chan and wck

[Phenix]

Lately, I got some emails questioning about Chan and WCK and Shao Lin.... Heaven, earth, man......
This give raise for posting this post.

My view on chan ... is as the following.

Chan's most important key is to give up "self" as the center of one or the universe or cosmos

If this first key cannot be accepted totally and wholely, then , disregard of what one's reason or theory or practice or meditation, or train from famous monks, or remember or the Koan......... the cultivation will not succeed, period.

There is only either one use "self" as center or "no self" as center nothing in between. Thus, Chan called for a totally give up the "self" as the center.

Since, mostly, we as normal human being by default, we are using "self" as center. such as my body, my idea, my home, my lineage of WCK, my money, my sifu......my race... my country. That is just the way we are and we need to accept this before we can go a further step to change the center to "no self" from "self" if we choose to. Can't jump from Self to no self as center before we accept who we are and work on it.



The second Key is to accept that every occurance/phenomenan (sp) is impermanent.

Thus, Chan called for give up of attachment or taking things so serious that thinking it will be always being the same way.


With acceptance of the Keys above, one immune from hope and fear. since one doesn't recognize a "self" as one, and since existance is impermant so there is no permenant status to cling on as a reference. ect.

As an example, One gives up anger because what is the reason to get angry? "by who's standard one let's one's thought sequencially link up and run amok to give raise to anger ?"

Not to mention, it is silly to think about the Southern Shao Lin Chan Monks would develop martial art the advance type to become rebels and killing Qing.

So what is Chan go to do with Shao Lin buddhist monks?
With "no self" Qing is living being. Han is living being. All political chaos is just a phenomenon of impermenent. All shall past, why creating cause and effect by make believe Han is me, Qing is you. You killed my people. We are permanent in resenment..... Ok then contionus to create a loop of killing karma. you kill me and I kill you..... on and on and on similar to the energize Bunny. Is that the mission of Buddhism?
Those who think like these; with "self" and taking every thing as Permanent will suffer.

So, what is Chan got todo with WCK? Well, when one practiced SLT for example, if one doesn't cling to "oh am I doing this properly?" " oh I am the best in SLT", "oh Tan Sau has to be like this permanently and absolutely." but accept things and let things flow. Then, that is very Chan. as it was said " as it is". On the other hand, when one accepted not using "self" as reference...
Then, disregard of in sitting meditation or daily life everything is Chan. certainly, as a human, the transformation taking time and process. But if the keys are not accepted. there is no way to overcome the anger or greed or ignorance....

Next time when one is in anger state watch for the source of the anger, not trying to reason with it. See how from no where the anger arise. Certainly, one needs lots of training in Awareness and concentration or Vissapana and samantha but then every one can learn. A thought is just a thought it will raise up and fade. But we just create more after one started. EVeryone tries to be peace but we don't know the way how to be peaceful. Thus, we study Chan.


But, Until one really really accept the keys above .. most 99% of fighting thoughts raise from the use of "self" as center of universe. most broken of the five precept thoughts raise from self center. (Next time when dinne in chinese restorant, ask love sweat sour pork? barbeque Chicken? Kong Pao Chicken? why is that :D self? )
so, there is no way out if one continous to use "self" as the center. It is great for Website and everyone get creative to discuss about chan. But, IMHO, if the discussion is about scratching each other's back and not get into the bottom line. Those who really likes to know about Chan will be just cycling in the paradigm of self trying to understand the paradigm of No self.
So what if we learn more about sunyata, lokitasvara....samadhi.. sitting meditation in mountain and due to the tranquil and silence of the natural thinking that is chan.....those will not contribute much when things are really chaos daily. and SLT will not progress... but confused between paradigm.


As it said in the song of enlightement,

True is it true?
False is it false?
Missing a hair bread loosing a thousand mile.

That Hair bread is about the platform has to be based on "no-self" center and not attaching to things too deeply ( not that one is not serious) because phenomenon is impemament. With this one will live fully in the present or this instant. instead of living in multi time Zone. such as when doing SLT, the thought is living in multi time zone----- " how does my sifu did last week?" what does the Kuen Kuit said in 1850? why yesterday my Tan is not like this..... what time is hongkong now when sigong does his SLT :D

Can't practice Chan without accepting the above keys and let the past melt. One can no longer live like before anymore, once choosen the Chan's way. Is that for you? will you willing to give up the flanboyan dream of become the invicinble martial art star or the Greatest gate keeper? will you willing to give up Kong Pao Chicken also? :D


Just my crazy two cents. I don't know much about Chan. :D
so you can disagree big time. that is ok.

[PaulH]

I think you overlook a fundamental self - the You principle. I may choose to forget myself to be you. This happens a lot with newly weds at least during their honeymoon. It balances out a little bit to become the US phenomenon especially when the children are born. What I figure is I am me all along but I change to you when I want to know all about you, and then others if time permitted. Absense of self make other hearts grow fonder. There is no such thing as no self. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Paul,

NIce try. good post.


good to chose to forget oneself. even if one still has self.

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

I like a thing small enough that I can hold on to. Everyone can do it everyday and anywhere if they choose to. It is our deliberate and conscious act of laying aside our needs, desires, and even our life for the goods of others that made us so human.


Regards,

[Savi]

I think that first - one must understand Self, and this can most certainly be a very difficult thing to do.

Second, one must understand their relationship to the universe.

Third, then one can understand that they do not "exist" as a seperate entity because they are part of the universe itself.

"It is like a finger pointing to the moon."

[Phenix]

I think that first - one must understand Self, and this can most certainly be a very difficult thing to do.--S

Great start.
Sure not easy. to accept reality is even hard. -HS


Second, one must understand their relationship to the universe. --S

This is nice and logically yes.
However, this is where Chan travel into different direction and 99.9% of people side track.
With a "self" no matter how one understand their relationship. It still based on a "self" as the reference of universe.


So why not let go the "self" and living as as a part of universe?
With "self" based it is call differentiating mind. with "no self" it is called the wonderfull contemplation wisdom.IMHO. HS


Third, then one can understand that they do not "exist" as a seperate entity because they are part of the universe itself. -S

This is still rely on "self" based reference. "understand" and "living" are two very different things. Understand about breathing and breathing is different thing.
Thus, there is meditation and raise from meditation. How can one achieve unity within the state of silence of meditation and the state of busy chaos living? can't.

A baby just breath... - not understand breathing. HS


"It is like a finger pointing to the moon." -S

For thousands of years, the buddha and patriachs of the past and present have had lay down the map clearly and precisely.

It is the follower not willing to make a decision to let go the "self" centered paradigm because most think "fame, money, business, Winning, country, race..... lineage" are real and permenent.
Not to realize, when one closed one's eyes one can bring nothing but the karma. similar to one cannot bring one's credit card into dream but one brings one's like and dislike and way of thinking into dream.

Some even think the understand of Chan will be able to make one's "self" based paradigm to become stronger then others. Not to realzed that Chan is about shifting paradigm so that one no longer suffer and not about making the "self" based paradigm stronger.

Even seing the moon is useless if one doesn't believe moon is real and still continous to think how to use Chan to strenghtern one's "self" center paradigm. IMHO. -HS


If one decided to shift the paradigm. then there is no problem to take all the precepts of Surangama. If one continous believe in the "self" based paradigm, then one can't even take one single precept. Because, one will asked ---- what's wrong with figthing and killing ? since I need to defend myself.:D

Gate Gate paragate parasem gate bodhi svaha.
A Cross the sea of suffering and achieve the wisdom, but then, if there is no Boddhi Citta --- let go the "self", one is only viewing the otherside of the sea but live in this side of the shore-- amd stay suffering when the discussion of the story of the other side ended.

disclaimer: Believe me on your own risk. If you become a monk. like the bullet proof monk. your wife can't sue me.:D


Try this,
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=4896
and you will forget about the legend of ShaoLin figthing fighting.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

I like a thing small enough that I can hold on to. Everyone can do it everyday and anywhere if they choose to. It is our deliberate and conscious act of laying aside our needs, desires, and even our life for the goods of others that made us so human.


Regards,

I don't like even to hold a small thing. If I have to hold on a small thing. The only small thing I like to hold on to is Om MaNY Padme Hum. the rest are too complicated.;)

[canglong]

So, what is Chan got todo with WCK?

Everything and nothing of course if you truly understand chan.

[Ernie]

If I have to hold on a small thing. The only small thing I like to hold on to is

if you keep holding on to your sall thing won't you go blind:)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
If I have to hold on a small thing. The only small thing I like to hold on to is

if you keep holding on to your sall thing won't you go blind:)


Keep holding on to your GPA otherwise you will be lost.
Keep holding on to your GBA and play the Yugioh game.
Keep holding on to your "self" and have fun suffering. Hey it feels good. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong


Everything and nothing of course if you truly understand chan.

