Judo and the Gracie fever

[Neuro]

Here in Brazil, after all the Gracie fever (1993-2003), there is a clear "judo blues" movement, where a lot of people are looking for the good old hard judo training.

Is this also happening in your area ?

Are people discovering that BJJ is almost the same as a strong judo ne-waza ?

No offense to the BJJ practicioners, but I have trained for some years with some judoka who had the same level of groundfighting as the best BJJ stylists, but seemed to have the advantage of also spending a lot of time on stand-up grappling and on the clinch.

And while we are on the subject, can anybody recommend a "good traditional judo book" ?

Thanks in advance for your contributions/opinions.

[Ralek]

but the only problem with judo is that all thier time training stand up is a waste because an average college wrestler destroys judo black belts at stand up.

so the japanese style grapplers are better off sticking to what their good at(ground fighting) and leaving the stand up to the wrestlers who know what they are doing. other than hip toss and uchi mata, the japs can't do anything right with stand up. Just look at the karate mess.

And. remember the history of how judo got ground fighting. a jiujitsu school beat up all the judo guys by doing ground fighting. That's when kano added ground fighting to judo. The strenght of the japanese is in the ground fighitng.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Are people discovering that BJJ is almost the same as a strong judo ne-waza ?

Just the opposite. Good judoka are finding that their groundwork isn't nearly as good as they thought and are seeking cross training with bjj to develop a better rounded game plan.




but I have trained for some years with some judoka who had the same level of groundfighting as the best BJJ stylists,

-This is the exception, not the Rule. I've seen some bjj guys who had excellent throwing skills.

A good book?

Best Judo
by Isao Inokuma, Nobuyuki Sato (Contributor)

[ShaolinTiger00]

because an average college wrestler destroys judo black belts at stand up.

That is a horrible analogy. Compare a college wrestler to a college judoka (San Jose State for example) and you'll see your argument is no longer valid.

[truewrestler]

All I know is that Rhadi Ferguson, 2003 Judo National Champion at 100kg, trains with my former BJJ coach Lloyd Irvin. Perfect compliment for each other in my opinion.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Rhadi is great.

I'm hope to be working out with him this summer when he gets back from Brazil.

I'm positive it will be a lesson in ukemi and humility..

Lloyd is another guy who is both an excellent judoka and bjj bb. in fact many good bjj bb are judo bb as well.

[truewrestler]

And. remember the history of how judo got ground fighting. a jiujitsu school beat up all the judo guys by doing ground fighting. That's when kano added ground fighting to judo. The strenght of the japanese is in the ground fighitng. Please post a link to an article about this. I didn't know this was "when kano added ground fighting to judo". I thought ground fighting was always there but just wasn't focus on.

Kosen Judo (University Judo) was a "style" developed around 1910-1920 by university students who were smaller than the average Judo competitor so they started to focus on ground fighting. Apparently rules were added to limit ground fighting soon after which is why Judo has a timelimit on the ground and some other limiting rules today.

[ShaolinTiger00]

true, you are correct.

Ralek was just fishing and was using half-truth concering the Fusen-Ryu match.

"The Fusen ryu was not a koryu school, rather it was created about the same time as Judo. They were the first club to beat the Kodokan since the tournament against the Tokyo police Jiu Jitsuka in the famous tournament that made Judo's reputation. The Kodokan was beaten badly, losing all but one match. Why? The Fusen ryu were the first style of Jiu Jitsu to emphasis a style of ground fighting that looked very similar to wrestling in many respects. They were the pioneers of newaza. Before that time, the Kodokan, like the koryu schools, applied most katame waza (grappling techniques) standing or as a direct followup to a throw. This type of grappling, along with nage waza (throwing), atemi waza, and weapons defense and techniques (Kano was a certified master of, I believe, 12 traditional battlefield weapons, and Jo Jitsu (art of the staff) was taught at the Kodokan until the 1920s) made up the primary syllabus of the original Kodokan. Grappling around on the mat, transitioning between position, fighting for subs, etc. had no place in the old Jiu Jitsu because it was a battlefield art, meant to be a form of empty-handed fighting for when the warrior lost his weapon (usually the katana). But Kano was open-minded and always looking to improve, so after seeing his Kodokan beaten by this newaza, he did the only logical thing: he asked the Fusen ryu masters to train himself and his top men in newaza. The Fusen ryu consented, and newaza became a major part of Judo. Now, the actual katame waza techniques where largely the same ones the Kodokan had always used. Their application to what we today would think of as a "ground fight" were the innovation. "

- Mark Tripp

[truewrestler]

"They were the first club to beat the Kodokan since the tournament against the Tokyo police Jiu Jitsuka in the famous tournament that made Judo's reputation."

