Static and Dynamic structure

[Phenix]

There are discussion on forward pressure, absorbing, structure, mind/body/breathing link......



IMHO, there are two class of structure:
The static and dynamic.

Care to share and discuss?

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
There are discussion on forward pressure, absorbing, structure, mind/body/breathing link......



IMHO, there are two class of structure:
The static and dynamic.

Care to share and discuss?

Hmmm.... can there ever really be static structure???

Sometimes what we think, or the mental models we use to describe and understand things don't perfectly match reality.

Regards,
- kj

[S.Teebas]

Hi Phenix,

I think the dynamic one is better becasue it can change as the circumstances change. Its more adaptable and flexable.

Static reminds me of structure using tension and shapes as its basis. A shape may seem correct from the outside. But if you could see the inside, you would see there exists tension and limited ability to move with true freedom.

[joy chaudhuri]

A hard line between statics and dynamics has become fuzzier in many fields.

In wing chun I dont think of the ygkym as being static-relative to
a dead structure as in horse stances of some other styles.
YGKYM has its bone and joint relationships and it's "springiness"-
then with chum kiu and footwork becomes even more dynamic.

And at higher levels of wing chun-the dynamics becomes more subtle because one learns the best appropriate structure for
each occasion with experience.

[Phenix]

Hi All,

Now you might know why I bring up the Rainbow body.
When nothing is permanent and every changing what is static?
is passing a structure test really passed to have a good structure?

Appology if others mis-understood me. The topic of meridiean activation, breathing with Gay Hendric, third hand, Rainbow body and now the static and dynamics... are my evil doing :D to try to link everything into one holistic pice..... the big picture is what I am after.

The basic technics, the structure... each of them represent and era. now, may be we want to enter an era of mind, so one can handle the mind/breathing/body/technics... thus the evolution will continous on after keys basic building stone being disscuss.

Who is right who is wrong? who is who? everything is impermanent. the saga of WCK continous on...... everyone is improving.... :D

By the end of the century, it is no longer an art from a trop of opera actors. (no actress since as it says " if female play female is that still acting? :D, strange logic indeed) it will become an art with multi field: philosophy, body mechanics, mind training, artistic..... Well, I might be nuts. But think about when WCK is so vast and so sophisticated even it appear as elegant and simple.:D

[yylee]

ha ha, since you like to quote Mr Wang. Let me quote him again (base on memory).

a static post is made possible by a "Sung Sung Butt Yee" stream of dynamic movements.

in plain English this means - being static is a result of continous movements in a fine, and dynamic fashion.

derivatives and integration. Forgot it all..... :D



BTW, hammer and nail is on page 76 ;)

[Ernie]

static = dead= slave to any shape form or body position that has to be this way or that way , meaning you are trapped by the structure as you need to crystalize a moment in time to achieve it . instead of being free to express the concept behind the structure .

dynamic = adaptable and ever changing , meaning you don't need to make the tan , but you express the tan , it's idea is felt . it could be done with a arm or a leg or a pole or a chair what ever .

if you need to stand a certian way , or hold your arm a certian way then you are partially dead , freedom has not been found

in the end it's an expression of your mind and body and personality.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee
ha ha, since you like to quote Mr Wang. Let me quote him again (base on memory).

a static post is made possible by a "Sung Sung Butt Yee" stream of dynamic movements.

in plain English this means - being static is a result of continous movements in a fine, and dynamic fashion.

derivatives and integration. Forgot it all..... :D



BTW, hammer and nail is on page 76 ;)

So, is page 76, they copy us or we copy them? :D
How about Cheng Man-Ching's 13 Chapter --- tringle within Circle...


so are you going to teach your friend to stand in this way and that way to make a perfect structure after reading Wang? hahahah


Well, one way to do perfect structure. Stop breathing . :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


So, is page 76, they copy us or we copy them? :D
How about Cheng Man-Ching's 13 Chapter --- tringle within Circle...


just because we Chinese came up with the idea of Yin/Yang does not mean the guy who invented computer copied from us. ;)

my impression towards YiKuen's hammer/nail is still different from WC's putting the body mass behind the punch....

