Can BJJ save Kung Fu? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

jmd161

07-26-2003, 07:59 PM

Thank you Bjj and the UFC/Pride championships!

For too long kung fu ppl have lived in this dream world of deadly techniques that they've never even tried.Sparring with gloves heavy padding and pretty much kick boxing.Everyone believing the hype about how kung fu is deadly stuff and you can't practice the techniques because you'll kill your partner.:rolleyes:

Well thank's to Bjj ppl in the kung fu dream world are getting a rude wake up call.In order for any technique to work you have to practice it.You can't do a form a number of times and expect the techniques to jump out when you need them.So because of the UFC/Pride ppl are waking up and starting to train harder.

So even though we have'nt fared well in the UFC/Pride we're getting ppl to look at their training and more themselves.

jeff:)

Royal Dragon

07-27-2003, 05:51 AM

Ah Jmd,

We knew all that already. We just don't belive going to the ground is practical, in a real fight. When we do, It's to quickly crush them and move on, not stay there and make love to them.

As for the not doing good in UFC, seriously, how many Kung Fu guys even bother with that venue? a small handfull?? The FEW that have have all been modernly trained. You can see it in their tactics (Or lack there of). Good Kung Fu is usually seen in Kuo Shou or San Shou. San Shou is mre modern, and you see a good number of modernlybtrained guys fighting in there, but many of them are still traditionally trained fighters that just conform to the modern rules.

UFC is no more relity than what we do, and neither are thier training mehtods. It's all the same ****.

SevenStar

07-27-2003, 06:57 AM

okay, you guys need to make up your minds... san shou is kung fu... san shou isn't kung fu...

jmd161

07-27-2003, 06:58 AM

Ah Jmd,
We knew all that already. We just don't belive going to the ground is practical, in a real fight. When we do, It's to quickly crush them and move on, not stay there and make love to them.

Ah Royal Dragon,

That is alot easier said then done.A lot of things are not practical in a fight ,but that does'nt stop them from happening.

As for the not doing good in UFC, seriously, how many Kung Fu guys even bother with that venue? a small handfull?? The FEW that have have all been modernly trained. You can see it in their tactics (Or lack there of). Good Kung Fu is usually seen in Kuo Shou or San Shou. San Shou is mre modern, and you see a good number of modernlybtrained guys fighting in there, but many of them are still traditionally trained fighters that just conform to the modern rules

Well i was using the UFC as an example.There are many other NHB tournaments that kung fu ppl do enter into.That is true not many "Traditional" kung fu ppl would enter those type of contest,but lets be for real how many ppl train the traditional way today?

Not many!

UFC is no more relity than what we do, and neither are thier training mehtods. It's all the same ****.

I never said it was reality!

What i said was it made ppl in the kung fu dream world wake up.Would'nt you agree that's a good thing?

Because kung fu and i mean all of kung fu has a bad rep now from the few half ass trained ppl who try to represent kung fu.

jeff:)

SevenStar

07-27-2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Ah Jmd,

We knew all that already. We just don't belive going to the ground is practical, in a real fight. When we do, It's to quickly crush them and move on, not stay there and make love to them.

1. you may be taken to the ground, as opposed to you taking it there.

2. when you are there, what are you gonna do?

3. it doesn't take much to snap a limb.

As for the not doing good in UFC, seriously, how many Kung Fu guys even bother with that venue? a small handfull?? The FEW that have have all been modernly trained. You can see it in their tactics (Or lack there of). Good Kung Fu is usually seen in Kuo Shou or San Shou.

yeah, it seems that that's ALWAYS the case...

San Shou is mre modern, and you see a good number of modernlybtrained guys fighting in there, but many of them are still traditionally trained fighters that just conform to the modern rules.

many of the mma guys around are traditionally trained, or have been at some point in time - judo, karate, aikido, pure bjj, etc...

UFC is no more relity than what we do, and neither are thier training mehtods. It's all the same ****.

From what I've seen, big difference in the training methods. Which is understandable, since the goal is different, and they attract different types of practitioners.

jmd161

07-27-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon and SevenStar
We knew all that already. We just don't belive going to the ground is practical, in a real fight. When we do, It's to quickly crush them and move on, not stay there and make love to them.

1. you may be taken to the ground, as opposed to you taking it there.

2. when you are there, what are you gonna do?

3. it doesn't take much to snap a limb.

As for the not doing good in UFC, seriously, how many Kung Fu guys even bother with that venue? a small handfull?? The FEW that have have all been modernly trained. You can see it in their tactics (Or lack there of). Good Kung Fu is usually seen in Kuo Shou or San Shou.

yeah, it seems that that's ALWAYS the case...

San Shou is mre modern, and you see a good number of modernlybtrained guys fighting in there, but many of them are still traditionally trained fighters that just conform to the modern rules.

many of the mma guys around are traditionally trained, or have been at some point in time - judo, karate, aikido, pure bjj, etc...

UFC is no more relity than what we do, and neither are thier training mehtods. It's all the same ****.

From what I've seen, big difference in the training methods. Which is understandable, since the goal is different, and they attract different types of practitioners.

SevenStar,

All of those are good points bro!

I don't know why others in kung fu can't see that.They use the same excuses all the time.I've spent 18yrs in kung fu i'm not dumb or blind. Although i think many others in kung fu must be.

jeff:)

mysteri

07-28-2003, 01:44 AM

i recently visited this forum for the first time in months b/c i couldn't remember why i stopped... now i know.. but there r times like these, far and few between, where i do have some time to utterly amuse myself w/ these kinds of debates.. so here goes...

i think that JMD made a valid point. to me i've learnt that kung fu training is a continuous viscious cylce of struggle and progress. meanin that no matter how much u train, or what level u've achieved, there is always more to learn and higher levels to achieve. and even if u think u've achieved those levels, there's still new things to pioneer!

but the underlying concept that allows u to truly evaluate and enhance ur ability is TRUTH! u must be able to evaluate and express urself honestly, or else ur simply holdin urself back from really advancing. JMD basically is sayin that most peoples ego's get in their own way and don't allow them to train like they could to be @ the level that they might THINK they're @.

royal dragon also made a good point in that honestly, to try to incorporate BJJ into our trainin would prolly not do much but degrade our actual trainin. i would equate it to wong fei hung takin up kickboxing lessons, or chang tung sheng(the recently passed famous shuai chiao master) taking up judo lessons. both of these masters trained properly the concepts and techniques of their arts and have proved their street effectiveness countless times. why would they try to soften what they've learned for sport purposes?

shuai chiao teaches u things like throwin someone on their head hard the moment they touch u. is this allowed in pride, UFC, or any other sanctioned event for that matter? no b/c in reality, that kinda thing causes SERIOUS damage and carries serious reprocussions, but would preserve ur own life.

so conclusively, like i said, if TRAINED PROPERLY, and evaluated honestly, CMA's could bring themselves to these levels and would be able to preserve their life w/o havin to go elsewhere to cross-train(i'm not against it, i jus don't feel its necessary and that was the questioned posted).

btw- BJJ may teach me how to subdue joe blow. but what about when his brothers james and jack jump in to help him? if u can show me ANY material where it documents how to handle mutliple opponents, then maybe we'll talk... jus my thoughts(this should get fun :) )

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 06:46 AM

Regarding San shou..

but many of them are still traditionally trained fighters that just conform to the modern rules.

When was the last time a "traditionally trained" fighter defeated a student of a known sanshou team/coach ?

Kung fu is trying to ride on the coat tails of san shou as proof that they have credibility.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by mysteri
...btw- BJJ may teach me how to subdue joe blow. but what about when his brothers james and jack jump in to help him? if u can show me ANY material where it documents how to handle mutliple opponents, then maybe we'll talk... jus my thoughts(this should get fun :) ) BJJ will teach you to and how to get the **** up when you are held on the ground and bother James starts beats the sh!t out of you.

Few people in the grappling and fewer in the MMA community dispute the FACT that no one style or range of combat is enough. You may want to stay standing but your striking abilities are worthless if you are just going to be takendown and not be able to get back up. The best strikers in MMA spend half their time on stuff they don't WANT to use in a fight but rather what they NEED for a fight.

You can't BS reality and I think that is what many arts try to do when they train ground fighting. If you want to learn it why does it matter if they best instructor in the world is 1) Russian, Japanese, Brazilian or a farmboy in Iowa 2) has absolutely no lineage.

You talk about honesty. Well honesty does not lie in one style, be it Kung Fu, Karate, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, Hapkido, etc etc.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Regarding San shou..
Kung fu is trying to ride on the coat tails of san shou as proof that they have credibility.

:rolleyes:

Now i understand why SifuAbel one of my sifu's by the way. Has labeled you a "Drama Queen!!!"

Yeah,

You're right! Kung fu needs to ride the great heels of " The Amighty non fearing all powerful San Shou"

ha ha haha hehehehe

Plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ese!!!

mysteri,

I'm glad someone understood what i was saying.That we do need to train harder and help lift our image back to where it's supposed to be.

jeff:)

jmd161

07-28-2003, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by truewrestler
your striking abilities are worthless if you are just going to be takendown and not be able to get back up.

Why do ppl think you can't strike from the ground?

If you can't strike while you're on the ground.Then you were never a striker to begin with!

That is something ppl are saying and it's not true.I can strike effectively on the ground on my back in a mounted position.It might not have the power of a strike standing,but a knuckle strike to the sternum does'nt need that much power to have an effect.It's also well in reach while being mounted.I don't know why strikers feel if they get taken down and mounted they have to go for the eyes?

jeff:)

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by jmd161

Why do ppl think you can't strike from the ground?

If you can't strike while you're on the ground.Then you were never a striker to begin with!

That is something ppl are saying and it's not true.I can strike effectively on the ground on my back in a mounted position.It might not have the power of a strike standing,but a knuckle strike to the sternum does'nt need that much power to have an effect.It's also well in reach while being mounted.I don't know why strikers feel if they get taken down and mounted they have to go for the eyes?

jeff:)

You are BSing reality and yourself....and you were talking about HONESTY?

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 07:36 AM

jmd,

When was the last time a "traditionally trained" fighter defeated a student of a known sanshou team/coach ?

My question is valid and it emphasises a point that every combat sport fighter makes in stating why we dominate traditional fighters.

Why do ppl think you can't strike from the ground?

This is an example of the problem.
You just don't understand because you don't train in grappling..

I'ts not about striking from the ground. It's a matter of striking from an inferior position.

A grappling problem requires a grappling solution..

You've not going to strike your way out of being mounted, side mounted, scarf hold, north/south etc..

and the name calling and insults do nothing to further your cause or help your credibility. On the contrary. they appear like childish barbs of frustration.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 07:39 AM

You're trying to tell me the sternum is not within range for me to strike while you're in the mount?

I know you can't be saying that?

Yeah the face might be out of range,but the sternum is well within reach.You tell me what's not honest about what i just said!

jeff:)

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 07:40 AM

I think that sanshou does train traditionally (if we don't distort the meaning of traditionally) which is to say, hard and live. That's pretty much what matters right there.

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 07:42 AM

How do you root your punches while on your back? How do you chamber from a mounted position? Where does the motion begin and end, and how does it gain power? These are the relevant questions to striking on the ground.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by jmd161
You're trying to tell me the sternum is not within range for me to strike while you're in the mount?

I know you can't be saying that?

Yeah the face might be out of range,but the sternum is well within reach.You tell me what's not honest about what i just said!

jeff:) jmd161, I hope you are just pulling our chains and don't really think what you are saying has any basis in reality.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 07:48 AM

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/ufcknockouts/ufcknockoutsvideo.shtm

1:06 is a nice example. I can tell you that out of thousands of MMA fights I not heard of a single one that was won from under the mount with strikes and only a handful won from the bottom period with strikes.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:12 AM

ShaolinTiger00,

It's obvious that many many many people have subpar teachers.That is the reason people don't understand their techniques.If you understand your techniques you can apply them from a "inferior position" with great effect.

I used to wrestle so i have some knowledge of grappling.Is it the level of a Bjj or judo master?

No of course not!

But i do know how to grapple pretty well.The question you ask i have no idea about the answer.Because there is no way for you or i to know every result to every San Shou fight held around the world. Because you might not know how to strike your way out of those positions does not mean it can't be done!

That's the problem ppl feel because they can throw a punch that makes them a striker.

It does'nt!!!

There's alot more like bringing out the power in strikes hand and knuckle conditioning and more.A good striker is not just someone that can throw a good punch,but that's all most that have'nt been trained right can do.You're right the name calling was very childish!

But so is saying Kung fu is trying to ride on the coat tails of san shou as proof that they have credibility.Kung fu does'nt need San Shou to have credibility.It's withstood the sands of time that alone gives it credibility.

Grappling is not new!

There's a reason it was underground search and see why.You might be surprised!

Originally posted by truewrestler
only a handful won from the bottom period with strikes.

So that proves it can be done don't you think?

I'm not saying it's something that everyone can pull off because not everyone trains the same.But for those that train for it and know how and where to strike it can be done.What you just said proves it can.You have to understand.I know very few in kung fu train the way they are supposed to that includes many sifu and so called masters.But there are some no matter how few that do train the proper way and technique.We are in that few when it comes to training.Black Tiger is known for it's tough training and conditioning.This is not a guess i've done it so i know what i'm speakinhg about!

Whether you guys believe it or not really does'nt matter to me! I'm just telling you it can be done.

jeff:)

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 08:17 AM

jmd,

please imagine two scenarios.

I'm in the mount position. My knees are tucked under your triceps, my base is wide and stable and my weight is upon your chest.

My arms are free :) you attempt to strike my sternum. (a horrible idea, but then agin you're in a horrible position so this is def desperation at it's best (and I'll give you the nod here, sometimes you'll try anything in a fight to get out of a bad spot.)

You punch up (with no true power) I parry, push your arm above your head and apply an ude garami that breaks your arm.

If you continue to struggle and buck..

I slide down to your hips, grapevine your legs, and then begin the systematic destruction of your soft tissue using my hands, elbows.

In your terrified and thouroughly maddened state, you feel as if you must survive this encounter or fear dying. You reach up to grab anything possible to damage me.

I secure your arm and break it (the other one or "again"?)

can you see how
Grappling problem calls for grappling solution?

You - bridge, upa and buck me off. (or if you're even better knee/elbow escape to your guard. but that's harder to do in a self defense situation..)

You land in my guard, but it's a hell of a lot better place than where you were. (chances are if you don't act fast from here I'm going to sweep you back over again and this time I'll hook in so that you can't bridge.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:27 AM

ShaolinTiger00 ,

So what you're saying is you have techniques that work 100% of the time?

Congratulations Bro!

You are the only person i know that has those odds.We can go back and forth all day with counters to each others keyboard grappling striking battle.I'm saying that i can and have striked from that position and it has worked.Nothing is 100% effective all the time,but i only mentioned 1 strike or method.There are others.

jeff:)

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 08:31 AM

JMD, more than 20 years in martial arts (all Kung Fu?) and you are spouting this BS?

I give you an example of a bad strategy... striking from the bottom. I say that it worked a handful out of thousands of times and you say "see, I told you so".

You are straight out of a comic book.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:40 AM

truewrestler ,

If that's what you took from what i was saying then fine!

I have to remember this is KFO after all. :rolleyes:

There are soooooo many reason why things happen.I said that shows it can be done.But you go with what you feel bro!

jeff:)

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 08:45 AM

I'm still waiting to hear how power striking works when you're on your back.

Is it just me, or are almost all tough questions completely ignored on this forum lately?

To take another example from a similar topic: why do judo newaza, bjj, sombo, and wrestling all look pretty similar?

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 08:46 AM

So what you're saying is you have techniques that work 100% of the time?

Of course not. but when gravity, leverage, superior position, and applied skill thru constant practice of fully resiting opponent are on your side..

it's hard to be wrong brother..

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 08:47 AM

"I'm still waiting to hear how power striking works when you're on your back."

Are you asking JMD?

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 08:48 AM

Anyone who thinks they have the answer. You were asked the second question, though. Three times now, and haven't attempted to address it yet.

Merryprankster

07-28-2003, 08:50 AM

ST00,

jmd101 is a true believer. Futile. In fact, he made my ignore list quite some time ago.

CSN--they all look pretty similar because good principles transcend stylistic boundaries. :D

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 08:51 AM

why do judo newaza, bjj, sombo, and wrestling all look pretty similar?

1.)To the untrained eye it all looks like wrestling...

2.) judo was the father of bjj and sambo. and all 3 are jacketed wrestling..

3.) Judo & sambo were influenced by wrestling and continues to do so. "Wrestling" is found in just about every culture on the planet from Mongolians to Africans.

chen zhen

07-28-2003, 08:54 AM

It IS kinda the most elementary way of fighting, & natural. When small children fight, they always wrestle.
Just an observation.:cool:

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I'm still waiting to hear how power striking works when you're on your back.

Is it just me, or are almost all tough questions completely ignored on this forum lately?

:)

Not all techniques reqiure major power behind them.A Phoenix Eye strike to the sternum will make anyone move without having full power available.The problem is ppl think techniques are limited while on your back.That means you don't understand your techniques.Also if you know how to bring out your power you don't need space.Thus the famous Bruce Lee 1" punch.

But if you're asking these questions you don't understand that or don't choose to understand that? Which means if it's the latter i'm wasting my time trying to explain it.

jeff:)

jmd161

07-28-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
ST00,

jmd101 is a true believer. Futile. In fact, he made my ignore list quite some time ago.

:D

I'm so sorry to lose such a great friend of so many yrs!

What can i do to right this"Great Wrong" my dear friend? :rolleyes:

Whether i'm a true believer or not the same can be said for 99% of those who grapple.You guys watch UFC/PRIDE/NHB like it's law of the land.Ok kung fu has'nt done well in those tournaments fine! That somehow means that you can kick any kung fu persons arse all of the sudden in a fight or tournament.who's the "True believer"?

Grapplers always talk how once they get you in a hold it's over.And that you're gonna take a striker down,but for some reason our stuff does'nt work against ya'll.We can't stay on our feet or strike from the ground.

Ok i'm the true believer!:rolleyes:

jeff:)

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by mysteri

shuai chiao teaches u things like throwin someone on their head hard the moment they touch u. is this allowed in pride, UFC, or any other sanctioned event for that matter? Yes. It is also allowed in wrestling, judo, sambo, and BJJ.

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by mysteri
btw- BJJ may teach me how to subdue joe blow. but what about when his brothers james and jack jump in to help him? if u can show me ANY material where it documents how to handle mutliple opponents, then maybe we'll talk... jus my thoughts(this should get fun :) ) Kung fu may teach how to mix it up and throw some strikes and kicks at joe blow, but what about when his brothers james and jack join him and they swarm you and take you to the ground? if u can show me ANY material where it documents how to handle mutliple opponents with one guy working the control postion and another guy or two going for leg breaks, arm breaks and/or chokes, then maybe we'll talk... jus my thoughts(this should get fun :) )

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 10:40 AM

ST and TW:
1.)To the untrained eye it all looks like wrestling...

2.) judo was the father of bjj and sambo. and all 3 are jacketed wrestling..

3.) Judo & sambo were influenced by wrestling and continues to do so. "Wrestling" is found in just about every culture on the planet from Mongolians to Africans.So, the reason grappling all looks the same 'to the untrained eye' is that the fundamental principles and techniques are shared, yes? Now, what might this say about effective striking arts, ie: the fallacy that sanshou is just kickboxing and wrestling? (A fallacy that also ignores the importance of the sidekick in sanshou and its absence in muay thai.)

JMD:
Not all techniques reqiure major power behind them.A Phoenix Eye strike to the sternum will make anyone move without having full power available.The problem is ppl think techniques are limited while on your back.That means you don't understand your techniques.Also if you know how to bring out your power you don't need space.Thus the famous Bruce Lee 1" punch.I know, and this is accomplished by strong rooting and good body mechanics. You ignored the tough part of my question (I should be getting used to this by now) which was how do you root and get those standing mechanics on the ground? Remember, Bruce Lee's 1" punch was done standing up and not while being pounded and sat on.

Jeepers, people. Try to focus on making sense and finding the truth rather than winning the arguement. It makes this a LOT less pointless.

Water Dragon

07-28-2003, 10:46 AM

1998 called. It wants it's thread back.

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 10:47 AM

LOL! AMEN!!What collosal waste of bandwidth. ROFL!!

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 10:48 AM

Now, what might this say about effective striking arts, ie: the fallacy that sanshou is just kickboxing and wrestling? (A fallacy that also ignores the importance of the sidekick in sanshou and its absence in muay thai.)

You have thrust kicked the correct in the knee and are now walking away with his girlfriend.. :D

HuangKaiVun

07-28-2003, 11:04 AM

I intend to send a kung fu student into the cagefighting arena at some point.

Obviously he'll have to have some knowledge of BJJ tactics in the octagon. After all, that's what everybody uses.

That said, we've dealt with BJJ in our class on several occasions. It has its merits, but it has its weaknesses too. The same could be true of any style.

Our student will probably use a mix of kung fu methods, but his primary weapon will be the "Monk Fist" style. The hardest thing about training him will be deconditioning him away from using the illegal moves that the no-holds-barred rules prevent.

I think BJJ has been great for kung fu in that it has forced us to reexamine our training methods in a modern setting.

But if you look at old manuals like the Bubishi, you'll see that the concept of grappling and groundfighting have been around long before Maeda and Carlos Gracie even were born.

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by jmd161
That is something ppl are saying and it's not true.I can strike effectively on the ground on my back in a mounted position.It might not have the power of a strike standing,but a knuckle strike to the sternum does'nt need that much power to have an effect. Jeff- I'll tell you what. If you want to put some money up, I'll bet you that I can mount you and give you a couple of sternum shots as hard as you want. If you can even come close to hurting me you win whatever amount we bet, plus any transportation and lodging costs while you are here.

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 11:16 AM

All this reminds me - one of my co-workers in my new temp job (looks like it may last a while, thankfully) is a pretty new student at Bill Vandry's BJJ studio. We had a good talk yesterday about TJQ and BJJ and perhaps we'll have a chance to demo a few techs for each other sometime soon. I've certainly been interested in checking it out first hand for some time, and have mostly been prevented by my own seriously sh!tty finances. In any case, it could be the start of some interesting experience for me. I've always thought it looked like a lot of fun (and similar in many respects to TJQ.)

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
1998 called. It wants it's thread back. 1998? Don't you mean 1993...

Shaolin-Do

07-28-2003, 11:20 AM

"If you can even come close to hurting me you win whatever amount we bet, plus any transportation and lodging costs while you are here."

Does that include bar and taxi fees?
:D

SevenStar

07-28-2003, 11:21 AM

I think you will find some similarities there

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
All this reminds me - one of my co-workers in my new temp job (looks like it may last a while, thankfully) is a pretty new student at Bill Vandry's BJJ studio. We had a good talk yesterday about TJQ and BJJ and perhaps we'll have a chance to demo a few techs for each other sometime soon. I've certainly been interested in checking it out first hand for some time, and have mostly been prevented by my own seriously sh!tty finances. In any case, it could be the start of some interesting experience for me. I've always thought it looked like a lot of fun (and similar in many respects to TJQ.) I've heard awesome things about Vandry.

http://www.onthemat.com/interview_william_vandry.html

SevenStar

07-28-2003, 11:23 AM

To comment on what JMD said about striking from his back, I've heard a term tossed around with internal guys that say the same thing - it's called short power. I don't know much about it, but apparently it allows you to have forceful strikes from short distances, even on the ground.

Water Dragon

07-28-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by truewrestler
1998? Don't you mean 1993...

No. 1993 was the year of non-contact Chi knockouts.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 11:33 AM

Shaolin-Do

07-28-2003, 11:36 AM

No, 93 was souls of mischief's best album release.
:)

Water Dragon

07-28-2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
No, 93 was souls of mischief's best album release.
:)

Like you would know. You didn't even have pubes in 1993 :eek:

Shaolin-Do

07-28-2003, 11:45 AM

Not many 4th graders do :eek:
Wait... Sh!t... Was that 3rd grade?
"Like you would know."

Just like I know about led zepplin, the doors, the doobie brothers..... :D

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 11:48 AM

I've been able to develop a little bit of short power myself, but it's very dependent on exploiting the qualities of the stance, specifically, simultaneously straightening every joint from ankle to wrist while shifting body weight in the direction of the strike. I just don't see how these mechanics can be transferred to striking upwards while lying on one's back.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 11:49 AM

93 = The Beginning

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Gym/2115/ufc1.gif

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 11:51 AM

'93 was probably the 2nd best year in hiphop history, after '88.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 11:52 AM

Chang Style Novice, you apparently do not have any Chi sorry your only hope is to train how to escape the position.

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Jeff- I'll tell you what. If you want to put some money up, I'll bet you that I can mount you and give you a couple of sternum shots as hard as you want. If you can even come close to hurting me you win whatever amount we bet, plus any transportation and lodging costs while you are here.

This falls into that neat "if you only knew" category.

Jeff is a REALLY big and strong guy. He would probably give you a hernia.
To appraoch him at all and get him down on the mount would cost you dearly in teeth. He is VERY fast for a guy his size. And, to allow this big monster to knuckle strike you in the sternum twice is INSANE. It would probably put you in orbit. He would squash little old you like a bug. Then he'd pimp you out to his friends on Biscayne Blvd. LOL!!ROFL!! :rolleyes:

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 02:18 PM

SifuAbel, are you being sarcastic? If not, what do you think hurts more?

Someone punching you in the chest while on their back or this: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/pictures/ufc34_match3.jpg

Thanks

Water Dragon

07-28-2003, 02:31 PM

Oh! I wanna play.

What hurts more?

This:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/pictures/ufc34_match3.jpg

Or This:
http://www.mg-3d.com/Hthrosm.jpg

ShaolinTiger00

07-28-2003, 02:36 PM

this one? (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/ouch.jpg)

or this one? (http://www.jinjapan.org/kidsweb/virtual/judo/image/waza.gif)

btw WD the SC club at OSU.. been there. nice folks

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 02:44 PM

It would take some doing to get there in the first place.

A better question is, which one could you do quicker?

All i'm saying is that Jeff would poke a hole through Knife if HE were the one punching. Plus, I don't think KF could even get this Giant on the ground without taking major damage. Which is the ultimate vainty here. The thought that going to the ground is automatic in all cases and that it wouldn't cost you anything in the process.

As someone has already mentioned. It was Bjj that needed saving with good striking skill as they(graciers) were being systematically knocked silly one by one.

Water Dragon

07-28-2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
this one? (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/ouch.jpg)

btw WD the SC club at OSU.. been there. nice folks

Cool. I haven't made it down yet, but I'm hoping to compete in the Great Lakes next spring. I'm gonna start fighting San Shou soon as well. See, I quit smoking and start thinking I'm invincible.

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 02:52 PM

that was a cool SC pic, wd. Talk about a bean splitter.

red5angel

07-28-2003, 03:06 PM

truewrestler, short power is there, it's a solid principle as well. I do't buy the claims some make about it being as or even more devestating then long power, but it can do some damage and isnt a real "secret". Most southern CMA use it. It can be used on the ground as wlel but like most striking has to be trained there to understand it's proper use. Actually grapplers use it from time to time to their own ends as well so it's not exclusive to striking.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 03:21 PM

Using strikes to remove/hurt an opponent who has you mounted is not realistic.

Sure, short power is used all the time in MMA usually by way of elbows. Elbows are especially effective on the ground to cause damage(cuts, swelling) and even KOs... they are rarely used from the bottom, rarely attempted from under the mount (i have seen elbows to thigh), and strikes have NEVER been effective under the mount....PERIOD... it is as absolutely as simple as that.

red5angel

07-28-2003, 03:23 PM

well, I am not sure if I can dispute you or not truewrestler. I have a hard time believing anything is an absolute, although some things are hard enough as to appear to be impossible. All I know is that short power is useful in it's way and can be a viable answer to helping out on the ground, although familiarity with ground fighting etc..is also a must.

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Jeff is a REALLY big and strong guy. He would probably give you a hernia.
To appraoch him at all and get him down on the mount would cost you dearly in teeth. He is VERY fast for a guy his size. And, to allow this big monster to knuckle strike you in the sternum twice is INSANE. It would probably put you in orbit. He would squash little old you like a bug. Then he'd pimp you out to his friends on Biscayne Blvd. LOL!!ROFL!! :rolleyes: Actaully, my offer is not only open to Jeff, but to anyone else, anywhere, who wants to put some money up. I will take the mount, and let ANYONE punch me twice in the sternum while I am mounted.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Jeff- I'll tell you what. If you want to put some money up, I'll bet you that I can mount you and give you a couple of sternum shots as hard as you want. If you can even come close to hurting me you win whatever amount we bet, plus any transportation and lodging costs while you are here.

Bro PM me and we'll do this!

I want everything in writing with a waiver!

If you're going to do that im there.My Sifu and i are supposed to go to Cali anyway to see my sihing there.Bro you don't have to give me any shots at all.I don't want any excuses about i gave him a shot or whatever.Also i want it video taped and put up on this Forum.

It's funny you can agree to meet me 3,000 miles away in Miami,Fl ,but can't meet SifuAbel who lives in Cali.SifuAbel is one of my sifu by the way.

Bro!
From what some ppl are telling me you are all talk.If you want to do this let's do it,but if you're keyboard boxing like i'm being told you do alot of?

Bro don't waste my time!!!

jeff:)

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
All i'm saying is that Jeff would poke a hole through Knife if HE were the one punching. Plus, I don't think KF could even get this Giant on the ground without taking major damage. Which is the ultimate vainty here. The thought that going to the ground is automatic in all cases and that it wouldn't cost you anything in the process. ... And I'm not saying I could necessarily take Jeff down in the first place. Jeff is saying he could have an effect by striking to the sternum when someone is mounted. I am saying this is ludicrous and I am willing to back that statement up by starting mounted on ANYONE who can then strike me twice in the sternum.

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 05:03 PM

So you are going to let him strike you in the sternum? Just take it?

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 05:06 PM

How many time does he have to say it?

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
So you are going to let him strike you in the sternum? Just take it? Absolutely. I've already PM'ed him so we can start setting this up.

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 05:12 PM

have you ever been hit in the sternum with a knuckle strike? its not pleasant. i don't think he's intending on wearing gloves.

Xebsball

07-28-2003, 05:13 PM

YAY!!! :D

I love sternum strikes

YAY!!! :D

i have no idea what you guys talking about
please read my latest thread and show some support against the injustices the moderators have been doing towards me, thank you :cool:

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
have you ever been hit in the sternum with a knuckle strike? its not pleasant. i don't think he's intending on wearing gloves. SifuAbel, out of good faith I think your student should get two strikes to the sternum and Knifefighter gets two techniques consisting of armbars and/or punches. LOL

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
have you ever been hit in the sternum with a knuckle strike? its not pleasant. i don't think he's intending on wearing gloves. This will be a great way for him to pick up some extra cash then. BTW, as I said, this offer is open to anyone, including you if you also want to take the same offer.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
This will be a great way for him to pick up some extra cash then. BTW, as I said, this offer is open to anyone, including you if you also want to take the same offer.

Ha ha ha ha ha hehehehe

I would never let SifuAbel hit me bro even if my life depended on it!

Because you can't collect if you're dead!

But more power to you.I was stupid enough to 3 star arm bang against him although Sibok told me not to.I could'nt use my arms for about two weeks.

SifuAbel, out of good faith I think your student should get two strikes to the sternum and Knifefighter gets two techniques consisting of armbars and/or punches. LOL

As i told him in the PM i don't want any shots of any kind given to me.I'll do my thing and he can do his.truewrestler i'm taking this time to invite you as well.If you would like to try some techniques also?

jeff:)

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 05:46 PM

"truewrestler i'm taking this time to invite you as well.If you would like to try some techniques also?"

Thanks for the invite.

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by jmd161
Ha ha ha ha ha hehehehe

I would never let SifuAbel hit me bro even if my life depended on it!

Because you can't collect if you're dead! WOW!!! He could kill me by striking me to my sternum while I was mounted!!! He must really be a dangerous man.

He should take me up on my offer. If he kills me, I don't need to collect any money. HE gets it.

SifuAbel

07-28-2003, 08:15 PM

dale,

You never got around to my question.

It's your sternum, you do what you want. I'm not taking that resposibility. You are going to purposly let someone hit you in the sternum with a knukle strike. I think thats insane.

So, again have you ever been hit with a knuckle strike to the sternum? If not , I suggest you have a friend do it first before you take this challenge. I don't think you have an idea how painfull that is.

You are going to just sit there upright, bare your chest and say hit me. Thats crazy. I would never do something like that.

TW,

Whats the point of letting someone do an armbar on you? That isn't even an issue. Think about it. Wouldn't that be even more stupid? You're on a crusade preaching to the choir.

rogue

07-28-2003, 08:22 PM

OK, I'm a dumb guy. But if KF is sitting high, tight and upright, Jeff, who is a student of Sifu Abel, shouldn't have a flat surface to hit, unless he does some sort of hammer fist.:confused:

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 08:29 PM

Wow! Knifefighter is willing to risk his life (or did you just say that it was a little painful) to proove a point that shouldn't need prooving.

Whats the point of letting someone do an armbar on you? That isn't even an issue. Think about it. Wouldn't that be even more stupid?

Mr. Abel, get mounted and you risk getting punched and elbowed in the face, throw strikes from under the mount and you risk getting your arm broken... that is what my point. Are you trying to tell me the sternum strike is more painful that a broken eye socket or dislocated elbow? How about Knifefighter gets a free knuckle strike to JMD's eye... how about that? Would that be more "painful" than a knuckle strike to the sternum?

You're on a crusade preaching to the choir.

sh!tty choir

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:33 PM

It's funny how everything you guys talk about is 100% fool proof,but our techniques can't work.He has to be able to grab my are for that to happen.

Oh i forgot your techniques are 100% effective!

jeff:)

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
dale,

You never got around to my question.

It's your sternum, you do what you want. I'm not taking that resposibility. You are going to purposly let someone hit you in the sternum with a knukle strike. I think thats insane.

So, again have you ever been hit with a knuckle strike to the sternum? If not , I suggest you have a friend do it first before you take this challenge. I don't think you have an idea how painfull that is.

You are going to just sit there upright, bare your chest and say hit me. Thats crazy. I would never do something like that. Like I told Jeff. Don't worry about me. I've been around the block a time or two before and can take care of myself. I just hope this doesn't turn into another one of those "we're too deadly and we might kill you so we're not going to do it" type of things.

Rogue- I don't know but these guys seem to think they can take me down from the mount with a couple of sternum hits. We're going to test it out and find out. I guess until then, everything else is just conjecture.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 08:36 PM

lol, yeah... your defense is a knuckle strike to the sternum... what happens when the guy on top of you knuckle strikes you in the eye socket? Please let me know, thanks.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by rogue
OK, I'm a dumb guy. But if KF is sitting high, tight and upright, Jeff, who is a student of Sifu Abel, shouldn't have a flat surface to hit, unless he does some sort of hammer fist.:confused:

rogue,

As i stated way way back in this thread.That is only one technique.Everyone seems to be locked on that as the only technique to use.

jeff:)

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 08:41 PM

Please enlighten us JMD... what else would you do other than the deadly sternum knuckle strike?

Water Dragon

07-28-2003, 08:41 PM

Am I the only one who's getting the impression that Knifefighter thinks that this little challenge is going to start with him in the mount but JMD and Abel think that getting mount in the first place is part of the challenge?

joedoe

07-28-2003, 08:43 PM

Knifefighter

07-28-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Am I the only one who's getting the impression that Knifefighter thinks that this little challenge is going to start with him in the mount but JMD and Abel think that getting mount in the first place is part of the challenge? No... we've already cleared that up via PM. I will be starting in the mount postion. Jeff gets two strikes to the sternum. He also wants me to defend against them (which is fine with me), as he is concerned that he might seriously hurt me, and I do appreciate that.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
lol, yeah... your defense is a knuckle strike to the sternum... what happens when the guy on top of you knuckle strikes you in the eye socket? Please let me know, thanks.

yeah,

The mount the position that no one can escape from.

Ok guy's i guess i'm dreaming?

No one has ever escaped from the mount so why should i even try? I'm doomed from the start i should just listen to you guys.:rolleyes:

Ha ha ha ha

"Yeah Right!!!":p

Although i'm in a no win position i'm going to do this.When i show Knifefighter what i'm talking about and place the video on the forum.Watch how quick you guy's find excuese to why i was able to beat him.

jeff:)

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 08:55 PM

Okay, there has been a breakdown of communication here. KF's claim is not that the mount is unbeatable, but that strikes to the sternum are not an effective escape from mount technique.

I swear, reading comprehension on this forum is the pits.

rogue

07-28-2003, 08:55 PM

Nah, if you come up with an escape from the mount that is uncommon you'll get props. It will be analyzed to see how it worked and how it could be defended against in the future.

truewrestler

07-28-2003, 08:57 PM

Let me ask a question. Is the sternum knuckle strike the only counter to the mount that you have? If not, please explain what you might follow up with if for some reason the sternum strike doesn't work properly. Thanks

jmd161

07-28-2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by truewrestler
Please enlighten us JMD... what else would you do other than the deadly sternum knuckle strike?

I'm tired of this now.

People always mock what they do not know or understand.

Nah, if you come up with an escape from the mount that is uncommon you'll get props. It will be analyzed to see how it worked and how it could be defended against in the future.

I hear you bro.

At least someone seems to want to talk about this in a proper manner.

Let me ask a question. Is the sternum knuckle strike the only counter to the mount that you have? If not, please explain what you might follow up with if for some reason the sternum strike doesn't work properly. Thanks

Bro i mentioned one technique and had to endure all that has been said.I really don't want to go down that road again.You guy's don't want to talk techniques.You want to try and show that grappling is supposed to be superior to striking.

I'm done with this until the event is over.

jeff:)

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 09:06 PM

No, they want to show that IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES grappling is better than striking. Escaping from the mount is one of those circumstances.

Reading comprehension on these forums is the pits.

edited because it's late and I'm getting my pronouns mixed up. I am neither Knifefighter or Truewrestler, although I do agree with the sentiment that grappling is how you deal with escaping the mount.

Fu-Pau

07-28-2003, 09:39 PM

Jeff

This is all BS. All this baloney about who can and can't do what from what position (insisting on set conditions) has nothing what so ever to do with real fighting.

2 choices dude, either shrug of as inconsequential to you, that which others do not know, or, meet behind closed doors for gong sau, no rules no conditions

cheers:cool:

Christopher M

07-28-2003, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
To comment on what JMD said about striking from his back, I've heard a term tossed around with internal guys that say the same thing - it's called short power. I don't know much about it, but apparently it allows you to have forceful strikes from short distances, even on the ground.

Speaking as an "internal guy", I'd be pretty dubious of this.

If you're being pinned skillfully, the bulk of the things you use to generate power are largely being immobilized. This is just as true for any kind of "subtle" or "short" power. For instance, alot of power comes from the opening/closing of the hip joints/crease of the thigh; obviously, this won't do you any good. Analogously, alot of power comes from movements in the region of the upper back including and around the shoulder blades; these will be both partly immobilized from the downward pressure, and deformed from optimum structure from the upward pressure. And so on... Of course, there are still some mechanics one could use to get some power from this position; but the same is true of a boxer, right? I mean, it's possible to score a shot from your back in the chaos of fighting, just that nothing at all is in your favor.

In my experience, competent "internal" art instruction shares with grappling the view that you win a fight from superior position, balance, and posture, which will allow you to execute techniques effectively; rather than the view that emphasizes some approach to "special" technique which allows you to win from an inferior position/balance/posture.

The implication for our mounted situation is obvious...

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 10:02 PM

I always feel a flood of relief when I read sensible things from internal players.

Thanks, Chris.

jmd161

07-28-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Fu-Pau
Jeff

This is all BS. All this baloney about who can and can't do what from what position (insisting on set conditions) has nothing what so ever to do with real fighting.

2 choices dude, either shrug of as inconsequential to you, that which others do not know, or, meet behind closed doors for gong sau, no rules no conditions

cheers:cool:

I hear you bro!

jeff:)

No_Know

07-28-2003, 10:08 PM

"How do you root your punches while on your back? How do you chamber from a mounted position? Where does the motion begin and end, and how does it gain power? These are the relevant questions to striking on the ground."

I think later it was mentioned that you didn't know how to translate standing-root to make punch from on ground. The translation might be the contact ares while on your back and grip the ground with those--scapulae, shoulder, rhomboid, latisimus, coxyx, hips, thighs, calves, heels/souls. The reach might be shorter and with reduced pullback. The elbow on the forward half of the body would make for a stronger punch; no matter where your root.

Initially, I would have said that the root when on your back comes from the abdomin.

"jmd,

When was the last time a "traditionally trained" fighter defeated a student of a known sanshou team/coach ?

My question is valid and it emphasises a point that every combat sport fighter makes in stating why we dominate traditional fighters."

Would make making next KFOers' get-together, worthwhile...to be educated. But using him to Show He No_Knows does not make his concept wrong on the whole for today~ Only good for personal satisfation. No banners no cause, merely me -ish not worth while (I should merely recognize him and his instructors for being skilled. Appreciate that. And be glad that they train so well at what they do).

ShaolinTiger00, I think that you did not mention how yyou are with people who LEss than fully resist. It seems that your techniques might work better with people who fully resist as there is commitment. But hows about versus people with no, som, little or not whole commitnent? merely a wonder-ish (that phrasing "resisting" stuck out, to me~. Thank you.

Fu-Pau

07-28-2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by jmd161

I hear you bro!

jeff:)

Joi gin! :)

jmd161

07-28-2003, 10:28 PM

To Che!;)

Joi gin!:cool:

jeff:)

Chang Style Novice

07-28-2003, 10:51 PM

I think later it was mentioned that you didn't know how to translate standing-root to make punch from on ground. The translation might be the contact ares while on your back and grip the ground with those--scapulae, shoulder, rhomboid, latisimus, coxyx, hips, thighs, calves, heels/souls. The reach might be shorter and with reduced pullback. The elbow on the forward half of the body would make for a stronger punch; no matter where your root.I've thought about this, but still agree with Christopher M. A great deal of the important power-generating motions (legs straightening, hips rotating) are rendered moot by the mounted position, to say nothing of the fact that you are fighting gravity instead of exploiting it. It's possible that some type of fajing could be issued issued by the back and arm, but I think it's unavoidable that power would be greatly reduced. I hadn't considered the elbow as a striking surface from under the mount, but now that you've brought it up I don't think it would be much good for striking at anything but the legs due to its abbreviated range. Of course, digging at the legs with the elbows is a commmon tactic in BJJ, from what I've read.

mysteri

07-29-2003, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by truewrestler
BJJ will teach you to and how to get the **** up when you are held on the ground and bother James starts beats the sh!t out of you.

Few people in the grappling and fewer in the MMA community dispute the FACT that no one style or range of combat is enough. You may want to stay standing but your striking abilities are worthless if you are just going to be takendown and not be able to get back up. The best strikers in MMA spend half their time on stuff they don't WANT to use in a fight but rather what they NEED for a fight.

You can't BS reality and I think that is what many arts try to do when they train ground fighting. If you want to learn it why does it matter if they best instructor in the world is 1) Russian, Japanese, Brazilian or a farmboy in Iowa 2) has absolutely no lineage.

You talk about honesty. Well honesty does not lie in one style, be it Kung Fu, Karate, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, Hapkido, etc etc.

WOW! i wasn't even away for 24hrs and u boys can't behave?! (guess i gotta dig out that babysitters number again..)

i'll ATTEMPT to reply to those who replied to me(which i appreciate) but there was so much bs i may have missed someone, so sorry in advance.

TW-to tell the truth, u really didn't show me anything in response to my inquiry, but i'll jus accept what u've written. my point was that i think people seem to overrate grapplin arts as the ultimate fighting styles. i don't take anything from them, never have. do most kung fu systems not teach ANY groundfightin? i've learned things within my kwoon(from the choy ga aspect of jow ga). i used to wrestle as well so i'm pretty familiar w/ that aspect. if ur in a lock/hold/choke etc.. it doesnt matter what u try to do then, ur pretty much screwed in most cases. but its what u do up to that point to prevent bein in that position. strikin isnt always the best option, but neither is grapplin. however, i don't feel it necessary for myself to find some other school to train grapplin to enhance my own skills, i feel what i have and will learn will suffice.

I'M SURE ROGUE IS SITTIN @ HOME ROFL,"DANCE PUPPETS! DANCE!" but i sure love a good laugh...

mysteri

07-29-2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Yes. It is also allowed in wrestling, judo, sambo, and BJJ.

i'm sorry, i forgot ur still thinkin about ring fighting. i'm sure if u replace the mats w/ concrete or asphalt, the results may be slightly different if u hurl someone to the ground head first. am i wrong?

mysteri

07-29-2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Kung fu may teach how to mix it up and throw some strikes and kicks at joe blow, but what about when his brothers james and jack join him and they swarm you and take you to the ground? if u can show me ANY material where it documents how to handle mutliple opponents with one guy working the control postion and another guy or two going for leg breaks, arm breaks and/or chokes, then maybe we'll talk... jus my thoughts(this should get fun :) )

wow, that's a great scenario! i have to admit, i think i'd pretty much be done for, what about u? i guess that kung fu guy never learned how to handle multiple opponents BEFORE they swarm u(ie. reading, assessing, positioning, and other preventive measures). of course, none of that stuff is ever easy, but fair reply nonetheless :)

Merryprankster

07-29-2003, 02:26 AM

mysteri,

You asked a question about PRIDE/UFC rules re: being thrown on the head. Knife answered your question. I fail to understand how he's "thinking about ringfighting," when he was specifically addressing your question.

truewrestler

07-29-2003, 06:22 AM

http://www.subfighter.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=97

ShaolinTiger00

07-29-2003, 06:59 AM

jeff,

Would you please satisfy a curiosity of mine?

How tall are you? your weight?

I'm just trying to get an idea of how big "huge" is..

Ford Prefect

07-29-2003, 09:08 AM

It's funny how everything you guys talk about is 100% fool proof,but our techniques can't work.He has to be able to grab my are for that to happen.

I think the wiring is getting screwed up here, so let's try this:

a) Nobody is talking about there techniques being 100% fool proof. These guys have been there and done that and are telling you what generally happens when somebody extends there arm upwards while mounted. You lose it! I've done it plenty of times and got nailed for it and I've seen it done plenty of times with the same result. It won't always happen, but those are exceptions and not the rule.

b) Nobody is saying that Kung Fu and striking are inferior to grappling. They are saying the they are incomplete without grappling the same way grappling would be incomplete with little or no striking. Follow?

I'm sure this will be misread anyway, so I'm going to stop typing. :)

jmd161

07-29-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
jeff,

Would you please satisfy a curiosity of mine?

How tall are you? your weight?

I'm just trying to get an idea of how big "huge" is..

6'2"

300lbs

The last time sifu saw me i was around 350 - 360.But i'm solid not a big slob or flabby.

Ford prefect,

I understand exactly what you are saying.I'm not a bjj or judo Master ,but i have spent yrs wrestling so i have some idea about grappling.I also train with several Bjj,judo,kenpo,boxers,and everyday streefighters.I have always looked at fighting from a technical view.So i have some idea of what i'm talking about.

jeff:)

Shadowboxer

07-29-2003, 09:58 AM

I have a a mini-DV camera and would be happy to film this for you guys. I'll edit it and get it ready to post on the web in what ever format(s) you choose. Let me kow if you are interested.

jmd161

07-29-2003, 10:02 AM

Are you willing to go to cali to do it?

I would like some neutral ppl to be there.

jeff:)

Shadowboxer

07-29-2003, 11:08 AM

I like Cali. What's the timeframe for this? I might be there in September on a roadtrip anyway. Or, I might be able to get a buddypass and fly for cheap. Would just need a place to stay. PM me with the specifics.

mysteri

07-29-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
mysteri,

You asked a question about PRIDE/UFC rules re: being thrown on the head. Knife answered your question. I fail to understand how he's "thinking about ringfighting," when he was specifically addressing your question.

ya know what? when ur right, ur right. i shoulda reread my own post! :D thanx for clearin that up for us...adieu

SevenStar

07-30-2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I always feel a flood of relief when I read sensible things from internal players.

Thanks, Chris.

agreed.

Lowlynobody

07-30-2003, 06:10 AM

If someone used a phoenix eye and placed it on such points that were accessable from their position so as to get a pain/natural reaction as a means to create an opening or momentary off balancing allowing them to apply some other technique so as to escape is that grappling or is that kung fu?

As for short power from flat on your back while mounted - it depends. Short power should be generated from any position even when lying down or sitting and requires no pull back/chamber but strikes from where ever you are. Most of this power comes from the expansion of the dan tian, the spine, and a connection to the ground. If you are in a position to use those things you should be able to generate a twitch of power that will cause a decent amount of damage depending on the target and if its through the tip of a phoenix eye or not. Plus not to mention if a cork-screw motion is used.

That's my ramble for today......if it didn't make sense then well that's because I couldn't be bothered to read every repetitive post.

Lowly.

truewrestler

07-30-2003, 07:13 AM

Maybe striking from the bottom isn't the best way out (see attached picture)

:p

SifuAbel

07-30-2003, 08:25 AM

Thats not fair. The guy is smothering the other guy with that side of pork he's got hidden in his gi.

truewrestler

07-30-2003, 08:31 AM

haha!

Zen_Hydra

07-30-2003, 10:18 AM

I just don't seem to see the point to all of this. Most of the kung fu styles that I have seen, or participated in have at some grappling elements. Ch'i na, pressure points, etc... Why are people defending something as broad as "kung fu," as a striking only martial art? The best advantage that a "pure" grappler has over another fighter is his clear head when in a grappling situation. Techniques are bountiful, but a calm, clear mind is what matters most in a fight. So, in my opinion, "kung fu" doesn't need to be saved by a grappling art. It needs to be taught to use the tools it already has in every viable combat situation. Grappling being one of these.

Marky

07-30-2003, 11:26 AM

Hi all,

Let kung fu save kung fu, it's not Brazilian Jiujutsu's job to do it. If kung fu can't save itself, then it's not worth saving.

On an individual level, if a kung fu guy fails and gets back up until he does well, then he's not a failure. If a kung fu guy fails and complains that kung fu doesn't have the answers, then he shouldn't be practicing ANY martial art, because he'll always fail and never blame himself.

Someone can practice kung fu for ten years and know 30 forms, but if he lacks self-criticism, and his teacher doesn't insist that he cultivate that quality, then he's going to get beaten by a BJJ guy who strives to improve himself that's only practiced for 1 year. This is true regardless of what the two martial arts are. I once saw a wing chun guy who had been learning for a year and a half completely thrash a fifteen year student from another school. Such is life.

Marky

07-30-2003, 11:34 AM

P.S.-- I think the real issue here is whether kung fu guys are self-critical enough to improve themselves in a meaningful way. From what I've seen, there is a higher proportion of self-critical BJJ students than there are kung fu students, and I'm sure there are a million reasons for this. But that quality existed in kung fu since its inception. I might agree that some kung fu instructors should look at BJJ to REMIND THEM of what makes a good martial art and a good martial artist. It's more in the mindset than in the techniques, as I see it.