12 Keyword Formula

[keef321]

Hi all,

I was interested in what interpretations various people have to the 12 keyword formula, I would really like to get my head around it all :-)

For example, Lee Kam Wing in his book describes "Tag" as a means of moving in close to the opponent, yet another interpretation states it implies "quick contact".

From a beginners point of view the main problem I find when looking into the 12 keywords is that most give the same example, for example "GWA" to hang/suspend the example normally given is the overhead block therefore for a beginner like me it is hard to comprehend in what other instances this theory is used.

Please include then english (ie. cling / tag / lean) in your replies at first so I dont get confused :-)

Cheers

Keef

[tanglang]

Was also confused, keef..;)

[MantisifuFW]

Keef,

The keywords are different from one clan of Tanglang to another. Lee Kam Wing for example started out with twelve from Chu Chi Man and then expanded them to include footwork with Teng-Nuo to bounce and Chen-Shan to dodge. He maintained a twelve concept rather than keyword by grouping them differently. Still later he has expanded his keywords to thirty one.

WHF also arranged the Keywords differently using Dieu Da, (to strike after the hook), instead of the Bung Da, (crushing strike). Perhaps you should list the twelve you are using so that we can all be talking about the same thing.

Great topic,

Steve Cottrell

[keef321]

Hi Steve,

I am refering to the Lee Kam Wing Twelve principles, yes I have noticed in his book that he expands it to 31 keywords but think I should get my head around the first 12 :-) they can be for another day ;-)

The twelve keywords, my understanding of them etc is as follows:

Hook - The action of hooking
Grapple - To hold onto/control the opponent, at the elbow
Pluck - The plucking movement, a quick jerking movement often bringing the opponenet of balance.
Upward Block - To hang in mid-air, as often seen with upward block and punch, any other examples anyone?
Intercept Hand - Intercept the attack then immediatly follow it up, usually a hook but I would think any intercept could be used as it is a theory, ie. forearm blocks then slides into a mantis uppercut (dont know the name of move) to face.
Chop - To come from above and and strike down.
Contact - To get contact, i.e. set up a fake stike to the face, they block, contact is made, from this hook etc may be applied.
Cling - Once contact has been made, keep the contact.
Tag - To get in close to the opponent, one would presume this can be done in many ways using footowork.
Lean - Using body mechanics with a leaning motion for a take-down
Dodge - To dodge as the name implies which could be followed by a fist stike, kick etc
Bounce - This is one I am still unsure of, I see that LKW incorporates a kick into this, is it on its own to gain distance? I would like further input on this if possible.

Looking forward to your comments/expansion on this

Keef

[mantis108]

The list of LKW's keywords seems quite comprehensive. Thanks for posting it.

I posted these thoughts on my forum as well. Enjoy:

<<<Hi Keef,

Again the usual disclaimer that I am not respresenting any other but myself.

I think there are some threads here covering the 12 keywords. It is always a difficult task to tackle them since different schools have different versions. Some time they are practically the same thing but the volcaburaries changed. For example, Lo is understood as a grab in 7 Stars as in other mantis branches as well. In TJPM in general, Lo or the grab is applied to a specific target area. Depending on the target area and the follow through action, Lo could be either feng (sealing) or Bi (closing). 7 Stars in general seems to be less concerned with the subtleties of these mechanics. It rather looks at the immediate act which is - a grab is a grab. TJPM would look at the intent or the follow through of the act which is either to seal or to close with the grab. So then you would have hook grab pluck hang in 7 stars keywords while these are grouped under Feng Bi in TJPM keyword. In essence, both are talking about the same thing yet the expressions are different due to the different point of views. While both 7 Stars and TJPM would tell you they are both striking oriented, it is IMHO that 7 Stars doesn't concern itself with unbalancing the opponent first. It fights like a boxer (no disrespect intended), who seeks weakness in the opponent's defenses. Stick and move plus search and destroy type of approach. TJPM fights like a grappler who take every oppotunity to create weakness by unbalance the opponent. Position, position and position and flowing from one position to another kind of thinking. These different approaches are shown in their training which translated into the 12 keywords as well.

