Why the need to differentiate?

[weightvest]

I see a lot of "Grappling vs Boxing" and "Forms vs techniques" posts up here and I don't understand this way of thinking.

Why can a boxer not grapple, or a grappler not box? I thought fighting was about flowing and spontaneity?

Forms in kungfu are practised to give you flow, like learning scales in music. Techinques are like learning the arpeggios (spl), short little bursts of combos. They work together. If you practise form bt no technique, it's just showy. If you practise technique without forms, it doesn't flow. Simple.

And why is everyone so hung up on UFC? Every two years there is a tournament in China for Asia's top military soldiers, and any other top martial artsist to enter if he/she so wishes. It's no rules, no pads, and the round doesn't end until someone gives up or is carried out of the ring. the guys who do this could eat UFC for brekkie. Sorry, it's just fact.

Anyway, ring fighting has nothing to do with how good or bad you are at martial arts. Ring fighting is pre-emptive, totally different thing.

Oh and why the constant "Crane vs Ninja" and stuff. A style isn't going to determine who is the better fighter, only the person him/her-self will determine that. I could be a Super Grand Master at Hard-As-Nails-Do but still get the doohikies beat out of me by Mrs Miggins the Pie Shop Lady.

[Merryprankster]

Sorry, it's just fact.

Well, it would be fact if it had happenned. As it hasn't, it's just your opinion.

But thanks for playing our game!

[yenhoi]

People, not just people who call themselves martial artists, have some strange habit of gathering themselves into groups, giving their groups names, and then calling all the other groups and non-groups inferior for this or that reason.

Techniques do not exist.

Your right, no matter what label you choose for yourself or what label others have given you, it has no bearing on fighting.

As for your randomness concerning UFC and this sillyness you mention in china.... the pagan Merryprankster has you now.

:eek:

[weightvest]

lol i am serious! once you reach high enough ranks in chin woo for example, you get invited to take part. it is called the Shaolin Temple Tournament, and it is held once every two years.

the fighting part is no rules (except no Fatalities), free-style, and is meant for red army soldiers and top martial artists!

I just think UFC is an odd thing to be so attracted to. different courses for diferent horses i suppose ;)

[ewallace]

Actually, I think the people who are the most hung up on the UFC are the ones who don't like the UFC, or wouldn't compete in it because their moves are too deadly.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by weightvest
I see a lot of "Grappling vs Boxing" and "Forms vs techniques" posts up here and I don't understand this way of thinking.

Why can a boxer not grapple, or a grappler not box? I thought fighting was about flowing and spontaneity?

very true. The essence of those threads is to compare a pure boxer vs a pure grappler, etc. Not everyone cross trains, so it's always good to compare notes.

And why is everyone so hung up on UFC? Every two years there is a tournament in China for Asia's top military soldiers, and any other top martial artsist to enter if he/she so wishes. It's no rules, no pads, and the round doesn't end until someone gives up or is carried out of the ring. the guys who do this could eat UFC for brekkie. Sorry, it's just fact.

Anyway, ring fighting has nothing to do with how good or bad you are at martial arts. Ring fighting is pre-emptive, totally different thing.

I never get tired of laughing at people who waste keystrokes to type mess like that.

[ewallace]

Why are you laughing SevenStar? Martial Arts has nothing to do with someone wanting to kick your ass or you wanting to kick some else's ass. Punches, kicks, takedowns, clinches, grappling...none of that has anything to do with martial arts.

[EuropeanBoxer]

ewallace Actually, I think the people who are the most hung up on the UFC are the ones who don't like the UFC, or wouldn't compete in it because their moves are too deadly.

I completely agree with you. UFC is good for "fighting" but not for "killing". Ever notived how no special forces ever compete in the tournaments. Well there trained to kill not fight.

[SevenStar]

They are trained to kill... with guns. The hand to hand training they receive is minimal.

the people who are caught up with the UFC are the people stuck in 1995 who still think that the gracies rule and that people think bjj is the only way to go

[Yung Apprentice]

The marines actually can choose to take marine martial arts. They have belts, and they progress you along. The basic hand to hand they get is minimal, but they can opt for more extensive training.