Is Chan a teaching to realize No Self or an advertisment to show about following the fashion on reading new age Dao books? :D

[canglong]

is this :D your chan or just your answer for everything?

[Savi]

Can you answer this: how can someone understand "No Self" if they do not have a true concept of "Self" in the first place? It is human nature to begin with self as you also mentioned.

Understand the basic nature of all things first, then harmonize with it.

[PaulH]

Chan, no self and non-attachment to things is inherent in all non-living things. I always say a rock is pure Chan as it knows no sufferings because it has no self due to its superior naturally endowned enlightenment state. Ha! Ha! Human beings, on the other hand, cannot live like a rock. Can one live in a world of no right and wrong, or in an impersonal and indifferent cosmos? Thus so far I stubbornly hold on to a little of my"self" in the face of an increasingly cold and impersonal universe.

Regards,

[Savi]

Originally posted by PaulH
Can one live in a world of no right and wrong in an impersonal and indifferent cosmos? Thus so far I stubbornly hold on to a little of my"self" in the face of an increasingly cold and impersonal universe.

Regards,
Hi Paul,
1. We have to understand both cause and effect (karma) as well as the consequences of all actions and reactions. In a world of no right and no wrong there is also a right and a wrong. What defines the right and wrong of killing? Necessity, not preference. That leads into a more scientific approach to understanding reality, and thus, easier to accept living in an "impersonal and indifferent cosmos".

2. An "increasingly cold and impersonal universe" is a very emotionally based comment and has nothing to do with the universe at all, only your view of it. The universe only consists of Time, Space, and Energy. Emotions are a reality of our own existence.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi
Can you answer this: how can someone understand "No Self" if they do not have a true concept of "Self" in the first place? It is human nature to begin with self as you also mentioned.

Understand the basic nature of all things first, then harmonize with it.


Does a CPU MUST runs Window operating system in order to activate it's machine language exercution?

Certainly, for learning, it is great to have a Machine Language emulator in Window environment to understand Machine language. But, emulation is an emulation.


Who understand? What is the basic nature? when everything is impermenant. Thus, it is about let go not about learning more based on one's "I" center paradigm. it is about emptying not about to collect more things...

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
is this :D your chan or just your answer for everything?


Chan teaching is a teaching. A method of persuing buddha nature.
Thus, it can be describe precise and concise what is Chan teaching.

Everything is everything. since Everything is impermenant, Thus, answer for everything cannot be folumated and catagolized permanently but based on situation and condition. And, there might have or might not have an answer.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi

Hi Paul,
1. We have to understand both cause and effect (karma) as well as the consequences of all actions and reactions. In a world of no right and no wrong there is also a right and a wrong. What defines the right and wrong of killing? Necessity, not preference. That leads into a more scientific approach to understanding reality, and thus, easier to accept living in an "impersonal and indifferent cosmos".

2. An "increasingly cold and impersonal universe" is a very emotionally based comment and has nothing to do with the universe at all, only your view of it. The universe only consists of Time, Space, and Energy. Emotions are a reality of our own existence.


Great logic.
However, is it "it" or is it "it" based on "I"?




"The universe only consists of Time, Space, and Energy."

There is "no a thing", where will it collect dust? ----- 6th patriach.

Universe .... Time, space, energy..... lots and lots of space to colect dust and dust and dust.....

[Phil Redmond]

One can't exist without the other. There is inherent yin in yang and vice versa.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
One can't exist without the other. There is inherent yin in yang and vice versa.

How to get from One to Zero?

Hey Joy, speak up! since Indian explore the needs of Zero.....

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
Does a CPU MUST runs Window operating system in order to activate it's machine language exercution?

Certainly, for learning, it is great to have a Machine Language emulator in Window environment to understand Machine language. But, emulation is an emulation.

Who understand? What is the basic nature? when everything is impermenant. Thus, it is about let go not about learning more based on one's "I" center paradigm. it is about emptying not about to collect more things...
1. Really? Ok. You seem to have the conception that I think the universe begins with me. Let that go buddy.

2. Once you understand yourself, you can let go of the "I" paradigm as you put it and begin again by understanding the relationship of the universe and yourself.

3. Everything that is impermanent consists of things that are permanent: Time, Space, and Energy. And sure Chan is about Emptiness, but it means nothing and can't be appreciated nor fully understood without experiencing Fullness.

4. I have no idea how your example of computers relates to me if that is what you are trying to do. Perhaps you could elaborate on that more, and tell me what you are really thinking instead of using an example.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
Universe .... Time, space, energy..... lots and lots of space to colect dust and dust and dust.....
Yes Hendrik, there certainly is a lot of dust in the universe. We call it space (matter). You know, Arizona has a lot of dust too. Wow, experiencing reality...

[PaulH]

Hi Savi,

I'm only human. Like a "karmic" sailboat driven by strong gusts of passion but steered firmly by reason, I boldly chart the universe. The world is a stage and I just act my role.

Regards,

[Phenix]

1. Really? Ok. You seem to have the conception that I think the universe begins with me. Let that go buddy.---S

the universe according to John and the Simsons family are a totally different universe , John life and simsons life, john WCK and simsons WCK, john favoriet food and simsons
's favoriet food.... right? -HS



2. Once you understand yourself, you can let go of the "I" paradigm as you put it and begin again by understanding the relationship of the universe and yourself. ---S



" The past mind cannot be hold permenent, the future mind cannot be hold permenent, the present mind cannot be hold permenant" -- diamond sutra

Which "yourself" have to be understood?
which universe? --HS



3. Everything that is impermanent consists of things that are permanent: Time, Space, and Energy. And sure Chan is about Emptiness, but it means nothing and can't be appreciated nor fully understood without experiencing Fullness.-S


Chan is about emptying "I". Then, the fish can see air as space. the bird can sees water as space.

If the fist continous insist on its Time, Space, and energy. then it always is a fish. :D





4. I have no idea how your example of computers relates to me if that is what you are trying to do. Perhaps you could elaborate on that more, and tell me what you are really thinking instead of using an example. :D --S


Is computer a part of universe?:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi

Yes Hendrik, there certainly is a lot of dust in the universe. We call it space (matter). You know, Arizona has a lot of dust too. Wow, experiencing reality...

To a dead Hendrik or a dreaming Hendrik where is the dust?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi Savi,

I'm only human. Like a "karmic" sailboat driven by strong gusts of passion but steered firmly by reason, I boldly chart the universe. The world is a stage and I just act my role.

Regards,


I heard Diaz's hot picture is on the web --- that "I" is a problem glue me to karmic and passion... and drunk.....:D

"I" loves Diaz's innocent smile. -- that "I" make my universe but you might loves Demi more! ... well, another sleepless in Seatle. :D

[Savi]

You see Hendrik, the thing is that with the WC I am studying, it is not based on an individual. It does not begin with one person's personal kung fu skill or experience. It does not begin with Yim Wing Chun and her infamous skills, nor any other singular figure.

The WC I am studying does not begin nor is it based in the "I" paradigm.

It is based harmonizing with reality and things that are practical. Chan is everywhere in WC. Maybe not in ones you are familiar with or you can identify with, but it is everywhere in the one I practice.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
the universe according to John and the Simsons family are a totally different universe , John life and simsons life, john WCK and simsons WCK, john favoriet food and simsons
's favoriet food.... right? -HS
Those are "I" paradigms, so yes you are right.


Originally posted by Phenix
" The past mind cannot be hold permenent, the future mind cannot be hold permenent, the present mind cannot be hold permenant" -- diamond sutra

Which "yourself" have to be understood?
which universe? --HS
Chan is about here and now. Nothing more. You have so many questions about past , present and future. Are you lost Hendrik? Here and Now buddy...


Originally posted by Phenix
Chan is about emptying "I". Then, the fish can see air as space. the bird can sees water as space.

If the fist continous insist on its Time, Space, and energy. then it always is a fish. :D
The highest level of Buddhism is the Buddha. The buddha is not a person, but a state of existence. But to reach that level, because we are human beings, we begin with "I". That is the process. Can you really be empty of things you do not understand? if you don't understand it, how do you know if you are empty of it? HMMM....


Originally posted by Phenix
4. I have no idea how your example of computers relates to me if that is what you are trying to do. Perhaps you could elaborate on that more, and tell me what you are really thinking instead of using an example. :D --S

Is computer a part of universe?:D
Answering my statement with a question? Most obviously a computer is part of the universe, but it is still a computer. You have some very funny questions for such a deep and meaningful discussion. Wow Hendrik, I am so intrigued by your astuteness!

[Phenix]

Chan is about here and now. Nothing more. You have so many questions about past , present and future. Are you lost Hendrik? Here and Now buddy...---S


past, present, and future are time right? a apart of the universe right? :D



The highest level of Buddhism is the Buddha.---S

Anuktarasammyaksambodhi means "ultimate real equal impartial wisdom" who is highest who is lowest? --HS

The buddha is not a person.--S


There is Shakamuni Buddha exist in the history of mankind. He is as real as Diaz or Demi :D. --HS

But to reach that level, because we are human beings, we begin with "I". That is the process. -S

Good starts -HS



Can you really be empty of things you do not understand? if you don't understand it, how do you know if you are empty of it? HMMM....--S

Simson doesn't smoke pot and doesn't understand pot.
How do simson knows he is free from pot? --HS


Answering my statement with a question? Most obviously a computer is part of the universe, but it is still a computer. --S

You add discrimination list to your list within your universe? how about R2D2? Harry Potter, Charles angers, Simsons' family? :D --HS




You have some very funny questions for such a deep and meaningful discussion. Wow Hendrik, I am so intrigued by your astuteness! --S

Joy, is all Chan monks serious and deep and rigid and proper and righteous and pocker face and wearing a T shirt written "I am Chan monk" similar to CoCo Channel T-shirt.....? --HS

[Phenix]

Ok ready to go back to the retreat....

Savi, get that book from Dilgo Rimpoche. It will help you and your friends...

[Savi]

Thank you for the discussion. I have learned much more about you.

[canglong]

The answers you seek Hendrik are in the wck itself but if you look for those answers inside books, online forums or white crane you will only be left with more questions.

[kj]

These debates on egolessness slay me. :D

Regards,
- kj

[Rolling_Hand]

<<Chan teaching is a teaching. A method of persuing buddha nature.
Thus, it can be describe precise and concise what is Chan teaching.>>HS

--What is Ch'an teaching? Where is Ch'an? Keep walking, though there's no place to get to. Don't try to see through the distance.--RH

<<If the fist continous insist on its Time, Space, and energy. then it always is a fish.>>HS

--A fist has five fingers, and a fish has one tail. Hendrik, when will you drop a habit that has kept you from reaching your potential?--RH

[PaulH]

Well, the fireworks have been most illuminating and fun! I thank this forum to give me a chance to reach out and crush some self. Ha! Ha!

[reneritchie]

No you're not!

Am too!

Yes he is!

You're not either!

Yo mama!

Nanynany...

[Savi]

You know KJ, RH, and PaulH, I really do try and make friends with everyone and after things have been said and done you do make me smile! Laugh alittle bit too, I might add.

Roger, go and visit www.hfy108.com there are many friends awaiting your presence! You truly are welcome there, I hope to see you there. Everyone else too of course! There are private as well as public forums there.

Peace everyone...

[burnsypoo]

Huen Lop?

[Geezer]

Hendrik, aren't there different types of Buddhist teachings????

Sheldon

[kj]

Originally posted by Savi
You know KJ, RH, and PaulH, I really do try and make friends with everyone and after things have been said and done you do make me smile! Laugh alittle bit too, I might add.

Laughter is good medicine. :)

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

LMAO@BP

[Savi]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi Savi,

I'm only human. Like a "karmic" sailboat driven by strong gusts of passion but steered firmly by reason, I boldly chart the universe. The world is a stage and I just act my role.

Regards,
You're an OK dude Paul. Keep on sailing...

[Geezer]

Tibetan Buddhism:
A mixture of Buddhism, Tantrism and the ancient Bon religion of Tibet. They have a vast collection of scriptures (tantras), which describe powerful rituals. Their teachers (Lamas) are said to be reincarnations of holy teachers who lived in earlier times.

The spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists is the Dalai Lama who is believed to be the reincarnation of Avalokiteshvara.



Zen Buddhism:
Developed from CH’an a school of Chinese Buddhism formed in the Seventh century from a blend of Taoism (Chinese philosophy outlined in the TaoTeChing). It aims is to achieve harmony with all that is by pursuing inaction and effortless) and Mahayana teachings. The school stressed experience rather than learning. One of the heroes of Zen is the fierce – looking Indian monk Boddhidharma who brought Buddhism to China.

Absolute faith is placed in a person’s own inner being. Zen came to Japan in the 13th century five centuries after the orthodox forms of Buddhism. It appealed because of its emphasis on the uselessness of words and the insistence of action without thought.

Zen teaches the possibility of enlightenment in the here and now, unlike the tendency that have developed in other strands of Buddhism as far off goals. It teaches that enlightenment is a spontaneous event, totally independent of concepts, techniques or rituals. Zen Monks are based on doing things, learning through experience.


Pure Land Buddhism:
Buddhist sect founded by a Chinese monk called Hui Yuan (AD 334 –416). It focuses on one particular scripture which tells of a living Buddha who inhabits another world system, a far off place known as the Pure Land. The Buddha is Amitabha and his followers believe that through faith they will be transported there after death.


Nichiren Buddhism:
A Japanese Buddhist reformer whose teachings are based on the Mahayana Sutra (scripture) known as the Lotus Sutra which contained the ultimate truth and that it could be compressed into a sacred formula NAMO MYOHO RENGE KYO (homage to the Lotus of the wonderful law).

The central practice of Nichiren Buddhism is reciting the mantra of the namo myoho rengye kyo. Nichiren denounced all other forms of Buddhism and when the Mongols threatened Japan preached a fiery nationalism, urging the nation to convert to true Buddhism.



http://www.racialjustice.org.uk/Types%20of%20Buddhism.htm

Sheldon

[PaulH]

Savi,

Best wishes to you as well. It has been good knowing you.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix
Ok ready to go back to the retreat....

Savi, get that book from Dilgo Rimpoche. It will help you and your friends...
OK, Hendrik,

Go back into the retreat, but stay out of Bhutan. :D

Machine language analogies? That's a reach for a metaphor. But I guess we are on a machine dependent medium.

Do infants know a self? If so, do they know "other?"

I am dreaming about dreaming, but then some of us have to work, I guess. :p Not me, of course, but some. :D

[yuanfen]

Its near impossible to have a serious discussion in a net forum.
We are not dealing with specific techniques. Hendrik began this thread by calling for a discussion on Chan and WCK- not an easy task. It is possible to stay within the fighting aspects of wck-
even there -there is confusion. When we move to issues of philosophy the Tower of Babel appears quickly.

Hendrik and I do NOT come from the same lineage and I think that there are differences in some of the details of our WCK.
But in attempting to follow this thread- it's clear to me that Hendrik's discussion of Chan is strong and reliable. Take his comment on no-dust...which some appeared to ridicule. Hendrik is expecting too much from the reader- but that comment is straight out of mainstream Chan- Hui Neng and the Southern Chan .

Geezer- dictionary definitions of different schools wont do.
Tibetan Buddhism is not Chan. And Nichiren and Rinzai lack the purity of Dogen's Shobygenzo. Dogen's shoto zen people objected to Japanese militarism--- the others gave in to militarism and violence.

Given the likelihood of straying of understanding ,Chan developed the patriarch system and its
disciplined approach and phiolosophy.

Epistemology is the key to understanding the confusion.
Chan at its purest- Boddhidharma, Hui Neng, Dogen etc-
has in common the entityless way of thinking- no permanent substances, no soul, no self-no dust. There is only emptiness-sunyata. In zazen, and dhyana- differentiations of self, dust etc vanish as permanent entities.Thats the proof. Try it.Even in Einstein- Time- space are not absolutes- they are relative to frames of reference.

In order to avoid the other danger of solipsism we must not mistake ourselves as illusions--- we are temporary karmic gatherings of dust. Chan experience points out the common mistake is to assume that any aspect of that dust---psychological, material, chemical, electrical is permanent.

Chan empiricism and direct experience are not easy matters- thats why key texts- surangama, lankavatara- point of the fallacies of undisciplined observarion and opinions. Chan is not an ideology -its actually a decluttering of ideologies and dogmatism.

A Chan approach moves one away from techniques, ego, violence and aggression and towards the conquest of the self. You cannot give out Chan martial arts sashes, belts or trophies.

Saying that Chan favors a specific martial art is like saying in Western terms that "God" is on the side of the St Louis Rams or
The Oakland Raiders!!

[Ernie]

Tower of Babel

thank good for mindless tv sitcoms to fill the void in peoples life
or else we would all be caught up in this tired old dialogue that that generations of dead people thought up to give there lifes meaning during those long empty nights before we were blessed with the idiot box :D

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake me up when we get anywhere near the the 21st century and becoming a better fighter , training nutrition , anything that comes near the word ''exciting '' comes along :o
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

the one good thing is i found the cure for my insomnia

[PaulH]

You know, Ernie. Watching TV can be very unhealthy habit. Ernest Hemingway blew his brain out with a shotgun, I think. I understand he said something like he felt like a burned out tube being unplugged from the wall. Too much excitement for me. Are you sure you are not the mischievious Monkey King? Ha! Ha!

[Ernie]

Ernest Hemingway blew his brain out with a shotgun

nah ,
that's from to many cuban cigars and cuba librie's , :D

or maybe he got sucked into a eastern philosophy discussion and had to kill himself just to break the endless loop of you can't be this with out that but if you are that then you don't need this blah blah blah , i can associate with that one .

or maybe he wanted to use a external way of looking at his internal :eek:
and by doing this he became one with his enviroment [ splat ]

[Savi]

The following is a section from one of the most beautiful and most inspiring stories I've ever read. This story was taken from a Zen centre in LA, Calif USA:


"...Once a monk approached Wu-Ming and asked in all earnestness, "In the whole universe, what is it that is most wonderful?" Without hesitation Wu-Ming stuck a cucumber before the monks face and exclaimed, "There is nothing more wonderful than this!" At that the monk crashed through the dualism of subject and object, "The whole universe is pickled cucumber; a pickled cucumber is the whole universe!" Wu-Ming simply chuckled and said, "Stop talking nonsense. A cucumber is a cucumber; the whole universe is the whole universe. What could be more obvious?" The monk, penetrating the perfect phenomenal manifestation of Absolute Truth, clapped his hands and laughed saying, "Throughout infinite space, everything is deliciously sour!"

On another occasion a monk asked Wu-Ming, "The Third Patriarch said, "The Great Way is without difficulty, just cease having preferences." How can you then delight in eating cucumbers, yet refuse to even take one bit of a
carrot?" Wu-Ming said, "I love cucumbers; I hate carrots!" The monk lurched back as though struck by a thunderbolt. Then laughing and sobbing and dancing about he exclaimed, "Liking cucumbers and hating carrots is without difficulty, just cease preferring the Great Way!..."
There are many paradigms that every person goes through. None are attained soley through the cerebral approach, but are accompanied with experience.

We can read all about history and quotes from famous people, but those same people being quoted speak from experience. This is not to be overlooked. I cannot assume to understand all things being discussed unless I have a shared and common experience as the other party(ies) involved in the discussion. Recognizing the proper Context is the key to having prosperous conversations as well. Without recognizing that, any discussion will lead to a waste of time and energy.

One cannot mistake anything to be ONLY permanent or ONLY impermanent. This is also Yin and Yang, the symbol of balance. Time, Space, and Energy are always changing but they are always there. Without them being in perfect balance Life would not be capable of existing. To accept reality is to accept and understand the common denominators of reality itself. What is true in combat, in health, in philosophy, must be true everywhere. That is the balance.


"The great sage of Han-hsin monastery has skillfully demonstrated that the great Tao cannot be confined by doctrines, but is best expounded through harmonious action. Let us profit by the wisdom he has so compassionately shared, and each endeavor to make our every step one that unites heaven and earth in accord with the profound and subtle Tao."

[PaulH]

Well, writers like Ernest belong to "the lost generation" literary movement. They lost faith in the old values and couldn't quite find meaning and purpose in their new existential life either. They like Hemingway found "No exit" just like Paul Sartre said. This is one of the reason that I keep asking people that can they live in such an impersonal and indifferent cosmos.

Regards,

[Ernie]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz huh , what , did you say something , oh guess not zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:)

[PaulH]

Ha! Ha! Nice jut move, but you miss my chain punches. Check your doctor for brain damages. It may be a little too late.

[Ernie]

you know how i feel about chain punches,
eeeemppptyyy motions
just like to many words , when one or two will suffice

good night
wake me up when something ,anything other then a high school essay comes around

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Tibetan Buddhism is not Chan.

Hi Joy,

Thanks. Now I understand Hendrick's reference to Dilgo Rimpoche. (I think) :D


Saying that Chan favors a specific martial art is like saying in Western terms that "God" is on the side of the St Louis Rams or
The Oakland Raiders!!
Go Raiders! Yeah! Now you're talking. :D I'm beginning to appreciate philosophy. :p

Regards,

[yuanfen]

John W sez- answers in brackets:

Go Raiders! Yeah! Now you're talking.


(Sans Gruden? Quo Vadis?))


I'm beginning to appreciate philosophy.

((Careful friend- Bruce Lee claimed he was a phiolosophy "major"-
beginning of a non classical mess-you can throw in some fries,
onion soup and clips from willie wonka's chocolate factory and stimulating cookies too. Philosophy is too serious a business to be left to philosophy majors-non majors too- come to think of it!!))

[Phenix]

..is expecting too much from the reader-



At the time, Mahâsthâmaprâpta, after the complete extinction of the first Tathâgata amongst all those of the name of Bhîshmagargitasvararâga, Tathâgata, &c., endowed with science and conduct, &c. &c., when his true law had disappeared and the counterfeit of the true law was fading; when the reign (of the law) was being oppressed by proud monks, there was a monk, a Bodhisattva Mahâsattva, called Sadâparibhûta. For what reason, Mahâsthâmaprâpta, was that Bodhisattva Mahâsattva called Sadâparibhûta? It was, Mahâsthâmaprâpta, because that Bodhisattva Mahâsattva was in the habit of exclaiming to every monk or nun, male or female lay devotee, while approaching them: I do not contemn you, worthies. You deserve no contempt, for you all observe the course of duty of Bodhisattvas and are to become Tath.âgatas, &c. In this way, Mahâsthâmaprâpta, that Bodhisattva Mahâsattva, when a monk, did not teach nor study; the only thing he did was, whenever he descried from afar a monk or nun, a male or female lay devotee, to approach them and exclaim: I do not contemn you, sisters. You deserve no contempt, for you all observe the course of duty of Bodhisattvas and are to become Tathâgatas, &c. So, Mahâsthâmaprâpta, the Bodhisattva Mahâsattva at that time used to address every monk or nun, male or female devotee. But all were extremely irritated and angry at it, showed him their displeasure, abused and insulted him: Why does he, unasked, declare that he feels no contempt for us? just by so doing he shows a contempt for us. He renders himself contemptible by predicting our future destiny to supreme, perfect enlightenment; we do not care for what is not true. Many years, Mahâsthâmaprâpta, went on during which that Bodhisattva Mahâsattva was being abused, but he was not angry at anybody, nor felt malignity, and to those who, when he addressed them in the said manner, cast a clod or stick at him, he loudly exclaimed from afar: I do not contemn you. Those monks and nuns, male and female lay devotees, being always and ever addressed by him in that phrase gave him the (nick)name of Sadâparibhûta.....
----CHAPTER XIX.
SADÂPARIBHÛTA. Saddharmapundarikasutra

[planetwc]

Does Ch'an teachings advocate secret societies based around the following goals?

1. Assassination of Q'ing officials
2. Violent overthrow of the government
3. Training to take the life of someone
4. Training with knives to kill someone

Or might a secret society/organization have cloaked itself in the mantle of Ch'an all the while teaching and doing things which run explicitely counter to it's principles?

[yuanfen]

David asks:

Does Ch'an teachings advocate secret societies based ......
------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the meantime IMHO-
Chan is an important gate to knowledge- not a detailed programmatic catechism or dogmatic ideology. But the principles are quite clear.

Chan does not "advocate" the things you (David)mention. Chan is
a form of an exitentialist perspective- through self examination
you apply (epistemology is involved on meanings) you honestly apply Chan principles to the "moment" in front of you...not vengeance... not military power. Karma is involved too. Activities have their price.There is no military hierarchy,
no monarchy in Chan.
But Chan is not Jainism and therefore is not necessarily passive in character.
If you attack me -you hurt yourself sort of thing.

But it can coexist witha variety of political and cultural systems
without necessarily approving everything they do.

The same knowledge of the self including the body can be used for helping or hurting.

Analogous- to the healing versus hurting touch. The prayer palm can heal or hurt.

There is no Chan blank "imprimatur" for gangs or secret societies.

Incidentally, the then abbott of Songsan's Shaolin tolerated the local warlord--- for which Chiang Kau Shek's folks lobbed shells into shaolin- as part of kuomintang "nationalism" and anti-warlordism.KMK represented the bigger gang (or warlord)

[Rolling_Hand]

<<The answers you seek Hendrik are in the wck itself but if you look for those answers inside books, online forums or white crane you will only be left with more questions.>>Canglong

Tao is spreading WCK and Ch'an around in the world like a three-year-old spreads peanut butter; thickly, sloppily, eagerly, and if he is in the back shed trying to learn WCK and Ch'an from books, online forums or white crane, he won't even get a taste.

[Savi]

Originally posted by planetwc
Does Ch'an teachings advocate secret societies based around the following goals?

1. Assassination of Q'ing officials
2. Violent overthrow of the government
3. Training to take the life of someone
4. Training with knives to kill someone

Or might a secret society/organization have cloaked itself in the mantle of Ch'an all the while teaching and doing things which run explicitely counter to it's principles?
Religion and Military Objectives are two seperate things. Here is a recent article written by my Sigung and Sifu about Shaolin Monks and Military.

http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/Monk%20Soldiers.htm

[Phenix]

In one of the lecture of Hsu Yun, the patriach of Chan of early to mid 1900, Hsu Yun brought up the Cause and Effect of killing and the so-called Monk sodiers.

According to this lecture, Hsu Yun mentions the Ming's Emperor politically used the Monk Soldiers ... continous on up to early 1900's boxer rebelion era, the destroy of Christian churchs by Lama, who were Qing's Monk Solders. And, later, when the Soldiers of Western ally capture BeiJing , the Temple of These Lama Monk solders were destroyed and Monk Killed....

Any emperor wants to form a "martial monks" as his body guard is the emperor's choice, and any monks wants to join the party to creat killing karma that is personal choice.

Chan is about no -self. Killing is about created killing karma. Personal choice is about free will, one is free to choose what is one's future. They are not the samething.


Hsu Yun gave the lecture above to urge people not to commit Killing karma, for who commit killed will be killed. One doesn't has to go into Chan's teaching. Even basic buddhism teaching teaches compassionate.


Reality is not from mis-knowing.

Reality of CHan is from Gautama Buddha, Kasyapa..Ananda.. Damo.... Hui Neng.... Takuan.... Hsu Yun.... and all the patriacs of past and present.


The seals from Buddha are " all phenomenon is impermanent,....
all phenomenon is empty and devoid from self existing..."

From No-self or emptiness paradigm rises compassionate. Thus, the boddhisatvas can helping others without care about him/herself.

From No-Self to Killing, it has gone a long way. Is this Chan? Buddhism? or it is a Killing karma waiting down in the road to lead one to samsara?


Whatever your will is, remember no-self. that is the key to get out of samsara, The key to unfettered Mind. That is the present from the buddhas.

Asked Takuan Soho, He might smile.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087011851X/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/103-0100273-3570225?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link

Certainly, one is free to creat his own believe still called it Chan. And, that Chan is not this Chan. Thus, there is not much to talk about that Chan because I don't know about that Chan.

[yuanfen]

Good post Hendrik-

good distinctions
1. Between political use of self proclaimed monks and
Chan discipline.

2. Good distinction between Chan and "lama" monks who worked for the Qing.

The mind to mind transmission that you outlined is pretty clear cut. I think that you responded well without personal sniping.

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,

Thanks.

I guess the bottom line is to make everyone great and proceed. It is not about win or lose. It is not about power of lineage but grace. It is not about anger and hate but compassionate.

The key to enter the unfettered mind is no self. IMHO, since only after no-self one will not stop the mind as in Takuan's book above. otherwise, we abiding in "I"... further it relates to the paragraphs of ----The interval into which not even a hair can be entered, and the action of spark and stone. in The unfettred mind book.


One usually cling or abiding or stop or reference at the "I" paradigm which is similar to the origin point of a x y z coordinate with "I" is the origin point. To be free and flow... this Mis-knowing coordinate must go. Understanding about the Origin point of the x y and z axis (I), understanding the x y z axis ( time space and universe) , and graphing a function or fomular (the superior technics.......teaching) in this x y z coordinate doesn't work well . Since once the "I" original form with the x y and z or the time space. one is abiding or trap in this coordinate. Thus, this is a universe based on "I" or a collective of "I". That is not chan.

Chan is about mind with no place to abide. Not about create a coordinate, abide at the origin as the Truth, and taking the function or formula in the coordinate as the ultimate advance martial art.



NOw, what is the releationship between Chan and WCK? The not abiding, the no self, the iimmovable wisdom, samething with different name.



Chan doesn't prevent but support one to achieve advance art. However, Chan request no abiding, even to "I". only when that is "known" one know chan.


Ofcause, as said, in the unfettered mind book, --"Although there occasionally are people who do understand, it doesn't often happen that they act accordingly... it is doubltful that they understand it in depth. " That person can be Hendrik.

So, May be read those writting from the patriach from Hui Neng to Takuan to Hsu Yun to even Patrul Rinpoche or Atisha maha guru.... and find out for yourself what is the path to libration what is the path to samsara. Your choiced. Free will.

[Rolling_Hand]

Ch'an...
When you look for it, you cannot see it.
When you listen for it, you cannot hear it.
Nobody, including the supreme count, knows what Ch'an is.

Ch'an...
Did the Buddhas feel they were the authors and inventors of their Ch'an and ideas?
Or that their Ch'an and ideas were coming through them?

Hm...Om mani peme hum...

[Rolling_Hand]

Religion and Military Objectives are two seperate things. Here is a recent article written by my Sigung and Sifu about Shaolin Monks and Military.

http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentart...%20Soldiers.htm

------------------------------------------

Savi & Geezer,

Good post!

Got it, thanks, later!

Roger Rollinghand

[canglong]

good distinctions
1. Between political use of self proclaimed monks and
Chan discipline.


I have to disagree because when you try to make distinctions of this kind you implant self subjectivism which is counter to your own argument.


I have to agree with Rolling_hand stop looking for cha'n.



Ch'an...
When you look for it, you cannot see it.
When you listen for it, you cannot hear it.
Nobody, including the supreme count, knows what Ch'an is.

[PaulH]

"NOw, what is the releationship between Chan and WCK? The not abiding, the no self, the iimmovable wisdom, samething with different name. "

The search for mystical Chan and WCK for pagans like me become more and more a legendary quest for the Holy Grail and King Arthur. For years, the kingdom have been prosperous until its king was bewitched and the land was laid to waste. The king had forgotten himself and resorted to send his errant knights on their perilous quests in search for the miraculous cure to heal him and his ailing kingdom. One young knight made it back alive and the King remembered... The kingdom was saved. All of this is fantastically documented in "Excalibur". What exactly did the Holy Grail do to the sick King? I believe it told him the truth about himself and that is what set him free. He was King Arthur fully regaining his former self. The path of liberation must come back to the fundamental examination of who one really is.

Regards,

[Phenix]

"Ch'an...
When you look for it, you cannot see it.
When you listen for it, you cannot hear it.
Nobody, including the supreme count, knows what Ch'an is."-----


There is an "I" before you. then all then the mind stop/abiding and assumption starts... the coordinate being drawn...... the universe begin..... :)




"Ch'an...
Did the Buddhas feel they were the authors and inventors of their Ch'an and ideas?
Or that their Ch'an and ideas were coming through them?" ----


Since NO BODY knows about Chan as in the above statement asked who? :)





"Om mani peme hum... " --------


OK you asked for it.
Avalokitesvara Boddhistava is here! :D


Avalokitesvara, the Bodhisattva of compassion, doing deep Prajna Paramita, clearly saw that the five skandhas are EMPTY. thus transcending misfortune and suffering.

O Rolling Hand,
form is no other than emptiness, emptiness is no other than form. Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness is exactly form. Feeling, thought, volition, and consciousness are likewise like this. O Rolling Hand, remember that Dharma is fundamentally emptiness :D. No birth, no death. Nothing is defiled, nothing is pure. Nothing can increase, nothing can decrease. Hence: in emptiness, no form, no feeling, no thought, no volition, no consciousness; no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no seeing, no hearing, no smelling, no tasting, no touching, no thinking; no world of sight, no world of consciousness; no ignorance and no end of ignorance; no old age and death and no end to old age and death. No suffering, no craving, no extinction, no path; no wisdom, no attainment.



:D Indeed, there is nothing to be attained; the Bodhisattva relies on Prajna Paramita with no abide and no obstacle in the mind. No abide and obstacle, therefore no fear. Far beyond upside down mis-know views, at last Nirvana. Past, present, and future, all Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, rely on Prajna Paramita and therefore reach the most supreme enlightenment. :D





Therefore know: Prajna Paramita is the greatest Dharani, the brightest Dharani, the highest Dharani, the incomparable Dharani. It completely clears all suffering. This is the truth, not a lie. So set forth the Prajna Paramita Dharani. Set forth this Dharani and say:

GATE GATE PARA GATE PARA SAM GATE, BODHI SVAHA. Heart Sutra. - Gone, gone, gone to the other shore; landed at the other shore. O Bodhi Svaha!


Do you believe and convince what the Avalokitesvara Boddhisatva said?

if no keep Om Money pay me Hum. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
"NOw, what is the releationship between Chan and WCK? The not abiding, the no self, the iimmovable wisdom, samething with different name. "

The search for mystical Chan and WCK.........The path of liberation must come back to the fundamental examination of who one really is.

Regards,


Nothing Mystical at all, while doing Chi Sau if one's mind stop at "I must do Tan when if he does this and this to me." then the result is known. :D

Very Mystical, how come we can chis sau pretty smoothly without pre-arrangement?


The closest between two points in a straight line. and Which Stragith line is that? the nose to nose? the shoulder... the.... :D

[Rolling_Hand]

<<Do you believe and convince what the Avalokitesvara Boddhisatva said? if no keep Om Money pay me Hum.>>HS

--Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind. Buddha does not live by words alone, despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them. Men love to wonder, and you'll never have a quiet world till you knock Ch'an out of the human race.--RH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind.


Certainly true. How strong is I KNOW SHAO LIN CHAN DRUG?

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

"I" can live comfortably with the relativity of space and time. "I" can let go and live by the moment for "I" can do whatsoever I will.

Regards,

[canglong]

Very Mystical, how come we can chis sau pretty smoothly without pre-arrangement?

Maybe you only think that your chi sau is not prearranged.

[PaulH]

Take away the mind interface from our body with all its sensory devices, no one, no things, and no how exists and real. All we really know of the others apart from ourselves are mental images and memories of what is it like being in contact with the others. How then can we even understand and conceptualize the ideas of absolute ideals, of fixed permanence, and of God when we did not see, sense, or experience them tangibly? Do robots dream?

Regards,

[ZIM]

Something to read, if you like. Or don't. ;)

There is no stream of consciousness (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/jcs02.htm)

Waking from the Meme Dream (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapters/awaken.html)

more to pick at random (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/research.htm)

She's a very nice source. :)

[Savi]

I would like to note that this thread is about Chan's relationship to Wing Chun. Yet much of the discussion is only about Chan rather than Chan & Wing Chun.

... What is Chan ... What is this rediculous insinuation of Chan fighting monks and political involvements? They aren't Chan monks! ... Hendrik is the victim of perilous attacks, never mind his off topic 'Diaz' comments and what-not ... WINE WINE WINE!!!!! ... whatever guys....

To get back to the topic, Hendrik, is there Chan in the Wing Chun you train so diligently? (Now this IS a specific question.) If it is, could you share with all of us how intricate it is to the Wing Chun you study? Is it part of your WC family's roots?

You asked us about Chan and our Wing Chun. Then you tell us what is and is not Chan. How about a little give and take as a show of faith? I will tell you how I view this thread, and you seem to know the answer to YOUR OWN THREAD because so far this thread has been nothing more than a trap for you to tell us how it is buddy, when the question in the first place has no right or wrong answer since it is open-ended but you insinuate that there is a right and wrong.

Do you know about Chan's possible relationship to any of the numerous Wing Chun lineages today? Do you? OK, then tell me how it is the foundation of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. And if you think they are lying, then tell us why you feel it is so.

[Rolling_Hand]

Originally posted by Zim

Something to read, if you like. Or don't.

There is no stream of consciousness

Waking from the Meme Dream

more to pick at random

She's a very nice source.

---------------------------------

Hi Zim,

Good stuff. Thanks!

We are such stuff -"As dreams are made on” (Shakespeare).

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

"I" can live comfortably with the relativity of space and time. "I" can let go and live by the moment for "I" can do whatsoever I will.

Regards,


Hi Paul,

May be just may be we are the one who create problem for ourself because we always "think about "I" " but in reality we all behave without "I" most of the time?

When a house in Fire, I am sure we all in this forum disregards of disagreement will help each other out of the fire house. The rest is just we love to argue for sake of argue. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong


Maybe you only think that your chi sau is not prearranged.

Can be both ways right?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Take away the mind interface from our body with all its sensory devices, no one, no things, and no how exists and real. All we really know of the others apart from ourselves are mental images and memories of what is it like being in contact with the others. How then can we even understand and conceptualize the ideas of absolute ideals, of fixed permanence, and of God when we did not see, sense, or experience them tangibly? Do robots dream?

Regards,


Takes away the sensory devices, we have great person similar to Helen Keller.

Tonight when we go to sleep, which part of sensory and reference do we bring into our sleep? How permanent and tangible are we?

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix

Chan is about mind with no place to abide. Not about create a coordinate, abide at the origin as the Truth, and taking the function or formula in the coordinate as the ultimate advance martial art.


/************** the unfettered mind ****************/
If one puts his mind in the action of his opponent's body, his mind will be taken by the action of his opponent's body.

If he puts his mind in his opponent's Tan(sword), his mind will be taken by that Tan(sword).

If he puts his mind in thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him, his mind will be taken by thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him.

If he puts his mind in his own Tan(sword), his mind will be taken by his own Tan(sword).

If he puts his mind in his own intention of not being struck, his mind will be taken by his intention of not being struck.

If he puts his mind in the other man's (YJKYM) stance, his mind will be taken by the other man's (YJKYM) stance.

What this means is that there is no place to put the mind.
/****************************************/

- so where do we put our minds during ChiSau?

:cool:

[Phenix]

I would like to note that this thread is about Chan's relationship to Wing Chun. Yet much of the discussion is only about Chan rather than Chan & Wing Chun. --S


It is neccessary to understand Chan as what it is, Right? --HS


... What is Chan ... What is this rediculous insinuation of Chan fighting monks and political involvements? They aren't Chan monks! ---S


One can read about the classical Shao Lin book " Shao Lin fist art secret", a very famous book, or perhaps the first book after 1900 which release the relationship between Chan and Martial art.
and Hsu Yun's , 1900's patriach of Chan, on his June the third lecture about Monk soldiers.... To find out what is going on.
One is a very solid and famous book of Shao Lin and Chan. ONe is the patriach of Chan.

Indeed, in that book. it said " wanting to study martial art, one has to first learn the " unfettered mind". ... otherwise, even with a good technics, ultimately, it is not the proper buddha dharma treasure.

So, IMHO, one can link all source from the Shao Lin writing to Takuan SoHo.... to Hsu Yun.... The fact is there. The method of training is there. the "Unfetterred mind" and the Proper Buddha Dharma.

In additional, without truely cross national and with different source, how can one see the core of Chan and martial art relationship? Without that, one can create whatever one wants. Certainly, in this free will world. That is ok. But, it that accord to all the patriach of Chan?

IMHO, if there is one top secret of Shao Lin Chan martial art, then it has to be the "unfetterred mind". and how to get there. -HS



... Hendrik is the victim of perilous attacks, never mind his off topic 'Diaz' comments and what-not ... WINE WINE WINE!!!!! ... whatever guys.... ---S


Hendrik is just a name. A name which Doesn't matter at all. Hendrik can be right or wrong since Hendrik also is learning and far from perfect.

However, whatever Hendrik brought up with evidents if it is proper and true. Then, the voice of the facts of the past and present patriachs have to be heard. If one agrees that is find if doesn't agree that is fine. Hendrik just report what are there.
The rest doesnt matter. ONe can attack Hendrik but what is that going to change the facts? --HS




To get back to the topic, is there Chan in the Wing Chun you train so diligently? ---S

Train Diligently is your words, not Hendrik's.
Whether there is Chan or not in Hendrik's Wing Chun depend on can one describe clearly what is Chan. --HS



(Now this IS a specific question.) If it is, could you share with all of us how intricate it is to the Wing Chun you study? Is it part of your WC family's roots? ---S


There is a saying Pah Ta Jung pei Ta or Afraid of getting hit will be hit in WCK. is that chan? unfettered mind? No-self? ---HS



You asked us about Chan and our Wing Chun. Then you tell us what is and is not Chan. How about a little give and take as a show of faith? --- S


The topic is Chan and WCK discussion. any one can agree or dis agree with others. anyone can bring up thier evidents to support thier ideas. No one has to believe or agree with any party or have faith on what the post of evidents. It is up to everyone's own judgement to take or leave the information or idea. --HS



I will tell you how I view this thread, and you seem to know the answer to YOUR OWN THREAD because so far this thread has been nothing more than a trap for you to tell us how it is buddy, when the question in the first place has no right or wrong answer since it is open-ended but you insinuate that there is a right and wrong. ---- S


If one brought up one's idea, certainly, one has to believe in it and provide evidents. As for is it a trap or not, that is individual's personal opinion.

One can decide to join the discussion or debate or not. everyone joins in thier free will. Is Las Vegas a trap?

One party can believe the question has no right or wrong answer. The other migh believe there is right or wrong answer. And that is totally valid in a free and democratic world.

But, if due to one's weakness in debate and without sufficient imfornation to justify one's idea and then blame on others. Then, why even discuss?


Do you know about Chan's possible relationship to any of the numerous Wing Chun lineages today? Do you?
OK, then tell me how it is the foundation of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. And if you think they are lying, then tell us why you feel it is so. ---S


The topic is about Chan and Wing Chun Kuen. That is very different with CHan and Wing Chun Kuen's lineage. --HS


And if you think they are lying, then tell us why you feel it is so. --S

Can't one accept that a discussion is a discussion and one can agree and dis agree with others?

Who is lying who think what? that is out of the topic of discussion. -HS

[Phenix]

Pic 1

[Phenix]

pic 2

Translation:

The mission of Buddhism is Compassionate helping the world.
Never heard about practicing martial art to hurt others. In the society, one uses self-defence as "speaking Chan" (alabi). In fact, within the movements from morning to night, It never away from the "nien" mind of assault others. This type of "niem" mind started, That is the not proper intention. This in proper intention gives raise and collecting Demon obstrucle. This type of thinking is totally opposite from Buddhism's Compassionate and Wisdom cultivation.

Since Damo's transmitting body cultivation methods, Non Buddhist thought Chan's way place is the place for kicking and punching. ... this is a biggest mis-conception....

[Phenix]

Pic 3

this one is about Hsu Yun's lecture June 3th (chinese calender) .... Ming emperor recruiting Shao Lin MOnks to be soldiers.... Lama was involved in the Boxer Rebelion... later Temple burn and Killed..... one has to pay back one's karma.

[Phenix]

Here 3 pictures were attached. YY or Dan can help to translate the big picture of what are in these books?

Hope that we all learn from what is happening and befinet.

Who is perfect? None. Who can't be better? None. IMHO.


PS.
A discussion is just a discussion, hope that people don't mistake for what I don't even dream about doing.
And, I appology if my joke miscommunicate to others thinking I am not respecting other. Savi is right. It is a serious topic and my intention is on information and leave the rest out. Hope that people cutting down the hurting and killing karma.

[yylee]

Hendrik

You should get yourself a scanner!

There are words missing in the pictures, can still see the ideas roughly.

pic 1 basically says to learn Kung Fu one should learn the immovable mind (heart) first.

pic 2 says something about as a Chan person one should help others crossover to Buddha land (or whatever you call it); no mention of the "learning-Kung-Fu-for-self-defence" slogan. All these jumping and moving daily would just pile up the destructive Karma, thus it contradicts Damo's teaching..... can't read the whole page sorry.

good night .....zzzz....zzzz.....zzz

[Phenix]

YY,

Thanks

[PaulH]

Hendrix,



May be just may be we are the one who create problem for ourself because we always "think about "I" " but in reality we all behave without "I" most of the time?

Maybe. Maybe you're not real but a colorful and funny person that my mind constructs to amuse itself. Who is sane and insane in this mental playing ground? Who's right and wrong? Who is awaked and who is still sleeping? No reference, no origin is for the gods and not for man.

Regards,

[canglong]

It is neccessary to understand Chan as what it is, Right? --HS

As what cha'n is or as you understand cha'n. It is possible the two may not be perceived as the same. As Savi says for this discussion you may want to discuss how cha'n and wck either do or do not can or can not co exist. A healthy discussion will include an exchange of ideas not just one sided opinion.

[Rolling_Hand]

<<But, if due to one's weakness in debate and without sufficient imfornation to justify one's idea and then blame on others. Then, why even discuss?>>HS

--Hi Hendrik,
Good point. Treat all men alike. Give them all the same laws. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. When will you go back to your discussion with TenTigers? Just curious!


Quote:
---------------------------------------
<<Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions>>TenTigers

<<bottom line. define the following:
1) five element hands potential concept of Fujien white crane
2) localized tensing system and non-localized tensing system-what is it, how are they used ? be as explicit as possible thanx>>TenTigers
---------------------------------------

[Phenix]

As what cha'n is or as you understand cha'n. It is possible the two may not be perceived as the same. ---C

There is a Term in madarin --- " Ming xing Cien Sin" or clear on the heart and "seeing" the characteristic.

Certainly one can understand Chan differently from different directions and angles while one starts to study Chan.
However, ultimately, the process that lead to and capable of achieve "MIng Xin Cien Sin " is the bottom line.

Thus, disregards of Hui Neng ( A illiterate fire wood seller) or TaKuan (Japanese) or Hung Yee ( A Chinese westernized artist in 1900s who attain enligthenment while dance) they can come from different angles tp talk about Chan.... but at the end all converge to Immovable widom or NO-self, disregards how they present it. Say Takuan present in the way of sword....

IMHO, Even reparing Motocycle can be Chan, if the process while repairing doesn't "stop" or abide the mind. as Takuan wrote " the this unmoving mind is revered as a god, respected as a buddha, and called the Mind of Zen" --HS



As Savi says for this discussion you may want to discuss how cha'n and wck either do or do not can or can not co exist. -C

Good point, however,
IMHO, Chan is about No abide or Stoping of Mind.
When the 5th patriach certified the six partiach of Chan with the
phrase in the Varja sutra which said " Ying Wu Suo Chu er sen Chi Xin." or No place to abide the mind. That said it all.
As Takuan wrote " It is not a matter of selecting an answer either good or bad. We respect the mind that does not stop. "

IMHO, it is that people don't know about what is Chan but thinking they knows all about Chan which create lots and lots of theories that confuse the heck out of everyone. In additional, there are people who claim Chan cannot be talked about or NOBODY knows Chan, this is very common in Chinese Buddhism community. In chinese, these type of talked is called "sher sher or fei" looks similar to correct but wrong.
That is just confuse the heck out everyone.

If one spontaneously suddent realizes that Chan is about " No place to abide the mind" what is chan? And what is not Chan?

As for creating a coordiante be it rectengula or polar. Once, there is origin, give raise to x y z or ampliture / angles.... getting into equations and transform such as Laplase.. foureir... That has creates its own domain. Such as in engineering there are real time domain, there are frequency domain, there are discrete time domain.. That is our creation and it comes with limitation or boundary condition. ---HS


A healthy discussion will include an exchange of ideas not just one sided opinion. --C

That is true. That is the reason we still discussing.
A healthy discussion also include of be able to distiguist between facts and opinon and be able to accept the facts.


Finally, may be because the material I present here is too strong that people might think I attack them. The fact is no. in the chan part of discussion, I am interested only to clearify Chan so everyone benifit. That include me since I am also learning. lots can be learn. So, instead of targeting the person Hendrik whoever he is. Why not present the strongest material to support your ideas. That way, everything will be positive disregard outcome. The bottom line is everyone learn and progress. In fact, I careless about "I Know it all". What I upto is the process to "Ming Xin Cien Sin", because only and only one gets there everything transform, the past melt down, the rest is history and let go. that include self and the way or habit how one does things then can be expanded limitlessly. IMHO, I might be wrong. Thus, I present the material to support my view. and willing to chance them and modified them.-HS

[Phenix]

HI RH,

those are pretty common information in WCK filed today, There is no different between me and others, I think, just to on top of my head without thinking........ Joy to YY to Rene to Dan to ..planet WC... john...... alots of people in the forum ..and you.... all be able to discuss with Ten Tiger. See what great things can come out of it.






--Hi Hendrik,
Good point. Treat all men alike. Give them all the same laws. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. When will you go back to your discussion with TenTigers? Just curious!


Quote:
---------------------------------------
<<Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions>>TenTigers

<<bottom line. define the following:
1) five element hands potential concept of Fujien white crane
2) localized tensing system and non-localized tensing system-what is it, how are they used ? be as explicit as possible thanx>>TenTigers
---------------------------------------

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik said this...
<<I present the material to support my view.>> -HS

Hendrik also said this...
<<Since those are pretty common things in WCK, I think from Joy to YY to Rene to Dan to .... alots of people in the forum ... all be able to discuss with Ten Tiger.>>HS

--Too bad that all the people who know how to answer the questions are late night talk show hosts.--RH


Quote
---------------------------------------
<<Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions>>TenTigers
---------------------------------------

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Hendrik said this...
<<I present the material to support my view.>> -HS

Hendrik also said this...
<<HI RH,

those are pretty common information in WCK filed today, There is no different between me and others, I think, just to on top of my head without thinking........ Joy to YY to Rene to Dan to ..planet WC... john...... alots of people in the forum ..and you.... all be able to discuss with Ten Tiger. See what great things can come out of it. >>HS

--Too bad that all the people who know how to answer the questions are late night talk show hosts.--RH





You mean include you? :D:D

[Rolling_Hand]

blab...

Quote:
----------------------------
<<Hendrik, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow?>>TenTigher

[canglong]

Sorry Rolling_Hand, Hendrik has only questions and no answers. When you provide the answer he only has more questions or quotes or incorrect quotes or misinformation or puzzles or riddles or suggest you ask his friends or maybe leave the thread but his answers are a rare as hens teeth.

[PaulH]

This is what I get the most from Hendrix's method of sharing:

Keep your fears to yourself, but share your inspiration with others. - Robert Louis Stevenson

While I don't share his vision of Chan, I must admit it has been fun and thought provoking. My true Chan is more of a real doctor and close friend that I know for the last 15 years. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[reneritchie]

There is no thread...

[PaulH]

Rene,

True. Just fragmented pieces of what one perceives to be "you" and "me" hold together collective in a "forced" pattern of an intelligible and intangible thread by one's consciousness in an attempt to make meaningful relationship out of the randomness of uneventful meaningless ideas. Is this the makings of Chan? More unanswered questions! Ha! Ha!

[Phenix]

a vampire can't look into the morning sun since it fear to be burn and it hates mirror so it doesn't has to see it's own...

one don't have to trust the sutra, the patriachs, the writing and teaching of the patriachs...... and choose to believe what one wants to believe and make up. Free Will.

[canglong]

So hendrik now you are telling us you are a vampire, is that your final answer?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
So hendrik now you are telling us you are a vampire, is that your final answer?


someone Loves to make assumption .... does vampire has great sun tent(sp)? :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
This is what I get the most from Hendrix's method of sharing:

Keep your fears to yourself, but share your inspiration with others. - Robert Louis Stevenson




Great.

Why fear to face the sun when try to understand spring. :D

why abide in fear?

[canglong]

Somebody likes to avoid answers:D

[ZIM]

Somebody's been eating my porridge. :D

[PaulH]

"Fear is something to be moved through, not something to be turned from. - Peter McWilliams"

If one believes in Providence and the rightness of his deeds, one can face one's fears with calmness and acceptance. Interesting how knife fighters pray for hours in preparation for their death matches just before the duel, don't you think! I keep my fears to myself as they are meaningless to others.

Regards,

[Phenix]

If one believes in Providence and the rightness of his deeds, one can face one's fears with calmness and acceptance. ---P

Very true. HS





Interesting how knife fighters pray for hours in preparation for their death matches just before the duel, don't you think! --P

if there is no abiding who fight who? or it is just a dance of siva. --HS



I keep my fears to myself as they are meaningless to others. --P

Fear appeared when one knows one is in a wrong path but trying to hold the abiding. Let go and all shall past. No Self ,no permenent hope------ no fear. -Hs

[PaulH]

I find this to be true in my dealings with my own fears: "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it. - Arthur Ashe"

[Rolling_Hand]

<<one don't have to trust the sutra, the patriachs, the writing and teaching of the patriachs...... and choose to believe what one wants to believe and make up. Free Will.>>HS

--The key question is not whether the sutra is the pointing finger, but is Hendrik the Messiah? Also Y'shua said:"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."(John8:32)--RH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
<<one don't have to trust the sutra, the patriachs, the writing and teaching of the patriachs...... and choose to believe what one wants to believe and make up. Free Will.>>HS

--The key question is not whether the sutra is the pointing finger, but is Hendrik the Messiah? Also Y'shua said:"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."(John8:32)--RH


who is Hendrik? who cares if he is just a pinky pointing at the sutras.....

Why not focus on the sutras, the patriachs, the pictures of those old books..... they might set you free.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
I find this to be true in my dealings with my own fears: "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it. - Arthur Ashe"

And you keep broader the boundary .... until it meet no boundary

[PaulH]

And you keep broader the boundary .... until it meet no boundary

I figure I know this soon enough the moment I die. No need to rush on this. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Savi]

Since Hendrik has yet to address the Chan + WC connection, and we are up to pg 8, I've decided that I have spent more than enough energy and time in talking about non-topic things trying to ask direct questions about Chan and WC.

Any possible connection of Chan and WC must be in its lineage's Kuen Kuit. That's how I see it, and where the proof is. Hung Fa Yi has it in its Kuen Kuit, but at this point of the thread, any further sharing is pointless.

There is no Hendrik? So then, if I call his name he won't acknowledge. If I hit him in the face he won't feel it. If I try and communicate with him in any shape or form, he won't respond. Talk about someone who doesn't know who he is. Whoever is replying for the username of Phenix or Hendrik, stop playing games and wasting all of our time.

See you guys.

[Phenix]

Since Hendrik has yet to address the Chan + WC connection, and we are up to pg 8, I've decided that I have spent more than enough energy and time in talking about non-topic things trying to ask direct questions about Chan and WC. ---S

Feel free to express yourself. Not is that true the Chan + WC not discussed? --HS

Any possible connection of Chan and WC must be in its lineage's Kuen Kuit. That's how I see it, and where the proof is. Hung Fa Yi has it in its Kuen Kuit, but at this point of the thread, any further sharing is pointless. --S

Great if you have your stuffs.

For me, until what is Chan according to the Gautama Buddha and Kasyapa is clear.....

Does a Stone has Chan? Does a human has Chan? Does a Name has Chan? Does an action has Chan? does a Kuen Kuit has Chan? Does a sutra has Chan? Does a man has chan? Does a dead man has chan? So what is Chan? --HS


There is no Hendrik? ---S

Savi said there is no Hendrik. Same with a while a go he said about Buddha. and There was a Gautama buddha person same as Diaz who is a cute person.

There is a phenomenon called Simsons , Which is impermenant. He was borned, stay for a while, then die. --HS



So then, if I call his name he won't acknowledge. If I hit him in the face he won't feel it. If I try and communicate with him in any shape or form, he won't respond. -S

How Can a phenomenon Called Savi understand the phenomenon called Simsons? simsons might speak korean and live in the Television universe...--- HS




Talk about someone who doesn't know who he is. Whoever is replying for the username of Phenix or Hendrik, stop playing games and wasting all of our time. ---S

How can Simson waisting Albert's time? Can Simson live for Albert?

The 2nd patriach went to Damo and ask. Help me to release from my suffering. Damo Said, "who tie you up? " --HS


See you guys. -S

Be patient. in Chinese it says, Great things always late to achieve. Great fullness appear lack. Great sound has no voice. -HS

[Rolling_Hand]

<<who is Hendrik? who cares if he is just a pinky pointing at the sutras....>>HS.

--Hendrik? Phenix? Are they the same person? Talk about someone who doesn't know who he is. You never hesitate to the tackle the most difficult problems. Perhaps you do this too much. It's time for Savi and TenTigers to show flexibility, and their points are worth considering.--RH

<<Why not focus on the sutras, the patriachs, the pictures of those old books..... they might set you free.>>HS

--Why not? I'd give you one good reason -"keep an eye open for an opportunity to sense and know higher truth". About those old books and pictures...the worst thing about them is that they keep you from reading the new ones. Nowadays, even Lamas have to read Time magazine, don't you know!--RH

[reneritchie]

PaulH,

What is the sound of one hand trolling?

If a troll posts on the 'net, and nobody sees it, will they still get flamed?

What came first, the post or the flame?

[PaulH]

Rene,

Not sure. I did hear a certain horrible gasping noise coming from an unwilling victim as the trolling hand seized his throat. I forgot the name of that remarkable movie. As to what comes first, it depends on your perspective on this thread. If you believe in circular thinking, don't even start the question. If on the other hand, you like linear progression of things, there must be a prior cause that start this whole chain of reactions. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[[Censored]]

Any possible connection of Chan and WC must be in its lineage's Kuen Kuit. That's how I see it, and where the proof is. Hung Fa Yi has it in its Kuen Kuit

What are they?

[canglong]

If a troll posts on the 'net, and nobody sees it, will they still get flamed?

Rene, you seem to want the yin without the yang, you want the rose without the thorns as if you are wiser than nature. In this discussion I would suggest you yourself lack enough self identity to stay on the topic, although Hendrik seems to have muddled the picture himself don't let others force you in to bad post.


Nowadays, even Lamas have to read Time magazine, don't you know!--RH

hahahaha good point Rolling_Hand.

[Phenix]

Satori is not a result of intellecture reasoning ----DT Suzuki



Facing the Kannon but not knowing it.
Start over from the begining. ---- Koan.

[Phenix]

With a mind filled with "I", and tie down by win and lost... and number one .. and the ....
How Sad is it? :(





Originally posted by canglong


Rene, you seem to want the yin without the yang, you want the rose without the thorns as if you are wiser than nature. In this discussion I would suggest you yourself lack enough self identity to stay on the topic, although Hendrik seems to have muddled the picture himself don't let others force you in to bad post.



hahahaha good point Rolling_Hand.

[Rolling_Hand]

Re: wck + chan

<<With a mind filled with "I",>>HS

--"I", you might wonder how this "I" can bring magic into your life. Deception in this case is self-deception, not "I", doubting yourself so that you are cut off from the Tao.--RH

<<and tie down by win and lost... and number one .. and the ....
How Sad is it? >>HS

--Who is talking about win or lost? "How Sad is it?"...why do you feel this way? And my girl friend once read these lines to a seven year old-"Give up one activity that blocks you from getting on with the joy of living". Now, it's time to have fun!--RH

[Rolling_Hand]

<<hahahaha good point Rolling_Hand.>>Tony Jacobs

--Tony, If I could make you laugh, do you think I'm good enough to be an actor in comedy? Btw, please forgive me this is not a Ch'an+WCK question!--RH

[canglong]

Phenix it is a lack of faith that will cause you to be sad. Have faith in the truth and the sadness will dissipate.

Rolling_Hand I believe you are multi talented enough to be whatever it is you set your mind to be.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Here is what the last page or so of posts reminds me of:


Click here (http://www.theonion.com/onion2908/monkgloats.html)

:D

[kj]

That's perfect, Sandman! :D:D:D

Regards,
- kj