How to use rattan training rings

[mtod1]

Hi all, hope everyone is well.

Wanted to ask how one makes use of those rattan training rings that you can find in martial arts shops. Are there any websites that give detailed instructions is there a book/video or can one of you guys/gals give me some suggestions on how to start using them.

Thanks in advance.
seeya

[old jong]

Rattan ring practice pic! (http://waggin-tail.net/playmobil/photo/ci3518.jpg)
;) ;) ;)

[chen zhen]

:D

seal style.

[TjD]

rattan rings are less than useless for practicing wing chun; as they only reinforce/create more bad habits in chi sau and offer no benefits.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by mtod1
Hi all, hope everyone is well.

Wanted to ask how one makes use of those rattan training rings that you can find in martial arts shops. Are there any websites that give detailed instructions is there a book/video or can one of you guys/gals give me some suggestions on how to start using them.

Thanks in advance.
seeya
I don't know, but I suggest you try Rene's excellent resource, http://www.wingchunkuen.com. It's my understanding that they may have some purpose in his style.

I don't know anyone who uses them for Wing Chun training and cannot say if there is something to be learned from them.

Regards,

[old jong]

Another popular use. (http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/images/hula3.gif) ;)

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by old jong
Another popular use. (http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/images/hula3.gif) ;)
Ah, development of the tan t'ien!?! It depends which way the ring rotates. :p

Regards,

[old jong]

There are so many ways to train with these rings. (http://jugglestruggle.com/crj/pics/dan8r2.jpg) :)Technique taught by the ring practice... (http://www.threestooges.com/images2/splash.jpg) :p

[yylee]

I think I got these pages from a magazine some time ago

page 1.

[yylee]

page 2

[yylee]

page 3

[yylee]

last page :cool:

[chen zhen]

Many more ways to use rings (http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/admin/photos/rings.jpg)
Also for entertainment (http://www.dankirk.com/images/rings.jpg)
while doing footwork drills (http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/2/Icon/dyna-rings.gif)
While stretching (http://www.tbfj.com/images/adam-rings.gif)




:p

[old jong]

The sound of the rings. (http://www.earthstation1.com/pgs/tv/dos-yourang2.wav.html) ;)

[old jong]

Variant (http://www.earthstation1.com/pgs/tv/dos-yourang.wav.html) :cool:

[old jong]

The power of the ring! (http://www.thedude.org/images/content/img3e265c5d9c728.jpg) :eek:

[old jong]

Useful link.... (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~tc-ext/ring.html) :eek:

[old jong]

Rings (http://www.taquitos.net/dbimages12/Herrs-HOR.jpg) :p

[old jong]

Messier M57 (ring) (http://www.seds.org/messier/JpgSm/m57.jpg) :cool:

[old jong]

Rene's rings!... (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/) :D

O.K. that's enough rings from me! ;)

[ntc]

Rattan rings... not a good tool. Makes you develop more bad habits than you would need.... and does not help structure development at all. Not recommended.

[joy chaudhuri]

ntc- true...
but the advocacy persists and in the cycle of topics on this forum-it was about time for rattan rings--- soon there will be the iron rings on forearms!! And yes- there is a photo of Ip Man laughing and posing with iron rings.

Same old same old topics get recycled.
No problem but amusing at times.

BTW- a passing question to no one in particular- I wonder whether folks (female and mail)who are into body piercing and wearing rings in different places including lips realize how dangerous they can be (to themselves) in a confrontation. Yesterday I saw a guy ina very serious "argument"
and he was wearing two sets of rings on two sides of his lower lip.
Egads.

[Phil Redmond]

In order to maintain contact with the Rattan rings I have seen practiced you would have to push outwards. Otherwise the rings would simply rest on your forearms. Pushing outwards during Chi Sao is against WC principles regardless of lineage. So practising with the rattan rings would definately hinder you chi sao since WC uses forward energy.

[old jong]

But ,it looks so cool!... (http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/wingchun/italiano/sifurwita.htm)

Oups!... It's Randy W. !...I'm going to get flamed to the bones by Tapman now!...Oh crop!...:rolleyes:

[ntc]

Now..... rattan TATTOO rings in the nose and through the ears may help, especially if they require a huge hole to be dug into the ears. Your opponent might figure that you would be a real tough cookie to handle while envisioning the pain it took to get those rings in... he'd leave you alone !!! (just kidding....)

[old jong]

A fiery ring!... (http://cover09.cduniverse.com/msiart/0000113/0000113274_170.jpg) :cool:

[old jong]

Ringo!... (http://www.beatlesagain.com/images/ringo.jpg) :D

[black and blue]

From the Mai Gei Wong website:

Tang Huen Sao

Rattan circle is as training tool used by many kung fu styles. Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun uses circle with diameter of approximately 25 cm (+/- according to each user) for strengthening certain defensive and attacking movements. Form consists of 15 "techniques", which are practiced separately and with great many repetitions. Reward for students is raising strength and explosive energy. Training with circle also helps to better realize the position of hands before body and to strengthen "Kiu Sao" - overthrowing position of hands of opponent. Techniques can be repeated as much as is possible and needed.

[Phil Redmond]

Black and Blue, Try rotating with the rings for a while, then use that same energy during chi sao. You will be forcing your arms outwards. Just because some school uses it doesn't make it right. I know because I've chi sao'ed with someone who trained with the rings. It was to easy for me as he would push out and I'd take the center.

[black and blue]

Hello,

I hear what you're saying. But it's my understanding that lineages like the one I mention don't use the rings to for Chi Sau development in itself.

I believe they use them for developing splitting power, to burst open a slight gap when attacking down the line. Well, that's what I heard... could be wrong. (so often am :) )

[Tap Man]

HELLO ALL,

HERE IS AN EXCERPT FROM RANDY'S UPCOMING NEW BOOK SERIES (DUE FOR RELEASE IN SEPTEMBER).

Ring training helps improve the trainee's Self Structure in technique as well. The inside diameter of the ring keeps the forearms from spreading too far apart or from coming too close together and creating an elbow position known as Geep Jahng ("Clamping Elbow"). If the trainee underextends his position with either arm, the outward tension on the inner surface will be released, causing the ring to drop. If he attempts to overextend, the ring will act as a stop to prevent improper Structure. Although to the beginner, it might appear that the action of holding the ring in place might encourage the arms to spread outward from the center, in actual fact this action is not much different than hitting the Wooden Dummy with two arms at once, since there are only two points of contact with the ring at any given time. Thus, the finished position of each movement of the ring leaves the trainee with a very similar resistance to the moment of impact with the dummy. But it is the transitions from movement to movement which are more strictly guided by the ring, which assures that the trainee's interim motions are always fluid and circular. An old proverb of Wing Chun, "Yuen Jick Syeung Choy," says that "Circle and straight go together," meaning that in every Wing Chun motion, a blend of circular and straight-line energy is used to create a hybrid form of power, which I refer to as "Whirlpool Energy."

Tap Man Out

[Phil Redmond]

>>If the trainee underextends his position with either arm, the outward tension on the inner surface will be released, causing the ring to drop.<<

The key words here are 'outward tension'. This is exactly what I posted about earlier. You have to have "some" outward tension to maintain that contact. This is wrong for WC in any lineage. And I've studied a few.

>>Although to the beginner, it might appear that the action of holding the ring in place might encourage the arms to spread outward from the center,. . .<<

And it will encouarge outward tension. There is no way to maintain that contact without it.

>>. . .in actual fact this action is not much different than hitting the Wooden Dummy with two arms at once, since there are only two points of contact with the ring at any given time. Thus, the finished position of each movement of the ring leaves the trainee with a very similar resistance to the moment of impact with the dummy.<<

When making contact with the dummy the energy goes forward towards the trunk, not to the side. Notice I didn't say hit/strike the dummy as I have seen some people do.

I have seen Randy Williams videos and his explanations of WC theory. I was not impressed, except at his marketing skills.

[yuanfen]

There are lines and circles---

rattan rings, brass rings, ground fighting, sparring, real versus wannabe Chan, dynamic tension, resistance, weight training,
"real" fighting, bruce lee, who is X, did Y ever chew gum?, the classic mess, the non classic mess, the germany incident, the
real secret wing chun, per twc or xyz or sifu sez, pajamas versus jock straps...

a round table of contents of forum discussions- and sometimes a wing chun line - or is ita river that runs through this?

Be like water.....

[black and blue]

Sounds like a Wing Chun discussion to me, Yuanfen... Ratton Rings, who uses them and why.

No jock straps in this thread... but never say never when Old Jong is lurking.

:)

[reneritchie]

Most of the people here are incorrect simply because they've seen very bad Teng Huen training being imped in the west.

1. Teng Huen is just a training tool, like a wooden dummy. If your lineage didn't have a wooden dummy, and you saw someone using it, you might think it was silly and re-inforced bad habbits.

2. Teng Huen is NOT used for Chi Sao or anything resembling it, just like a wooden dummy is not used for Chi Sao. If someone didn't know wooden dummy and just started imping it, of course it would look incorrect. This is what has happened with Teng Huen. People picked it up and adapted it without the generations of transmission that integral WCK Teng Huen has.

3. Teng Huen is EXTREMELY limited in scope. It has only 1 specific usage: to train explosive short splitting power (there are other Lien Gung Sik we use for pounding, drilling, etc. power).

[BeWater]

yuanfen: Be like water.....

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Most of the people here are incorrect simply because they've seen very bad Teng Huen training being imped in the west.
We are correct in that the use of it for chi sao is incorrect and that's the usage implied by some people that promote the rings.

[Phil Redmond]

Can you translate this, and does YKS use it? It could be listening circle the way it's written here. . .smile.

[Tap Man]

ALSO, WHEN STRIKING THE DUMMY, THE ENERGY DOES NOT ONLY GO FORWARD. IT CAN ALSO (OR INSTEAD) GO SIDEWARD, DOWNWARD, INWARD OR OUTWARD. DOES YOUR ENERGY GO INTO THE DUMMY TRUNK WHEN YOU DO DOUBLE JUT SAU? HOW ABOUT WHEN YOU DO KWOK SAU (ANOTHER NAME FOR THE DOUBLE HUEN SAU SPREAD IN THE DUMMY FORM)?

FOR THAT MATTER, DOUBLE FUN SAU IN SIU LEEM TAU USES OUTWARD TENSION IN THE ARMS. SO DOES OPENING A DOOR AND A MILLION OTHER THINGS YOU DO EVERY DAY. DOES THIS ALSO AFFECT EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR WING CHUN?

Tap Man Out

[ntc]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Can you translate this, and does YKS use it? It could be listening circle the way it's written here. . .smile.

I could be wrong here, but this is my take on it:

"Teng" - if the chinese character is the one for "rattan", it will be pronounced something like "tongue" (with a low, nasal base sound at the "ton") instead of "tang" (which is "listening")
"Huen" - as you pointed out, means "circle"

Hence, I think he was referring to "rattan circle" with the words, but I will not be able to verify unless I see the actual chinese characters.

By the way, rattan circles are often used by other southern kung fu schools as part of their application training. Just have not seen them used in core Wing Chun.

[reneritchie]

Teng Huen = Rattan Ring. Not used for Chi Sao, used to train explosive short splitting power.

Phil - We have 1 specific drill with Teng Huen Sao for the splitting, we have similar drills with other instruments for pounding (sand bag), drilling (twisting the pole or chopstick bundle up and down), etc.

[Mr Punch]

So does anyone practise like the exercises in yylee's links? So far we've only had naysayers, Tap's assertions and Rene's info...

good enough, but the guy in that magazine looks intent enough to pique my interest... and he obviously ain't practising basketball!!!;)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Tap Man
Although to the beginner, it might appear that the action of holding the ring in place might encourage the arms to spread outward from the center, in actual fact this action is not much different than hitting the Wooden Dummy with two arms at once, since there are only two points of contact with the ring at any given time. Thus, the finished position of each movement of the ring leaves the trainee with a very similar resistance to the moment of impact with the dummy. Tap Man, just wondering (not flaming, for a start I don't even know who 'Randy' is)...
how the two highlighted statements are connected...? With a ring you have no target, with the dummy you do. Hitting the dummy with two hands could or should not lead to both of your arms' energies leading outwards... is that not a non-sequitur...? Sorry, can't follow your argument.

Also, yes, every move I do on the dummy is designed to direct my energy into the dummy's trunk... the kwok sau is a spiral from my centre into the dummy's trunk, the tok sau goes up and back into the dummy's trunk... etc...

[Phil Redmond]

OK, I was too general. Other than the seung jut sao and the huen/lau saos. 'Most' movements go toward the trunk including the tan and gan and the 45 degree pak.

[Tap Man]

AGAIN:

But it is the transitions from movement to movement which are more strictly guided by the ring, which assures that the trainee's interim motions are always fluid and circular. An old proverb of Wing Chun, "Yuen Jick Syeung Choy," says that "Circle and straight go together," meaning that in every Wing Chun motion, a blend of circular and straight-line energy is used to create a hybrid form of power, which I refer to as "Whirlpool Energy."

AND ALSO:

Use of the Rattan Ring develops different skills simultaneously. Firstly, as mentioned earlier, the ring promotes circular, rolling motion in hand techniques, as the trainee learns the proper method of circling the hands in terms of which should circle inside, outside, below or above the other. Rolling in this manner promotes Drilling Power as well as Connecting Energy (Gan Jeep Ging) the ability to make smooth transitions from one movement to the next, transferring power and momentum from one motion to the other through relaxed circular energy. This smooth transition from motion to motion is referred to as "Flowing" and is developed to a higher degree through Rattan Ring training as well as in Wooden Dummy and Chee Sau exercises.

Gan Jeep Ging development results in the ability to completely release power in rapid fire succession without choppiness or overcommitment to any one motion. When the opponent defends against a strike or if a strike misses, a fighter with good Connecting Energy will use a small rolling motion to bring the misdirected power of the failed motion back into the follow up technique without losing his Timing, balance or control and relentlessly continuing the chain of attack to erode the opponent's defense. This lightning fast alternation of control and power from one hand to the other is evident in all Wing Chun attacking combinations, particularly combinations of Complex Trapping Attacks where each hand switches from trapping to striking and back to trapping.

Tap Man Out

[old jong]

There are things primordial in Wing Chun.One is to have your triangle/hand structure or whatever your lineages call it in good order.If some feel they need those rings to obtain it ,it's their prerogatives. Power also comes from good structure but not only from the upper limbs.Chum Kiu teaches how to use the whole body to move and how to use various bracings in unisson with the upper body to cultivate power in defense as well as offensive motions. I fail to understand how those rings could have some effect comparable. Wing Chun is not only hands or elbows or even fast "trapping" tricks.
Who talked about jock straps?....Hum, could use the elastic for some stepping drills maybe?...;)

[yuanfen]

Rene has mentioned the rattan rings before. Apparently YSK/SN wing chun may use them together with other Kung Fu systems.
I dont think that Ip Man taught using rattan rings. Atleast there is no evidence of its usage in major IM lines.
I dont think that they are needed for power development. But if someone finds them helpful...ok.

[russellsherry]

i aggree with most of what my senor tap man , said also when, seef was , last in australlia, he showed some very good footwork training while usinging the rings also sifu stephan chans schools makes use of the rings as well peace russell sherry

[Mr Punch]

Nobody wants to answer my question then... what a surprise...!

[Gandolf269]

Mat - "Nobody wants to answer my question then... what a surprise...!"

So does anyone practise like the exercises in yylee's links?
I thinks you were correct that most of the people here don't practice the rings ("naysayers"), that's why your not getting any answers to this question.

for a start I don't even know who 'Randy' is)...
Randy Williams. Don't know anything about him but he has alot of training tapes advertised in the MA rags. Here is a link that talks about him.
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/wingchun/italiano/SIFURWinterview.htm

how the two highlighted statements are connected...? With a ring you have no target, with the dummy you do. Hitting the dummy with two hands could or should not lead to both of your arms' energies leading outwards... is that not a non-sequitur...? Sorry, can't follow your argument.
Tap Man just posted the info, but as he said, it was actually written by Randy Williams, so maybe others don't follow his argument either. I sure didn't.


Questions answered!!! :D
I think the reason your questions went unanswered is probably because they were directed at 1) small percentage of WC practitioners (people who actually use the rings) and 2) to a person that, as far as I know, doesn't post here (Randy Williams).

[russellsherry]

dear gandolf i understood , tap man" s point of view clearly , he will corrrect me if i am wrong, here wing chun is both straight and makes use of the circle at the same time, as wing chun is both internal and external, the rattan rings ,,train this as well as teaching, us about forward force and forward movements as well as training stance and footwork . peace russellsherry

[Miles Teg]

I dont know anything about the rings so I just take everyones word when they say it trains explosive energy. Some people who use the rings have said that it is not for developing chi sao and I can accept that.

But I am a little skeptical about the last comment about training forward energy. I can see how it might be a good method for practicing forward force and forward muscle memory in the lead hand, but the rear hand has to hold that force back. That is if one hand is pushing forward then the other hand has to pull back.

Would this not be a bad habit to get into?

[russellsherry]

yes miles , if you are not aware of the problem i cam see where it , could cause a bad habit but, as long as you keep your hands in proper postion, the rings provide a good training methord. As i understand it they also train whirlpool , energy drilling energy and storing energy peace russell sherry ps see we can talk without yelling at each other no hard feelings

[Miles Teg]

Absolutely

By the way there is an article in a Japanese chinese martial arts magazine that usually features Tai chi and bagua etc, but this time there was an article about Wing Chun. In the article they mention Randy Williams and had a picture of him among other wing chun sifus. My Japanese is not so good yet so I didnt read much of it. There was something about Singapore and this pointy thing that you stick on your little finger (I think as a weopon).

Anyway if I get round to reading it Ill let you know what it said.

[russellsherry]

thank you miles re the randy william information , i appreatie it also miles do you have , any infomation on a sifu from your line joe chan whom taught in new zealand a close friend has just stated training with him , peace russell sherry

[Miles Teg]

Joe Chan?
No I havent heard of him. Do you know what City he is in. I am from Auckland. The different lines in Auckland are:
William CHeng X 2 schools
Wing Tsun X 2 schools
Lo Man Kam X 2 schools

I used to do WT but there is another WT school around that I dont know who the teacher is. I know who the sifus are of all the other schools that I mentioned above though.

There are a few schools in Christchurch and also in Wellington and Dunedin that I dont know anything about. Perhaps he is a teacher there.

What line is he?

[russellsherry]

dear mile"S i will ask my friend where he is from. he is from , sifu choi sing ting ,line same as jimmy fung, peace russell sherry

[latta]

We have several ring forms in our kung fu system. The rattan ring, like wooden dummies and other equipment, is simply a training tool for the most part, although there are a few actual fighting applications, since the ring derives from the rings on which pots or baskets sit. Primarily, the ring toughens the wrists and forearms. It also focuses the attention and reinforces the emphasis on the circular area which constitutes the diameter of the ring. Any number of techniques can be found in a ring form, including striking, blocking, elbows, and circling. In martial arts, many paths may take one to the same destination.....:)