Personally, I feel that the 12 keywords are for the stylist to understand the true dynamics of combat in the tradition of the style. This is to say 7 stars thrives on the immediate action while TJPM feasts on the follow through. Both preceive spatial-temporal relationship with mantis skills differently although both shared the same roots.

Warm regards>>>

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Zhan1 Adhere/ Contact-Nian2 Stick/ Cling

These are usually considered together. In action they are to connect with an opponent and not let him get his arms free. This is not done by hanging on, however. It is the ability to contact the opponent's arms and maintain that contact by sensitivity guided reaction. By contacting and clinging one can feel the attacks or escape attempts of the opponent and neutralize them.

Often these two are described as moistening one's finger and picking up powder.

Initially this quality is expressed through the bridge arms though eventually this can be done with the entire body.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[Tainan Mantis]

WHF defines zhan nien /contact and cling as doing plucking(tsai, short for go lo tsai) 2 times.

In Meihua PM the term go lo tsai is replaced by mo pan.
Although the terminology is slightly different the concept is the same.

Go lo tsai to this hand and that hand.
This is the means to make contact with the body for applying the shorts of the body for striking or applying the takedown.

Good example is moves 20-22 of WHF's Duo Gang book.

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

Great to hear from you! Not to split too many hairs but Zhan Shou, (the two Cai Shou or hook grab pluck hands), also is differentiated from Nien as not being defined by a single technique. I agree that it is here that the short come to play or throwing.

Great post,

Steve Cottrell

[tanglang]

..and started up doing this already for me to follow the principle-discussion: I ry to make a translation into german taking up the differences between the lines also and make a list : LKW----- cantonese--- english explanation---- german explanation, other lineages--- the same ....so it would help if everyone who makes a post writes downunder, from whitch lineage he comes- what about this? Seeems to become an international project..:) So I take notes and it would be great if german bailung and GermanMantis or Tieh would help me doing this...

[keef321]

Steve,

Is it fair to say then that contact/cling is a fairly advanced technique due to the sensitivity required?

TangLang, Yes I am from the LKW lineage, Wo ungefähr du in Deutschland sie leben.

All,

As stated previously tag means to get in close, are we to translate this literally, ie. more than just using cross-leg stance?

Upward Block - to hang in mid air, are there other examples apart from the upward block for this theory?

Bounce - Is this used regularly without a kick.

[tanglang]

I'll send you a private mail with details- Hey, du kannst ja deutsch.Wo hast du das gelernt? In der Schule?

[keef321]

tanglang,

ja ich spreche ein bißchen deutsch, ich bin um nacht Schule jetzt deutsch lernen und ich fahren nach Berlin in diesem Jahr auf Feiertag im August :-)

Keef

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by tanglang
..and started up doing this already for me to follow the principle-discussion: I ry to make a translation into german taking up the differences between the lines also and make a list : LKW----- cantonese--- english explanation---- german explanation, other lineages--- the same ....so it would help if everyone who makes a post writes downunder, from whitch lineage he comes- what about this? Seeems to become an international project..:) So I take notes and it would be great if german bailung and GermanMantis or Tieh would help me doing this...


Allthough the whole translation thing is going to make a mistake from a mistake from a mistake .. I will help putting it in line... But please ask me per PN in German! ;)

[tanglang]

o.k. discussion about german translation via p.m. and then post or post- correction-suggest via p.m. and I'll correct..somehow like this maybe so the others don't have to follow our german linguistic discussion- hey Greman Bailung- I remember you were able to understand a bit mandarin, I think? This will help to avoid mistakes

[tanglang]

You'll get my p.m.s in german then... You mean "Abendschule";): Ich bin in der Abendschule, um deutsch zu lernen und ich fahre dieses Jahr im August an einem Feiertag nach Berlin..
Well then.. wish you a nice time there..

[BeiTangLang]

Ok.,..nice that you guys can speak german. There is a greman board I think that it would work great on,....in addition to personal messenger wich allows personal conversations to occur without involving the rest of the forum.
Thanks for understanding & do not take offence when I ask you to use them rather than go on chatting here.
Thanks & Best Wishes,
BTL

[tanglang]

o.k. sorry.. we'll send p.ms-;)

[MantisifuFW]

Keef,

Zhan/Nian is, as Tainan described and as it written in Wong Hon Fun's books, a specific technique but is also principle and describes a quality present in many techniques. I recall when I was trying to define what technique represented the keywords Lai sifu told me that I must broaden my thinking.

Still any concept can be taken to extreme and care must be taken when examining these ideas.

As for Zhan Nian being an advanced technique I believe that it should be present from the beginning but can be and should be developed to a high degree as one advances. It facilitates the eight short which enable one to finish an opponent at close range where things are very difficult to counter. It is more of a goal to be acheived.

Hope this helps,

Steve Cottrell

[keef321]

Steve,

Thank you for the explanation, yes maybe I put it across wrong by saying it is an advanced technique but rather as you put it, something that should and can be developed to a high degree. I have done the LKW contact cling drill with my sifu on a few occasions.

Yes I think many priciples can overlap into other principles , one of the good things I personally think the 12 keywords makes us do (well certianly for me) is due to the way they are put over to us we have to do a bit of thinking ourselves.

Keef

[tanglang]

So far we have: ( compared to the LKW-book)
Cantonese english german
1) OU hook festhaken, fangen
2) LOU Grapple fassen
-Tai Chi Mantis:
-feng seal abdichten, ver-
siegeln
-bi closing verschließen

3) TSAI pluck ( mention- pflücken,reißen
ed in LKW-book:
Pluck down fruits
from a tree--i.e. to
make opponent lo-
ose balance)

( OU LO and TSAI- mei hua: MO PAN- means?)
4) KWA Block from down to
above, hang up
something from a
lower to an upper
point ---- Block von
unten nach
oben

[tanglang]

5) TIAO-- intercept-- often used as OU/Hook-- abfangen, auffangen = "Mantis-hand"
6) PENG --chop: LKW: strike down from above----runterschlagen, zerhacken
WHF: " calls it DIEU DA- to strike after the hook"(Quote) ---Question: Doesn't DIEU DA mean " free hand"- German Baillung or anyone Cantonese- speaking person?
7) CHAN -- to takecontact to the coming attack---Kontakt aufnehmen
8) NIEN cling, to stick -"kleben"
CHAN/NIEN contact and then stick don't letting the arms get free again-----WHF sometimes called it plucking-action= TSAI though...is that right ?
9) TIEH --tag: get in close attack with the opponent by footwork----sich "dranhängen"
10) KAO --lean: use body-mechanic for take-down----anlehnen, abstützen
also TIEH/KAO together
11) SHAN dodge: escape and avoid comming attack--ausweichen, zur Seite springen
12) TENG_NUO--bounce: quick movement in a close contact with leg-kicking-technique:LKW--plötzlicher Sprung= sudden jump

[tanglang]

MO PAN, and its meaning and maybe DIEU DA- can you give a concrete example again maybe?-- sorry..:)

[German Bai Lung]

First Question:

dieu da: kant. doi da? Mandarin dui da?

If that is meant: the propper translation is: against hit(s) (doi means: against, da simply means Hit, Strike etc)

Free hand or bare hand is Kant: hong sao or mandarin kong shou (jap: kara - te!!)

[German Bai Lung]

The twelve keywords are better (in my opinion) used as 8 Basic Skills:

1) Au Lao Tsoi/wo lou cai: hook, grab and pluck in one movement
2) Gua Tong/gua tong: hang up something and strike
3) Bang Da/beng da: explosive Hit
4) Diu Tsun/diao jin: be tricky and go forward
5) Him Hsin/qian shan: go up and move sidewards (with the handmove Bo Choi: block and punch!)
6) Tip Kao/tie kao: to cling and lean
7) Chim Nim Sao/zhan nian shou: hand is etreme sticky (Chi sao... ;) )
8) Tang Na/teng nuo: bounce and jump on the other foot!

[tanglang]

O.k. then.Looked on LKW-formlist: Tou fa san DOI DA is translated into Peach Blossom Free Hand Boxing there- that's why I thought. there was my mistake.thx Jochen;)

[tanglang]

@ answer two: there you refer to our eight so called basic-techniques..;)

[German Bai Lung]

your welcome! :cool:

That Answer is for the "Ahh" Answer, but Seven-Star was too quick for me... with writing! ;)

[tanglang]

You just wrote the same..sorry..smile:) ahhhhhh! Verstehe..I understand.. they call me the quick-hand, you know;)

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by tanglang
5) TIAO-- intercept-- often used as OU/Hook-- abfangen, auffangen = "Mantis-hand"
6) PENG --chop: LKW: strike down from above----runterschlagen, zerhacken
WHF: " calls it DIEU DA- to strike after the hook"(Quote) ---Question: Doesn't DIEU DA mean " free hand"- German Baillung or anyone Cantonese- speaking person?

Dieu is the same word as Tiao (hook). So Dieu Da would be Tiao Da, (the Da is the same as you would use in Beng Da) It means to strike after the Tiao, (hooking) hand.



Originally posted by tanglang
7) CHAN -- to takecontact to the coming attack---Kontakt aufnehmen
8) NIEN cling, to stick -"kleben"
CHAN/NIEN contact and then stick don't letting the arms get free again-----WHF sometimes called it plucking-action= TSAI though...is that right ?

Chan Nien:
In Wong Hon Fun's writings there is a place where he gives an example of Chan as doing Ou Lou Tsai twice. I take this more as a single example.Chan Nien is a quality in many techniques.

For an example of Mo Pan, see LKW's book "The secret of seven star mantis style" page 101 figure 222-224 also called the Millstone Palm.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm, very interesting!

So Dieu (Diu) Da is the Diu Chun Movement with the Bo Choi like in almost every Seven Star Form!
Like: you grab with the Mantis hand (Diu Sao) and immediatly push a coming strike aside and punch by yourself! (Hope everyone can understand!)

Millstone Palm: Mo bun jeong with open Hands.

But the movement is alsmost similar but the applikation is total different?

[tanglang]

So you mean mo bun choeng ( Don't know if the writing of the last word is correct-- German Bailung- you know , I'm sure?thx) but what does MO and what does BUN or PAN mean translated, I meant? :)

[German Bai Lung]

as far as I know: mo means: gentle touch with the Hand, and Pan means: move, remove, shift!

For the Cantonese Words of all Techniques in the Lee Kam Wing Book, you can look here:

http://www.bailung.de/grundtechniken.htm

[MantisifuFW]

Mo Pan in Wong Hon Fun's books "Millstone" . In Lee Kam Wing's book different characters are used but I believe the meaning is the same, that of a "Millstone".

Good to get to know you guys.

Steve

[Young Mantis]

German Bai Lung,
Maw itself means to grind. There is another word that has the same sound but different tone and different character for gentle touch. It is very important to know which character is being used when translating.

Maw Poon refers to a grinding stone. LKW translates this as millstone although I don't have the book in front of me and don't know what characters he uses. Old Chinese grinding stones are a thick cylinder sitting upon another stone disk. The cylinder is spun and thus crushing the grain or whatever it is being ground. When using this grinding stone, your hands move in a circular fashion to turn the cylinder. When using maw poon sao, your hands move in a circular fashion as if turning the grinding stone.

It is important to understand that translating each word separately can often not have the same meaning as when two words are used in conjunction. I see several posts of people trying to understand a term by translating each character separately. While the meaning might be similar, it also is often not accurate to the true intent of the term.

Good luck with your studies.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


It is important to understand that translating each word separately can often not have the same meaning as when two words are used in conjunction. I see several posts of people trying to understand a term by translating each character separately. While the meaning might be similar, it also is often not accurate to the true intent of the term.

YM

Hi Young Mantis,

you are absolutely right! It was a Beginner (in speech) mistake! Sorry for that.
But for explanation: I began my studies of chinese Language and Culture at university and only the very old Language of the Chou Dynastie (1000 bc till 300 ad!). At that time almost all Words are only one character!

So I guess you are Chinese?

[tanglang]

thx for millstone-explanation!- it's a really nice allegory for the movement ..

[German Bai Lung]

In the first book (written by Sifu Leung Ting) i found the following:

ou - hook
lou - grapple
tsai - pluck
kwa - upward block
tiao-chin - go forward AFTER intercept
peng ta - chop
chan - contact
nien - cling
tieh - tag
kao - lean
chien-chan - dodge
teng nuo -bounce

and a very interessting note:

In the twelve-keyword Formula, the keywords ou, lou, tsai, kwa, chan, nien, tieh and kao are commonly acknowledged by martial artists of NPM, while the rest four keywords vary in terminology among different branches and individual practitioners.

For this reason, some martial artists of the 7* PM agree that the 12 KW Verbal formula should be o,l,t,k,Tiao(Intercept), Chin(go forward), Peng (Chop), Ta (attack), c,n,t and kao. As for the techniques of chien-shan and teng nuo, they are not included in the 12 KW Formula!

However, the author, after having discussed with Sifu Lee Kam Wing and searching into lots of available sources, finds that there are doubts about the terminology of the above 12 KW, which do not cover the scope of the techniques of the system. that is why we prefer the set of 12 KW as described and explained in the book by the author, bearing in mind that this is the personal idea of the author himself, and does not represent the opinion of all the practitioners of the 7* PM or other branches of Northern PM!

My note: the author was Leung Ting!

[German Bai Lung]

so now I check the characters (online dictionary):

mo: grind, polish
pun: basin, tub, pot, bowl

So, once more I must realize: chinese is not as easy as may seem... ;)
(nor english...)

Young Mantis: your explanation is very good.

So lets speak about the applikation: why does mo pun jeung used as a veriation of ou lou tsai ...
or am I wrong once again?

For me thats totaly different:

like young mantis said: mpj is circular and hitting the oponent with the hand from aside.

ou lou tsai controls the oponents arm and hitting him direct in the face!

[mantis108]

<<<In the first book (written by Sifu Leung Ting) i found the following:

ou - hook
lou - grapple
tsai - pluck>>>

Tainan mentioned WHF's Sao Fa - Tsai Sao means hook grab pluck twice. I think it is important to distinguish the tsai in the context of 12 KW and in the context of drill or application.

<<<kwa - upward block>>>

I believe there are 2 kinds of Kwa even as a check/block. WHF also mentioned inner and outer kwa applications. Not much details were given by him though.

<<<tiao-chin - go forward AFTER intercept
peng ta - chop>>>

I think there is a catch here. Tiao seems to be used as Diao. This could lead to a bit of a confusion. Personally, Tiao (lifting) and Diao (diagonally downward pulling or laterial pulling) are very different actions. Tiao, along with Beng, Pi, and Chong, also appears in the Qingdao version of 12 KW. These 4 words are very close in sounds with tiao-chin-peng-ta (HK version).

There are 2 possibilities - 1) it is a phonetic problem in oral transmission. 2) the change in the words is deliberate to reflect a change in mindset or development. I believe #2 is quite likely.

<<<chan - contact
nien - cling
tieh - tag
kao - lean>>>

These 4 words together with Beng Pi Tiao Chong IMHO reflect 7 Stars Long Fist heritage and perhaps its wish to be fully recognized as "Shaolin authentic".

<<<chien-chan - dodge
teng nuo -bounce>>>

These 4 words is in general body methods rather than hand method. They are IMHO very improtant as well. Beng Da Diao Chin are somewhat similar in certain sense. So LGY and/or his desciple(s) might have taken that in to consideration already.

<<<and a very interessting note:

In the twelve-keyword Formula, the keywords ou, lou, tsai, kwa, chan, nien, tieh and kao are commonly acknowledged by martial artists of NPM, while the rest four keywords vary in terminology among different branches and individual practitioners.

For this reason, some martial artists of the 7* PM agree that the 12 KW Verbal formula should be o,l,t,k,Tiao(Intercept), Chin(go forward), Peng (Chop), Ta (attack), c,n,t and kao. As for the techniques of chien-shan and teng nuo, they are not included in the 12 KW Formula!

However, the author, after having discussed with Sifu Lee Kam Wing and searching into lots of available sources, finds that there are doubts about the terminology of the above 12 KW, which do not cover the scope of the techniques of the system. that is why we prefer the set of 12 KW as described and explained in the book by the author, bearing in mind that this is the personal idea of the author himself, and does not represent the opinion of all the practitioners of the 7* PM or other branches of Northern PM!>>>

I think the disclaimer is quite appropiate. I should also say that my comments only represent my own opinions.

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
So lets speak about the applikation: why does mo pun jeung used as a veriation of ou lou tsai ...
or am I wrong once again?

For me thats totaly different:

In WHF mantis, we consider ou lou tsai as a concept.

Ou lou tsai can refer to the specific technique of hook grapple pluck punch. Ou lou tsai can also refer to the timing and flavor of execution of engaging an opponent with a sensitive interception, controlling the opponent, and simultaneously striking.

So we consider that there are techniques that fit into the class of ou lou tsai. Mo pun jeung then has the same style of execution as the namesake ou lou tsai motion.

Another example of ou lou tsai method can be fan tin yun. We also can do fan che chui in the style of ou lou tsai. So when you consider ou lou tsai as a concept or class of techiques, you can find ou lou tsai in many sequences, even in using shin kick with hand motions, for example.

N.

[keef321]

Robert,

I would be greatfull if you could expand on the two kinds of Kwa! It seems that some keywords are theory whilst others are actuall technique.

[mantis108]

Hi Kai Uwe Pel,

Thank you for the information.

That quote was part of an except from LKW's first book. German Bai Lung provided that quote btw.

I understand that LGY poured quite a bit of mantis material into Ching Woo. There is also an old book by one of the Ching Woo students that has quite a bit of Mantis stuff on it. Tainan has a copy of it. Personally, I believe that Beng Da Diao Chun were adapted (or shall I say inspired?) into the 12 KW from Eagle Claw because both styles were under the same Ching Woo roof at the time. Having a more uniformed use of terminology would reduce the confusion for the CW students. My position is that this well know version of 12 keyword is LGY or his students "intellectual properties" which reflects the efforts of their Ching Woo era. Personally, I believe that is just a sign of 7 stars turned a new page with LGY.

Best regards

Hi keef,

Gwa as a defensive move, let's forget about the offensive side for now, IMHO has 2 variations. We should bear in mind though that Mantis make use of both hands, even feet for that matter, during any action be it offensive or defensive. Most of the time, Gwa is understood as using the outer edge (pinky side) resembling somewhat of a Karate style block. This way of gwa has strong structural support. This is basically the outer Gwa. My understanding of the inner Gwa, is to make use of the inner edge of the forearm. In a sense, it can be viewed as a Tiao (lifting and raising). One thing of note is that inner Gwa has the elbow pointing directly down towards the ground as opposite to outer Gwa that is more lateral for the elbow. Inner Gwa lacks the support of the entire structure so it is more a finesse base more so than a power base technique. This is to say that timing, economy of motion, and hand-eye coordinations are important for the inner Gwa. Tiao Bao Zhou (lifting embrassing elbow), which in my mind became the 7 Stars' