Calling all CMA peeps!

[red5angel]

Ok, not sure how to express what I want to say or discuss here so hopefully this will kick it off.
I've been doing some thinking about the differences between hard and soft and the differences. Particularly there appear to me to be some attributes that are pretty exclusive, but not totally so, in the CMA.
My first thought is that the CMA are essentially designed to be very precise. What I mean is, it seems to me that more often then not, strikes in CMA are designed to hit very specific areas. Most of the time they seem to recquire a certain alignment of limbs and phalanges (sp?) that point towards a need to hit a very specific target.
Now part of why I am led to believe this is because of the poor performance of CMA in sport fighting as of late. My belief is that most and I mean about 99% don't train as hard as they should be training. It takes a lot more then an hour or two a day to be that precise in an environment (combat) that is so chaotic.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by red5angel
[B My belief is that most and I mean about 99% don't train as hard as they should be training. It takes a lot more then an hour or two a day to be that precise in an environment (combat) that is so chaotic. [/B]

No argument from me there.
OTOH, I think also a lot has to do with how the CMA are being trained/taught today.

In order to be precise you need to fulfill a lot of requirments.

Cheers.

[red5angel]

I think a big part of it is not only training but time. People don't want to put in the time to train properly and deeply. That 99% is what one might call "hobbyist".
I'm not making a judgment on anyones priorities I am just saying that most people don't have "it" because they don't train like maybe the CMA requires you train.

[David Jamieson]

I don't agree with the idea of precision striking being the absolute rule. one could say that about any martial art, even grappling IE:if you don't get the lock exactly, it will not hold and your opponent will break out.

Kungfu at specific levels deals with targeting points, striking specific areas, but overall a punch can target a wide area as can a kick a knee, an elbow, etc etc.

As one gets better at anything they will naturally get more precision, power and speed to apply to what it is they are doing.

cheers

[Laughing Cow]

R5A.

Again no disagreement, said that I have seen a lot of CMA that "wasted" their training time by not giving it all that they could.

Like you said I think it has a lot to do with priorities.

How many people would quit their comfy well-paying deskjob to work as a night-guard and live in a "shack" so that they could train more with their instructors, etc.

I belong into those 99%, CMA for me is a hobby, stress-reliever and get-fit plan rolled into one.
:D

[red5angel]

kung lek, of course it goes for "any" art but I think it is called upon more so then in others.

[David Jamieson]

red5-

Kungfu, or rather Chinese martial arts have been around for a long time and have developed into an amazing range of associated skills.

so much so that it is said 'to acquire all the knowledge of Shaolin Martial arts it would take you 3 lifetimes'. In other words, you will never know everything there is to know about it no matter who you are or what level you are at.

So, with such a tremendous body of knowledge that is essentially inexhaustable, then yes, there will be a large body of material taht requires great precision. Of course this is not focussed upon with novices for a variety of reasons and is approached when the student is ready, generally at an advanced level.

Some systems are very basic and do not contain a large body of material. But what material is there can still be highly effective comnbatively speaking. Ergo, don't sell short the guy who knows one or two moves because he's trained that one or two moves thousands of more times than you have trained your hundreds of moves.

I personally find it a good thing that cma does have such a huge library of techniques to build upon! You never run out of something new to learn as you keep training.

cheers

[red5angel]

In my experience in the CMA so far, I have come to find that even at the most basic levels, it still seems to demand a certain amount of precision for it to be used properly. The internal arts are an extreme but good example of this sort of thing. It seems to get even more precise as you get more advanced and it comes down to having to do thousands of hours of training to pull it off, in my opinion.

[norther practitioner]

even at the most basic levels, it still seems to demand a certain amount of precision for it to be used properly.

Hence part of the whole "deadly" thing as well....

I think if you got alignment early, the rest is all details....

What I'm saying is, in forms, you might associate a strike with a target, but once you get past that, when you can "use it" it doesn't always come down to targets etc... it is this tech. to a target, not this tech. meant for this target.

[red5angel]

you broached a subject NP I know is going to get a bad response but I believe that the chinese arts, in general focus a lot on so called "deadly" techniques. OF course any good fighting art does and there are others out there, kali for instance that are good for it as well.

[ShaolinTiger00]

even grappling IE:if you don't get the lock exactly, it will not hold and your opponent will break out.

Hate to disrupt the conversation but I just wanted to clarify something..

KL, That is exactly why you must obtain a dominant position over your opponent before you attempt a submission hold or choke. Because as you stated, opponents are going to be fighting & resisting you! and they will escape. . (happens all the time when practicing with other skilled grapplers)But your position allows you to re-attempt or transtion to another technique knowing that he is at a disadvantage and cannot attack you..


please continue .

[norther practitioner]

LOL...
R5A...
One thing that I like to say is this, in my long fist, the deadly strikes are the big ones, the big power shots, the big kicks, etc...
I put big kicks in for a reason two fold... If you miss a big kick, there is a good chance that you're going down, if you land one, well, good for you... Thats why when I'm practicing spinning kicks or jump kicks... I think of it as, ****, if I have the opportunity to use this, there is a chance I shouldn't be fighting this person any more (either they are staggering or something, or they suck so bad it is not even funny).

[David Jamieson]

But your position allows you to re-attempt or transtion to another technique knowing that he is at a disadvantage and cannot attack you..

I agree. Dominant position, or 'position of strength' vs 'position of weakness' as I learned it is many things, from three points to keeping your elbows in to hundreds of other variables , but nevertheless principle based.

to physically apply a principle, that is to say a known truth, requires the know how and the precision training to do it. Regardless of you martial art path.

cheers

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
it still seems to demand a certain amount of precision for it to be used properly. The internal arts are an extreme but good example of this sort of thing.

In my experience the very opposite is true; and dramatically so. What's the basis for your statement?

[Shaolin-Do]

IE: Pressure point strikes and pressure point strike sequences in TJQ... Its extremely difficult to hit pressure points, let alone a whole set sequence on a resisting person....

I train my big hits more as well... The big punches right now are much more likely to land and get the effect I was going for....

[fa_jing]

Once you assimilate your knowledge, you start to look for the shortcut, the simplification. But you're better off with a firm, wide basis in your art before you do this. Your martial development will be a process with a lot of tinkering, as well as almost un-conscious development - the benefit of sticking with it for a long period of time.

[Shaolin-Do]

Things just start to flow and fall into place much nicer the longer you study....

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
IE: Pressure point strikes and pressure point strike sequences in TJQ... Its extremely difficult to hit pressure points, let alone a whole set sequence on a resisting person....

Where did you get the impression that such a thing is characteristic of taijiquan?

[norther practitioner]

In our taiji classes, our aps are just that.. aps...
We'll practice a punch, a push, a throw, a break, etc.... Not a punch or palm to here or there... some are noticibly high or low, but thats about the extent of it...

[ZIM]

CM- it sounds like a lot of Earle Montaigne malarky.


Some systems are very basic and do not contain a large body of material. But what material is there can still be highly effective comnbatively speaking. Ergo, don't sell short the guy who knows one or two moves because he's trained that one or two moves thousands of more times than you have trained your hundreds of moves. KL- In boxing, for example, you've got guys that have decent skills, but 'a killer right' or they say 'watch out for that hook!' It's the same for CMAs- to develop even one technique to the level that you can always rely on it is a good thing and a good goal. :)

WRT precision- yes and no. You can approach the arts like that, even any art- Aikido for instance- doesn't have srtikes, but you must be precise. Thing is, you can get caught up in that and become ineffective. I choose to view the entire opponent as a target, just with certain points being more vulnerable than others. I don't seek points, I take them as they present themselves or as i uncover them. Which includes a wide variety of tactics to do- levers/fulcrums, expanding towards them in a rolling kind of way, small and large movements, sensitivity, etc.

oh nutz. KL and fa_jing said that. :( "Dominent position". Gotta read more closely. ;)

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ZIM
it sounds like a lot of Earle Montaigne malarky.

Well... Mr. Montaigue notwithstanding, pressure point striking, and essentially every other specialized gong (eg. iron body gongs, light body gong), are characteristic of the external family, not the internal. It may be enlightening to read in Feng Zhiquiang's (one of the most famous contemporary taiji practitioners) biography that it was his tongbei instructor who knew pressure points, not Chen Fake (perhaps the most famous name in recent taiji history; who was Mr. Feng's main taiji teacher).

Also, of course, taijiquan's famous practice method is pushing hands, a forum for exploring posture, position, and balance; and not something for exploring rapid, accurate sequences of precisely targetted striking.

People who haven't studied them really have some strange ideas about the internal family!

[truewrestler]

I'm very confused as to the point of this thread but that's probably because I'm not on of the CMA peeps :)


Now part of why I am led to believe this is because of the poor performance of CMA in sport fighting as of late. My belief is that most and I mean about 99% don't train as hard as they should be training. It takes a lot more then an hour or two a day to be that precise in an environment (combat) that is so chaotic. Maybe the CMA person needs to train just as hard as any one else competing in sport fighting. Why is it that successful Kung-Fu in the ring or cage (kickboxing or MMA) looks very similar to every other sports in the ring including stance, punches, kicks, etc? I believe it is because they all conform to what is best for fighting.

[MasterKiller]

Why is it that successful Kung-Fu in the ring or cage (kickboxing or MMA) looks very similar to every other sports in the ring including stance, punches, kicks, etc? Because sport-rules limitations take away about 80% of all kung fu strikes and techniques, which makesgood Kung Fu styles look like every other ring-sport style.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I believe it is because they all conform to what is easiest for fighting.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

..... that's not a slam either tw. this includes my kwoon where the first things we learn are boxing and muitai strikes.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Because sport-rules limitations take away about 80% of all kung fu strikes and techniques, which makesgood Kung Fu styles look like every other ring-sport style. MK, do you think that sport fighting makes someone a better fighter in general because they can use the legal techniques full force against a resisting opponent?

GDA, that is a great point and your kwoon sounds very good. Why do you think this is not more common in other kwoons? It sounds like they try to give you a "fighting" base to start with

[red5angel]

In my experience the very opposite is true; and dramatically so. What's the basis for your statement?

Chris M, In my experience a good portion of CMA striking internal or external is built around the idea of pressure points, nerve bundles, etc... However your claim that it is more an external property then an internal leaves me to believe you have been mislead.

truewrestler, without getting into a retarded sport vs combat, kungfu vs mma argument I am going to say that anyone who wants to be good at anything needs to train hard, like one who is training for competition, even if you aren't.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by red5angel
truewrestler, without getting into a retarded sport vs combat, kungfu vs mma argument I am going to say that anyone who wants to be good at anything needs to train hard, like one who is training for competition, even if you aren't. red5angel, how do you train the techniques in Kung-Fu hard if they will permenantly maim your training partner? Do most kwoons spar extensively under San Shou, Muay Thai or even MMA rules... or is that not very common??

I get the feeling sometime that certain styles rely on techniques that they can't train "HARD" so they can't possibly be good enough at them as they could with techniques that are letter "lethal" or maiming.

Thanks for any incite!

[MasterKiller]

MK, do you think that sport fighting makes someone a better fighter in general because they can use the legal techniques full force against a resisting opponent?

No. I'm sure there are plenty of sport-fighters who get their @sses handed to them on a regular basis.

The only difference I would say is that more people take martial arts for non-martial reasons, which dilutes the talent pool, so to speak.

Thanks for any incite!
Incite or insight? Red5 can give you both. :D

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Originally posted by Truewrestler

MK, do you think that sport fighting makes someone a better fighter in general because they can use the legal techniques full force against a resisting opponent?No. I'm sure there are plenty of sport-fighters who get their @sses handed to them on a regular basis.

The only difference I would say is that more people take martial arts for non-martial reasons, which dilutes the talent pool, so to speak. Wow... I completely disagree with you but at least I know where you stand on the issue.

[red5angel]

red5angel, how do you train the techniques in Kung-Fu hard if they will permenantly maim your training partner? Do most kwoons spar extensively under San Shou, Muay Thai or even MMA rules... or is that not very common??

this discussion has been sort of popular on this forum as of late. While in any art there are techniques that you can train "hard" most sportive arts are much more aligned towards training harder, because the goal isn't to maim or kill your opponent. I still don't believe that grapplers train at 100% but I think it's a matter of semantics to some degree since I can agree that they can go much further and much harder with some of their techniques then some CMA claim.
I also do not believe that you absolutely need to train 100% 100% of the time to be successful. If I train to eye jab, I don't need to literally jab someons eye out, although there are ways to simulate that as close as possible. A combination of these simulations, hard single man training and other training aids can make a person as "hard" as any sport trained person.
I would like to say that sport types who train for competition take their training more seriously on average then it seems others do. I have only run into a couple of people who train even 80% at what the sport guys are training as far as always conditioning, putting in the time and the effort. There is a percieved difference in goals, however I believe that if you are in a martial art to be a serious martial artist, you should also aim to be at the top of your game, even if you don't do competitions, to limit the field of people out there who are in better condition then you are. Thereby limiting your chances of not being able to beat a particular person in a life or death situation on a given day.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
your claim that it is more an external property then an internal leaves me to believe you have been mislead.

Could be. Then again, I train in the internals, and offered up two points of evidence defending my view. And, everyone else who actually trains in the internals whose posted here seems to agree with me. So maybe there's something to it after all...

I certainly welcome some kind of argument to the contrary though; or a request for some references or more evidence or arguments regarding my position.

[truewrestler]

great post red!

No one goes all out 100% of the time or they won't be training for long...but even if you aren't training to compete you should "compete" in class in my opinion to see where you are at and need to work on.

In BJJ and Wrestling there is everyday rolling or sparring where you try new things and then there are times where it is more serious, like almost an in class competition where you nearly go all out. There are plenty guys in BJJ who don't compete in tournaments but train with people who do and are just as good as those who do.

[red5angel]

truewrestler, agreed. Sport type arts have the advantage of allowing the practitioners to trian them harder. I know alot of TMA guys use it as a crutch but it is true that there are some techniques that you just can't train very well against a partner without risk of injury, it doesn't mean you don't train them mind you. I don't think it's a good excuse either. It seems atleast with the advent of open competitions like strong man or UFC type events, some TMA people are finding that training has to be much harder and much more then just drilling, doing forms and sparring. Again I think it's all just a matter of goals and what you are willing to do to be up there with the best.

[truewrestler]

Oh, let me say that there are many things not allowed in MMA that people should work on for self-defense in real-life. No doubt about that.

What I find strange is that some TMA/CMA/etc practitioners think, regardless of how they train, that they are better fighters because they are "real martial artists" and people in combat sports just train for a "sport". I'd take a good MMA fighter who has never thought of themselves as anything other than an athlete in a sport over 99% of all "real martial artists".

[MasterKiller]

What I find strange is that a person not training "hard" in a "sport" thinks they are better because they are a "real martial artist"

Kung fu is not a sport and was never intended to be.

[truewrestler]

MasterKiller, maybe my wording is off because that is not what I was trying to imply.

I have editted my post to make it more clear.

[red5angel]

truewrestler, I agree with you on that. For some reason some martial artists choose to look down on those not like them. Whether it's an art thing, a style thing, a reason thing, what have you. Basic human nature I suppose.
I have a freind who is a greco roman wrestling fiend. I have always considered him a martial artist, and one of the best I know, it doesn't matter to me he trains for different reasons then I do, I have seen what he knows used in a non sportive environ and it was good enough for me.

[MasterKiller]

I understand what you are saying, and I'm with you on most of it. People who train 2 hours a week are not capable of using kung fu properly. A good teacher should make this point clear his students so that egos do not become unduly inflated.

At the same time, kung fu was battle-tested for thousands of years before the invention of modern weapons. The styles that exist today remain because they worked against resisting opponents. It is a combat art designed to win military battles, not trophies.

[norther practitioner]

it doesn't matter to me he trains for different reasons then I do

I wish more people would come to this realization. I train for health, some for sport, some for comradory, etc....

[red5angel]

NP, I think you'd find more of us train for the same reasons you do then not.

MK, I am with you, I have no doubt kungfu works, but it takes some serious dedication to make it work well in my opinion.

[norther practitioner]

Well I think health is a deep thing...

Get beat up, not good health
Good chi (not like mystical proportions, I'm talking the good feeling after doing a taiji class).
Conditioning
Structure
Some Spirituality
etc. this all is health to me.

I think if a kung fu guy, with a good teacher, put the time and effort in training traditionally for a sport match, he'd do OK... there are a lot of things that can play towards this.... Line drills for kicking and other stikes, two man sets with throws, bag work (which is considered somewhat traditional), sparring, even stance drills etc. for conditioning, and forms for cardio (if your system has long forms that are hard..etc.).

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

GDA, that is a great point and your kwoon sounds very good. Why do you think this is not more common in other kwoons? It sounds like they try to give you a "fighting" base to start with

that's exactly what he wants to do. the first thing he wants you to be able to do is land a good hit. the deadliest technique in the world will do little good if it's thrown like a pu ssy. he basically sees fighting, the art, and eventually fighting with the art. fighting is simple and shouldnt be made complex. the art is complex and should ultimately be made simple for it to work.

time and time again i have heard him say if you want to be a good fighter work your side kick, thai/saber kicks, front kick, and stomps ... also work jabs, crosses, hooks, and uppercuts. throw in some elbows/knees, throws, grappeling, and joint locks to round yourself out. work the bag, work the pads, and spar hard. you also got to be in fighting condition so work cardio and hit the weights. not an exact quote mind you, but covers the jist of it.

once you got the basics down you can move on to more complex things like sinking energy or what have you. after training long enough sinking energy becomes second nature and it's no different for you than throwing a clean jab. now it's simple and can be used effectively in fighting. i think this is along the lines of what red's been saying.

i have no idea why more schools don't do something similar cause it sure makes sense to me. giving you that fighting base up front gives you an understanding of what your ultimately trying to accomplish with your kung fu and also gives you something to fall back on when **** hits the fan and you realize your kung fu in quite as second nature as you thought it was.