waste of time

[weightvest]

I am amazed at how many people in this forum judge arts by what they have seen in "competitions".

Let me just clarify: do you honestly, sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with their heart and soul, who have made it their way of life, who's skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend, are going to appear in a competition or magazine to promote their arts?

IMO, the ones who you don't see or hear about are the scary ones. Every arts has it's "behind closed doors" groups, who you will never have the privaledge of meeting.

i think to judge any art by its performers in competition is more naivity than progress, and a waste of time.

[rogue]

Let me just clarify: do you honestly, sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with their heart and soul, who have made it their way of life, who's skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend, are going to appear in a competition or magazine to promote their arts?
Yes. And I can comprehend quite a bit.

[Marky]

hey, ya can't trust anybody these days.

My question is, how can you be scared of someone you'll never see or hear? How do you know he/she exists? Whoa, my head hurts.

[Jook Lum]

Hello WeightVest!I agree with your comment`s.

[ewallace]

I don't find them any more scary then I do pro fighters who train anywhere between 4 and 10 hours a day. In fact, I find them less scary than the pro fighters, no matter what style. Why? Because they are in tremendous shape. You don't have to be an accomplished "master" to really do damage to someone.

Different people see different skills in different light.

[Jook Lum]

I agree in the sense that to many people judge a style by what is seen by magazines,movies,tournamentsetc.and believe that is all there is to a style or if a student is bad the style must be bad or the teacher(which can be true sometimes).Also many styles are watered down or made to look flashy to attract attention or customers.Many teachers have to make their training easier so they do not lose (they become fast food schools)students especially if that is how they make their living.The things above are usually avoided in a non-public(underground) school.I dont mean all public schools are bad,but quite a lot are.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't believe anyone's skill can go beyond what I can comprehend. I also don't believe that a high degree of skill makes you immune to the usual worldly concerns. You sound like you spend too much time licking toads and meditating upon crystal wands to me.

[themeecer]

I agree weightvest. I really don't see the originators of our styles, walking toward a ring with his family holding onto his shoulders. Problem is ... everyone that doesn't compete will claim to be one of these secret grand fighters.

[SevenStar]

I find it amazing that so many people judge arts by what the masters and grandmasters of a style were supposedly able to do. Like it really matters that they were 1309324.5 - 0 in challenge matches. What does that say about YOUR ability? Is your teacher capable of doing the things that your grandmasters were? If not, then why do you think that you will be able to?why did your grandmaster fight in challenge matches? How does that differ from the mma guys that do it?

Do you honestly believe that sport fighters have not made MA their life? I train 2.5 - 4 hours per day, 4-5 days a week, and that doesn't include gym time. I know MP, BS, suntzu and the other sport guys are doing the same. Imagine what pros do...

you think it's naive to judge an art based on how its competitors fare in competition, but you think it's okay to judge an art by it;s fighters whose fighting you have never seen? :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

I judge their effectivness by their reasons for training. Training for a sport is inferior to the monks and fighters of China that trained in order to defend their lives. If a fighter in the "octagon circle" looses he has a brusied ego. If the latter fighters lost, they died.

[SevenStar]

that's exactly the attitude I'm talking about... THEY fought for THEIR lives... are you? hell no. Consequently, I gurarantee you that you aren't training the way they did. And since you don't have to on a regular basis like some of them did, then you will never fight like them. That being the case, why use them to judge a style's effectiveness? You are basing your assumption on the style's history, which has no significant bearing on it's present or future states...

[themeecer]

Excuse me? I wasn't comparing myself to them. I was comparing masters of old to sport fighters.


That being the case, why use them to judge a style's effectiveness? You are basing your assumption on the style's history, which has no significant bearing on it's present or future states...

I disagree. The art of the old masters was refined to as near perfection as possible, because what didn't work basically got you killed. Kind of survival of the fittest. Do I want to go back to that? No, I don't. But do I want to study what they developed over hundreds of years of refining? Heck yeah. I'll take that any day over something that is "proven in the ring." And this is not to knock those that are in the ring, they are fabulous athletes. They are just not my cup of tea.

[shaolin kungfu]

It's foolish to place your faith in something just because some dude made it work 1000 years ago.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
It's foolish to place your faith in something just because some dude made it work 1000 years ago.

Ummm ... I hope you know how much you just contridicted yourself by saying that. Look at your board name.

[shaolin kungfu]

What contradiction?

I do shaolin because I have seen it work, I have made it work, and I like it. Not because the shaolin monks used it to defend their temples. So you see, no contradiction.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Because they are in tremendous shape. You don't have to be an accomplished "master" to really do damage to someone.

plus they are harder to hurt. i can hit hard. but there's only so much damage i can take.


seven ....


that's exactly the attitude I'm talking about... THEY ..... You are basing your assumption on the style's history, which has no significant bearing on it's present or future states...

dude your talking to a fu cking wall or a really funny troll. i think most people agree with you completely. it's wierd how they can get to you at first though.

themeecer ...

you still havent responded to me on my don't play with matches thread.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by themeecer
Excuse me? I wasn't comparing myself to them. I was comparing masters of old to sport fighters.



I disagree. The art of the old masters was refined to as near perfection as possible, because what didn't work basically got you killed. Kind of survival of the fittest. Do I want to go back to that? No, I don't. But do I want to study what they developed over hundreds of years of refining? Heck yeah. I'll take that any day over something that is "proven in the ring." And this is not to knock those that are in the ring, they are fabulous athletes. They are just not my cup of tea.

If you had a time machine, I bet we'd see that the real difference isn't in the art that they developed - it's in how they trained.

[themeecer]

But have you seen Shaolin win an UFC yet? How could you have picked Shaolin when Gracie's BJJ dominates the UFC? (No offense to those guys .. just using it as an example) (Actually I don't know if they still dominate .. it has been years since I watched any of those, they got boring)

[joedoe]

If one dude made an art work for him, that is good for him but doesn't mean that much. It means that he was a talented martial artist and/or a gifted fighter.

If a lot of dudes can make an art work, then that says a bit more about the art.

If the art consistently produces people who can use the art, then you would have to say that it has a good reputation. ;)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

But have you seen Shaolin win an UFC yet? How could you have picked Shaolin when Gracie's BJJ dominates the UFC? (No offense to those guys .. just using it as an example) (Actually I don't know if they still dominate .. it has been years since I watched any of those, they got boring)

at least that happened today and i can see a tape of it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

.... and i do a traditional style.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
themeecer ...

you still havent responded to me on my don't play with matches thread.

I wasn't going to at first. It is a HUGE turnoff to have someone communicate with me using so many obscenities. I normally don't give people like that the time of day. Then I thought, what the heck, you might have sincere questions among all that. So I typed out a long reply and lost it when I attempted to post, because the browser crashed. I did post something similar to that in the religion thread if you want to check that out.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i like vicoden.

[shaolin kungfu]

No i've never seen someon from a shaolin school win the ufc. I dont even think any shaolin guys have tried.

Quite honestly, I think if they did, they'd lose. The way most people train shaolin (at least within my own school, and probably within others, as well as other styles) is as a hobby. They dont have any incentive to train hard. They dont take the time outside of the school to train, and a couple hours a week is not enough to beat people who have made it their life. That and no ground game;).

I agree with sevenstar. It's not a problem with the style, it's a problem with the training.

[dezhen2001]

Excuse me? I wasn't comparing myself to them. I was comparing masters of old to sport fighters LOL at that sentence :D How exactly do you know what the masters of old did? How much is real and how much is stories told by young students (at the time) who could not comprehend what their teacher was doing?

An interesting thing: recently here in the UK there was a national San Shou comp, and shaolin monk Shi Yan Zi entered some of his students... they pretty much placed within the top 3 for most divisions, if not winning a few too :)

Anyway, agree with 7* and the others, but still respect kung fu people who DO train hard and test their skill :)

dawood

[truewrestler]

Let me just clarify: do you honestly, sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with their heart and soul, who have made it their way of life, who's skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend, are going to appear in a competition or magazine to promote their arts? Too bad "Lightening bolts from finger tips" was made illegal recently in the UFC. Once the masters practice shooting them out of their ass they may well enter the UFC.

[Suntzu]

LOL @ GDA....


Excuse me? I wasn't comparing myself to them. I was comparing masters of old to sport fighters. if most "MASTER's" marketing are correct... alot WERE sport fighters... winning countless amounts of challenges... roof top engagments... lei tai fights at 10 paces... etc... Police leagues... whatever else... they just didn't have PPV and cable Hotboxes... and in all honesty *I'd* rather learn under someone from the Beijing Athletic Institute's(or what ever it's called) san shou team than some starving skinny monk anyday... but that's me...

[Kristoffer]

I'd* rather learn under someone from the Beijing Athletic Institute's(or what ever it's called) san shou team than some starving skinny monk anyday



same here. The athletic Insitute have some great athletes.

[phantom]

I think another important point to consider is that sometimes years do not refine a style, they water it down. My sifu told me that the long fist being taught today is not the exact same style as was taught at the temple years ago. Shotokan and kyokushin originally contained many moves from judo in their curriculum, kyokushin also had moves from aikijitsu and yiquan, but those grappling techniques are just about lost in most modern day shotokan and kyokushin schools. Most people here in the United States these days study Yang style tai chi for its health benefits and downplay its self-defense aspects. Some of these people become teachers themselves, so now we have teachers with limited self-defense knowledge of Yang Tai chi.

[Brad]

I agree. A lot of stuff is going to be watered down because "masters" today don't have to kill or defend against bandits and stuff like that. Full contact sport fighting is probably one of the best ways to keep the fighting aspects of martial arts alive today.

[Merryprankster]

"Waste of Time"

You are indeed...

[red5angel]

I'd even go ****her then that brad and say "masters" today are often people who aren't really qualified to teach an art in the first place but don't have the patience to stick with learning before they get all the "glory" of teaching.

[old jong]

A waste of times is reading posts by guys who just scatched the surface of something but they already know enough about it to question its effectiveness and compare it to other things.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
"Waste of Time"

You are indeed...

Guys, why do you find the need to make rude comments like this when the original poster said nothing rude to you? In almost every thread on these boards I have seen this. It's a shame that we can't have a discussion here without someone making a comment like this. If there is some history behind this it might make a little more sense, but this attack seems out of the blue.

[Merryprankster]

Let me just clarify: do you honestly, sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with their heart and soul, who have made it their way of life, who's skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend, are going to appear in a competition or magazine to promote their arts?

I and the other sportive guys on here bust our asses day in and day out to develop the skills, the heart and the physical capacity to be the very, very best we can be at what we do. It takes more dedication, more drive, and more guts than anybody who doesn't do it can ever understand...

And I haven't even dug as deep as I have to go yet.

His comments were insulting and I, for one, am tired of listening to guys who don't put it on the line for the world to see bashing those of us who bust our asses and do.

[fa_jing]

A lot of the best teachers in TMA don't compete - anymore. Most if not all of them did compete when they were younger. Naturally as you get older, you become more proficient at the art and at teaching, but possibly less athletic. Fighting competitively in striking arts might not fit into your life as well either, when you get older. More power to the guys that do keep on going at it hard through their middle years, like Joe Lewis for instance. My sifu still goes at it with the young guys and he's 43 now, but he probably wouldn't compete publicly anymore.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by phantom
I think another important point to consider is that sometimes years do not refine a style, they water it down. My sifu told me that the long fist being taught today is not the exact same style as was taught at the temple years ago. Shotokan and kyokushin originally contained many moves from judo in their curriculum, kyokushin also had moves from aikijitsu and yiquan, but those grappling techniques are just about lost in most modern day shotokan and kyokushin schools. Most people here in the United States these days study Yang style tai chi for its health benefits and downplay its self-defense aspects. Some of these people become teachers themselves, so now we have teachers with limited self-defense knowledge of Yang Tai chi.

exactly.

[Merryprankster]

fa_jing,

What you said is true. But he insinuated that those doing it for sport aren't "living the life," and let me tell you, it's all we frickin' do. It's what we plan our lives around and what we argue with our girlfriends about.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
His comments were insulting and I, for one, am tired of listening to guys who don't put it on the line for the world to see bashing those of us who bust our asses and do.

He wasn't bashing the sport fighters. He was only bringing up what I see as a valid point. Everyone rushes to this style or that because they saw it on the UFC. It is almost like a fad fighting. And they overlook the 85 year old man that teaches out of his work shop in an apartment complex ...... ummmm, getting too much like the Karate Kid there. :D But hopefully you get my point.

If you find his mild comments insulting then you will find my stance on it as insulting, because I agree. I don't think we have seen the best of the best.

[Suntzu]

But he insinuated that those doing it for sport aren't "living the life," and let me tell you, it's all we frickin' do. It's what we plan our lives around and what we argue with our girlfriends about. ESPN should do a special... NOT on the dudes that get paid... but the 'regular joes'... film them at work... when they get out of bed(barely) all sore and sh!t... asking family for $$$ so they can get plane tickets... the girlfriend being all needy... the friends going out to party WITHOUT you... all the gawdd@mn salads and gallons of water...

[themeecer]

Stop it Suntzu, you're about to make me cry. :D

[rogue]

The art of the old masters was refined to as near perfection as possible, because what didn't work basically got you killed. Kind of survival of the fittest. Oh please. If these old masters were fighting in so many death matches to perfect that skill they'd be dead within their first couple of fights. Unless they fought only those who couldn't fight.


Do I want to go back to that? No, I don't. But do I want to study what they developed over hundreds of years of refining? Heck yeah. And how do you know that your sifu knows this ancient refined fighting? Was he a champion ring fighter? A well known street-fighter(aka thug)? Or maybe a forms champion?

[Merryprankster]

do you honestly, sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with their heart and soul, who have made it their way of life, who's skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend, are going to appear in a competition or magazine to promote their arts?

Bull**** he WAS bashing sport fighters. Reading for comprehension...

Do I sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with all their heart and soul...who have made it their way of life....whose skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend... Do I believe they'd get in a ring and prove it?

You bet your ass I do.

Magazines? Not so much.

Point being, he basically said "These sport fighters--they aren't so much. Not so dedicated or as competant as the TRULY great."

Who I'm assuming study in a cave in a mountain or something.

Hey, there are probably guys out there who don't compete that would kick ass but choose not too, and that's fine. But to belittle sportive competitors by insinuating that they don't make it "their way of life," is crap... it's ALL WE DO.

[Suntzu]

:D sorry... i'm just really really hungry............. and broke...

[themeecer]

Get you a sign that says "Will kick for food."

[rogue]

Suntzu, you know darn well that guys like you, MP and 7* are living large. Limos, hot tubs, and all those ring girls running around your estates wearing nothing but bikninis. Regular Joe my tushy! :p

[Suntzu]

you must be really really hungry too... ;D :D

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Do I sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with all their heart and soul...who have made it their way of life....whose skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend... Do I believe they'd get in a ring and prove it?

You bet your ass I do.

No I don't believe they would. Not all of us feel we have something to prove. I prefer the humble teacher that walks with his head bowed versus the one that feels he is the "silverback," beating his chest and showing off all the trophys he's won in the ring.

You enjoy what you do, more power to you. That's the important thing.


Originally posted by Merryprankster
But to belittle sportive competitors by insinuating that they don't make it "their way of life," is crap... it's ALL WE DO.

And you in turn insulted those who choose not to compete competively. It is also "our way of life."

[themeecer]

Originally posted by rogue
Suntzu, you know darn well that guys like you, MP and 7* are living large. Limos, hot tubs, and all those ring girls running around your estates wearing nothing but bikninis. Regular Joe my tushy! :p
Ummmmmmm ... scratch my above comments. I'm going to get into sport fighting. ;)

[MasterKiller]

I would venture to say that not every sport fighter has the gusto of you guys. To say EVERY sport-fighter trains hard is just as big a fallacy as saying all CMA don't.

In any group of individuals, 10% of those individuals will put in the time and dedication to succeed. The rest will not. W.E.B. DuBois called it the "talented tenth" when referencing that 10% who actually graduate from college, but the same holds true for any discipline, be it work, school, or martial training.

Most CMA are customers. 10% are students.

[Merryprankster]

Reading for comprehension, yet again.

When asked if I think the guys who devote their lives to this stuff WOULD compete, the answer is yes. I never once said they had to or I wouldn't believe it.

[MasterKiller]

But to belittle sportive competitors by insinuating that they don't make it "their way of life," is crap... it's ALL WE DO.

Perhaps this should read "It's all I do," otherwise, it's a sweeping generalization.

[dwid]

Meecer:


No I don't believe they would. Not all of us feel we have something to prove. I prefer the humble teacher that walks with his head bowed versus the one that feels he is the "silverback," beating his chest and showing off all the trophys he's won in the ring.

I think you have a common misunderstanding of what competitive martial artists are like. Honestly, I've been around lots of different kinds of martial artists, and the MMA guys were some of the most humble and realistic (by which I mean they didn't constantly go off on flights of fantasy about MA super powers or anything). I've primarily done traditional training, but the assumption you make does a disservice to MMA guys.

Also, the trouble with preferring the "humble" guy is sometimes its hard to tell the humble guy with skills from the con man who hides from competition for fear it will reveal his lack of skills.

[Merryprankster]

MasterKiller,

Fair enough. I was thinking more of the competitors who do it regularly, not the ones that just sort of go every now and again.

Any way my point is that some of the very best in the world do compete.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Suntzu
ESPN should do a special... NOT on the dudes that get paid... but the 'regular joes'... film them at work... when they get out of bed(barely) all sore and sh!t... asking family for $$$ so they can get plane tickets... the girlfriend being all needy... the friends going out to party WITHOUT you... all the gawdd@mn salads and gallons of water...

Actually, MSNBC did a special on this not too long ago. They interviewed some of the legitimate local-level MMA competitors and promoters, and some of the ones that are running illegal competitions as well. One of my coaches, Eddy Rolon, had an interview segment as part of it.

[Suntzu]

:eek: :o :mad: i don't have cable...

[Knifefighter]

- That the "masters" of yesterday were better than the high level practioners of today. Every human performance parameter is much higher today than it was 50, 100, or 500 years ago. Fighting is somehow different? Give me a break.

- That there are people locked away who do "secret training" who would decimate those who contstantly test their skills against a wide variety of others. As with just about any endeavor, those who practice martial arts in cloistered secrecy will have a very hard time competing against those who are out accomplishing things in the real world.

[Merryprankster]

Now now, stop talking sense, KF.

[themeecer]

My money is on Wang Lang or General Yueh Fei vs. Hoyce Gracie any day of the week.

[truewrestler]

themeecer, I'll take Royce by additional nails in their coffins

[Chang Style Novice]

" My money is on Wang Lang or General Yueh Fei vs. Hoyce Gracie any day of the week. "

:rolleyes:

This has got to be the idlest, most pointless speculation I've ever seen, short of "could Mighty Mouse beat up the Hulk?"

Toadlicking crystalgazers of the world unite!

[dezhen2001]

Mighty Mouse coz hes small and fast :D:rolleyes:

sometimes the treads on KFO truly amaze me...

dawood

[MasterKiller]

Hulk would win cuz he trains the way he fights. Mighty Mouse is all about "power generation" and hocus pocus.

[Suntzu]

now this is good time wasting... mighty mouse by rear naked choke... Hulk can't handle the speed of the lil rodent...

[dezhen2001]

how the heck could mighty mouse get his arms around the hulks NECK?

dawood :D

[Suntzu]

he's nice like that...

[dezhen2001]

:confused:

this has to be THE weirdest discussion ive ever had on KFO lol!

dawood

[red5angel]

no, I think the discussion about GDA's rotting orbs was probably the weirdest discussion on KFO.

[FatherDog]

"Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted."
-Christopher Lee

[SevenStar]

that really is idiotic... it's common knowledge that saruman would kick dracula's arse.

[MasterKiller]

Count Dooku would take both of them.

[SevenStar]

yoda would destroy them all.

[themeecer]

I was being serious in my post above, even though it had to be hypothetical. But since we are up to Yoda beating them all ... I have to come up with something that can beat master Yoda. Hmmmmmm.......








I'm stumped.

[themeecer]

Oh I have one.

Andre the Giant, the 8th wonder of the world!!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

no, I think the discussion about GDA's rotting orbs was probably the weirdest discussion on KFO.

the gda appreciation thread. i made sure it wasn't lacking in the detail department.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i bet if wang and hoyce knew people were betting they'd get right on it.

[yenhoi]

This is no longer KFO. THis forum is kungfumagazine!

Kungfuonline is REALITY combat oriented....

:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

"I was being serious in my post above, even though it had to be hypothetical. "

I know! That's what makes it so funny!

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by themeecer
I was being serious in my post above, even though it had to be hypothetical.

Yes, but you're stupid, so no one has bothered to take you seriously.

[shaolin kungfu]

The funniest stuff is always meant to be serious.:D

[themeecer]

"I was being serious in my post above, even though it had to be hypothetical. "

I know! That's what makes it so funny!


Originally posted by FatherDog
Yes, but you're stupid, so no one has bothered to take you seriously.

Ok, that was real mature FatherDog. Two can play at that game. I'm stupid, :rolleyes: but your momma dresses you funny. http://www.princeton.edu/~moraski2/dave10.jpg

I stand on what I said earlier. I find it so funny that you actually think a sport fighter can come anywhere near the skill of fighters of old whose style whole systems were built on. We have become a generation of soft people. We drive around trying to find the closest parking spot to the door so we don't have to walk far. We have to have our air conditioners or we burn up. I recently ran a conditioning class outside and we had people dropping like flies because it was too hot. We require gatoraide and supplements. Most don't know the meaning of eating bitter. You can have your sport fighting and your UFCs ... I'll stick with studying the ways of old.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm really drunk, stoned, and have been popping vicoden all night for my ribs, but i was actually with you for a second. i agree we are pampered whinny bit ches. i was with ya all up until
You can have your sport fighting and your UFCs ... I'll stick with studying the ways of old.

wtf does that have to do with how easy we have it? even remotely?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you made me respond to you. good troll.

[themeecer]

That's ok .. I'm on your other thread with all the funny prank calls. A nice diversion after looking at decapitations in your other thread.

[ewallace]

We have become a generation of soft people. We drive around trying to find the closest parking spot to the door so we don't have to walk far. We have to have our air conditioners or we burn up. I recently ran a conditioning class outside and we had people dropping like flies because it was too hot. We require gatoraide and supplements. Most don't know the meaning of eating bitter. You can have your sport fighting and your UFCs ...

We are also a generation that has bigger, faster, stronger athletes and athletic performance knowledge is better than at any other time period.

If you believe that a system is complete and there is nothing more that could be added or adapted...well...people were pretty sure the earth was flat for a while.


I'll stick with studying the ways of old.
Uh...don't you study shaolin-do? :)

[dezhen2001]

i forgot about gda's rotting orbs :(
dont have anything else constructive to say on this thread, but then again i dont think many people did either :)

dawood

[Chang Style Novice]

What's that word that means nostalgia for a time that you never personally experienced and may have never existed at all?

[Chang Style Novice]

how the heck could mighty mouse get his arms around the hulks NECK?Suntzu misspoke. MM wouldn't use an RNC on Hulk, he'd use a cape-streak choke, just like the one he used to seal that volcano.

[TonyM.]

Delusional psychcosis?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by themeecer
Ok, that was real mature FatherDog.


You're the latest in a long line of posters on this board with fundamentally dumb ideas. I used to try and explain things in great detail, but it gets dull after a while. It's more fun and relaxing to insult your obvious deficiencies.



Two can play at that game. I'm stupid, :rolleyes: but your momma dresses you funny. http://www.princeton.edu/~moraski2/dave10.jpg


I'm sorry, did someone with a profile on hotornot just attempt to insult my appearance? OH, SNAP! I am duly chastened!



I stand on what I said earlier.

That's because you're dumb as a stick.

[SevenStar]

HEY!! I was a 9.5 on hot or not

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
HEY!! I was a 9.5 on hot or not

I'm pretty sure that's because of Serpent voting '10' all those times.

He's sweet on you, y'know.

[Chang Style Novice]

Tony M. gets a cookie!

[themeecer]

Originally posted by FatherDog
That's because you're dumb as a stick.

Opinions vary. You could check my MCAT or ACT scores for verification.

By the way .. why aren't you at Gencon this weekend? ;) (That wasn't a cut)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog


I'm pretty sure that's because of Serpent voting '10' all those times.

He's sweet on you, y'know.

yeah, I'm aware of that. I don't sound like as much of a stud if I tell everyone that part though... *sigh*

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by themeecer


Opinions vary. You could check my MCAT or ACT scores for verification.


I work for Princeton; I deal with loads of folks with high test scores who are dumb as sticks on a daily basis.



By the way .. why aren't you at Gencon this weekend? ;) (That wasn't a cut)

I just got back from Scotland two weeks ago, and I'm going to Otakon in another week; no time for GenCon this year. I've taken too much time off training already.

[themeecer]

Having opinions that vary from your's doesn't make one dumb as a stick.

How was Scotland?

[Chang Style Novice]

"Stupid is as stupid does." - some terrible movie about how great it is to be stupid.

[weightvest]

Well, as I said before:

Ring fighting is pre-emptive, has rules;

Fighting is not pre-emptive and has no rules.

So how can the real skill of a fighter or their martial art be judged by what you see in competitions or TV/Magazines.

In CMA, you don't need to be a grandmaster to be able to fight. You seem to like to jump from one extreme to another by saying things like this.

Our level of MA in our world, is "just out of the gutter" by Asia's standard.

I think we are limiting our learning by not at least thinking that perhaps this is true, perhaps what we do see in the ring and in competitions is limited.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by weightvest
Well, as I said before:

Ring fighting is pre-emptive, has rules;

Fighting is not pre-emptive and has no rules.

doesn't matter... they are fighting with rules, but training how they fight - hard contact, no restrictions on the techniques they choose to use, etc. as opposed to light contact drilling because a technique is "deadly" In another thread, Judo vs Jujutsu was mentioned. The reason the judo guys mauled the jujutsu guys was randori - the jj guys couldn't free spar because of their bone breaking throws. the judo guys practiced full speed and contact on a regular basis, which made all the difference.

So how can the real skill of a fighter or their martial art be judged by what you see in competitions or TV/Magazines.

it's nonsense to judge skill based on mag articles, but full contact competitions are a different animal. How can you judge someone's skill based on merely what they are telling you?

Our level of MA in our world, is "just out of the gutter" by Asia's standard.

from what I hear about the current state of MA in asia, this is a false statement.

I think we are limiting our learning by not at least thinking that perhaps this is true, perhaps what we do see in the ring and in competitions is limited.

That's kinda the point - you are limiting your learning - taking what you can use full speed all the time against full resistance and training it until it's second nature. You fight like you train, so you will use what you worked regardless of whether it's the street or ring.

[weightvest]

"You fight like you train, so you will use what you worked regardless of whether it's the street or ring."

But again, what works in the ring can often be worse for you out of the ring. how can you fight like a train with a pint glass smashed into your face, or a broken nose after someone has just driven his forehead into your face? No bouncer in the world ever tries to go toe-to-toe with someone. It's always suprise attacks.

Sure ring fighting works, and yes it does help "basic" training. But it misleads people into thinking "Yes, UFC is the best way to fight." Well, there aren't knives, bottles, beer glasses, people hiding around corners and other horrible crap you have to deal with in real world fighting.

Some of the best fighters in the world are skinny little fellas who don't give a crap about you or your life, and will do any nasty, sneaky thing he can to hurt you.

What makes a good fighter? Someone who knows how to be spontaneous, and use his wit.

Going like a train may not be the best situation outside the ring, and often isn't. In fact, running like a train is sometimes the best thing!

And yes, China's MA may be a mess, but by our standard it is still way higher.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by themeecer
Having opinions that vary from your's doesn't make one dumb as a stick.

No, but having dumb and unfounded opinions does.
Your opinion seems to be:

You'd rather study the old arts than sports oriented arts, because the old arts are better. because they were developed by people who had to fight for their lives, as oppose to sportive arts, who fight in competition.

Well, there's two reasons this would make the old masters more formidable than the new.

1) The training of the old masters was SUPA HARD CORE because they had to survive. In which case, this isn't a good reason to study the old arts, because unless your training is just as SUPA HARD CORE as theirs, your reason it inapplicable. And if you study sportive arts with training just as SUPA HARD CORE as theirs, you'd be just as tough as them anyway.

2) Constantly fighting for their lives allowed them to refine their techniques so that they are superior. In this case, let's look at the facts: When the old masters 'fought for their lives' it was either in war, with weaponry (and hence pretty much inapplicable today) or against bandits and random street thugs, who were certainly not very skilled opponents. Whereas whenever the newer sportive martial arts masters fight, they are fighting against well-trained, well-conditioned opponents, of a commensurately high skill level. Hrm, let's see, which situation would better refine your skills and give you superior technique?

Dumb. As. A. Stick.



How was Scotland?

Very green. Lots of sheep. Enormous amounts of lager. The drinking culture over there is frankly astonishing. The intact and mostly intact castles are mad fun to explore, as well.

[weightvest]

I don't think anyone is saying one is better than the other.

To find the real, true HARDCORE kungfu you need to do a lot of searching and travelling. A lot. I would really advise most people, if they wanted to learn MA to learn to fight, then I would suggest something like BJJ, simply because 97% of kungfu practitioners and teachers do it because they think they are Jet Li or Jackie Chan. I mean when I finally find someone to at least show me what it is to them in China, the first thing they said was "This is real kungfu" whilst they demonstarted headbutting someone in the nose, kneeing them in the groin and hitting them in the throat in one fell swoop.

BUT on the other hand, as I said before, fighting outside the ring is a totally different story. In Brixton, London, for example, a prime thing that happens is some friendly faced geezer walks up to you and says "Hey buddy, you looked at me just then" whilst spontaneously hitting you in the face with a pint glass. I would guarantee that any UFC champion would die horribly in a real fight in Glasgow, London or Ireland. I mean those guys are tough as frikkin' nails. These guys go to the extent of putting glass ashtray in their socks and fighting 5 on one or more.

Paddy O'Big-Nutz would laugh at anyone who started bragging about UFC, and then would proceed to do a Romper-Stomper on them.

If you want real ring fighting, go to Ireland or somewhere, where they don't have rules and gloves.

[SevenStar]

and you think tma would help you significantly more than mma in such a situation?

[David Jamieson]

even today Kungfu is undergoing hybridization.

There is not much "ancient" about kungfu other than the amount of time it's been around.

There really aren't any "ancient" methods or forms in kungfu.
There are ways that are 'based' upon some of the old methods and granted, there are some people who actually revive old methods (but are they really doing what was done or an interpretation?)

With the age of video and communications technology, we can actually watch someone and we can watch their teacher. We can actually see where the students ways depart from the teachers!

Each new person to carry forward a martial art will do it differently from the prerson who taught them. That's the way it.

There are very , very few who have knowledge from an unbroken line.
Anyone who claims to have anything ancient other than a 'tradition' is being just a little deceptive imo.

It's all ancient when you think about it.

The ancient art of breathing, the ancient art of stretching, the ancient art of punching someone with all your might. lol.

Now, I don't agree with the haphazard way that people go about discarding older traditions because they do not understand how to make them work inside a methodology.

And I do agree with recognizing those who came before. But truly, there's only so far back you can go before things become shrouded in legend and plain old untruth.

Ch'an | Zen practice (and many others) will help to keep you in the here and now and to break free of all the illusions. Get rid of the trappings and empty traditions and get on with the work of getting yourself some kungfu!

cheers

[Kristoffer]

Good post Kung Lek

[chen zhen]

Word.:cool:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by weightvest
"You fight like you train, so you will use what you worked regardless of whether it's the street or ring."

But again, what works in the ring can often be worse for you out of the ring. how can you fight like a train with a pint glass smashed into your face, or a broken nose after someone has just driven his forehead into your face? No bouncer in the world ever tries to go toe-to-toe with someone. It's always suprise attacks.

you misread. I didn't say you fight like A train, I said you fight like YOU train. In other words, what you do while training is what you will do when you fight.

Sure ring fighting works, and yes it does help "basic" training. But it misleads people into thinking "Yes, UFC is the best way to fight."

And you are basing that on what, exactly? what study did you read that proves this?

Some of the best fighters in the world are skinny little fellas who don't give a crap about you or your life, and will do any nasty, sneaky thing he can to hurt you.

that's very true. mindset can make or break you.

What makes a good fighter? Someone who knows how to be spontaneous, and use his wit.[b/]

nah, it's the guy like you described above who is willing to do whatever it takes to kill you, just because he wants to kill you that bad. mindset is everything.

[b]And yes, China's MA may be a mess, but by our standard it is still way higher.

that's debatable. CMA maybe, but as for MA overall, I wouldn't think so.

[ewallace]

I'd be interested to find out from weightvest how he knows that some of these guys are better or more dangerous fighters.

Was it from actually seeing them fight (not two-man drills or demos), or was it from a story, or a couple training sessions where he was thinking "man, this guy could really mess me up".

But again, what works in the kwoon can often be worse for you out of the kwoon. how can you fight like a train with a pint glass smashed into your face, or a broken nose after someone has just driven his forehead into your face?

[apoweyn]

weightvest,


Originally posted by weightvest
I am amazed at how many people in this forum judge arts by what they have seen in "competitions".

People judge based on experience and observation. I can't really imagine another way to do it.


Let me just clarify: do you honestly, sincerely believe that people who train in martial arts with their heart and soul, who have made it their way of life, who's skill has gone beyond anything we can comprehend, are going to appear in a competition or magazine to promote their arts?

I'm throwing my hat in with CSN and Merry on this one. I don't believe in someone having developed skills 'beyond my comprehension.' I think that's a throwaway notion. Intellectual laziness. Saves me the trouble of critical thinking if I can just believe that Joe Qi has skills 'beyond my comprehension.'

As for people making martial arts their way of life, practicing with heart and soul, in 18 years I've known a handful of people I'd describe that way. Merryprankster happens to be one of them. Rarely a day goes by when he isn't training. Twice a day, frequently. If that's not a 'way of life', I don't know what is.

Who else... Grandmaster Ciriaco Canete of Doce Pares eskrima. Competed in several high-profile competitions in the Philippines. Few people (if any) who know Grandmaster Canete would argue that he hasn't made martial arts his life pursuit.

Granted, those are just two examples. And pretty meaningless in and of themselves. But examples can be observed and experienced. Theoretical 'closed door' masters cannot.


'IMO, the ones who you don't see or hear about are the scary ones. Every arts has it's "behind closed doors" groups, who you will never have the privaledge of meeting.'

How do you know, if you've never had the privilege of meeting them? That's like claiming that every used car runs great without ever getting to drive any of them. Certainly, it's tempting to believe that it's true. But you can't know that.


i think to judge any art by its performers in competition is more naivity than progress, and a waste of time.

So you're suggesting it makes more sense to judge things based on what we cannot see than on what we can? Isn't that the working definition of blind faith?

I'm not suggesting that competition is the do all-end all. (Though I understand that some people do.) I'm suggesting that critical thinking be our first tool here.

If some closed door master claimed he could levitate and rain qi shurikens down on his enemies, you'd be skeptical, right? Why? Presumably because you've never seen such a thing happen, yeah? You've never seen anything that supports levitation OR qi shurikens. Right?

But you have seen things to support many of the claims of competitors. Why? Because those competitions are completely open to public scrutiny. That doesn't mean that every answer in the world is on display in that ring. But the ring leaves no safe quarter for untruths. If a guy claims he can stop the shoot using an elbow drop, and the elbow drop is allowed by the rules (yep, I'm aware of that limitation), then we can see whether or not he was able to stop the shoot using the elbow drop. Self evidence is very compelling. Granted, one failure doesn't invalidate the argument. No technique or practitioner is perfect. Maybe he could have stopped the shoot nine times out of ten. And we just happened to see the tenth. But that's why sustained competition formats are important. Not because they represent any grand truth. But because they provide data for critical thinking.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

You aszhole ap.

:D

(TTT)

:eek:

[Ray Pina]

SevenStar, Gunned Down and all you other guys training to throw down with guys in a ring, cage or, what goes along with that mindset, anywhere, I give you props.

I compete as well though I don't "train" those long hours but should. I've been lucky getting through matches with terrible cardio. I need to pick it up and have a bit this summer.

Anyway, I see myself as a middle of the road guy. I'm training Hsing-I with my master now, which is a traditional style, but we wear no uniforms (gi's only to grapple), do no "forms" and use boxing gloves. On the other hand, I think this mixed martial arts craze is great for Martial Arts. A bar has been raised and if you're interested or not, you can see what fighters out there are capable of doing TODAY!

You might not be into it. But you can see if your gyme is preparing you for a test of skill with someone of that caliber. These guys are pros and train for a living, so they have a huge fitness advantage. At least check their technique. How does it compare? Are you familiar with it? Could you survive an initial clash with one of these men? As if in the street ... could you survive it to escape? Who knows what that guy at the end of the bar studies, and if he's ****ed off. From that standpoint, I think MMA has done wonders for martial arts. I know it woke my a$$ up.

With that said, I know at least one master (mine) who hates tournaments. This man fights all the time and can beat me down real good. I bring back medals from tournaments and he beats me easily. His power doesn't make sense. His arms feel too heavy for their size.

So, I see both sides of the coin. One may not be interested in competiton, but come on, these men are warriors. It takes a certain something to square up against another guy, and that certain something is what martial arts should develop (besides a bunch of other traits like self discipline, respect, ect.)

There is a need to test, and competiton is a great forum for that. After a while you know your classmates tendencies. Mixing it up with strangers intent to beat you is good for growth.