Wing Chun Groundfighting Clip [Archive]

Ultimatewingchun

07-24-2003, 01:11 PM

The mount defense against being grapevined, smothered with the chest, having one's head controlled and then being subject to punches and elbows while alternate posting (basing) is going on - is a situation wherein much has already happened to the man on the ground BEFORE he makes his move to reverse the position - which would require a completely different type of defense...

but if one is simply mounted and then comes the punches raining down - the escape on the tape WILL WORK.

As regards allowing ALL of the first situation to develop BEFORE making a wrestling reversal along with a bridge and possibly a well placed gouge attack - into a hammerlock or a double wristlock (Catch style): well that's the guy that I'd like to mount in my neighborhood - since he's way too slow and inexperienced for his own good.

reneritchie

07-24-2003, 01:21 PM

Victor,

Thanks, please see my previous post!

Best,

fragbot

07-24-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Merryprankster:

That move is garbage?

Try punching down at a TWC practitioner from the mount and see what happens!

But I'd put good money that the outcome wouldn't be what I just saw in that clip.

Not meaning to be a pr***, but that technique's just plain awful.

Ultimatewingchun

07-24-2003, 01:54 PM

I've been working with that move on the tape (and variations of it) for two years now - and I had to watch that tape half a dozen times to see if it was being done correctly. I'll give the performance on the tape a B-/C+ grade: there's actually a few nuances that are either missing completely and/or hard to see on that particular video.

You have to see this move in person to understand that it can and will work against a rounded punch coming down from the mount - and a slight variation against a straight punch.

The next move AFTER the initial chuen sao (bil/bil) to get to the outside of his punching arm is completely missing from the tape - the second bil is supposed to become a grabbing lop at his wrist while the other wing chun hand is a gum sao (stiff-arm pak sao at his elbow) to unbalance him and make him post (base) with his other arm... but this move IS COMPLETLEY MISSING FROM THE TAPE.

All of this is supposed to be done before the roll over somersault (which was not performed all that well either).... and the final position AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY TAUGHT BY WILLIAM CHEUNG is really hard to understand by simply watching that video also...because it's missing!

That's all I can say about that video for now. Phil Redmond likes to allow many of his students (including intermediate students) to participate in his website photos and videos - WHICH IS A GOOD THING FOR THEIR MORALE...The downside is that sometimes the sharks in the waters will start circling around trying to smell blood if you do your website like that.

That's life! What can I say? Phil does an overall excellent job with his students and his website.

Geezer

07-24-2003, 01:57 PM

Sifu Parliti Wrote>

but if one is simply mounted and then comes the punches raining down - the escape on the tape WILL WORK. only if the guy in the mount position keeps punching the ground next to the guy's head that's on the floor with haymakers????

I take it that what was on show was not the finished product??

Sheldon

fa_jing

07-24-2003, 01:58 PM

Agreed, I liked very much the forms and Wooden man clips on that site, though I haven't had a chance to look through all of the technique clips. Keep up the good work PR!

wiz cool c

07-24-2003, 02:23 PM

I think it is good that wing chun people are starting to incorporate ground fighting into there game. Will that work against a jujuitsu guy no way but it would probably work against an untrained fighter. If they keep up this type of training in the future they might have a well evolved ground game.

Ultimatewingchun

07-24-2003, 02:39 PM

wiz cool c:

That's exactly why I incorporate Catch-as-catch-can wrestling (and some jiu-jitsu) into my Wing Chun classes here in Brooklyn.

Many folks on this website and elsewhere are adding to their wing chun with grappling training - in today's world it's an absolute must.

Merryprankster

07-24-2003, 04:10 PM

Hi.

It's garbage.

No control of the far side at all. His leg and arm are free to post to prevent the turn....if you even GET that far.

Your opponent is not going to conveniently fall flat on his face and will shift his weight to the near side bottom corner to counter the leg lift.

He's not just going to let you get into a ball-and-chain like that either (as though you can just pass the leg over your head).

There is no disruption of the hips to set up this movement and counter the pressure of the top man.

This is what not sparring against people who know what they are doing produces - techniques with serious fundamental flaws that will get them mauled against somebody with some experience.

Ball and chain is a great control position though!

Water Dragon

07-24-2003, 05:22 PM

Quit trying to use fancy words to confuse everyone merryprankster. This clip shows that Wing Chun principles can be applied from the ground and actually create excellant variations of BJJ sweeps.

You also need to remember that this was just a demo. If it was real, they wuld have used a Bil jee to the eyes instead of a punch. How well is your BJJ going to work when your eyes have just been gouged out?

TjD

07-24-2003, 05:35 PM

ugh.

i didn't like any of that clip. neither person was trying at all. it looks like they had been doing that drill over and over for about 10 minutes and had begun to just go through the motions.

the guy on top was basically just letting himself be thrown to the floor. and the guy on the bottom had no substance behind his WC hands.

::edit::
it would be a lot easier to judge that clip if either person was trying, and hadn't gotten to the "just going over the motions" point.

