Traditional Bow

[Odin of Wei]

In one of our forms for Green sash. (I take Kun Tao/Silat) We have one called Shaolin Form.

And we bow in and out differently then with our other forms.

What we do is we circle our hands outward and then bring them up to chest level. Then go into a female stance and bow with a fist like inside a tiger claw.

Is this how they really do it in Shaolin?

Sorry for the stupid question.

[MasterKiller]

The right fist with a left tiger's claw is the traditional Hung Gar bow, I believe.

[norther practitioner]

That is actually a pretty common bow in cma in general... some use the empty stance, some don't. Some just cover the fist with the left hand, some use a palm, some use a tiger claw....

[MasterKiller]

If the hand is merely covering the closed fist, I would say it is a general CMA bow; if it is definitely in a tiger claw, I would say it's probably Hung Gar.

[David Jamieson]

The tiger claw(left) enclosing the fist(right) is a Shaolin salute. It is seen in the Hung Fist styles for sure.

Bows can also be from the school specifically.

cheers

[Odin of Wei]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
If the hand is merely covering the closed fist, I would say it is a general CMA bow; if it is definitely in a tiger claw, I would say it's probably Hung Gar.
Oh now that you metion it. I remember them talking about Hung Gar in my school.

I think that maybe it. Thanks!:D

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Odin of Wei
Then go into a female stance and bow with a fist like inside a tiger claw.




A female stance?

:D


Oooooookay


jeff:)

[Fu-Pau]

Jeff

I think he means 'tiu ma' (cat stance) :)

In Chow Gar we greet with the left palm open (fingers straight) covering the right fist in 'tiu ma'

[jmd161]

Hey Fu-Pau ,

What's going on bro?

I had a feeling that's what he meant.

Never heard it called that before.lol :D


jeff:)

[Shaolinlueb]

right hand in a fist, left hand in a palm. or the one handed bow if your holding a weapon.

[Odin of Wei]

Originally posted by jmd161
Hey Fu-Pau ,

What's going on bro?

I had a feeling that's what he meant.

Never heard it called that before.lol :D


jeff:)
ummm....whao there, chill.
no. That's not what I ment.

Like most of your weight on one leg as you have one foot sort of in the air? No not that.

I ment like you put one leg in front of the other and you can go really low if you got strong leg muscles.

The stance is used mostly for up close and you just keep hitting them while in that stance.

Have to be careful not to be too tight with it so you can't spin out.

A good exerice is to go into Female then to twist out into Horse stance. That is really good for the legs, you feel the burn after a couple of seconds depending on how low you go. ;)

[Fu-Pau]

ok … it's this term "female" stance that's confusing us? Does the stance involve the front foot being turned at a 90 degree angle (with the instep facing forwards) from the back foot? If so it is more commonly known as "ke lum po" or 'Unicorn Stance'

[chief108]

question:
has any of you ever learned the fighting applications that are within these traditional bows???

Chief108

[David Jamieson]

Kao Ma is often called "girl stance" (cow ma)

Or "scissor step" or "twist horse", etc etc.
I wonder what the orgina; names for stance were? :D

Ever style has a different way of calling the same thing.
I have heard the term female or gilr stance used before by some schools because it (the stance) looks vaguely like a curtsy of agirls bow.

cheers

[MasterKiller]

question:has any of you ever learned the fighting applications that are within these traditional bows??? Bows show political affiliation. I wasn't aware there is any martial application in covering your fist with a palm.

[David Jamieson]

mk-

in every movement, including the bows, there shouldn't be waste and those moves should be applicable.

The salute of Shaolin for instance can indeed be used as a reach/hold and strike movement. when the arms circle from out to in the open hand is bracing, the fist is striking. (one app anyway)

point being, there shouldn't be any superfluous movement that does not have application in a form.

cheers

[chief108]

some bows start with feet together then a step forward and the arms and hands might go to your right side...

there ARE martial applications in that as well as buddhist symbols...

think about it....
it's really not that hard to figure it out :D

Chief108

[MasterKiller]

Well, if you want to get that esoteric, then sure, every single thing I do has martial applications. Typing on a keyboard all day long has trained my fingers for precision striking and toughened them as well to avoid breaking, and eating ice cream in the Oklahoma heat trains my reflexes as I have to eat the ice cream before it drips down the cone and gets my fingers sticky.

You will find what you are looking for in anything, if you look hard and long enough.

Sometimes, though, a flower is just a flower.

[GeneChing]

At Songshan Shaolin, the formal bow is like a half namaste (if I can borrow from yoga for a second.) It's like ringing your palms together in front of your heart, a typical Buddhist bow, but unique to Shaolin, it is only done with one hand. This is to honor Huike, Bodhidharma's first disciple and the second patriarch of Zen (Chan) since he was a one-armed man.

[MasterKiller]

Gene,
One could argue that Shaolin uses one hand because they wanted to remain neutral (or at least appear neutral) to the Ching government at a time when other styles were using bows with signficant political underpennings.

What say you?

[NorthernShaolin]

I've never really thought of the salute as a martial move either.

To me it represents a martial understanding symbol. In otherwords, there is an inner meaning to the left palm covering the right fist salute.

In the left hand, each finger and the thumb represent something. The thumb: not being arrogent. The fingers each means: intetegrity of moral, intellectual, physical and aesthetic.

The right fist represents valour and vigor.

The saluation action: the left palm stops the right fist as to mean one is being brave but not wishing to make trouble.

[David Jamieson]

The significance of Hui ke is also seen in saber sets or broadsword sets from Shaolin where the bow begins with the open and press but only with one hand.

There is a lot of legend attached to how Hui ke cut off his own arm to show Bodhidharma how willing he was to learn from him.

I suppose you could attach all sorts of symbolism to silent gestures such as hand signs, salutes, gang signs, etc etc.

I also think it's intersting that ultimately you can find martial application in such a gesture. :)

cheers

[norther practitioner]

I'd have to agree with MK on the whole bow issue as far as martial applications are concerned... Thanks NS I've never heard that reasoning to the fist and open hand...

That Hui Ke legend/story is a very interesting one from the Buddhist perspective, as far as gaining enlightenment, and the different schools of thought to that.:D

[Odin of Wei]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau
ok … it's this term "female" stance that's confusing us? Does the stance involve the front foot being turned at a 90 degree angle (with the instep facing forwards) from the back foot? If so it is more commonly known as "ke lum po" or 'Unicorn Stance'
Sort of like that.

I think you would want to have your foot towards your oppenent.

And you would want to get into his Triangle.

[chief108]

most shaolin forms are build up the same way...
first they don't mean to intend any harm, they start from a point of peace...
then....
they let you know they can harm you...
after that you'll feel what they can do to you :D
and they end with peace....

Chief108

[Subzero]

I learned a hung gar set (the first one can't remeber what it was called ) and the bow i that was the fist and tiger claw.
(I'm a lau gar praticioner)

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by chief108
question:
has any of you ever learned the fighting applications that are within these traditional bows???


Yup

[norther practitioner]

Just learned a new opening where it represents the old long traditional robes (not the monk robes, the long ones like in the movies) getting tucked in the sash... kind of cool, never relised this one.

[MasterKiller]

Reminds me of the Kwan Dao bow, where you symbolically toss General Kwan's beard out of the way before you start the form.

[GeneChing]

The political underpinnings of Shaolin were more based on being a Buddhist monastary. I'm not sure how half of the Buddhist bow would be any less political then a full Buddhist bow. The Huike legend has always been the one that I have heard at Shaolin, and it make the most sense to me. FWIW, many will use the standard double hand Buddhist bow at Shaolin too.