Cheng's book could be hard to find these days.



so are you going to teach your friend to stand in this way and that way to make a perfect structure after reading Wang? hahahah

Well, one way to do perfect structure. Stop breathing . :D

haha, let them freeze there and get hit... what are friends for? right?

[yuanfen]

yylee- regarding Chinese coming up with yin-yang. Wait a minute.
The terms are Chinese- but the concepts are more widespread.
In India- Shiva-Parvati, shakta/shakti and even in some American Indian/Native American societies- male/female balancing in nature-
sun.moon, earth/wind etc.

joy

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
yylee- regarding Chinese coming up with yin-yang. Wait a minute.
The terms are Chinese- but the concepts are more widespread.
In India- Shiva-Parvati, shakta/shakti and even in some American Indian/Native American societies- male/female balancing in nature-
sun.moon, earth/wind etc.

joy

ah, good one! thanks for the correction. Guess it should be "the BaGua signs and the binary system for computers". Heard some comments claiming the Chinese came up with "an" early form of binary coding system, so modern scientists must be copying.....

And I know India invented "zero" (oh I mean the numeric zero) :)

[PaulH]

The most ancient record on the Yin Yang concept can even be found in the biblical book of Genesis where God took a part of man's flesh and created wo-man to be his helpmate. Clearly Man is a social being and is not created to be alone. When they are husband and wife, "the two become one flesh." Complementary, separate but of a whole.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H- I dont want to go too far into comparative theology-
but the Adam/Eve analogy does not exactly match the yin/yang.

Adam helps set up a patriarchal tradition.

yylee- yes- the zero!

Roman numerals wont do!!

Even the modern numbers are Indian in origin--- mistaknly called Arabic. Arab mathematicians used to call them Hindu numbers.

Zero provides the constency and reliability of numeric operations.
Peano the Italian logician didnt specify the logical importance of zero for numbers till over 500 years past BC... many many hundreds of years after the Indians.

[yylee]

and I heard the Myan's used base-20 arithematic.

I also heard (if memory serves) the Summerian's used base-60!

guess that works well with their calendar systems.


I have enough trouble using hexadecimal :(



Anyway, what's the scoop on the dynamically static structure or the statically dynamic topic we are after? Everybody's still holding their breathe? :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee




Anyway, what's the scoop on the dynamically static structure or the statically dynamic topic we are after? Everybody's still holding their breathe? :D

be honest, how many holding breath or stop breathing while doing SLT to make tan, yjkym more perfect?:(

[yuanfen]

Stop breathing in SLT?

What's the world coming to?

Chicken Little was right!!!

[yylee]

not me!

[PaulH]

Joy,

I hope you find this note of dissent agreeable! Ha! Ha! The main idea of the Yin and Yang concept is that of seeking a harmonious life of complementary interaction of male and female, or the powers from above (Heaven, rain, sun) and those from below (Earth, soil fertility). The passive yields to the agressive but by yielding, absorbs and overcomes. Yang is above, male, light, warm and agressive; yin is below, female, dark, cold, and passive. All of these elements are found and harmonized beautifully in the Adam and Eve analogy. Patriarchial concept, on the other hand, was a universal phenomenon in the ancient days. I find trace of this even in the Chinese Yin/Yang concept above .

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H- I have zero problems with civil disagreements. I learn from my disgreements and have spent a good part of my life dealing with dialectics and dissent.(and understanding self defense)


Even in wing chun no two person's wing chun is the same and one has to deal with that as well.