Phil Redmond

07-24-2003, 09:03 PM

That clip was taken from a seminar. The two guys were trying to do a technique. The clip got thrown on the site to show the participants at the seminar, not to demonstrate any techinques. I was taping anybody that was there so they could see themselves later on.That's why we did the seminar page. I still have many more short clips that I was going to put on the site, but we're changing from Mpegs to Quicktime so all of the old mpegs are being replaced as you can see on the forms page. So the next time any of you visit the seminar page you might see lots of things that might not look like you think they should look. The clip was taken at the very beginning of the seminar, plus as Victor said, there was more than the clip showed.

Merryprankster

07-25-2003, 02:07 AM

While I will withhold judgment on the skill level of the demonstrators, regardless if there was "more shown," this seems to lack some fundamental necessities, namely, control of posting limbs.

But perhaps the next set of clips will prove me wrong.

reneritchie

07-25-2003, 07:25 AM

Phil is one of the most generous guys on the 'net with one of, if not the, best looking WCK sites out there.

MP is correct in his assessment of the technique shown. People can whine about it like little kids, or they can give a detailed analysis of why it *could* work to match his of why it probably won't (though I still prefer other people do it as it will make my life easier).

Or, find someone who's been in NHB as long as you've been in WCK, of similar weight and attributes, let them mount and start pounding you, and see if it works for yourself.

old jong

07-25-2003, 07:42 AM

I agree about Phil and I believe that he is a very nice guy who would never teach any B.S to his students. Ground fighting is a whole subject. Could this technique work?...Maybe against some...Never against others.
Even the bridge and roll and the knee/elbow/shrimp escape will not work all the times.You need to really work and be alert for any flaw in the mounted assaillant's base to make then work. (From my experience anyway!) There are no tricks and I could see this "technique" very well as some way to provoque a reaction or disrupt the opponent's base in order to gain some advantage.

TjD

07-25-2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Phil is one of the most generous guys on the 'net with one of, if not the, best looking WCK sites out there.

this is true, i wish i could make a webpage that looked like that for our school, or had near that amount of information :D

Ultimatewingchun

07-25-2003, 08:25 AM

My final thoughts on the technique shown on the video:

First - it should be a right-hand bil sao (not a tan sao) used as the initial point of contact against the somewhat rounded punch - immediately followed by the threading hand bil sao (chuen sao) with the right arm - that slides along underneath the first bil sao..

MOVING HIS LEFT PUNCHING ARM OVER ACROSS HIS BODY TO HIS RIGHT - to be immediately followed by the right hand (specifically the palm of the hand) of the wing chun fighter onto the elbow of the assailant while holding his left wrist with your left hand lop sao...

The palm of the hand REALLY starts to pressure his elbow WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY BRIDGING THE RIGHT SIDE OF YOUR BODY UP AND TOWARD THE LEFT....

the assailant will nave NO CHOICE at this point than to POST on his right hand to avoid being completely thrown - AND HIS LEFT ELBOW IS NOW IN DANGER OF BEING LOCKED...

the wing chun guy then starts to lift up his right leg (hooking the opponent's leg) far enough so that when he lets go of the opponent's elbow he can immediately grab the opponent's left leg near the ankle to bring that leg up over his head as he somersaults - WHILE STILL HOLDING ON TO THE OPPONENT'S LEFT WRIST...

Merryprankster: I'll just let you ponder what that will do to the the opponent's balance and position - to say nothing of the jeapoardy his left elbow is now in while he lays face down on the floor with the wing chun guy now taking complete control of his back and left arm..

The finishing moves that follow (which also did not appear on the video)...I won't even tell you about...just in case you would like to try your luck someday against a highly skilled TWC guy...

let it be an unpleasant surprise as to what happens at the very end of this technique....and have a nice day.

Ultimatewingchun

07-25-2003, 08:31 AM

In the very first paragragh of my previous post the chuen sao (threading hand bil sao) is performed with the LEFT arm...not the right arm.

That hand becomes the left hand lop sao at the opponent's left wrist mentioned in the second paragraph.

Merryprankster

07-25-2003, 08:37 AM

Hey, it wasn't a challenge tough guy. Back WAY the hell off, yah?

I've no beef with you and freely admit more information might prove me wrong. I analyzed the vid clip based on my experience and found it wanting. That's it.

Ultimatewingchun

07-25-2003, 09:24 AM

Perhaps the constant use of the word "garbage" to describe a technique developed and taught by Grandmaster Willliam Cheung may have had something to do with the tough-guy response......

Merryprankster

07-25-2003, 09:45 AM

That clip, as posted, is garbage. It's nice of the poster to provide the info and all, but it's crap.

Somebody better who does the details right might prove me wrong.

Sorry if that offends you.

fragbot

07-25-2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Perhaps the constant use of the word "garbage" to describe a technique developed and taught by Grandmaster Willliam Cheung may have had something to do with the tough-guy response......

I guess it's inconceivable that William Cheung might show you a crappy technique. Hell, I've seen a crappy technique (a lame sweep where he almost fell over) by his German marketing arch-nemesis.

I primarily train Japanese Jujutsu. We have a small amount of hitting but, quite frankly, it's mostly primitive and works only in very specific situations--after I've already slammed you into the ground or if you're a mook w/o a clue. If someone (particularly someone from, say, kyukushin karate) pointed this out, we'd simply respond: "yeah, we know."