That's what I though Ralek was referring to.

ShaolinTiger00, can you explain "The Fusen ryu was not a koryu school" and did Fusen ryu pracice "Kosen Judo" as I described?

Also, I looked at your profile and noticed the website "Welcome to the Washington D.C. San Shou Club". Is there a club that meets somewhere regularly?

[ShaolinTiger00]

TW, a Koryu school were one of the ancient jujutsu schools. The word means "old flow" and is almost always related to the classical japanese martial arts.

Fusen merged w/ Kano around 1905. later as you know Kosen judo was just an offshoot of standard judo for the university students.

As for my website.. I made it for 3 reasons. 1 an experiment in HTML 2. motivation to get me to get back to fighting trim and gather like-minded fighters together. 3. I love sanshou and wanted to have a page that had good links.

1. It's outdated.

2. We're halfway thru 2003 but I'm making more progress than ever. my family is in good health (pray) I'm beginning to get back in shape, & I've made great friends with an excellent group of wrestlers, bjj guys, judo guys, muay thai.

A DC club will happen. There will be standup and grappling training.

For me to take the lead on this, I have to know that my abilities are at my best. (and prove it) I'm working on that, in physical and mental and teaching spirit.

3. Although my mentality and training has definately turned more towards MMA/grappling, I still feel that san shou is the perfect stand up art.

-Bill Easlick

[truewrestler]

"Fusen merged w/ Kano around 1905. later as you know Kosen judo was just an offshoot of standard judo for the university students."

I was a little confused at first if Fusen and Kosen were two names for the same style. Thanks for the explanation.

[ShaolinTiger00]

anytime.

So you see, Fusen merged with Kodokan judo. When they did that there was a swell of interest in newaza, and I'm sure an advocate of this new judo was part of the origin of Kosen.

:)

[truewrestler]

Where do you train?

[Ralphie]

I just bought a good Judo book called JUDO Beginner to Black Belt by Bruce Tegner. This seems like a good book, and details quite a few ground moves similar to BJJ, anybody know about this book, and how would you rate it?

One other question, a MMA guy I know said to me one time that Judo throws can be hard for him to use in the ring sometime because it relys so much on using the gi. Any other Judo guys think this is true?

[ShaolinTiger00]

TW , see links on my website.

most of the time I am @ NIH or Lynxx, or working out w/ friends at home.

Ralphie, if you took the throws exactly as they are, many are gi dependant. However the transfer to no gi throws is very easy. Lapel grip usually goes to behind head/neck and a sleeve grip usually becomes an over hook or an underhook.
(and in my opinion, muay thai's clinch skills should also be studied here as well. ie "neck wrestling".)

If you look at wrestling, sanshou, mma you'll see many judo throws (many throws and pickups are universal to any kind of grappling) O soto, O goshi, tai otoshi, uchi mata, tani otoshi, uranage, ouchi gari, double leg, single leg, ankle pick -all are in the judo syllabus..

[Ralek]

I fought Shaolin Tiger in real life.

[shaolin kungfu]

And it was a bloody massacre, with brains strewn about the grass.:eek: :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Judo Formal Techniques
Scientific Judo

the Judo Masterclass series

Attacking Judo

[StickyHands]

Does BJJ contain much throw as Judo? The ol cliche crap, street scenario, which would be more adaptable and effective againt multiple nice kids who wants to play patty cakes?

[truewrestler]

I have always thought of Judo as 90% stand up and Jiu-Jitsu 90% ground work

[StickyHands]

so im guessing your answer is, against the nice kids, judo is more feasible.

[truewrestler]

actually practicing both and wrestling and boxing/kickboxing are the best :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by truewrestler
I have always thought of Judo as 90% stand up and Jiu-Jitsu 90% ground work

With judo, that will vary from school to school. There are plenty of clubs that LOVE groundwork. The nature of competition dictates that judo is mostly standup though.

[StickyHands]

i can understand that, but if you had to go with one art that encompasses most efficacy dealing with mult. nice kids, what would you do?

[StickyHands]

hola, adrenaline freaks!

[SevenStar]

I'm proud to be an adrenaline freak...

BJJ can hold its own against the nice kids.

[StickyHands]

This is proven to be interesting, it features Helio Gracie being defeated by Masahiko Kimura, circa 1951.


http://www.judoclub.ca/mpegs/Kimura_Gracie1.mpg

and the continuation of it:

http://www.judoclub.ca/mpegs/Kimura_Gracie2.mpg

Download both!

[chen zhen]

Kimura was cool.:cool:

[chen zhen]

but it was difficult to see who was who in the video.:(

[StickyHands]

uh, HELIO GRACIE VS KIMURA, KIMURA WON!

[chen zhen]

yeah i know, but the brazillian newspaper said that Gracie won..:confused:
or did it?

btw, u should put on the Sakuraba vs. Gracie video.;)

[StickyHands]

No I think they meant the undefeated, victorious Gracie was.... defeated by Kimura... and then suddenly u see the closeup shot of Kimura choking or whatever Gracie. btw, sakuraba vs gracie, u gotta download it through kazaa, havent seen one in a site

Hidehiko Yoshida defeating Royce Gracie -

http://www.shockandvibration.com/judo/video/GracieYoshida.wmv

[chen zhen]

The japs shall win..

BANZAI!!

:p

[StickyHands]

Cant agree with you on that, Banzai sucks the big one! Here's the link of two teenage girls in a match- what's interesting is that you can see them use strikes to distract each other -

http://www.shockandvibration.com/judo/video/tamura_2002_alljapan.rm

it's a long one.

[truewrestler]

"Hidehiko Yoshida defeating Royce Gracie"

Unfortunately the Judo site conveniently shows only 3 seconds of the fight... it leaves out the next where Royce jumps up and protests the stoppage immediately. Yoshida told the ref that Royce is unconscious so the ref stops the match...it is then immediately known that Royce was COMPLETELY conscious.

Yoshida was definitely dominating at the point the match was stopped but it is very frustrating to fans that it ended in such a bad decision by the ref.

[SevenStar]

agreed. that was a bad call by the ref. There's more to it than that though... From what Royce told us, that guy was not even supposed to ref - it was one of the terms of the fight, as there is bad blood between them. striking wasn't supposed to be allowed either, but at the last minute, they decided to allow kicks, if I remember correctly.

[truewrestler]

SevenStar, yeah...I remember that be discussed after the fight.

....just very frustrating

[SevenStar]

very. Hopefully, there will be a rematch.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I have always thought of Judo as 90% stand up and Jiu-Jitsu 90% ground work

To reiterate what 7* said, You may believe this because this is probably the % you would witness if you went to a judo tournament, where a judoka has 5-15 seconds to show "progress" or they are stood back up. In reality judoka practice newaza much more in training.

Likewise as many bjj bb's are bb in judo, they probably teach more throws that you might imagine. I know several bjj students (all purple or above) who have great throws.

The two are much more similar that you think, but where one has technical refinement of throwing, the other has done to matwork.



Kimura won the match after slamming Helio with O-soto gari a few times and then snapping Helio's arm with an ude-garami.

[Ford Prefect]

Here in Brazil, after all the Gracie fever (1993-2003), there is a clear "judo blues" movement, where a lot of people are looking for the good old hard judo training.

Is this also happening in your area ?

I think this depends on the area and the schools. In my area (MA), the Judo guys are nowhere near as good as BJJ on the ground. I've vistted nearly all the local Judo clubs including Jimmy Pedro's (USA Olympic Judoka) and while I will get my ass handed to me on throws, I usually do quite well against people with a lot more experience and a lot more bodyweight too.

The only exception is if I get thrown into a pin. Judo guys are a lot better with their pins than the BJJ guys I train with. Judo also has a lot more rules with groundfighting which make it a lot less technical than BJJ. -You can't pull on the back of the head which makes a triangle choke very hard to apply. -No leg locks. -You just have to pick your opponentup 1" off the floor and you are stood back up. etc etc

I think the best bet to be a complete fighter is to train both BJJ and Judo. Coming from the same art, they compliment each other wonderfully.



And while we are on the subject, can anybody recommend a "good traditional judo book" ?

Attacking Judo by Ippon books is a great Judo book that has some great combinations for tachi waza and ne waza. You can only get it through Ippon which is based in the UK, but it's worth the cash to get it sent here to the Americas.