Anyone training gun defenses?

[rogue]

How big a part is it of your training. Do you use simunition or blanks? Any particular method or techniques?

[Fred Sanford]

I have a friend load up some simunitions then I practice dodging bullets.

[Shaolin-Do]

Have a cap gun and rubber knife to practice disarms... Get shot and cut a lot still.
:)

[Oso]

I've trained some.

the best I've trained came from a shorinji kempo group. they got inside the range of the weapon and broke the wielder's neck.

rogue, you are a trouble maker.;) :D

'gun' defense will be much the same as knife defense. 'damage mitigation'.

like any other weapon, you have to beat the person not what's in their hands. :eek:

[HuangKaiVun]

We've got a few registered and professional gun users training with us, so we train against people who KNOW how to use guns and have the certification to prove it.

Most truly skilled gun users face people using a reverse stance. So if they're right handed, they'll put their left foot forward and stabilize the weapon with the left hand.

In our drills, we use water pistols to shoot each other during practice. Of course, we make sure that the water gun is roughly the same size as a Glock pistol.

Because of the way modern trained gun users hold the gun, the key is to stay to the outside of the weapon. So if the gun is held in the right hand, stay to your LEFT of the weapon and apply techniques from there. You must escape the shooter's zone to even remotely have a chance of surviving.

If you do that wrong and stay inside the shooter's zone, the skilled gun user will flex his wrist and shoot you anyway.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Because of the way modern trained gun users hold the gun,"

Majority of assailants are non trained illigitemate gun owners :)
Which most likely make up a good majority of gun owners period... Not sure tho.
:D

[MasterKiller]

Unless you drill to defeat someone holding the gun lifted eye-level and sideways in the gangsta stance, you are wasting your time. 9.9 times out of 10, that's how the punk will be holding it when he hits you up for your wallet.

[HuangKaiVun]

If you can defend against the skilled gun user, defending against the less trained gun opponent is much easier.

Unless you have practiced this repeatedly, you couldn't know this.

[truewrestler]

the best I've trained came from a shorinji kempo group. they got inside the range of the weapon and broke the wielder's neck. Good lord... if only this could be done against a non-gun weilding opponent :p

[norther practitioner]

I stay out of bad neighborhoods.... does that count?

[Shaolin-Do]

I go for jogs in the ghetto wearing a suit made entirely out of 100 dollar bills taped together.
(of course I sport my Ice gille as well...)
:)

[HuangKaiVun]

Is staying out of bad neighborhoods enough to avoid having to defend against guns?

NO.

People get attacked by guns in good neighborhoods too whether they ask for it or not.

[norther practitioner]

I guess I didn't lay on the sarcasm thick enough... I don't train gun defenses..... I think that they could definitely produce false confidance in a situation where you should be mostly submisive.

[HuangKaiVun]

Nor did I lay on the reality thick enough either, it seems.

Here in Phoenix, people get shot all the time.

I also come from Schenectady NY, where every potential person that walks by you very well could shoot you dead for virtually no reason.

"Mostly submissive" often result in "all dead", particularly for women who are attacked on the street.

[norther practitioner]

, where every potential person that walks by you very well could shoot you dead for virtually no reason.

Thats pretty much the truth anywhere...



"Mostly submissive" often result in "all dead"
no, fighting someone with a gun will often result in dead.....
Granted there are time, where it is all or nothing that I would go toe up, however, someone wanting my wallet, will prob. get a lot of reciepts and a few credit cards, thats it.

[Fred Sanford]

If you can defend against the skilled gun user, defending against the less trained gun opponent is much easier.

If a skilled gun user is holding you at gun point, it's been nice knowing you. Someone who is skilled with a pistol and is willing to squeeze that trigger with you in his sights is not going to give you much of a chance to do anything.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I also come from Schenectady NY, where every potential person that walks by you very well could shoot you dead for virtually no reason.
What's a potential person?

Are we talking about highly trained (or untrained) fetal rage here?



I would guess Fred Sanford is correct, but generally I follow NP's suggestion.

If I ever did have the misfortune to come across somebody carrying a gun, I would attempt to do the same as with someone carrying a knife: get inside the range, control the arm, and defang the **** out of their head. Of course, I'm prepared for the possiblility that I might freeze, but that could happen when I'm crossing the road in front of a large truck... but it ain't likely to. My last few unfortunate encounters have not lead to me freezing, and I think my antifreeze mechanisms are becoming stronger with age, experience and stupidity.

HKV has, as usual, Short Fiddlers' Disease.

(edit: remember not to insult morons on the net... remember I am one too...:D)

[ZIM]

I also come from Schenectady NY, where every potential person that walks by you very well could shoot you dead for virtually no reason. Aren't you overstating this just a tad? Schenectady is not that rough a place.

"Safe Communities
New York is a safe place to work, live and do business. Based on FBI Unified Crime Reports, communities in New York State are very safe. Virtually all metropolitan areas of New York State, including The Albany-Schenectady, Dutchess County, Binghamton, Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester and New York City metropolitan areas have lower crime rates than competing Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs) such as Austin-San Marcos, TX, Phoenix-Mesa, AZ, Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA." link (http://www.semi-ny.com/qualitylife.asp)

Now, I also looked up the crime abstracts for 2001 and Schenectady does rate slightly higher than National averages for all towns of similar sizes for both violent and property crimes, but less for murder. Still, there's the proximity of Albany & Troy to take into account with this, versus say a small city in Michigan in comparison.

Money Mag. calls it one of the Best Places to Live in America (http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/details/ALBAN_NY.html)

[Oso]

quote:
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the best I've trained came from a shorinji kempo group. they got inside the range of the weapon and broke the wielder's neck.
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Good lord... if only this could be done against a non-gun weilding opponent

of course it could be done against a non-gun weilding opponent.

but, if you did that I don't think the courts would find you threatened enough to warrent breaking the neck.

I'm sure you know this, just had to point out that the reaction needs to be commensurate with the level of threat.

and yes, I'm aware a choke is often just a step away from a fractured neck.

[TjD]

i'm really good at
"handing over my wallet" fu

[rogue]

Maybe because I live where guns are easy to get and carry laws are pretty laid back gun defense has become a regular part of my training. Rather than giving a false sense of confidence it gives you more awareness of the many variables that go with dealing with firearms.


Because of the way modern trained gun users hold the gun, the key is to stay to the outside of the weapon. So if the gun is held in the right hand, stay to your LEFT of the weapon and apply techniques from there. You must escape the shooter's zone to even remotely have a chance of surviving.

If you do that wrong and stay inside the shooter's zone, the skilled gun user will flex his wrist and shoot you anyway.
Have to disagree with you on several points HKV. If the shooter is in a variant of the weaver his left side is toward you making it harder for him to move the gun toward his left your right. One reason why a more square on stance/triangle is sometimes used.

If the shooter is trained/skilled I've yet to see or hear of any of them flexing the wrist to move the gun. I've been taught that once a sight picture is established you keep it by keeping the arms and head steady and moving either from the waist or using footwork. Anyways it's always bad to assume what any kind of shooter will do.

[Fred Sanford]

all your gun defenses are rendered useless by distance. if the bad guy gets the drop on you from 10-12 feet away you can't do squat. If the baddie has a little skill, the moment you try to do something, you are gonna be getting pumped full of hollowpoints.

[rogue]

Sho Nuff. You've got to be able to touch the gun to defend against the gun. 10 feet away toss your cash, run like hell and hope the guy is lousy at hitting moving targets.

[Chang Style Novice]

I never knew my town is tougher than Schenectady. That's something to brag about, right?

[Black Jack]

Data has shown that social gunfire often happens at 5 feet or less. Where contact shots can come into play.

The best close range shooting system is point/instinct shooting which was used in WW2, Korea and even taught as the "Quick Kill" shooting system at the Redondo Commando school during Vietnam for both the .45 and M-16.

[Fred Sanford]

I know people such as my firearms instructor who have been SWAT and taught SWAT teams that do NOT advocate point shooting.

I reckon the military advocates more of a spray and pray method to their shooting.

[ZIM]

These guys train vs. guns I bet (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3037890.stm)

But this (http://www.jamesakeating.com/jakJ.html) was a little odd. Its about combat stances for shooting. Kind rambles. Any shooters out there care to comment? There was some discussion earlier on in the thread on this...

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Data has shown that social gunfire often happens at 5 feet or less. Where contact shots can come into play.
...
!!!
:eek: WTF is social gunfire??? :eek:
Is that like friendly fire?
Sounds like a worse problem than HKV's fetal rage!:D

[rogue]

What the hell is fecal rage?:confused:

[Mr Punch]

It was me being a smartarse earlier:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I also come from Schenectady NY, where every potential person that walks by you very well could shoot you dead for virtually no reason.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's a potential person?

Are we talking about highly trained (or untrained) fetal rage here?

[rogue]

My bad Mat. So what the hell is tecal rage?

:confused:

[joedoe]

Tefal rage? Is it where you get angry and use your frying pans to hit someone :D

Fecal rage - chimps do it a lot. It's where you really get the sh!ts with someone, then throw poo at them :D