Is the technique not garbage simply because William Cheung showed it to you?

Ultimatewingchun

07-25-2003, 02:49 PM

Forget the video - after having explained the technique in detail the way I did - if either one of you two trolls still think the technique is "garbage", or "crap"...

Again I'll extend an invitation to check out it out up close and personal - with me, or any other TWC sifu you may ever come across.

Until then...adios.

KenWingJitsu

07-25-2003, 04:47 PM

um. I concur with MP & Tjd......

The move as shown in THAT clip wont work.

Proper control of the posting arm & leg will work. In other words, a PROPER dismount/umpa will work. But that clip wasn't a proper example of one.

:D

Knifefighter

07-25-2003, 05:17 PM

I also am of the opinion that that tech is garbage. Let's see... we now have two BJJ purple belts and one brown (a total of probably at least 30 years of ground and grappling experience) who don't think that tech is worth a hill of beans and one WC guy who has added a bit of catch wrestling into his WC and thinks he knows the best way to escape the mount. I wonder who is right.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
MOVING HIS LEFT PUNCHING ARM OVER ACROSS HIS BODY TO HIS RIGHT - to be immediately followed by the right hand (specifically the palm of the hand) of the wing chun fighter onto the elbow of the assailant while holding his left wrist with your left hand lop sao... Bringing the arm across like this opens you up for an elbow to the face
.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
the assailant will nave NO CHOICE at this point than to POST on his right hand to avoid being completely thrown - AND HIS LEFT ELBOW IS NOW IN DANGER OF BEING LOCKED... It's actually your elbow that is in danger of being locked from here. Someone who is familiar with set-ups from the mount will have brought up his left knee under your right tricep and will snake his right arm through your's at the elbow, setting up the arm bar.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun the wing chun guy then starts to lift up his right leg (hooking the opponent's leg) far enough so that when he lets go of the opponent's elbow he can immediately grab the opponent's left leg near the ankle to bring that leg up over his head as he somersaults Again, someone who is familiar with the mount will have his knees up high. Lifting your leg up will have no effect and you will not be able to grab his leg because your arms are trapped above the knees.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
let it be an unpleasant surprise as to what happens at the very end of this technique....and have a nice day. Methinks it might be the WC guy who is in for an unpleasant surprise.

yuanfen

07-25-2003, 06:05 PM

Apparently this was at a TWC seminar and Phil just put up pictures of participants- as he said.

All kinds of people of differing abilities attend seminars. I dont think that Phil intended for the clip to show a definitive move.

Both guys seem to be somewhat sloppy- but it is just two
seminar attendees. What's the big deal.?

Its pretty easy to criticize clips.

Knifefighter

07-25-2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Its pretty easy to criticize clips. I don't know about the other guys, but I'm not criticizing the clips, per se. Rather, I am criticizing the technique that is being taught,as well as the techs that UWC is describing, as they violate some basic principles of how the mount is escaped, as well as maintained.

yuanfen

07-25-2003, 08:04 PM

Knifefighter- I was referring to Phil's comments not UWC.
Its not clear to me what was being taught from Phil's comments.

You are not in wing chun and I dont know how much you know about the diversity in wing chun... but the point is that IMO there is no standard "wing chun"response. Things vary with lineage and individuals.

The brief clip looks sloppy but seminars draw people of varying skills and abilities. No big deal really.

John Weiland

07-25-2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
You are not in wing chun and I dont know how much you know about the diversity in wing chun... but the point is that IMO there is no standard "wing chun"response. Things vary with lineage and individuals.

The statement there is no standard wing chun response stands on its own without the mention of lineage and individuals. :)

The brief clip looks sloppy but seminars draw people of varying skills and abilities. No big deal really.
Yeah. No big deal. There aren't a lot of Wing Chun video clips by whatever spelling or lineage that show much of Wing Chun let alone of grappling. It's good to share and receive feedback.

The original post shows the integrity of the poster especially in the face of the inevitable sniping.

Regards,

TjD

07-26-2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by John Weiland

The statement there is no standard wing chun response stands on its own without the mention of lineage and individuals. :)

wile its true that for any situation there is "no standard wing chun response," for each individual, in a situation there >>IS<< a correct wing chun response.

from my own (mabye lacking) knowledge, what was going on in that clip was not the correct wing chun response - for that situation . and like i said in my post, this was probably because both people doing the drill had become sloppy after practicing it over and over. the guy on top was just letting the guy on the bottom do whatever he wanted. since the guy on top was being sloppy in this way, the guy on the bottom got sloppy because he could get away with doing the drill without proper mechanics.

this is not a comment on the skill of either person demonstrating in that clip. they could be (and mabye are) fantastic WC people, however by the point where that clip had been filmed they had gotten lazy. this makes it pretty impossible to judge how well that technique will work as the situation had gotten extremely far from anything even resembling real life.

so either way, from what was shown and my lack of groundfighting knowledge, i don't know if the technique would work. however from my knoweldge of wing chun and body mechanics, as it is shown on the clip, that wont work (on either end). i'd have to try it (or see it) against an (at least somewhat) resisting opponent to know that.

overall: i appreciate what phil is doing with his site, i think WC can work very well on the ground, UWC should probably calm down a little and realize that while william cheung is very good at wing chun, he is still human like the rest of us; and i need some sleep.

