Any video of REAL Kung-Fu out there? [Archive]

Oso

07-23-2003, 06:31 PM

TW, this has gone round and round before.

there isn't anything out there showing "real" (whatever that is compared to ''not-real'') kung fu.

I hope to have some video from my bouts in the USJJ nationals this october. If I can point to anything in those that I feel stems from my kung fu training (21 years) as opposed to the 6 months of jujitsu training, then I'll post them on my website.

movement is movement whether it's 'kung fu' or 'wrestling' or 'jujitsu' or whatever. you can either fight well with it due to how hard you have trained it or you can't.

fer example, we did a throw last night in jujitsu class that is in at least 3 of the forms I know from kung fu. One of them tai chi where it is called 'slant flying'. the names don't frikkin matter.

I don't think you are trolling here but I do wish everyone would just shut the **** up about the differences and just train.

Laughing Cow

07-23-2003, 06:36 PM

Have to agree with Oso.

What is REAL Kung Fu?
What is REAL wrestling?
etc

IMHO, people would be better MA if they stopped worrying so much about what is REAL and what is not.

Names and similar mean nothing, if you can pull the technique off succesfully than it was REAL.

Just my thoughts.

Xebsball

07-23-2003, 06:38 PM

http://www.xingyitchuen.com.br

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 07:08 PM

I'm interested in seeing Kung Fu outside of sport, since I many people have said that Kung Fu under restrictions isn't REAL Kung Fu. Do you feel otherwise Oso.

Xebsball, I mean no disrespect when I say what follows: I looked at the majority of the videos on that site and they look like bull****.

Xebsball

07-23-2003, 07:14 PM

in wich way?
wich clip more specificly you intend to coment at?
pick one, or ten

i dont have em downloaded on this puter, so id need to download again

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 07:30 PM

Well, the very first one was one of the worst:

http://www.regifraga.hpg.ig.com.br/Xing_Yi_Combat_System/Clips1.wmv

1 - The guy could easily continue through wth the punch in my opinion. He has his body behind it while the other guy only has his arm to block. (edit: after watching in slow motion the attackers punch stops forward movement before the defenders block even reaches the attacking arm... i know i know, just a demo)

2 - Why does the attacker just bend over? Is he reacting to the defender's hand movement towards him. Is the defender doing something I can't see? How many times do you think they did this for it to look right?

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 07:33 PM

That looks significantly less silly and fake than BJJ does to essentially everyone before they try it out for themselves.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 07:35 PM

In what respect Christopher? Did Royce Gracie taking down everyone and choking them out look silly to you? or was it him breaking arms that was silly? Get back to me on that, haha. Seriously though, please let me know what you mean.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 07:38 PM

Flying armbars look patently ridiculous. Flopping to guard from no contact and sitting there in wide open guard looks utterly silly. Hugging someone and flopping to guard looks just plain goofy.

That people made it work wasn't the question. Whether or not it looked foreign and absurd to people unfamiliar with it was.

Xebsball

07-23-2003, 07:39 PM

i dont know how many times they did
some of the videos were reharsed (spell?) applications, others werent
i wasnt there at the shooting, since they did it in Rio

from the clip i cant tell if he gets pulled down either, if he turns his head down its probably cos he expected that counter strike

though that ending strike would indeed have the effect of putting down the guy forcing him to bend

as for the continued punches, again i dunno if they combined it to be one punch on this clip or if he didnt have time to do others before the counter

but i think there was some other clip where he tried to throw more

there are many other clips? any more pertinent comments?
ill try to download em all again now (56k style)

Chang Style Novice

07-23-2003, 07:42 PM

It looked to me like the defender was no longer in the line of the attackers blow due to the defender's shift to the right and turn (to be fair, it also looked like the punch was misaimed to start with.) As for the bend forward, it looked to me like the attacker was ducking the left palm counterattack.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 07:47 PM

You mean flying armbars that don't work right? When they work they don't look silly at all...they look down right painful.

Everything else I agree looks silly and is often frustrating as a fight fan to see when not used effectively... but it is some fighter's strategy though to get the fight to the ground when they are lacking in other areas like striking or takedowns....or their opponent is vastly superior in those areas. Fighting from the back probably looks silly at first too right? I thought so too until Royce choked out Severn with a triangle. I was really impressed by Royce in the early UFCs... at the time, me being a wrestler in highschool, I thought it was great seeing a "wrestler" beat "martial artists".

Xebsball

07-23-2003, 07:47 PM

Chang,
i dont think it was misaimed, tried to measure it from looking, it would more like land on the nose (though not fully penetrating), thats why Marcello moved back
youre probably right about him ducking the second strike, like i said he probly felt it coming or already knew

on a second note here im not sure what Marcello was originaly demonstrating cos it could be 2 things (both them good):

a palm strike: to show how it would go trough the attacker (correct range for xing yi strikes)
a forearm strike: at the back of the head (ouch) - this one really makes people bend over

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Xebsball
i dont know how many times they did
some of the videos were reharsed (spell?) applications, others werent
i wasnt there at the shooting, since they did it in Rio

from the clip i cant tell if he gets pulled down either, if he turns his head down its probably cos he expected that counter strike

though that ending strike would indeed have the effect of putting down the guy forcing him to bend

as for the continued punches, again i dunno if they combined it to be one punch on this clip or if he didnt have time to do others before the counter

but i think there was some other clip where he tried to throw more

there are many other clips? any more pertinent comments?
ill try to download em all again now (56k style) I downloaded almost all of them and didn't find one that I thought was showing something useful. If you want to point one out that I might have missed please feel free to do so.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
You mean flying armbars that don't work right?

No, I mean flying armbars. They always look very complicated and very silly.

Yes, they do look painfull when they work; as would the move you're commenting on in the movie.

Xebsball

07-23-2003, 07:56 PM

how so not usefull? to teach you? or what?

the videos display chinese martial arts, not what you see in a typical san shou ring, or boxing, or muay thai

if you doubt our style to work in a real fighting situation then i invite you to let me know when youre in brazil, that fixes things very praticly

Knifefighter

07-23-2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Oso
fer example, we did a throw last night in jujitsu class that is in at least 3 of the forms I know from kung fu. One of them tai chi where it is called 'slant flying'. the names don't frikkin matter. And therein lies the difference. It may be the same technique, but at the same time, it's not. One is done in forms. The other is done with a partner to develop kinesthenic awareness and is then utilized in sparring.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:02 PM

Xebsball, I understand your view. I agree that a palm strike to the side of the head would hurt but I don't think blocking strikes in the way shown would work in a live situation.

This is EXACTLY the point of this thread. I want to see stuff like the techniques in these videos in a LIVE situation of some kind. I have never seen this in a San Shou bout or anywhere for that matter.

Now I think you know exactly what I'm looking for.... know where I can find it?

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:04 PM

http://store1.yimg.com/I/fightworld2_1745_3699966

Oso

07-23-2003, 08:05 PM

I'm interested in seeing Kung Fu outside of sport, since I many people have said that Kung Fu under restrictions isn't REAL Kung Fu. Do you feel otherwise Oso.

dude, I dropped out of debating that subject months ago. I do what I do and feel confident about it.

if you, and everyone else, feels confident about what you do than that's great.

Xebsball

07-23-2003, 08:06 PM

ah i hear you

you want to see it applied at full power on a sparring or fighting situation

i myself dont have any video of that, though yes i know some who have, but im not sure if they're sharing, so you gotta give me some time to find out

still, let me knwo if you ever come to brazil

complementing the previous, yet, when we fight we use our xing yi stuff, all those punches, palms, kicks, etc - we apply the stuff that we train, you dont see us holding a boxing guard bouncing and throwing jab/jab/cross or whatever

Laughing Cow

07-23-2003, 08:07 PM

truewrestler.

To see KF used in a real life situation you either need to be there or if you are lucky get hold of some tapes that come from surveillance systems.

Problem with surveillance stuff is bad quality, no info on participants and often bad angles.

Anything else will always be open to interpretation or critique about rules, location, etc.

BTW, many of those so called surveilance videos on the Net are staged and arranged stuff too.

Cheers.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:08 PM

Xebsball, if I get back into BJJ seriously there is a chance I may go to Brazil before I die :)

jon

07-23-2003, 08:08 PM

"And therein lies the difference. It may be the same technique, but at the same time, it's not. One is done in forms. The other is done with a partner to develop kinesthenic awareness and is then utilized in sparring."
* Curious...
How do you know that this is not the case in many CMA classes?
Maybe ive just gotten extreamly lucky but from what i can tell of a lot of martial arts schools.

Form is uttalised to understand yourself and your own power generation and posture.

Drilling Sparring are done so as to understand the other person, your adversary.

Two halfs of a compleate package.

All im trying to get accross is that in my personal experience and training you learn a move in a form first so that you understand how it works and how it can be flowed in and out of.
Then you start to learn to apply with a partner at various levels of resistance untill you can apply the move when required under preasure.

If your comment is that only training in forms will make you an incompetant fighting then i agree with you totaly.

Still i cant help thinking your comment is just a misconception based off your own personal opinion of how you *think* the average chinese martial arts class trains.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:10 PM

That's cool Oso... I used to rollerblade :p

Oso

07-23-2003, 08:10 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Oso
fer example, we did a throw last night in jujitsu class that is in at least 3 of the forms I know from kung fu. One of them tai chi where it is called 'slant flying'. the names don't frikkin matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And therein lies the difference. It may be the same technique, but at the same time, it's not. One is done in forms. The other is done with a partner to develop kinesthenic awareness and is then utilized in sparring.

you make the assumption that i never trained that throw in any manner but the forms.

there is no ****ing difference as long as you train.

the advantage I had last night is that I knew this move from at least 3 different perspectives (tan tui, pm and tai chi) and had trained it live before. all I gained last night was a fourth perspective and more live training.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:12 PM

truewrestler - just like with BJJ, touching hands is worth 1000 words at least, or 1000 mpegs for that matter. If you posted where you were, someone could probably suggest a decent CMA school nearby with open mat time.

Asking for a video of something done NHB style, which is nonetheless not part of a planned competition, which looks foreign to you, yet which simultaneously looks like the things you presently like... is really not likely to turn out successfull.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:15 PM

Northern Virginia....?

Oso

07-23-2003, 08:18 PM

TW, I get to Richmond a couple times a year. I'll give you a shout next time. I was just up there and tried to get up with some of the DC guys but everyone was apparently tied up over the 4th of July weekend.

I'll willingly roll or standup or both.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:20 PM

Oh, sorry... didn't know you were in the middle of nowhere. :p

Just kidding... the closest people I know to you who'd be up for it are in New York, but maybe someone who knows your area will post.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:20 PM

Asking for a video of something done NHB style, which is nonetheless not part of a planned competition, which looks foreign to you, yet which simultaneously looks like the things you presently like... is really not likely to turn out successfull. I think you are just BSing. If someone showed you a video of Cung Le (or insert someone you know/respect) being taken down and choked out in an MMA competition you would really just think submissions are silly right? I hope not or something is wrong :)

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:21 PM

"didn't know you were in the middle of nowhere"

DC/Baltimore area

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:24 PM

That would be great Oso.

We should definitely have a get together or something in the future.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
If someone showed you a video of Cung Le (or insert someone you know/respect) being taken down and choked out in an MMA competition you would really just think submissions are silly right?

Sorry; I don't understand. I don't think submissions are silly, if that's what you're asking.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:25 PM

"Sorry; I don't understand. I don't think submissions are silly, if that's what you're asking."

Ok, someone does a flying ****ing armbar (you said they look silly right?) on Cung Le and breaks his ****ing arm

Oso

07-23-2003, 08:26 PM

good enough then. we can debate with sweat.

g'night folks

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:27 PM

later man

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:28 PM

Yes, they do look silly. They look highly improbable, highly committed, highly technical, requiring of a very peculiar posture, and generally everything else that people use as 'rules of thumb' for techniques that won't work. However, I didn't say I thought they didn't work (let alone that chokes didn't work, or subs in general didn't work); I was juxtaposing a very dubious technique which I suspected you felt was realistic, since you had personal experience with it... with a very simple technique which you felt was dubious (since you don't have any experience with it?).

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:35 PM

So what you are telling me is that you can't show me a video with any of the techniques that are shown in the videos on that site posted? If so, oh well... I asked

Laughing Cow

07-23-2003, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
So what you are telling me is that you can't show me a video with any of the techniques that are shown in the videos on that site posted? If so, oh well...

How many videos can you show me of BJJ or wrestling being used in a REAL situation.

I define REAL as a REAL random attack in the street, pub or similar location.

What is YOUR definition of REAL??

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
So what you are telling me is that you can't show me a video with any of the techniques that are shown in the videos on that site posted?

:confused:

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:43 PM

blah blah blah

show me any video against a resisting opponent... sport, bar, strip club... I don't give a crap where as long as it shows REAL Kung Fu.

Chistopher, Please use words

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:44 PM

Laughing Cow... I didn't even use the word REAL in that quote.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:47 PM

Just couldn't make sense of the question: "So you can't show me any videos of those videos?"

Laughing Cow

07-23-2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
Laughing Cow... I didn't even use the word REAL in that quote.

Maybe not in that quote, but in the thread title and many other posts here.

QUOTE] show me any video against a resisting opponent... sport, bar, strip club... I don't give a crap where as long as it shows REAL Kung Fu.[/QUOTE]

If you want to see KF against a resisting opponent, go to any kwoon that does full contact free-form sparring and take your Camera along.

BTW, even if we showed you such a video I would doubt that you would be satisified, but will rather be nitpicking things that you see as wrong.

So what's the point??

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:50 PM

come on Chris, I'm looking for a fight using techniques like those shown in the video clips on the site Xebsball posted

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:54 PM

BTW, even if we showed you such a video I would doubt that you would be satisified, but will rather be nitpicking things that you see as wrong. Wow, that was an easy way out.... or was that your only way out?

Do these kwoons ever record video of sparring? I have seen a lot of Kung Fu sparring online and it always seems to look just like San Shou.

Christopher M

07-23-2003, 08:54 PM

An arm drag leading to a punch in the head? You've never seen that? :confused:

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 08:55 PM

sure... if you could post the fight video and the technique video that would be awesome!

Laughing Cow

07-23-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
Wow, that was an easy way out.... or was that your only way out?

Whichever one YOU choose.
:D

Do these kwoons ever record video of sparring? I have seen a lot of Kung Fu sparring online and it always seems to look just like San Shou.

Some I think do so that their students can watch them and learn from them.
Don't know if they are kept or made available to the public though.
Will vary from kwoon to kwoon I expect.

In my style we practice something called "San shou" it means "Sparring Hands" and is one level up from "Push Hands/Tui Shou".

Seeya round.

jon

07-23-2003, 09:00 PM

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/indexed.html
Click 'Bagua' on the menu on the left hand side, then 'fighting' on the menu on the top. Then just click on the pic for the video.
BK Francis using Baguazhang in a demonstration.

Its fairly obviously a bit hammed up for demonstration purposes but you can still get a feel for the way he uses the art.

Im not putting this up saying this is 'true' combat or anything else it is what it is and i think it fits the bill for what you asked for.

Flame away:D

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 09:15 PM

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/bagua/fighting/pkfight.mov

Thanks Jon. I would like to hear others opinions of this before I add mine :) because I'm going to bed

Chang Style Novice

07-23-2003, 09:18 PM

Truewrestler, you've set it up so we can't win.

On the one hand, you want it to be "REAL kung fu, not sport, not san shou."

On the other hand, you want it to be live against a fully resisting opponent. You're only going to get that when people are practicing in a sport-like situation, because practicing live against a fully resisting opponent is the defining characteristic of that situation.

Therefore, the tacit presumption is that "REAL kung fu" doesn't go live against a fully resisting opponent, and you can dismiss anything that does as just "kickboxing mixed with wrestling."

Nice troll, dude, but you're found out.

jon

07-23-2003, 09:20 PM

http://evolutionary-systems.com

Master Su Dong-Chen is someone i really admire as well.
Some of the clips on this site are very good for showcasing some of the strong points and uses of Internal arts.

Again there meant to be for demonstration just to get a feel for how the systems work there not meant to be 'fight' clips.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 09:23 PM

LOL Chang Style Novice, what do you think of the video jon posted?

Do you consider San Shou a good representation of "REAL Kung Fu"? If so, why does it look like Muay Thai and Wrestling combined? If not, do you have any video of "REAL Kung Fu"??

I am a very reluctant troll.... unfortunately asking serious questions about Kung Fu feels like trolling sometime. That however is not my intention.

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 09:24 PM

ok, I'm going to bed... you guys can argue amongst yourselves

I will leave you with these video clips:

http://pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/dim_mak_taiji_video.htm

great highlight reels here:

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/highlights.htm

Chang Style Novice

07-23-2003, 09:32 PM

Haven't seen it. My home computer's too slow to mess around with downloading video. I do like what I've seen from Su Dong Shen, though.

And yes, I do consider San Shou to be real kung fu. I've never understood the attitude of those who say otherwise. It looks like kickboxing mixed with wrestling because kungfu is about kicking, punching and throwing your opponent (also locking and siezing your opponent, but the gloves don't permit that), just like kickboxing is about kicking and punching your opponent and wrestling is (in part) about throwing your opponent.

Lemme put it another way - why do judo, sombo, catch wrestling and bjj all look pretty similar?

jon

07-23-2003, 09:32 PM

If you want my personal opinion i think its a very nice demonstration.

I dont think it represents a real fight and i dont think its supposed to.
I highly doubt the guy playing the aggressor was willing to risk knocking out a fellow practioner who was simply asking him to help demonstrate.

The guy who is playing the aggressor doesnt really commit much to his strikes and seems to allow himself to be controlled when he sences he's supposed to.

On the other hand BK Francis shows some very nice stepping and is always clearly in a postion of dominence over his opponent. You can notice he is very consistant at breaking his opponents structure and then wiping him up while he is off balance.
I also liked the way he intergrated the stepping sweeps with his hand strikes (resulting in the takedowns) as this is a part of Bagua which IMHO you dont see enough of.

So yeah it does look a bit hammy becouse its obviously not a real fight and im fairly sure no one was out to do any real harm which makes it kinda silly in the first place. Still it does give you an idea of the way in which some people choose to employ Bagua.

The real problem here is that real fighting is short and to the point.
If im attacked on the street ill use the most effective thing at the time. The truth is good fighting is good fighting, its whatever is the most effective responce at the time.

You also have to consider that China is a darn big place with a lot of very diverse people. Many systems of kung fu are hugely different and have approches to training that are worlds appart.
Hence what i put up as 'kung fu' may be very different to someone elses impression.

Laughing Cow

07-23-2003, 09:40 PM

truewrestler.

First link, I got my reservations regarding the person shown on that side.
Call it a personal dislike for the guy.
;)

2nd is that REAL fighting, if so why don't you accept San Shou clips or similar than??

Have to agree with both Jon & CSN fighting is fighting, if you expect clips that the styles of as nicely as the movies do I got to disappoint you.

In a proper fight often the action is so quick that many moves are lost on people that are not familiar with the specific style used.

Example:
You might look at what the hand does while the knee breaks the opponents structure or similar.

Cheers.

FatherDog

07-23-2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
If you want to see KF against a resisting opponent, go to any kwoon that does full contact free-form sparring and take your Camera along.

If you can find one...

:D

Chang Style Novice

07-23-2003, 09:45 PM

Sigh - all too true, Dawg.:(

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 09:45 PM

I really gotta go to bed:

http://216.40.244.4/misc/jvt98/jvt98_sakurai_vs_bytchkov.zip

jon

07-23-2003, 09:46 PM

I think San Shao is a great format to fight under.
I dont really consider it 'kung fu' becouse its just a sporting format.
Sure you can use 'kung fu' in it but then again I wouldnt generalise to much about what is used. It tends to all end up somewhat similar though at higher levels becouse to win you need to meet up to certain criteria. For example throws highly outweight strikes on a point scale so any San Shao artist who actualy wants to win will be going hell for leather for the takedowns and throws and even sacrificing the odd hit to get those in.
Spinning movements are also scored more highly meaning that it can be advatagous to go for the spinning back kick occasionaly.

All in all San Shao is a great sporting format and an excerlent way to test skills in certain areas.

Its also designed for entertainment and to be enjoyed by spectators so like many sports most things considered 'nasty' are avoided like the plauge.
As a shining example it 'is' possible to score points in San Shao by holding an opponent in a standing Chin Na lock for a couple of seconds without them being able to escape ( no one does it becouse its a waste of time and points but still . However it is illegal to strike a joint in the wrong direction so if my opponent go's for a high scoring spinning back kick i cant simply boot his knee in.
So here we have a situation where you can hold a joint in a lock and say haha ive got you and score. However if you simply smash strait though that joint without first applying a lock... your in the wrong.

So yeah San Shao is great fun and a cool way to compeate if your that way minded.

It aint fighting for your life though, shinny trophys and some cash maybe but not your life:D

Shaolin-Do

07-23-2003, 09:49 PM

Thx for the link jon. I liked it...
:)

truewrestler

07-23-2003, 09:54 PM

Asian fettish highlight night LOL... time for bed:

http://216.40.244.4/misc/jvt97/jvt97_sato_vs_lewis.zip

http://216.40.244.4/misc/jvt99/jvt99_sato_vs_cordeiro.zip

jon

07-23-2003, 09:59 PM

truewrestler

Go to sleep and stop thinking about large muscle heads in spandex being beaten up by tiny old asian men wearing silk Taijiquan outfits :p

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 05:48 AM

haha, good nights sleep except that I had a dream about large muscle heads in spandex being beaten up by tiny old asian men wearing silk Taijiquan outfits

MasterKiller

07-24-2003, 06:52 AM

I met Gary Romel (in the tai chi vids). He's a cool guy. I'd rather study with him than Rich Mooney. Both guys are within 45 minutes of me.

ShifuBinks

07-24-2003, 07:11 AM

Somebody could enter a san shou or kickboxing competition and try to use kung fu techniques...sure there might be some disadvantages i.e. the kung fu practitioner couldn't use his eagle claw or whatever, but they could still try to use many kung fu techniques...my point is, when you enter a san shou tournament, the people running the tournament don't tell you "OK you have to fight with both hands up, shoulders high, and bounce around a lot." I agree that this is the way that most san shou fighters fight, but if a kung fu entered the tournament he wouldn't be forced to fight this way...I think san shou refers more to the set of rules than the style the fighters use...?

BTW, regarding the clip of real kung fu:
I usually use a lot of kickboxing when I fight but this weekend is my grandmaster's tournament and if it looks like I'm kickboxing he's gonna be ticked big time...I will probably end up kickboxing anyway but if I do in fact succeed in using some kung fu I'll put the clip online...

Suntzu

07-24-2003, 07:17 AM

Jon.... i dont care what it looks like... just kick somebody's azz... or i'm gonna kick yo azz... good luck...

Water Dragon

07-24-2003, 10:34 AM

Ask and you shall receive. Full Contact Traditional Wing Chun!

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 10:52 AM

very interesting to say the least

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/movs/entry0.avi

Would this work against someone who is trying to punch your face instead of the energy around you? http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/movs/hook_hook0.avi

Do you know how this technique might be different if the top guy has a right arm to post on? http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/movs/ground0.avi

Thanks Water Dragon, any video of sparring?

Xebsball

07-24-2003, 10:56 AM

San Shou - what does Xebby say about it

on first instance:
* Change the boxing gloves for mma gloves
* Allow elbows and knees

then im in
word

Water Dragon

07-24-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by truewrestler

Thanks Water Dragon, any video of sparring?

Didn't you notice that some of the clips were filmed in a boxing ring? Jeesh, you MMA guys can be so dense sometimes.

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 10:59 AM

Water Dragon,

Do you think the following clip would be better practice with headgear and actually head contact being attempted?

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/movs/elbow_watch1.avi

"Watching the Elbow. The first set is done at real speed, next it is slowed down and finally a real life scenario."

THANKS!

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon

Didn't you notice that some of the clips were filmed in a boxing ring? Jeesh, you MMA guys can be so dense sometimes. I'm confused... what does a boxing ring have to do with anything? I'm looking for sparring... unless you are saying that this is sparring:

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/movs/entry0.avi

THANKS!

Water Dragon

07-24-2003, 11:12 AM

Yes, I'm saying it is sparring. Can't you see how vicious the clip is?

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 11:17 AM

Water Dragon

07-24-2003, 11:19 AM

Go ahead and laugh. Did you see how quickly and efficiently they were able to take care of the BJJ guy in that groundfighting clip? Now maybe you can understand why Kung Fu is too deadly for the ring. :mad:

Xebsball

07-24-2003, 11:22 AM

you actin funny, now you wont get cool videos you silly boys :p

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 11:22 AM

:confused: :D :p

mortal

07-24-2003, 11:23 AM

Try www.sifugrados.com

Oso

07-24-2003, 12:04 PM

LOL

TW, it took you a sec to realize WD was joking.

Sifu Grados looks pretty tight. Still not 'full contact' but I didn't look at everything available. kudos to him for posting stuff though.

truewrestler

07-24-2003, 12:11 PM

I have seen his videos before. What I find most interesting is his demonstration of pushing flat footed people down into a chair with his fist. They then push off the floor so they go sliding backwards in the chair place behind them.

I usually push people in the chest with my palm but he uses his fist...

Where is that thread about parlor tricks? :D

I'll look through his stuff again. Thanks for posting his site.

red5angel

07-24-2003, 01:12 PM

What exactly would be your definition of "real" kungfu? I saw some videos floating around of some tournemant with some guys in yellow. I know some bagua was used for those.

Grados does alot of demos and his videos are dressed up but by watching him you can tell he can fight.

Oso

07-24-2003, 01:17 PM

a agree about Grados. his movement was very tight, imo.

i'd sure as heck not want him all up my centerline.

luckily my devastatingly lethal mantis footwork would allow me to keep him where I wanted him.;)

Shaolin-Do

07-24-2003, 01:22 PM

I like the mantis footwork from what Ive seen :)
I also really like the stepping from those splashing hands vids....

Shadowboxer

07-24-2003, 01:28 PM

FWIW,

I went to a San Shou match in Cleveland several months ago. The head of the competition warned one of the Mantis guys about punching too many times in a row, "this is not boxing" he said. There's a rule I don't get.

TW, Fa-jing is sending me some videos of his stuff for me to edit. I believe he intends to post it if/when he can find a host. Stay tuned...

The one-inch punch is a demo thing that can probably be learned by anybody. But what did you think of the rest of his clips?

fa_jing

07-24-2003, 01:28 PM

http://members.lycos.nl/wingtsuncombat/movies/WT2.mpg

fa_jing

07-24-2003, 01:32 PM

ps, no that's not me ;)

FYI - my stuff is mostly sparring sessions and a some brief full-contact matches. Looks alot like western kickboxing but I can point you to certain KF techs and especially footwork that come out - to me, winning is most important, and if ANYTHING I do comes out looking like Kung Fu I am happy.

fa_jing

07-24-2003, 01:38 PM

http://members.lycos.nl/wingtsuncombat/movies/WT1.mpg

This one is a bit better - less fake groundfighting LOL

jon

07-24-2003, 07:21 PM

Street combat
Street combat
battle street combat, this is street combat

LMAO!!!
That video was hillarious but for all the wrong reasons :p

In all seriousness that video just exemplifys my pet hate when it comes to demonstrating.
*His* technique looked really crisp and he obviously has a good handle on what he was doing. His students on the other hand where clearly letting him walk all over them and barely putting up any type of defence other than occasionaly throwing an arm out for him to react off.

The problem with a lot of these clips including the ones ive posted is that only one party is really trying. The other is simply allowing what they believe to be the inevitable to happen sooner.

Im by no means saying any of the people in these clips cant fight and i also would like to believe there students would not be stupid enough to learn off someone they where fairly sure they could beat. The fact remains these clips still look like only one person is actualy displaying any type of resistance, thats usualy the defender :rolleyes:

Still for the rest of the day im going to have that f*kin song stuck in my brain.

Street combat, street combat AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Merryprankster

07-25-2003, 03:58 AM

TW,

Here is what I have learned in my (substantial) time on this forum:

1. Good Real Kung Fu, when used to fight, looks an awful lot like every other match--two fighters fighting each other--doing fighting type things. You wouldn't be able to distinguish it much from anything else.

2. "REAL" Kung Fu practicioners, however, will tell you that what that "Kung Fu" guy was doing wasn't "REAL" Kung Fu. He might be a good fighter, but it wasn't "REAL" Kung Fu. And in a sense, they're right. You won't see Good Real Kung Fu that looks like "REAL" Kung Fu, because Good Real Kung Fu looks like fighting, whereas "REAL" Kung Fu is apparently supposed to look like "Angry Monkey Flings the Poo," while fighting out of the "Please take me down and beat my ass senseless" stance. This is why "REAL" Kung Fu men slaver over demo clips--"that's the way it's SUPPOSED to look and work, see?!"

3. Anybody who loses isn't doing Kung Fu.

In other words, there are plenty of San Shou fighters out there using their Kung Fu backgrounds to fight and they do it well. But because it looks like actual fighting and not a bad animal impression they aren't doing "REAL" Kung Fu.

This all has the wonderful effect of belief preservation for the "REAL" Kung Fu guys in that any time a Good Real Kung Fu Fighter loses, he wasn't doing "REAL" Kung Fu, and the faith is preserved.

A corollary to the above is what I affectionately refer to as the "KFO Statistical Conundrum:"

99% of what is taught as Kung Fu is actually crap, but somehow, everybody who studies CMA that comes to this forum has found that other 1%...

Got it?

David Jamieson

07-25-2003, 05:22 AM

1. Good Real Kung Fu, when used to fight, looks an awful lot like every other match--two fighters fighting each other--doing fighting type things. You wouldn't be able to distinguish it much from anything else.

This is actually true. There is nothing flashy aboute principle driven combat. It's down it's dirty like anything else.

I have practiced asian martial arts for most of my life and I have practiced chinese martial arts exclusively for the last 9 or so years.

The forms training is not how your fighting looks. There are brief glimpses in moments of stepping or locking and some of the ranged techniques are particular, but the rest is down and dirty.

It seems to me though that the only ones who go on and on about Kungfu training are those people who DON'T train Kungfu :D hahaha.

It just gets under their skin that people actually enjoy what Chinese martial arts practice has to offer I guess. Oh well.
At least I'm not so stupid as to write off someone because of their training style.

cheers

old jong

07-25-2003, 05:38 AM

What is important is not how it looks but how it feels to the opponent.
But ,a technique done with body unity and power should have some "distinction" in it.

old jong

07-25-2003, 06:11 AM

I don't mean this!... (http://wongchineseboxing.com/Canye_Liling_Picture.gif)

Knifefighter

07-25-2003, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Oso
you make the assumption that i never trained that throw in any manner but the forms.

there is no ****ing difference as long as you train.

the advantage I had last night is that I knew this move from at least 3 different perspectives (tan tui, pm and tai chi) and had trained it live before. all I gained last night was a fourth perspective and more live training. I make that assumption based on your statement that you had done it before in your forms. Someone who had actually done it before in sparring would have said something to the effect of "we did the same throws that I have used in my kung fu sparring."

Knifefighter

07-25-2003, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by jon
Form is uttalised to understand yourself and your own power generation and posture.

Drilling Sparring are done so as to understand the other person, your adversary.

Two halfs of a compleate package. Drilling 35% of the package; sparring 60% of the package; forms 5% of the package.

ewallace

07-25-2003, 07:52 AM

MP's post should be in it's own thread, the thread should be closed and made sticky. Or it should just be the welcome message to all new KFM forum users.

fa_jing

07-25-2003, 09:06 AM

Too bad I missed the music. Actually they ripped on those vids on the Wing Chun forum. But I'm saying, how are you supposed to demonstrate a technique so that other people can see it distinctly? You demonstrate on your own scared little students, that's how. Something like boxing is easier to pick up on as an observer-- you have the bright gloves, only two limbs to watch. 4-limbed bare-handed fighting with grabs is harder to follow. A real wrestling match is also harder to follow, if you aren't familiar with the subtle moves and the balance considerations and all that. I'm sure that if the footage was of two wing chun guys free-sparring with gloves, you'd say where is the wing chun? I have video of a Wing Chun and a Mantis instructor free sparring at a moderate intensity without gloves - you can see their arts, because that's how they train. The fight goes to the ground a few times - natural in a free sparring situation, and as competant MA instructors they continued a few more seconds each time. But I thought the WT vids were good demonstrations, anyway, despite the weak attacks. You saw a lot of punches, elbows, knees, leg checks, intermediate -level grappling - stuff where I would say, yes that looks effective - no I don't have any doubt that the instructor could pull alot of this stuff off on a resisting opponent, however if he met a top-level sport fighter in a sporting context, he'd hold his own but probably lose, but I'd give him a slight edge over said sport fighter in the street, who would hold his own but probably lose. The techniques seemed simple and effective - it wasn't like he was utilizing the tornado kick defense against a knife or anything.

Oso

07-25-2003, 12:21 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Oso
you make the assumption that i never trained that throw in any manner but the forms.

there is no ****ing difference as long as you train.

the advantage I had last night is that I knew this move from at least 3 different perspectives (tan tui, pm and tai chi) and had trained it live before. all I gained last night was a fourth perspective and more live training.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I make that assumption based on your statement that you had done it before in your forms. Someone who had actually done it before in sparring would have said something to the effect of "we did the same throws that I have used in my kung fu sparring."

umm, no that's not what I said. Please note bold type above in my quoted statement. thanks.

red5angel

07-25-2003, 12:34 PM

Hey MP, I enjoyed your post, some of it I know how to take, some of it I don't. I do have to say I have seen "real" kungfu in a fight actually look like "real" kungfu. I also know some people who can use "real" kungfu to whip up on your average person no problem. Could they take sport fighters, probably not, for a myriad of reasons, but I don't think that is their interest and I think they know if they encountered someone in a "real" situation they would be fukked.
Anyway, not sure if I am fighting your post or agreeing...

norther practitioner

07-25-2003, 01:18 PM

I'd have to agree with r5a on his last post.. and MP with about 99% of the general kung fu populus...

I think that a round kick is a round kick, a side kick a side kick, and an uppercut an uppercut... however, I also think to be able to throw any of those techs... you need to know how to do it know matter what your stance is....

Oh, and sometimes, tma can really come out in the footwork.. I think that is where some people get fooled.. but maybe I'm just hallucinating again.

GunnedDownAtrocity

07-25-2003, 03:54 PM

Drilling Sparring are done so as to understand the other person, your adversary.

i think you're still learning about yourself mostly. but that's just me.

Knifefighter

07-25-2003, 04:51 PM

Oso

07-26-2003, 05:08 AM

knifefighter, ok. my bad. I didn't look all the way back. busy as hell at the moment.

however I did clarify in my second post that I had trained it live and by that I mean in situational sparring as well as pulling it off in free fighting.

this is a dumb argument to get into on a forum. the only way to quantify is with video. I don't have any of myself. Do you? It's highly unlikely that anyone is going to have video of themselves in an all out street fight. So, what is the point of arguing about it. I STILL don't give a rat's ass what a bunch of people on a forum think of what I do.

SevenStar

07-27-2003, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by Xebsball
San Shou - what does Xebby say about it

on first instance:
* Change the boxing gloves for mma gloves
* Allow elbows and knees

then im in
word

why not try mma?

SevenStar

07-27-2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by ShifuBinks
Somebody could enter a san shou or kickboxing competition and try to use kung fu techniques...sure there might be some disadvantages i.e. the kung fu practitioner couldn't use his eagle claw or whatever, but they could still try to use many kung fu techniques...my point is, when you enter a san shou tournament, the people running the tournament don't tell you "OK you have to fight with both hands up, shoulders high, and bounce around a lot." I agree that this is the way that most san shou fighters fight, but if a kung fu entered the tournament he wouldn't be forced to fight this way...I think san shou refers more to the set of rules than the style the fighters use...?

BTW, regarding the clip of real kung fu:
I usually use a lot of kickboxing when I fight but this weekend is my grandmaster's tournament and if it looks like I'm kickboxing he's gonna be ticked big time...I will probably end up kickboxing anyway but if I do in fact succeed in using some kung fu I'll put the clip online...

How did the fights go?

Out of curiousity, if you are training kung fu, why would you kickbox? have you had previous kickboxing training?

SevenStar

07-27-2003, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by fa_jing
ps, no that's not me ;)

FYI - my stuff is mostly sparring sessions and a some brief full-contact matches. Looks alot like western kickboxing but I can point you to certain KF techs and especially footwork that come out - to me, winning is most important, and if ANYTHING I do comes out looking like Kung Fu I am happy.

Are those the tapes you showed WD and I?

Xebsball

07-27-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by SevenStar

why not try mma?

shhhh...

its my little secrets :D

btw

i see dead peole... :eek:

chen zhen

07-27-2003, 10:50 AM

San Shou should have been the CMA version of UFC/MMA from the start.
That would've been cool.

NorthernMantis

07-27-2003, 11:45 AM

okay tw try these

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/video/hit_while_moving.WVM

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/video/m_su_leg_tackle.WMV

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/video/master_su_opening.WMV

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/video.html

NorthernMantis

07-27-2003, 12:28 PM

More clips

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/tung_jee_kuen_techniques.htm

chen zhen

07-27-2003, 12:33 PM

The links did'nt work, except the YKM.

NorthernMantis

07-27-2003, 12:43 PM

Ok try this

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/video.html

That's where I got them form. When I click on the links they work.:confused:

chen zhen

07-27-2003, 12:57 PM

It just sez "Publications > Video Clips" in the top of the page, but I can't see any clips. Just a white screen.:confused:

NorthernMantis

07-27-2003, 12:58 PM

Hmm... ok well try the homepage.

I think you might need java for this but I'm not sure.

fa_jing

07-27-2003, 08:49 PM

7- WD saw the first tape, you didn't. There is another tape that he didn't see either. This is footage shot after the one you saw. Some tournament fights including mine with one of your classmates, as well as your Sifu doing a double sword form and your sifu's brother kicking ass in the fighting.

truewrestler

07-30-2003, 10:36 AM

Well, Shadowboxer PMed me about Grados but I couldn't respond because his box was full... I'll just post here:

hey Shadowboxer,

His footage looked cool but I saw nothing on his site that was sparring. If I missed a clip please let me know but it all looked to be demonstrations.

I am skeptical that his sparring videos would have much resemblence to his demonstration videos...especially the blocking/stopping of strikes. What gets me is: How many Wing Chun practitioners are there in the world? Why have I not seen trapping or blocking, such as his videos displayed, in a competition? Everything in the videos is legal in San Shou and MMA, and in MMA opened fingered gloves are used like he was wearing.

When I have questions like that it is hard for me to be anything other than skeptical. Do you understand my skepticism?

Let me know also how you feel about his clips.

Dan

Shadowboxer wrote on 07-29-2003 11:24 AM:
Hey,

What did you think of those Grados clips from the REAL Kungfu thread? Just curious?

Oso

07-30-2003, 11:01 AM

TW, I'll give my .02 again.

It's the training. Present day kung fu schools tend to be pretty self-indulgent. They train with each other inside the kwoon and maybe w/ brother/sister schools of the same style. Very rarely do they go out and seek other disciplines to test themselves against. If you stay inside 4 walls and only train to 'beat' your own style and only the best fighter in that school, who may not be the teacher, then you don't experience anything resembling 'combat' where your opponent doesn't have any real emotional block against taking your head off.

ok, just part of my thoughts but my radio just yelled at me to be somewhere.

Shadowboxer

07-30-2003, 02:11 PM

TW,

I just watched the clips again twice. I am impressed with his footwork and sensitivity, important elements of KF. He doesn't bounce and is rooted almost all the time. It looks to me that he counters and is one step ahead of the attacks coming at him,specifically the last video where he is dealing with the guy between the stacks of boxes. It also looks like to me that they did include some sparring clips mixed into the movies. He counters and collapses their structure and acheives a superior position where he could be as nasty as he wants(arm breaks,neck breaks,knee breaks, etc.) I am curious if you see this as well? I don't think they were all out sparring but it looked like it was free sparring. I think he had control of his attackers without sacrificing his structure which is also an important element of KF.

As far as your questions go, I don't know how many WC practicioners there are in the world but as Yuanfen will tell you not all the WC out there is good WC.

And, I don't know why you have not seen trapping like he showed in MMA comps. Perhaps the simple answer is because they don't practice it. I think the boxing gloves in San Shou make it impractical but they do use open fingered gloves in Pride/UFC so...??? When I mess around with friends who are moderately resisting ;) it works great.

So I would point to the footwork and his hands as displaying "REAL" Kungfu. Anybody else care to comment?

;)

NorthernMantis

07-30-2003, 04:09 PM

Hey TW what about the vids I posted? I would like to hear some critique too you know.

dezhen2001

07-30-2003, 04:13 PM

just to say: if you get a white screen instead of the movie clip... it means you need the newest quicktime or you need to download a codec to view the compressed movie :)

dawood

truewrestler

07-30-2003, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Hey TW what about the vids I posted? I would like to hear some critique too you know. My previous statement holds true for the videos you posted too. I will be highly skeptical until I see it in sparring. Much of it looked extremely rehearsed... like the tackle counter... but that is just what I took from it.

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/video.html

This is just going to be a rant(you have warned): I wrestled through highschool and the tackle counter he shows will simply not work in a "live" situation. The guy he was demonstrating on actually used his forward foot to stop his momentum, since the counter will not work otherwise. The guy would be on his own ass if an unwilling opponent tackled him and he tried that technique. I for one step to the outside of the forward leg of a mirrored stance, which makes the technique worthless, however if I did step to the inside I would be picking up his forward leg. That would actually be my goal regardless of which way I shoot in and would makes the technique worthless. If a takedown counter is foiled by someone picking up the leg left undefended is not a very good counter.

Oso

07-30-2003, 08:14 PM

I have to agree w/ TW on this one.

NOTHING, moved forward from the attacker. He didn't commit to the attack. Plus it was a crappy single leg.

imo, the reason single and double legs work is because of the commited lunge. Whether the leg(s) get wrapped up or not you still have to deal with the attackers mass. often, if the initial attack is fumbled, you can recover and make a second go of it because you hit him with all your weight.

truewrestler

07-30-2003, 08:43 PM

"Whether the leg(s) get wrapped up or not you still have to deal with the attackers mass."

This isn't often or maybe even usually the case with the single leg (stepping to the outside)... but that isn't important for this discussion :) Either way (forward movement or lifting the leg) the counter wouldn't work.

Oso, is it just me or is the forum for most part more open to grappling, kickboxing, MMA, etc lately?

count

07-30-2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
My previous statement holds true for the videos you posted too. I will be highly skeptical until I see it in sparring. Much of it looked extremely rehearsed... like the tackle counter... but that is just what I took from it.

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/video.html

This is just going to be a rant(you have warned): I wrestled through highschool and the tackle counter he shows will simply not work in a "live" situation. The guy he was demonstrating on actually used his forward foot to stop his momentum, since the counter will not work otherwise. The guy would be on his own ass if an unwilling opponent tackled him and he tried that technique. I for one step to the outside of the forward leg of a mirrored stance, which makes the technique worthless, however if I did step to the inside I would be picking up his forward leg. That would actually be my goal regardless of which way I shoot in and would makes the technique worthless. If a takedown counter is foiled by someone picking up the leg left undefended is not a very good counter.

:)
Are you actually aware of that guys fighting record? His background? Do you know who he is? I wouldn't judge him by some small internet demonstration. I suggest you ask some of these idols you guys have. My guess is they can tell you about this guy fighting. I think Mr. Su can make this stuff work in a "live situation". LOL

Oso

07-31-2003, 03:13 AM

you know, I don't know but it seems like I shoot a single different then it is generally done these days. I need to go check out the local HS this fall and see how it's being taught these days.

I keep my head inside on a single and drive the shoulder into the lower ribs. But, then again, I don't shoot a single too often, never did even in HS. I was a fireman's kinda guy.

as far as the forum being more open, I think so, a little, maybe.

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by count

:)
Are you actually aware of that guys fighting record? His background? Do you know who he is? I wouldn't judge him by some small internet demonstration. I suggest you ask some of these idols you guys have. My guess is they can tell you about this guy fighting. I think Mr. Su can make this stuff work in a "live situation". LOL (****, I just wrote a long response but closed the window while doing something else...very frustrating)

The Gracie's teach ****ty wrestling sometimes and they have good fighting records....?

I was giving my view from my 4+ years of competitive wrestling and learning from and watching better wrestlers than myself. Forward momentum and/or grabbing the legs (the definition of a tackle) would negate this technique. When a tackle negates a tackle counter... I consider the counter worthless. That's like a gun disarm that works perfectly if the guy with the gun doesn't pull the trigger.

Count, please let me know if you have any videos of him fighting... thanks

count

07-31-2003, 08:45 AM

Look for a book published in Japan about the 10 best underground fighters in Japan. When it was done they added another chapter just for him. From what I heard he's beaten most of them.

I appreciate your desire to learn and get better from being around better fighters than yourself. From what I know about Mr. Su, he would appreciate that very much himself. He's been doing that very thing for probably 40 years as opposed to 4 years of high school wrestling. His teachers were among the best in China, Taiwan and Japan. He made a point of seeking the best teachers in the world and putting his ass on the line in underground fights, the likes of which you can only imagine.

I am not defending this guy because he is my teacher or anything like that. He's not. I have met him and felt first hand his ability. I have a huge amount of respect for him or anyone of that skill level. If you can't see it, I'm sure he'd be glad to show you. He's very approachable and loves to have fun.

I'm pretty sure he has some fight video's you can purchase. Some training video's too. I don't own them. But even than, I doubt you'll understand unless you feel it for yourself. That's what I do if I find someone like him. I try them out and beg for punishment. Than you know the truth. All the rest of this chatter is speculation based on your own experience. When you get close to 40 years, let me know.

;)

BAI HE

07-31-2003, 08:46 AM

My hat would be off to anyone that could get
close enough to Master Su to actually wrestle with him.

His fight record is probably not what you think.
I will say two words about his experience:

Yakuza Bodyguard.

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 09:02 AM

I can see his work with the Yakuza is highly documented: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=yakuza+%22master+su%22

...as you can see I haven't had any luck finding an article/info about this. If you have any I would love to learn more!

count, thanks for your feedback

count

07-31-2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by BAI HE
My hat would be off to anyone that could get
close enough to Master Su to actually wrestle with him.

His fight record is probably not what you think.
I will say two words about his experience:

Yakuza Bodyguard.
LOL, those are two words I won't use publically about him. At least not on the record. :D

BAI HE

07-31-2003, 09:04 AM

I see. Yes if I were involved with the less savory elements of society I'd be sure to post it on the internet.

BAI HE

07-31-2003, 09:07 AM

Anyhoo, it's a rumour I've heard many times. Whether true or not
who Knows?

I have heard from may sources that he is as tough as nails.

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 09:15 AM

Did he fight Frank Dux in the Kumite? lol

BAI HE

07-31-2003, 09:17 AM

Hey go ask him yourself! I guarantee you he'll crack your head open. Honest. Really!

count

07-31-2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by truewrestler
Did he fight Frank Dux in the Kumite? lol No, that was Cung Lee.:D

fa_jing

07-31-2003, 09:36 AM

hey master Su has awesome mechanics from what I see. Don't worry about the takedown defense - ok for your repetoire but the standard takedown defenses from grappling arts (sprawl, buckback etc) should be your bread-and butter...

R: How do you feel about the more popular events of today such as the Ultimate Fighting Championships and the prominence of ground fighting?

MS: These events are the true form of martial arts; it's good to see tournaments where fighters from various backgrounds come together. Thanks to likes of Rickson Gracie, standing fighters have been forced to re-evaluate their methodologies.

NorthernMantis

07-31-2003, 05:07 PM

Christopher M

07-31-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
the tackle counter he shows will simply not work in a "live" situation. The guy he was demonstrating on actually used his forward foot to stop his momentum, since the counter will not work otherwise. The guy would be on his own ass if an unwilling opponent tackled him and he tried that technique. I for one step to the outside of the forward leg of a mirrored stance, which makes the technique worthless, however if I did step to the inside I would be picking up his forward leg.

Sounds like Mr. Su did the right thing against his attacker's inside entry, and you have a beef with the attacker's entry, not Mr. Su's response. :confused: While I personally would agree with your comments, are they really consistent for all wrestlers? I've seen plenty of allegedly decent wrestlers go for inside entries on takedowns like that. You haven't? :confused:

Speaking in general, it looks like Mr. Su controlled the distance, faked the guy into entering too quickly, did a level change, disrupted the guy's posture, then went for a head-arm control.

Controlling the distance, level, and posture seem to me like excellent "rules of thumb" for grappling defense. This is distinctly different than the "I hit him in the pressure point when he's charging and he falls down" you often, unfortunately, might hear from people.

For whatever it's [probably not] worth, not only have I done this general tactic successfully myself, but I've seen plenty of others do it as well.

Frankly, so long as the general tactic doesn't seem outrageous, I think you would have to touch hands with something similar before you make this kind of proclamation. There's been plenty of CMA types here remarking about standard BJJ moves the same way you've remarked about this, and it tends to be generally because they've simply never touched hands with a BJJ practitioner. They tend not to understand the less overt aspects of a BJJ technique (like how you position yourself and use your structure and your opponents) that make it work. Do you think you might be capable of the same thing?

If you've got access to MMA.TV archives, there have been a couple threads about him there by people who've touched hands with him, and they've all commented on him quite favorably.

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 08:24 PM

There's been plenty of CMA types here remarking about standard BJJ moves the same way you've remarked about this, and it tends to be generally because they've simply never touched hands with a BJJ practitioner. I guess what he did is illegal in amateur wrestling... oh wait, its not :p

I only commented on this technique because takedown defense is something I'm familiar with...actually takedowns are what I'm MOST familiar with. I stand by what I said... if you actually perform a takedown/tackle (forward momentum and/or grabbing legs) the tackle counter won't work. I have nothing against jamming a takedown and foot sweeping. I just don't think what he shows is possible in a real situation...it is too specific to knowing exactly what your opponent does.

Why does he spread his arms so wide when the guy shoots in? I have "accidentally" headbutted people when I shoot in and they lower their level. What is keep the shooter from banging into his head...assumming the tackle is a tackle (forward momentum).

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 08:33 PM

"I've seen plenty of allegedly decent wrestlers go for inside entries on takedowns like that. You haven't?"

I personally do not step inside a mirrored stance. I shoot a single leg to the outside. I double leg/high crotch to an opposite stance. Like I said though... inside or out the forward leg would be wrapped up and/or there would be forward momentum.

This is just how I feel about this technique.

Christopher M

07-31-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
I personally do not step inside a mirrored stance. I shoot a single leg to the outside.

Yes, I agree completely. But that's not true of every wrestler; and at least not consistently true of every decent wrestler. And it's not true of the footage in question. Surely we can only critique Mr. Su for reacting on what he was given, and not something else?

Like I said though... inside or out the forward leg would be wrapped up and/or there would be forward momentum.

There was forward momentum. This is why Mr. Su had to check before going for a control.

I just don't think what he shows is possible in a real situation...it is too specific to knowing exactly what your opponent does.

If you mean you would disagree with teaching this technique as a universal defense against takedowns, I agree. But what makes you think that's what's being done?

Why does he spread his arms so wide when the guy shoots in?

It looks to me like he does it a moment before the guy shoots in, and he does it as a "fake" to get the guy to respond in that manner.

What is keep the shooter from banging into his head

Reestablishing a guard before the distance is crossed; which, it seems to me, he did.

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 09:20 PM

Christopher... I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I see this technique as being one of those "if he does this, then do this this and this" type of techniques... in other words, something that can not be used in a sparring situation but looks great for a demonstration.

truewrestler

07-31-2003, 09:28 PM

Well since I have agreed to disagree on that... do you think this could actually be pulled off in sparring? http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/video/m_su_form_applied.WMV

Christopher M

07-31-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
I see this technique as being one of those "if he does this, then do this this and this" type of techniques...in other words, something that can not be used in a sparring situation

Ok... but isn't this a comment on his teaching style, rather than on the technique? And if so, how do you know about his teaching style?

And if this is your critique, then do you also feel BJJ cannot be used in a sparring situation? Surely the bulk of their techniques follow the logic of "if he does this, then do this this and this"?

do you think this could actually be pulled off in sparring?

He does quite alot there, which do you mean?