern styles before he started Long Fist. We practice some southern style animal forms too. The way to practice them, southern and northern style, are quite different in my experience. It will be an eye opening for me to see northern Shaolin animal forms.

[Lao Long]

Dear Gene

BTW, Lao Long, Dr. Shahar's "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" is not a book, it's an article that was published in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies.

I think this is something that Master Tainan Mantis wrote not me.

[GeneChing]

r.(s): I'd be happy to do so. Our fax number here is 510-656-8844. Make sure it's attnetion to me. I have a ton of things I want to discuss with him, but he'll be here for a while, so I will get around to your translation. You can't imagine how much I've been looking forward to his visit. The time we spent at Shaolin together was way too short and we have hundreds of things to discuss.

ll: Whoops! You're right. My bad. Or rather, Tainan Mantis's bad. :p

[lac]

interesting note,
according to jarek`s research at www.chinafrominside.com; The original xingyi from Ji long feng, probably the Henan`s xinyi liuhe/ 10 animal xingyi of the moslem hui people, didn`t have any wuxing quan. The five elements are only present in the theory like in other northen cma. It is the Dai family with their Dai Xinyi that first incorporated wuxing quan (probably form their own family system) into their xinyi. From the Dai`s, it went into li laoneng to become 12 animal xingyi as we know now.

[r.(shaolin)]

I doubt that “Dai Xinyi was first to use the term 'wuxing quan'.

It is believed that Xingyi Quan was developed in the 1600s.
The Honan Shaolin Monastery developed an art based on 10 animals/five fist shapes and used wuxing and bagua and the term 'wuxing quan' during the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368). This is according to our verbal tradition and supported by at least by one Qing Dynasty document.

I checked out jarek`s web site and found:

The text on "Memorial Tablet of Mister Che Yizhai", written in 1925 says:

"Martial arts are the unique skills of China and are divided into Shaolin, Internal and External Schools. These arts were flourishing in our prefecture during the reigns of emperors Xianfeng (1851-1861) and Tongzhi (1862-1874) (and were practiced by) disciples of Wang Changle and Dai Wenxiong. (Wang) Changle was from Jiao (i.e. Jiaocheng County). Mister Dai had a nickname Er Lü and was from Qi (County). Dai Family Xinyiquan, passed within Dai Clan, belongs to Shaolin External branch.... )"

It would appear that there are early xingyi practitionars who credit at least some shaolin influence on their art - even if it was only terms :-))))

r.

[lac]

thank you r shaolin.
so there is another version of xingyi origin. the history of a chinese martial art is really vague.
i think xingyi comes from shaolin art (the same with chen tai chi and bagua), although other might certainly said that it is a wutang art. and there`s another thing called external and internal.

The Dai family might not be the first to use the term wuxing quan, but their the first one who incorporated wuxing quan into their xingyi practice. Infact, again i must refer to jarek`s research with the Dais, they said that in the beginning, there were only 3 fists (the 3 old fists) before they expand it into wuxing quan.

[Ironmantis]

bodhitree:

From my research and practice of the art Hung Gar has the entire five animal form.

I have seen the five animal form in Shaolin Kung fu and it is the same as the Hung Gar set (128 postture form).

Look at the Hung Gar system. Y9u may have some questions answered there.

I.M.
Shaolin Kungfu

[David Jamieson]

How are the 5 animals fighting sets related to the five animals frolics of qigong? And aren't they for the most part different animals?

were they synthisized at Shaolin or elsewhere?

cheers

[GeneChing]

The Chinese love 5's - that's why they call their cigarettes 555 :p

The idea of connecting 5 animal frolics with 5 animals kung fu is really enticing, but personally it feels more like both systems are homages to the Chinese 5ophilia than one is to the other. It's like all the other examples of Chiense numerology - 18, 36, 72, 108 etc. - it's really hard to pin down the progenitor.

Actually, the correlation between early qigong systems and martial arts is a fascinating one, one that Dr. Shahar and I have been starting to discuss. Really, when you think about it, that is the break, the origin of CMA as we know it. Every culture has fighting systems, but CMA fused qigong elements and created taolu. This raises a really interesting question - when does taolu first appear?

[Ironmantis]

Hmmm .....

From what I understand, the 5 animal system (Hua To system) consists of Monkey, Tiger Bear, Dear, and Crane. These exercises devloped by the late physician Hua To (during the three kingdoms periods) were to awake, stimulate and move chi in the body (I learned them as the five animal dead, five animal live, and Chen Tien Chi exercises or the 59 Hua To animal play).

The Classic Five Animal form - Tiger, Crane, Dragon, Lepard and Snake are related to different systems or orhans of the body. But from what my Masters shared with me, the history of this form is a tribute to the 128 monks that died supporting rebels trying to overthrough the Qing Emporer.

Please let me know if my research is off here .....

Thanks my fellow MAs.

Iron-Mantis
Shaolin Warrior

[MasterKiller]

Gene. 18,36,72 and 108 all reduce to the number 9 in hebrew numerology, as does 666. They are divisible by 3, which is an important Chinese number.