[Samurai Jack]

Quote:
"Martial Arts has nothing to do with someone wanting to kick your ass or you wanting to kick some else's ass. Punches, kicks, takedowns, clinches, grappling...none of that has anything to do with martial arts."


Ewallace you hit the nail on the head. The longer I'm involved in the MA the more I find this to be true. Most of the confusion arises when non-martial artists try to fit what they are seeing in a dojo/kwoon with what they are already familiar with.

The real shame is that so many teachers try to use the "I'll teach you to kill muggers" angle to promote thier school that 99.9% of the population are going to stay in the dark.

I mean, who's going to pay for lessons just so they can learn to be what they already are? Who in this society is going to spend time unlearning what they believe themselves to be? It's much easier to use your art to punch someone's nose then it is to kill your "self". Few can step up to what Martial Art really is.

[Merryprankster]

Ah see, Samurai Jack, e wallace was kidding. He was being sarcastic. MA is ALL about developing ways to kick somebody's ass. The rest is a side bonus.

[Samurai Jack]

It appears that I am the one who was in the dark. I must respectfully disagree with your opinion nevertheless. In the begining many of us are concerned with "beating people up". As we advance and age our goals also advance.

It is inevitable that those who seek an efficient method of hurting others will move on to something more direct than years of Martial Art training. Those who stay on MUST find a reason to do so. Hopefully we can both find what we are looking for within the context of our training.

[Merryprankster]

This is really an apple and oranges argument. My only point is that study of martial arts confers no character building benefits that are inherently better than those you would receive from dedicating yourself to any other activity. Perserverence, discipline, focus, etc...these are all things you can learn in other activities.

So if your goal is to develop character or something, there are plenty of other ways to do it. We learn to punch kick throw and break because we're learning to kick a little butt. Character development is the benefit that comes from dedication...

[Elxen]

Ever tought about the fact someone can train/be dedicated in training kung fu (or whatever) because he just likes to do so?
I've been training for several years and I don't see/participate in the kicking as# logic you are using......if the only reason you train is to kick someone's as# I feel pity for you.
You take a very very rich art do deform it into some bestial primitive minded thing......this if of course your choice but it seems to me like buying a car and only using the trunk to put stuff in iso driving with it. Of course you can use the trunk of that car to put stuff in, but it sounds silly to me that you buy a car and do not drive in it and insteas laugh with others who do......

[Merryprankster]

Ever tought about the fact someone can train/be dedicated in training kung fu (or whatever) because he just likes to do so? I've been training for several years and I don't see/participate in the kicking as# logic you are using......if the only reason you train is to kick someone's as# I feel pity for you. You take a very very rich art do deform it into some bestial primitive minded thing......this if of course your choice but it seems to me like buying a car and only using the trunk to put stuff in iso driving with it. Of course you can use the trunk of that car to put stuff in, but it sounds silly to me that you buy a car and do not drive in it and insteas laugh with others who do......


I'm going to assume that english isn't your first language, so I'll be nice here, as I think we're having some communication difficulties.

Martial Arts are Martial. You learn to kick a little butt, assuming you're doing it right. That may or may not be your motivation for training. This is fine.

My ONLY point is that there are plenty of endeavors out there that require the same dedication, hard work and perserverance--being the best guitarist you can, or best woodworker you can, or the best cyclist you can become takes just as much effort, time and practice as being the best MAist you can.

To argue then that the POINT of MA's is to build character/spiritual discipline, etc. is, IMO a fallacy. I mean, the POINT of woodworking isn't to develop character--but you develop it nonetheless in your pursuit of perfection. The point of MA's is to learn to fight and do it well. Being the "best" person you can become can be a nice side-effect, but is not required.

If the point of MA's was to become a great person, it would stand to reason that the most celebrated figures in MA's would be those who became the "best" people. Quite frankly, you can see for yourself that the most celebrated were those with high skill in fighting, and MANY of them had extensive personal vices and flaws.

[Elxen]

First of all, my first language indeed isn't english, but i'm always willing to learn, so comments are welcome (except for the few typos I made).

Secondly, I'll probably repeat myself but learning to fight is not the only thing to learn when doing MA. It's an aspect of it.
Also, i'm speaking for myself, not for every martial artist (that would be arrogant).
If you choose to concentrate on one aspect then that is fine by me, but you cannot generalize your 'needs' to every martial artist.

I think martial arts can help you in developping outer as well as inner strength and so on. Can you give me some other 'sport' that does such things?
This is why it is called martial ARTS and not martial sports.
And even if there was another way that developped inner and outer strenght, does that really matter. Does the path you had to take to obtain your goal really matter that much?
For me, being able to kick as# is a nice extra.....

Thirdly, good fighters are not immediate good martial artists, or good persons either. good fighters are only good fighters, nothing more, nothing less. It takes a lot more to be a good person than being able to kick some theeth out.
Me for myself hope never to have to (really) fight again so why should I train MA then (following your opinion I shouldn't?)?


I could also begin nagging about 'a way of life' but that'd sound too cliche so i'll spare you that one.

Hope you get my point :-)

[Merryprankster]

I think martial arts can help you in developping outer as well as inner strength and so on. Can you give me some other 'sport' that does such things?

Yes. Any sport you want to get good at. What it takes to be the very best you can be at anything requires a tremendous amount of discipline, sacrifice and dedication, mastery of self, and willingness to put your ego aside to learn. In fact, this applies to any activity you undertake with the goal of being the very best you can.


Thirdly, good fighters are not immediate good martial artists, or good persons either. good fighters are only good fighters, nothing more, nothing less. It takes a lot more to be a good person than being able to kick some theeth out.

No argument with this comment. But this is a straw man that doesn't actually address the issue. Your argument is that MA's appear to be PRIMARILY about more than just learning to fight well. However, the empirical evidence does not appear to be in your favor. Martial arts CAN be about more than just fighting--but oddly enough, fighting is central to all martial disciplines, whereas character development is not. I point you once again to the historical examples that are passed down--the revered individuals are not the most spiritually developed, on the whole, but the ones that could fight.


Me for myself hope never to have to (really) fight again so why should I train MA then (following your opinion I shouldn't?)?

Me, I train for fun. That doesn't change the argument though--the purpose is still to learn to fight. Just because I have fun doing it and hope I never have to doesn't fundamentally change the purpose of the art itself.

It's our intent that changes, not the art's purpose. Does that make sense? Just because YOU are doing it for whatever you are doing it for, and I am doing it for whatever I am doing it for, still doesn't change the purpose of the art.

[Dark Knight]

Me for myself hope never to have to (really) fight again so why should I train MA then

I do it for the chicks.

[Elxen]

dark knight, don't we all
:D :cool:




It's our intent that changes, not the art's purpose. Does that make sense? Just because YOU are doing it for whatever you are doing it for, and I am doing it for whatever I am doing it for, still doesn't change the purpose of the art. [/B]

I think the art's main purpose is to learn to defend oneself. If that is equal to fighting (for you), then I agree.

But the general purpose of MA was not what I was talking about.
It was MY purpose MY MY MY MY MYYYYYYY *foam*

[Merryprankster]

It was MY purpose MY MY MY MY MYYYYYYY *foam*

Ah, well then. Moot point. I apologize for wasting your time!!! :D

[Elxen]

As I'm 9/10 times only accessing this forum during work I would not call it a waste of time....
Instead the words 'entertaining' and 'please, someone, help me!' spontaneously pop up in my mind (don't know why, really :)

[Samurai Jack]

I suppose it really depends on the so called "art" that you choose to study. I just take issue with using the word "art" when what you're really refering to is a set of skills taught within a curriculum. This is not Martial Art, this is a Martial School.

Art by definition, is the creation of something beautiful. Fighting is NOT beautiful.

To quote an old teacher of mine:

"You can learn fighting skills from a martial art, but you cannot learn Martial Art from a set of fighting skills."

And no, if I could get the same benifits from studying carpentry as Aikido I'd already be enlightened. The fact is that true Martial Arts are hard to come by, and they are much greater than the sum of thier parts. Sure, many of us study with the original intention of aquiring a set of fighting skills, but fighting isn't the point of my style. Nor is fighting the point of true Martial Art.

[yenhoi]

I think the art is in the things that you do everyday.

EVERYDAY.

Just like anything else.

What you attach to your study is up to you.

My art has to do with bashing peoples heads who disagree with me.

:eek:

[Samurai Jack]

Wow. Probably don't have too many folks disagreeing with you outside of the internet right ?