John Weiland

07-26-2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by TjD
while its true that for any situation there is "no standard wing chun response," for each individual, in a situation there >>IS<< a correct wing chun response.

There is no formulaic Wing Chun response to any given situation. The response will be dictated by sensitivity and timing.

The "he does this and I do that" scenarios are just karate overlayed on the word Wing Chun, and IMO not representative of ideal Wing Chun.

There is as you point out, one best response, but it's always unique to the specific situation, not a given, because multiple responses are almost always possible, even in demonstrations.

Regards,

Ultimatewingchun

07-26-2003, 04:56 PM

Knifefighter:

I first started to learn Catch wrestling in 1962...very intensely for about three years...was involved in many real streetfights (in NYC) throughout the sixties that frequently ended with someone getting pummulled with punches after being mounted...began with Catch again several years ago along with using and working against the mount, the guard etc....

as the BJJ guys and others in the UFC and Pride use them.

Now what I'm saying is that regardless of where he trys to position his knee (ie. - near my tricep) - if he mounts AND THEN IMMEDIATELY begins to throw down rounded punches toward my face...

I already discussed other types of mount scenarios on this thread - but if he does what I just described - the TWC move I described...WHICH IS DIFFERENT SIGNIFICANTLY IN MANY WAYS then what was demonstrated on that tape...what I described is ONE way of escaping THIS PARTICULAR MOUNT SCENARIO...

No...it's his elbow that is in jeopardy because the bil/bil grab at his wrist and my other palm pressuring the back of his punching elbow is done so fast...there's no way he could elbow strike me.

They key to THIS PARTICULAR scenario is the commitment he places on that rounded punch coming down at me - if he's seriously committed the easier it is for the technique I've described to work...if he is more cautious, throws the punch more like a jabbing motion, and then immediately withdraws it to throw the other hand or to try some other kind of maneuver...then my response has to change into something else....

Not that I'm saying that escaping the mount is easy - because it is a very precarious position to be in, to be sure...

but there are ways to escape that are frequently successful.

As regards his knee: once you understand and agree...(if you ever agree) ...that I can counter his committed rounded punch with what I've described - to the point where I now have my left hand gripping his left wrist tightly (AND BEGIN TWISTING IT) - and with my right palm (with the right elbow directly behind it) completely covering and pressuring his left elbow WHILE BRIDGING THE RIGHT SIDE OF MY BODY AND HIPS UP AND TO MY LEFT...

even if his knee was near my tricep...true I won't hook left leg when I lift my right leg (precisely because it's far up near my tricep).... but nonetheless I will be able to create enough space (if all went well up to now) to let go of his elbow (which is now no longer close enough to strike me and use my right hand to hook under the back-of-his-knee area and begin the semi-somersault.. ALL THE WHILE HOLDING ONTO AND PULLING AND TWISTING HIS LEFT WRIST ...which now means that his left arm is being stretched between his own legs ...as he is being forced to post on his right hand/arm to avoid being completely forced face down onto the floor, as I begin to take his back

...WHILE STILL SECURING HIS LEFT ARM BY THE WRIST.... one of the unpleasant surprises is that his left elbow is in serious danger of being lokcked (barred) by his own front midsection...not to mention the fact that I can now start pummelling the back of his head with punches with my right fist.

jmd161

07-26-2003, 07:21 PM

All i have to say about that video is.

:rolleyes:

If that's the answer we in kung fu have to grappling then lord help us.

jeff:)

Miles Teg

07-27-2003, 04:42 AM

Well looing at the technique used Im not sure. I dont understand the mechanics that threw the guy off the top. He takes some energy by blocking the swing on the inside and then with the same arm goes to the outside.

Ive never given this much thought before but since watching the clip done that way I got to thinking what might work better.

The guy on the top swings and the guy underneath does a type of inside block. The moment the arm makes contact with the swing the blocking arm absorbs alot of energy. This is when the guy on the top's balance will momentarily be compromised. As the enrgy of the swing will make one side of his body inclined toward the same side that he is punching with. So you wouldnt want to roll the guy off on the side used on the clip but the other side. The guy on the bottom should block on the inside like he did then stamp is opposite foot (left foot) and pushwhile using his left arm to help push the guy off to the side.

Does that make any sense? I dont think I explained it well. If any of you with good grappling experience could offer me a comment that would be appreciated as I have hardly any grappling experience. Is it valid?

The wing chun answer of thrusting your fingers into the mounter's eyes is, in my opinion a little naive. I think the guy on top has a much better vantage point for attacking the eyes. He/she would also be in a better position to dodge an attack to the eyes than someone whose head is pretty much stuck to the ground.

Merryprankster

07-27-2003, 06:27 AM

Ah, so now we're trolls because we disagree with you? Nice cop out.

I read and understood your explanation. I don't buy it. You're supposed to lock the elbow in TRANSITION without tight control of his upper body?

Low Percentage. I'll take something a little less hit or miss.

At some point in the reasonably near future (in the next quarter-year), I will be more than happy to take you up on your offer of finding out what you are talking about for myself, PROVIDED you stop being so dang defensive. If I come up and your goal is to "show me what's what," I'm out of there. If you want to explore some concepts, situations, similarities, and differences, that's a different issue.

I really don't know what the problem here is.... people tell me BJJ takedowns and striking suck all the time and I say, "Yes, Yes they do."

jmd161

07-27-2003, 07:17 AM

Why is it always that ppl from kung fu talk about a gouge to the eyes or strike to the eyes is going to stop someone in the mounted postion?

Have any of you that say that ever tried it with someone in the mounted postion that knows what they're doing?

It obvious that you have'nt because you would never say that if you had.The person in the mounts face is almost unreachable.The mount makes it that way,but they can reach your face with ease.It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.The rest of the centerline is exposed to you while their in the mount and well within reach.I'm not bashing Wing Chun i'm just surprised for all the centerline stuff you do that ppl say gouge or strike the eyes.

That has a very slim chance of working against a experienced grappler in the mount.For the record i study Black Tiger kung fu in case anyone thought i was a grappler.

jeff:)

Ultimatewingchun

07-27-2003, 12:57 PM

Phil Redmond:

I feel like I'm trying to rescue a drowning horse in terms of the technique shown on this video - even though I know that in a certain kind of race it's a thoroughbred...

Perhaps when you come to New Jersey next month to do some training with myself and Keith we can redo this technique on tape and put it up on your website?

Either some folks don't understand my explanation of how and why that punch is being neutralized, setting up a reversal...or they don't want to understand.

Whatever it is, probably the best thing to do is re-tape the move.

Phil Redmond

07-27-2003, 05:48 PM

Victor,
The funny thing is that a video, (which should have been on the seminar page), of 2 beginners trying to do a technique they just learned minutes earlier and having a little fun, caused so much fuss.
My expertise is standup fighting. Hopefully if I do get to the ground I'll be able to get back on my feet. Thanks for the ground fighting experts input on the subject though.

yuanfen

07-27-2003, 05:52 PM

JMD 161 sez:

It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.

((JMD_ come on: you are responding to a file ona website-thanks to Phil's sharing of a seminar participation shot. Why are you generalizing about wing chun? Wing Chun does not give knee jerk uniform answers to every situation)))

That has a very slim chance of working against a experienced grappler in the mount.For the record i study Black Tiger kung fu in case anyone thought i was a grappler.

((Black Tiger-? Know nothing about it- but I wouldnt generalize about it based on your post))

Yuanfen and the Bengal Tiger!

Edmund

07-27-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by jmd161
The person in the mounts face is almost unreachable.The mount makes it that way,but they can reach your face with ease.It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.The rest of the centerline is exposed to you while their in the mount and well within reach.

What's within reach? You want to grab his nuts or something?
That's even lamer than the poke to the eyes! Don't show your ignorance of WC centerline principles.

As soon as you reach down with one hand, he's got a chance to unload two hands on your face.

Miles Teg

07-27-2003, 07:10 PM

Edmund
Yeah but the guy on the top has the freedom to move out of the way or out of reach. The person on the bottom doesnt. The truth is if you have been mounted you are in trouble. It doesnt always seem so in events like UFC or Pride but thats because the floor surface is relatively springy. In more realistic scenarios the floor could be concrete or soemthing. That means if the mounter lands a punch your head will aborb all the energy because it is backed up by solid ground. Another thing the mounter could do is grab your ears and slam your head against the concrete. It wouldnt ake many of those before it was good night nurse.

Phil Redmond

07-27-2003, 07:31 PM

I studied Fu Jow Pai, which is from Haak Fu Mun, from Ng Wai Hong who learned from Wong Moon Toi. Are they the same systems?

Edmund

07-27-2003, 08:00 PM

Miles,

I'm not saying that the poke to the eyes is any good.
I'm saying that attacking his nuts is lame. They are *both* lame.
I agree being mounted is trouble.

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Edmund
Yeah but the guy on the top has the freedom to move out of the way or out of reach. The person on the bottom doesnt. The truth is if you have been mounted you are in trouble. It doesnt always seem so in events like UFC or Pride but thats because the floor surface is relatively springy. In more realistic scenarios the floor could be concrete or soemthing. That means if the mounter lands a punch your head will aborb all the energy because it is backed up by solid ground. Another thing the mounter could do is grab your ears and slam your head against the concrete. It wouldnt ake many of those before it was good night nurse.

Miles Teg

07-27-2003, 09:22 PM

I see I miss read you post - sorry

Edmund

07-27-2003, 09:54 PM

No Prob.
I think the hip bump and throw his leg over your head technique is not going to work in a real situation.

Maybe they should try something else after grabbing the left hand. When the bottom guy hauls the left hand to his left and bumps his hips up, maybe he can use his right hand to push down on the top guy's left knee.

Rather than roll left expecting the top guy to fall flat onto his stomach, the bottom guy can try roll to his right side as he pushes down on the knee and pulls his right leg out.

Once he has his right leg out, he can try hold the top guy's left hand with both hands and take his back.

Merryprankster

07-28-2003, 02:36 AM

The funny thing is that a video, (which should have been on the seminar page), of 2 beginners trying to do a technique they just learned minutes earlier and having a little fun, caused so much fuss.

Well, that's why I'm more than willing to explore this with UWC at some point. All I got was yelled at for expressing my opinion though so hey :rolleyes: .

Ultimatewingchun

07-28-2003, 02:38 PM

Merryprankster:

No need for yelling on my part or talk of garbage or crap on your part. If you ever want to stop by and discuss and/or work with me concerning the moves in question I'm sure we can treat each other like gentlemen.

Victor Parlati

jmd161

07-28-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
((Black Tiger-? Know nothing about it- but I wouldnt generalize about it based on your post))

yuanfen,

I did say i was not trying to bash Wing Chun. I was surprised that the person went for the face.The face in a mount is pretty much out of reach.

Well here's a link to a post i made on Black Tiger style.

Information On Black Tiger Style (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18492)

Originally posted by Edmund
What's within reach? You want to grab his nuts or something?

Edmund,

Is the centerline just the face and the groin?

If you think so?

Then you're showing your ignorance of WC centerline principles.

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I studied Fu Jow Pai, which is from Haak Fu Mun, from Ng Wai Hong who learned from Wong Moon Toi. Are they the same systems?

Phil Redmond,

No i do not study Fu Jow Pai or Shantung Black Tiger.

I study Hak Fu Moon the style created by Su Hak Fu (Soo). One of the "Ten Tigers Of Canton" with Wong Khei Yin the father of Wong Fei Hung.My Sigung Wong Cheung Learned it from Fung Ping-Wai a former Shaolin Monk.

Here's Grandmaster Wong Cheung

http://www.geocities.com/jmd161/Animation5.gif

Here's a old pic of my Sifu from a MA Magazine

http://www.geocities.com/jmd161/Animation2.gif

Jeff:)

Edmund

07-28-2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by jmd161

Edmund,

Is the centerline just the face and the groin?

If you think so?

Then you're showing your ignorance of WC centerline principles.

Lame comeback. Don't teach WC to me. You don't even do WC.

You see anyone here telling you how to do Black Tiger?

Man, what arrogance. You want to attack the rest of the centerline while being mounted and call it WC. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Let me enlighten you about WC so you don't give more ignorant WC advice:
When someone can reach your face with both hands, you cannot lower your guard from your head level to attack whatever you feel like. That is violation of the WC centerline principle. Until you get hand control of them you can't lower your hands. It would give them a free path to your head.

Maybe Black Tigers don't know that sort of stuff.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 05:20 PM

Man, what arrogance. You want to attack the rest of the centerline while being mounted and call it WC. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Errrrrrrr

I don't remember calling my attacking the centerline WC.

I don't need you to tell me anything about Wing Chun.It's obvious you don't know much about it yourself!

Nevermind bro!

I don't even want to continue this debate with you.

jeff:)

TjD

07-28-2003, 05:23 PM

the centerline really isn't about what targets you strike at.

Edmund

07-28-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by jmd161

Errrrrrrr

I don't remember calling my attacking the centerline WC.

I don't need you to tell me anything about Wing Chun.It's obvious you don't know much about it yourself!

Nevermind bro!

I don't even want to continue this debate with you.

jeff:)

You got no grounds to advise WC people on applying their own principles or debate me on the interpretation of WC principles.

How could you have any physical WC abilities at all beyond a beginner? Yet you still go on about WC theory as if you know them better than me...

Merryprankster

07-29-2003, 02:36 AM

Hi, see, this is why jmd is on my ignore list.

UWC,

Please read what I've said through my postings, that CLIP is garbage. I even outlined exactly what I thought was wrong with it and your explanation. I've fully admitted that subsequent showings by people with more ability might prove me wrong. I don't think this is an unreasonable stance.

I've not cast aspertions on your grandmaster, your sifu, your style or anything else. I've fussed a bit about a clip, and gave very specific thoughts on why, not just "WC groundfighting sucks." The closest I came to insulting anybody was remarking that not sparring live against people who know what they are doing produce those sorts of results--and that was BEFORE I realized they were beginners at a seminar.

Again, sorry if I upset you, but I think it's important to quibble about that distinction.

jmd161

07-29-2003, 08:34 AM

Merryprankster,

You seem to post that alot,but end up in every thread i'm replying to telling ppl i'm on your ignore list.

Man get over it!

Fine you don't care for what i'm saying.So keep my name out of your post.

Anyway back to the me not knowing Wing Chun principles.First off i stated in that post i was not bashing wing chun.I thought the guy in the mount was open for a centerline attack and was merely stating that.

Originally posted by jmd161
It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.The rest of the centerline is exposed to you while their in the mount and well within reach.I'm not bashing Wing Chun i'm just surprised for all the centerline stuff you do that ppl say gouge or strike the eyes.

Now that is what i posted.I really don't see where i was trying to tell someone how to do their Wing Chun.I just stated that i thought the rest of the center line was open.Also he was very high in the mount and not locked in there were other things that could have been done.Now i do admit i was refering to two different things in that post and maybe it came across wrong.I was upset because kung fu ppl always talk about a gouge to the eyes in that position.That is easier said than done.

jeff:)

joy chaudhuri

07-29-2003, 09:06 AM

jmd16
Correct . Folks get stuck on gouging etc.
The guy at the bottom has many kinds of wing chun based choices,
depending on what the guy on top is doing.
You dont mechanically depend on a fixed technique.

jmd161

07-29-2003, 09:34 AM

joy chaudhuri,

Thank you!

That's all i was trying to say.

If it came across the wrong way? Then i'm sorry to all the Wing Chun ppl i offended! I was just trying to say there were other options.

jeff:)

joy chaudhuri

07-29-2003, 10:34 AM

JMD161-
No offense taken- on this side anyway.

jmdrake

07-30-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Victor,
The funny thing is that a video, (which should have been on the seminar page), of 2 beginners trying to do a technique they just learned minutes earlier and having a little fun, caused so much fuss.
My expertise is standup fighting. Hopefully if I do get to the ground I'll be able to get back on my feet. Thanks for the ground fighting experts input on the subject though.

Hello Phil,

I think the reason this has caused so much "fuss" is that there is precious little information on Wing Chun on the ground. So this is probably the "best" Wing Chun mount escape most people have seen. Some of the BJJ mount escapes I've seen on the net don't look that hot either. Take this one for example:

http://www.royharris.com/techniques/bjj/mount1.htm

Nothing wrong with the technique, but the guy on top is clearly not resisting. To be fair this webpage has a disclaimer that the guy on top is staying upright so that you can better see the arm postition of the guy on the bottom. But it looks like he could easily get clobbered by the guy on top if he chose to do so. Now check this site:

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/mountescape/

To borrow a phrase this one looks more "alive". The guy on top looks like he's giving more resistance and the one on bottom is actually working a cover. I hope you and Victor can get together soon and do a better demo that shows real resistence from the guy on top. Of course some people still won't be convinced unless you film it in the octogon. ;)

Regards,

John M. Drake

reneritchie

07-30-2003, 10:49 AM

John,

1. Wing Chun does not historically have ground fighting in its generational transmissions. Any ground fighting found nowadays is either an attempted extrapolation of standing principals to the ground, or an attempted integration of existing ground fighting from other methods. Neither, or the absence of both, on their own are good or bad, and the end results will tell.

2. Roy Harris is showing a basic shrimp escape from the mount which is *highly* effective for either sport BJJ or Sub Grappling, and very narrowly effective in Vale Tudo (unless you're in exactly the right circumstances, you will get pounded as you try it.)

3. Gene is essentially showing the same escape.

4. In real life, seldom will paint by numbers techniques work but an understanding of the situation developed through experience and training, with the sensitivity and awareness that comes with it will allow spontaneous transitions that will usually get the job done (this is the same for any art, be it as old as the wisdom "fake left to go right").

Merryprankster

07-30-2003, 11:20 AM

Roy Harris is showing a basic shrimp escape from the mount which is *highly* effective for either sport BJJ or Sub Grappling, and very narrowly effective in Vale Tudo (unless you're in exactly the right circumstances, you will get pounded as you try it.)

Not exactly true. Use your hands to cover your face, use your hip bump to disrupt the guy, and execute the escape using your knees and elbows. Disrupting their balance really takes the oomph out of the shots. It's getting stuck there that causes problems!

I too hope to see a better vid clip so I can understand what's going on more thoroughly.

reneritchie

07-30-2003, 11:54 AM

MP,

In VT, would you recommend it over bridging or going out the back?

Merryprankster

07-30-2003, 12:00 PM

It really just depends on the situation. They all work fine. I personally find that good people won't let you bridge or come out the back door very often... so that kinda leaves you to the shrimp.

However, you shrimp in conjunction with the bridging--throws their balance forward giving you a chance to create the space to at least get back to guard.

reneritchie

07-30-2003, 12:26 PM

MP,

Thanks. The thin guys seem to shrimp well, the big guys bridge, the really good guys get the transitional escapes and I wonder what the heck they're doing ;)

As I've said, tho, I don't worry about mount as much as side control, with the knees, elbows, etc...

Especially from this dude...

KenWingJitsu

07-30-2003, 12:50 PM

lol Rene.

man, you guys are funny.

Let me put it to you the KWJ way...................if you're mounted and your trying to do some chop socky Sheit, you're gonna get yo' elbow broke. Gouge his eyes/break his elbow.....my ar$e. You first and ONLY priority is to ESCAPE. The person who can do the damege is the one on top.:cool:

reneritchie

07-30-2003, 01:08 PM

KWJ, laugh all ya want, that big dude's in your and MP's (absolute) division... ;)

(And, of course, you're correct).

Merryprankster

07-31-2003, 03:25 AM

Yeah, transitions are the biggest part.

Eh, yeah, that's a big guy. Tough to deal with. But it's FUN to do that kind of stuff!

Attributes matter!

jmdrake

07-31-2003, 07:11 AM

Rene you are missing the point! I already said that both people were essentially doing the same escape! But one was showing the escape without doing any resistance. The other was using resistance. You can clearly see from the second set of photos that it should work, but you CAN'T see that from the first set of photos. You accept that it works because you've SEEN it work under fully resisting conditions. For people to believe that the move shown on Phil's site works they'll have to see it pulled off under fully resistive conditions. Do you understand what I'm saying now?

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by reneritchie
John,

1. Wing Chun does not historically have ground fighting in its generational transmissions. Any ground fighting found nowadays is either an attempted extrapolation of standing principals to the ground, or an attempted integration of existing ground fighting from other methods. Neither, or the absence of both, on their own are good or bad, and the end results will tell.

2. Roy Harris is showing a basic shrimp escape from the mount which is *highly* effective for either sport BJJ or Sub Grappling, and very narrowly effective in Vale Tudo (unless you're in exactly the right circumstances, you will get pounded as you try it.)

3. Gene is essentially showing the same escape.

4. In real life, seldom will paint by numbers techniques work but an understanding of the situation developed through experience and training, with the sensitivity and awareness that comes with it will allow spontaneous transitions that will usually get the job done (this is the same for any art, be it as old as the wisdom "fake left to go right").

jmdrake

07-31-2003, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Not exactly true. Use your hands to cover your face, use your hip bump to disrupt the guy, and execute the escape using your knees and elbows. Disrupting their balance really takes the oomph out of the shots. It's getting stuck there that causes problems!

I too hope to see a better vid clip so I can understand what's going on more thoroughly.

MP I agree. I'm no BJJ expert, but on the clip from the Roy Harris site it looks like the guy on top could easily clobber the guy on bottom because he drops his face cover. And he can drop his face cover because he's really not getting any resistence from the guy on top. But the photo series from the BJJ.org site shows resistence from the guy on top and consequently good covering from the guy on bottom as he works the escape. As Rene said it's the same technique, but in one case it's excuted MUCH better than in the other case. Indeed that's the point I was making!

Regards,

John M. Drake

Phil Redmond

07-31-2003, 08:52 AM

The grappling experts here say that a technique is not done properly based on a photo or mpeg. For instance some said that the mount was done incorrectly. I've seen street fighters with no training mount this way. Would the techinque be effective against someone who didn't know how to mount properly and was punching wildly in anger? You know, like the kind of encounter you would most likey see in the street. Also, people have said this and that would happen based on a photo/video clip. How many UFC/Pride, etc. fights have we seen where one person was obviously losing then turn around and win. There are too many X factors in a real fight.
Anyway, I have removed the mpeg and will wait until I have some more experience with ground fighting before I put up another example of groundfighting. My kung fu brother Keith Mazza, who has fought in these types of events, is going to give me an insight into groundfighting when I visit his school in NJ next month.

russellsherry

07-31-2003, 06:30 PM

hi guys you know big joy i am going to get into trouble for this
but is my sifu "S first book , sil lim toa i love what masters fongs
says about this , don"t get on the ground in the first place , but i don"t agree about what rene said about wing chun not haveing ground fighting if you know bill jee this also leads to ground fighting peace russellsherry

reneritchie

07-31-2003, 07:38 PM

Phil,

Almost anything can work against a smaller, weaker, less experienced or ignorant attacker. Know those "Ninja" demos where the opponent throws a reverse punch and the "Ninja" catches it with his chin, twists, and the opponent flies through the air?

I prefer bread and butter stuff that will be high(er) percentage against a bigger, stronger, equally experienced (more is tough) person.

Russel,

You can disagree all you like, but I doubt you can point to a historic example of Wing Chun Kuen being used in a ground fighting situation like you could with Judo, BJJ, etc.

captain

08-04-2003, 05:51 AM

go to a judo gym.tell the instructor that you do wing chun,but would like to "up" your ground game.believe me,ground/grapple
guys are far more friendly than you may imagine.certainly easier
to approach than most wck instructors ive met.[on average].
then, when you randori [spar under pressure] a bit,the never
ending ground hog day threads of:"i do wck,but what if im grabbed
or grounded?",will no longer cause you anxiety.dont know if r and r and merryprankster would agree,but no art is %100 the whole
package.but,its no humiliation [or admitance that your fave art is
woefully incomplete] to study two arts that address different facets of a fight.you may even find a judo/bjj teacher that also does stand up/strikes based arts himself.i did.go forth my warrior!

Russell.
ps.and if grounded,never forget your legs.

reneritchie

08-04-2003, 08:17 AM

Russ,

You're correct in my experience. No where near the attitude or problems of 'MA' people, probably because they don't have to pose or front or act tough, they're competing every day and know their level, so they can just relax and go out on the mats.

russellsherry

08-04-2003, 06:01 PM

dear,rene, ok one of my first sifu, was asked about this, by my senor carlo bassi, my sifu told him, wong shun leurng said.
wing chun does have throws and ground fighting even ln sigung wong"s video sifu wong , gets grabbed from behind palm strike"S to the groin and throws him , it is their, but what i will aggree with you becuase of our punching it is not taught openly . in sil lin toa the leurng ting people use the stance for anti grappling , this make:s more sense, to me in fact wing chun is supposed to be grabbingwithout grabbing the olny time i have ever , been on the ground i kicked the guy in the nuts and got up and ran their were others comeing .peace russell sherry oh and rene emin just might dissagrree as well shh