There is no intrinsic patriarchy in yin/yang.Look at the yin/yang symbols. Equal in proprtions.But when you add other elements- including Confucianism you get gender hierarchy and age hierarchy. These contradictions are sometimes held by the same person when they are non reflective.
In India patriarchy came with the so called Aryans and later codified with caste in the Code of Manu.
No patriarchy in the Advaita vedanta or in Kundalini Yoga.The symbol of Kali standing on Shiva's chest- no patriarchy there-
pre Aryan symbolism.
Then with the coming of Sakyamuni- no patriarchy. Sunyata.
Yes in the west the concept of harmony is there too -but its not always the harmony of equals. Eve came from Adam's rib... and then one gets all the male who begat what and whom.
The Stoics logically were gender free and gave us the foundation of gender free rights-the Stoic symbol of justice became the transformation of another symbol into the blindfolded female
with scales and a sword. blindfolded she does not "see" gender or race.
Adam/Eve, male/female in Augustine or Thomas. in Luther or Calvin- harmony yes- but not among equals in power.
In the Muscogee Creek tribal world before Coumbus there was the complementary equality in male and female in power and ritual and medicine.. You have to read my book coauthored with my late wife: "A Sacred Path-the Way of the Muscogee Creeks"

In wing chun I fear the yin palm or the yang palm! The tan or the bong.

joy c.

Enough...

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen

No patriarchy in the Advaita vedanta or in Kundalini Yoga.The symbol of Kali standing on Shiva's chest- no patriarchy there-
pre Aryan symbolism.
Then with the coming of Sakyamuni- no patriarchy. Sunyata...




Joy, Pual,


Then with the coming of Hendrix -- By who's standard mantra.
That is the matra to break ego of oneself if one keeps asking oneself when one get ****ed of that other doesn't totally following one's way or tribal rule!. :D

[PaulH]

Thanks, Joy. That is a very interesting and thoughtful discussion on equality. While the notion is appealing, I believe this more by experience:
"True education makes for inequality; the inequality of individuality, the inequality of success, the glorious inequality of talent, of genius; for inequality, not mediocrity, individual superiority, not standardization, is the measure of the progress of the world - Felix E. Schelling"


Hey Hendrix, let me know if you ever get close to that goal. I doubt Lao Tzu who spouted this idea ever overcame his self ego. Bruce Lee wisely observed that for a man who detested the futility of words, he was quite wordy in his Tao T Ching.

Regards,

[Tom Kagan]

... There is no intrinsic patriarchy in yin/yang.Look at the yin/yang symbols. Equal in proprtions ...

I agree the "yin-yang" symbol is looked upon that way today. However, my understanding of the Dao is that not only was all "yin" dominant over "yang," but the "yin-yang" symbol was actually wholy feminine: The "yang" must learn to take the feminine powers into oneself in order to gain wisdom and health. The reverse - "yin" taking the masculine into oneself in order to gain the "yang" attributes - and subsequent balancing of the yin-yang symbol, I believe, is a much more recent interpretation.

One of the reasons why I chose to learn how to "fight like a lady" is because of this. The potential wrath behind a mother's efforts to protect and nurture her young (and the reason to release it) outshines, by far, anything I could find in my "yang" head. :)

[reneritchie]

The potential wrath behind a mother's efforts to protect and nurture her young (and the reason to release it) outshines, by far, anything I could find in my "yang" head.

To get her with young to protect and nurture. Jeesh, c'mon Tom, watch Discovery some time. Gotta put on the agro displays to secure territory and mate(s)....

[AndrewS]

Hey Ernie,

I've got to chime in on this one. You're reacting and I think overlooking a useful and interesting distinction of two ends of a continuim.

>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ernie
[B]static = dead= slave to any shape form or body position that has to be this way or that way , meaning you are trapped by the structure as you need to crystalize a moment in time to achieve it . instead of being free to express the concept behind the structure .

Static- structure frozen at a point in time, in relation to a force frozen at a point in time. This is the TST bong sao demo that so irks you. A force comes in, you like up a path to put it in the ground, back into the other person, etc. using as much force as you need to hold your joint angles. This can be done with little force (i.e. Chen Man Ching's taiji idea) or a whole lot (Okinawan sanchin done with dynamic tension, locking the whole body together). That wall you ran into which was up on the balls of his feet was demonstrating what I would think of as static structure.

Static structure doesn't have to be developed statically (i.e. long SNT or standing). Ba Gua guys can have good static structure from primarily moving training, and I train with one escrima guy who's never held a position in his life and is a freakin' rock.