From one comes two, from two comes three, from three comes ten thousand things--Tao Te Ching.

[GeneChing]

Well, you can go nuts with Chinese numerology. Remember this is the culture that developed the I Ching.

3 is a magic number (I learned that on Schoolhouse Rock) - 9 is the number of the emperor. You'll find patterns of 9 throughout any imperial possession, from the patterns in the emperor's clothes to the steps in the architecture of their palaces.

[yuanfen]

Gene-FWIW

Chinese and Indian numerology are inter-related and at a fairly early stage.

Indians also had classifications of 5...though instead of wood
and metal-there is wind and space for hindus(akash) and emptiness(sunya-zero) for buddhists. Panchabhutam are 5 elements
and panchakarma are the five ayurvedic healing routines.

And 0,3,9, 18, 36, 108 etc are important in Indian history,
astronomy and organization schemes. Classical Bharat Natyam dancing has 108 key forms.
108 key strike points(marmas). The full buddhist beaded necklace has 108 bead- stations for meditation.

Chan, Zen and Dhyan are equivalent and in Pali its zhan.


The zigzagginng relationships between buddhism and taoism accoubts for some of the differences in details.

joy chaudhuri

[richard sloan]

...are all over the place in Shaolin forms too...

Lohan Duan Da ends with something like Five Flowers Sit on the Mountain, the five flowers stand for the head, the hands, and the feet...

and you see a lot of series of fives elsewhere, like in Tong beiquan, the five kicks...I forget the name of the series...

[N5Animals]

[QUOTE=GeneChing;381168]The Chinese love 5's - that's why they call their cigarettes 555 :p

QUOTE]

As I could remember, 555 is a cigarrette brand from UK>

[GeneChing]

Nevertheless, 555 cigs are hugely popular in China which I'll still attribute to the penchant for 5s in Chinese numerology.

To quote wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Express_555)

Today, the brand is still very popular in Asia, especially in the Greater China area (including mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan), The Philippines, Vietnam, and Cambodia. Some resources suggest it is the most well-known and popular foreign brand in China

[N5Animals]

You know, I had a really interesting experience with five animal research on my last trip. Since I've been studying Xingyi lately, I've been more interested in animal styles. But for the longest time, I rejected the Songshan Shaolin five animal form since it looked so simplistic. I suppose that being under a BSL master who aslo taught Hung Gar, well, Hung five animal is pretty intense and the Shaolin version just didn't live up to that. But I decided that since I didn't have a lot of training time, Shaolin five animal would be a good one to learn. Well, my Shaolin master was away at the time so I took the advice of many of my other friends at Shaolin and they all looked at me funny. They know that I'm more traditionally oriented, and they asked why I wanted to learn something modern instead of traditional Shaolin! According to them, the five animals were really more of a southern thing, but since then, popular notion has transferred it back to Songshan, so Songshan five animals was created to fill the myth. Now, keep in mind that this is just hearsay, advice of some trusted locals, so I can't say for sure.

BTW, Lao Long, Dr. Shahar's "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" is not a book, it's an article that was published in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies. And here's a little tease for you all. I'm picking Dr. Shahar up from the airport next week.
:cool:

I totally understand you. Songshan shaolin 5 animals were created in recent years and they are pieces of crap. 5 animals are most common to be found in southern styles. That does not mean the original 5 animals are not from norhtern shaolin.

It is believed that 5 animals set was created by Bai Yufeng and Monk JueYuan in later Yuan or early Ming dynasty.But according to my master, it is not real. The set was more likely created in later Ming Dynasty.

For what I am learning, our northern five animals set include 5 forms: tiger, snake, leopard, dragon and crane. 176 stances or movements in total. It is a very complicated set, including many similar skills or stances from XingYi, Bagua,Taichi, Pigua and Praying Mantis. It also includs lots of qi-kung or so called internal practices. It is absolutely different to southern 5 animals,nothing same at all. For example, the most popular leopard strike or leopard fist in southern style does not exist in northern 5 animals. Northern 5 animals set is completely an empty hand form, nothing for acrobatic performances or postures to imitate animals. It imitates animals internally, as an example, leopard set is a fast, powerful form set, not becasue it looks like leopard's movement. There is not a singal stance was named after leopard, on the contrary, lots of stances were named after eagle, cat, snake,horse or other animals. It sounds weird but it is absolutely the best form I ever know . So far, few masters are still practicing and teaching this set, and none was from Songshan.

[mrshungkuen]

I practise south system of Hung Gar there we have a form which is called Ng Ying Kuen or Ng Yin Kuen.

Meaning 5 animal fist it includes: tiger, leopard, crane, snake and dragon. Also there seem to be a kungfu system totally focused on 5 animal kungfu called, Ng Ying Kungfu.

But also saw 3 animal styles and others. Difficult to find a true lineage i guess

[GeneChing]

I practise south system of Hung Gar there we have a form which is called Ng Ying Kuen or Ng Yin Kuen.
You'll find a lot more on Hung Gar and their 5 animals on Southern Chinese subforum (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?8-Southern-Chinese-Kung-Fu).:cool: