Kung Fu Grading system check it out... cash cow or legit?

[firepalm]

http://www.wushukungfumasters.org

If you haven't seen it they've been advertising in the Kung Fu Qigong mag. The format looks like a simplified version of the grading system now in use by Wushu Canada (@ www.wushucanada.com ).

Chan Sau Chung is one of the head guys spear heading this. He is ranked at tenth level by the Wushu Canada grading system.

Will it be an old boys club, cash cow or legit? Any guess is as good as mine!


;)

[jo]

Will Denny Terrio of "Dance Fever" be one of the judges? :-)

[iron_silk]

Even karate didn't have a ranking system until the 1900's.

It is to my understanding that belt system was a way to show acheivment ie a goal for students to shoot for.

Although it is always good to have clarity in terms of progressive within a time frame and it is also good to be tested to make sure they haven't slacked off. BUT I don't believe it is necessary to have a belt in order to be tested and for the instructor to make you should be up to a level.

In fact the only reason to have a belt is to show others your level but sometimes it doesn't mean that one black belt actually equals another...and in fact could get his/her arse kicked by a lower belt level.

To have a ranking system is in fact as they state a popularity contest. They want the mass popularity as karate and tae kwon do. The truth is that they train differently from CMA that I am familiar with.

Will this change how CMA is portrayed due to the desire to promote?

[Jook Lum]

Sounds like ego boosting,money grabbing bunch of crap.Nowadays belts dont mean very much(a majority of the time).Most of the modern day different colored belts are to make the student feel good and for the teacher to get more money each time the student test`s to go up a belt.The more colored belts you have the more money you get each time the student pays to test for the next belt.In my opinion you are either a student,teacher or a master.A good teacher knows the level of their students.In the past in Karate you started with a white belt and after years of training because of dirt and wear it would get darker and darker until eventually it would be dark in color(or black)then you were getting somewhere in your training.Today you can be guaranteed a black belt at some schools in a certain amount of time if you pay more to join their black belt club.The best way to find out how good someone is,is to do hands with them not the color of the belt they wear.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

Did it say anything about belts??? i dont see that listed...

AS far as it goes, i think as long as you dont take it too seriously you'll be fine. This thing is supported by many great masters, and is a way for some to gain crediblity within the martial world, its hard now a days just to go to someones school and gain credibitliy the "old" way(whip their ass :) most lickley you will be breaking the law).

so its a two way street, for money grubbing, its only 80 canadian dollars, and as we all know, canadas money isnt worth much :p

so i guess its a two way street... bad or not i guess we will see...:confused:

[Jook Lum]

Hello ZhoujiaQuan!As far as the belt`s i was adding to the previous reply.The problem with these kind of groups is that they seem to end up with a group of people who promote others in rank when none of them are highly skilled in the arts they promote the person in.It would seem, to be effective they would have to have a respected teacher or master of every style in their group to be able to be able to legitimately test the skills of someone wanting to move up a rank.You can not have a teacher of say Aikido promoting someone who is skilled in Bak Mei or Chow Gar to a higher level with any credibility.

[monk weed]

These masters started this organization to try to unite the CMA. They feel that if they standardize things with an overall excepted ranking system they can build a stronger more united and yes more profitable association. I just don't see everyone goose stepping in line.

[TenTigers]

(in the voice of the Buzzard) um.. nope, don't like it, uh, nope, nope, not one bit.
It definately seems like the good 'ol boys club, and I am just hoping that it doesn't go the way of the TKD organizations, meaning that if you're not Chinese, you don't get above a specific rank.
-Just anutha example of the Asianman keepin the White bruthuhs down.

[Jook Lum]

Just wanted to correct something from my last post it should have said-You can not have a teacher of say Longfist promoting and testing someone who is skilled in Bak Mei or Chow Gar to a higher level with any credibility.I just dont see any need for a common ranking system.

[fiercest tiger]

Im for gradings! I think it gives the student incentive to train harder as they wont go far in my school if they aint my standard. My gradings go for about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs one person to grade at a time. They must know history, principles and theories, sylabus of that grade plus all previous levels. The do breaking if he or she is learning iron palm too.

$60 dollars for a grading is cheap when they get your time and certification, not to mention the breaking materials involved.

My 2 cents worth
Garry:)

[Jook Lum]

Hello Gary!Your website on your style is well done and very informative.As far as grading it does serve a purpose when the grading is done by the student`s teacher.It should be up to the teacher as to how or why they want to do it that way,but to have a national or international grading system seems to serve no purpose that would improve upon the individual grading system`s used or not used by each school.These type of group`s seem to come along with a new idea for a type of art or to a have a new way of bringing all arts together into a big happy family.They start with having a universal grading system then if that actually work`s with some success they still have a group(those who started the universal grading system) who has accomplished the goal of a universal grading system.That group is usually not afterwards content with having that accomplished and going back to whatever they were doing beforehand and leaving it alone.They come up with more ideas to justify the purpose of continuing this group for the betterment of brotherhood and martial arts.This usually leads to few(usually high profile martial artists from magazines etc.)people leading a group who profits from the schools which pay to be part of this universal grading system.As with some previous groups trying similar things which ended up splitting the original group into two groups because of disagreements among the members.I know some may think i am making to much out of nothing,but i am just giving my opinion on what could possibly come out of this.

[fiercest tiger]

my school or association is the only one that grades students, i introiduced the grading to YKM and set the standards. I think that all students must know about te art or they shouldnt be doing it, they should do aerobics or something else if they aint martial arts minded so to speak.

i think all arts should have a grading sylubus!

garry:)

[illusionfist]

Good ole boys club.

Peace :D

[ZhouJiaQuan]

They get points for using the phrase
"Super Masters" :D

[fiercest tiger]

You dont like to grade students?

How does a student of yours get to learn the next form?

FT

[illusionfist]

It's actually pretty easy FT. They move on to the next form when they are ready;) I evaluate their form, if it looks like crap, we fix and refine. Then we go over it again some time later, if it looks good, they move on. No big deal really.

I dont have a commericial school, so I'm not concerned with gradings and such. My students are all easygoing and they are just there to train.

With that being said, our focus isn't on forms. We work with techniques primarily (which are extracted from all the forms) and then just fight. Forms are at the bottom of the list and are mainly used for transmission purposes.

Peace :D

[fiercest tiger]

Ok, each to there own, my school isnt commerical these days and i still grade and make them know what how and when, fighting is part of all arts i hope........form is the frame work!

If it floats your boat then good for you buddy! All the best...:)

[abe27]

We have a grading system in our Bak Mei, and each grade is done in front of our sifu sometimes accompianed by other sifus from other CMA's. It was explained to us that traditionally there are no "grades" in trad CMA but each grade is something to work towards and provides a good foundation for the next grade. Interestingly forms are learnt outside these grades at our sifus discretion (with the exception of jik bo)with the majority of the grade consisting of two man techniques.
It is also encouraged that regardless of sash anyone can learn something of anyone else and we have a family atmosphere in training.
I think that having a sylabus (whether it is graded or not) helps both students and teacher and as long as they are not handed out for money .
We have a minimum training time in between grades and so this also encourages regular attendance.
Our club is not profit making.
Thanks
A

[neit]

cma + grading = junk

[abe27]

Neit perhaps you would like to tell us why you think that a club that uses grades is junk instead of just making a comment designed to start an argument. If you like i will list some of the potential benifits as a starting point for you to give your opinion.

Positive
1. A grade gives a student a clear goal to aim for
2. Techniques can be arranged in a sylabus and a style can be given structure
3.A sense of achievement is felt by a student.

negative
heres one to start you off
1 Too much emphasis can be given to rank giving a false sense of self importance and invincibility

perhaps you can add some more, this is after all a discussion forum.

Look forward to your reply
A

[neit]

i think gaining skill is encouragment enough. i also prefer to get to know who the "seniors" are then just identifying them by looking at their waste. almost every school i have trained at has used grading and that is fine with me. it does not do any harm really, i just think it is completly unecessary(except for instructors certification in large organizations). the fact that i think it is JUNK would not effect my decision in choosing a school however. i keep my opinion on the subject to myself unless it is brought up. i aware that my remarks are often brash, but it is how i feel. thanks for not getting agressive about it.

[Brad]

I think ranking systems help with the kiddy classes.

[abe27]

Fair comment, i dont think it would make much difference if my school graded or not. I would still have the same respect for my sifu and classmates. In fact i know that my sifu has thought about going back to the system he used to have where after 7 years or so you proved to him whether you were worthy of a black sash.
I suppose this is still a grading of sorts. As with all martial arts the proof is in the pudding whether you can use it or not in a real situation. I dont place too much importance on grades but feel they are a useful tool if used properly. Each to his / her own.
Thanks
A

[neit]

oh and when i said "looking at their waste" i meant to say "looking at their waist". i did not mean to imply that i examine their fecal matter.

[joedoe]

One useful thing about grading from a teacher's perspective is it gives you a quick and easy way to gauge a student's level. This is most useful when you have big classes. People should not be forced to grade.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Nothing wrong with grading, IMHO, but the teacher should decide when a student is ready for grading.

Don't like fixed time periods for grades and similar, everybody is different.

[Tak]

WTF? The only difference between a beginner and a sifu is CPR?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Tak
WTF? The only difference between a beginner and a sifu is CPR?

Maybe where you are.

In my homecountry everybody that has a drivers licence has undergone compulsory First-Aid & CPR training, plus each Motorvehicle needs to carry a fully stocked First-Aid Kit.

[Mika]

In essence, it is fair to say that any categorization is unnecessary and vain. This could be applied to martial arts, as well.

However, I feel that in today's society a grading system defends its place quite well. That is not to say it is required, but the system - if well composed - holds its value.

1) The student has a goal.

2) The student can see who is where and thus follow the higher belts if practicing at the same time with them.

3) The instructors can see who is progressing faster and might therefore considered to have some ambition.

4) It would be very hard to teach beginners and advanced students in the same class every time.

5) Organizing seminars would be very hard if no experience requirements were set. Beginners could not learn as well as advanced students would, so a complicated weapons form would be lost on the beginners. Some seminars, of course, can be open to all, but many times learning new forms or techniques is based on previously learned material.

Some of these reasons were mentioned before. There are other reasons, as well.

In the early days, many a Sifu knew his students personally. Nowadays, it is virtually impossible for a Sifu to really know all his students - and I am talking about a school with more than 100 students; there are many of them - especially if the Sifu has several schools in various locations.

Ergo, a grading system is not necessary, but it does make sense in many schools.

Mika