>dynamic = adaptable and ever changing , meaning you don't need to make the tan , but you express the tan , it's idea is felt . it could be done with a arm or a leg or a pole or a chair what ever .

Dynamic structure- expressing that frozen thing described in time, in relation to changing force. Force may be chaging 'cos it moves or 'cos you mover. Either way it's changing. Part of this is the ability to keep your feet in a mosh pit, spin off a tackle, sprawl a shoot- this is dynamic balance and fluidiity, but it's not the whole thing. Expressing that ability to link up your body while doing this is the dynamic thing.

From a fighting perspective- dynamic structure is ability to mow someone down with mass, momentum, and ground, the ability to move around someone with pressure while being able to take incoming force and shunt it off elsewhere without being off-balanced. Static structure is the ability to hold your ground and be a rock on which a wave breaks, and I think is part of what you can use to slow down someone fast once you have contact- linking your structure into their's to control them.

To me both of these thing are extremes used for training and ways of looking at things. Each contains a bit of the other when you move from the hypothetical to the applied.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Wanna get a workout in this weekend?

P.P.S. Hendrick- did I pass?

[Ernie]

andrew
sat. is looking good i'm open untill around 5

as for the whole static and dynamic thing
i find when people get introduced to theo whole structure concept the get a ense of power all of a sudden [ like stewart on mad tv '' look what i can do'' ]]
this develops bad habits , or crutches , in other words they become dependent on this struicture or that shape , they seek it in combat , stead of acually being free to adapt and change .

that's why you see so many people have trouble with '' lack of touch or covering ground in wing chun '' the tend to reach out or over commit to achieve a contact point but by doing this they end up behind a persons timing or if there is a elevation change they get lost all together .

it is far more efficent to just develop the sesitivity '' eye and touch '' to read the empty line and fire there then to capture the on coming force and then try and minipulate it .
even though you might be useing structural force , it is still force on force and not reall a effeicient way of dealing with the situation,
you are basicaly gambling on the fact that you will create a point of contact and you will control the point of contact . again both these ideas are passive ,
thus time is lost , trying to capture the moment with a static shape vs. just flowing through and adapting with a live feel.

any time you have to assume a position to be effective you are then trapped by the need of said position

that's why so many look like robots , that come crashing in with static shapes and stances .

just how i see it everything should be natural and only use that which the situation calls for no more no less .

[Tom Kagan]

To get her with young to protect and nurture. Jeesh, c'mon Tom, watch Discovery some time. Gotta put on the agro displays to secure territory and mate(s)....

I cannot speak for everyone. But I didn't need to fight to achieve it. ;)

In my humble opinion, the "monkey dance" of the "yang" is downright bush-league when compared to the depths of treachery and cunning lurking within the "yin."

[reneritchie]

Tom is correct.

[PaulH]

Being young and foolish contrary to the yin wisdom of the day, I like the Yang way better. I like to die shooting. This way at least I'm more proactive at achieving the victory:

Victory is always possible for the person who refuses to stop fighting. - Napoleon Hill

In life, as in chess, forethought wins. - Charles Buxton

Politically disagreeable,

[kj]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
In my humble opinion, the "monkey dance" of the "yang" is downright bush-league when compared to the depths of treachery and cunning lurking within the "yin."

Heh heh he. Very astute. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

Tom and forum-

The importance of the female principle is unquestioned- but the ultimate balance is the conceptual key.

In Indian thought (lots of ancient historical interaction between
India and China as well as independent developments)-
in tantrik perspectives the female principle is primary and then
is balanced in the gender action. Shakti (female)is sheer power.
Shakta provides the vehicle and the blending. The old symbols of strength were and are female despite Brahminic attempts to put their own ritual overlay and suppress it..
For many old martial arts groups civil and covert(thugees) the powerful Kali(Shakti) was the inspirer. For some Kali's transformation- the godess Durga. Durga and Kali are important in the martial Gurkha world as well.
Kali has a garland of cut off male skulls/heads- the cutting of the male ego. Kali becomes Tara in Tibetan buddhism.
Kali's reprentative flower is the red hibiscus- sometimes called the Chinese rose!!

The female principle and the female symbolism (Ng Mui) is part of what attracted me to wing chun- and I knew (havent been disappointed) that the deeper you go you become aware of the frighteningly explosive power without wasted tension that is there in wing chun.
But it takes a while to understand it.

[yuanfen]

The Female of the Species(Rudyard Kipling-usually macho)1911
When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can.
But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away;
But when hunter meets with husband, each confirms the other's tale --
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man, a bear in most relations-worm and savage otherwise, --
Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise.
Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
Mirth obscene diverts his anger --- Doubt and Pity oft perplex
Him in dealing with an issue -- to the scandal of The Sex!

But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity -- must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions -- not in these her honour dwells.
She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

She is wedded to convictions -- in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies! --
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

Unprovoked and awful charges -- even so the she-bear fights,
Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons -- even so the cobra bites,
Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
And the victim writhes in anguish -- like the Jesuit with the squaw!

So it cames that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice -- which no woman understands.

And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
Must command but may not govern -- shall enthral but not enslave him.
And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.

[PaulH]

In defense of poor Kipling, the word is not "macho" but diplomatic. I can identify with this phenomenon. In my parents' home, Dad is said in theory "The king of the castle", but as befitting my station as my mother's favorite son, I always whisper to her "You rule" in practice.

A diplomat is a man who always remembers a woman's birthday but never remembers her age. - Robert Lee Frost

This one is for you, Mom! Ha! Ha!

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
The Female of the Species(Rudyard Kipling-usually macho)1911
.
.
.
And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.


I had not seen this work before; it's perfect. :D

Thanks!
- kj

[[Censored]]

I doubt Lao Tzu who spouted this idea ever overcame his self ego. Bruce Lee wisely observed that for a man who detested the futility of words, he was quite wordy in his Tao T Ching.

I agree the "yin-yang" symbol is looked upon that way today. However, my understanding of the Dao is that not only was all "yin" dominant over "yang," but the "yin-yang" symbol was actually wholy feminine: The "yang" must learn to take the feminine powers into oneself in order to gain wisdom and health. The reverse - "yin" taking the masculine into oneself in order to gain the "yang" attributes - and subsequent balancing of the yin-yang symbol, I believe, is a much more recent interpretation.

Know your audience, and communicate in a language they can understand and appreciate.

Visit a women's only Wing Chun class. How much time is spent lecturing on the importance of femininity? That's what you call preaching to the choir.

Lao Tzu was a man. Da Mo was a man. Shakyamuni was a man. Etc. Hope this explains the "recent interpretation."

[foolinthedeck]

you cant just say that numbers are indian. what is indian? define it, its a collection of peoples and ideas which have evolved. i always thought numbers were from babylon but that too is just a construct, so it doesnt matter anyway..

as for static and dynamic.
water is always dynamic, never static, even when stagnant it is not still. but the molecules are forever water and thus static until chemical change occurs?

[yuanfen]

foolinthe deck sez:

you cant just say that numbers are indian. what is indian?
----------------------------------
Wait a second I was talking about what we now mistakenly call Arabic numerals...O,1,2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9. 10.
Not greek, roman ir chinese numbers.
The greeks were good in geometry. Indians in algebra. You cant do algebra with Roman numerals. Zero(sunya) treats the other nambers as arising from it- variables.
All societies had counting schemes- some quite elaborate, But zero has an elegance of its own. Zero is in the Vedas and the sutras.
TheChinese abacus was and remains a remarkable invention as well.

Early greeks began to use the term Indian because of the Indus river system and its tributaries and beyond. Culturally historically the residents of Aryabharata, Bharata, Mahabharata. Culturally the mahabharata and Rmayana epics played and were known from
Kashmir to Sr Lanka- from Gujrat to Banga-Assam. Politically first united in the Maurya dynasty around 320 BC.
The Brit period (company rule 1775- 1857-the Mutiny.. and crown rule 1857-1947) is a very small part of Indian history.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks joy!
i like u alot

[Phenix]

always great to have Joy around!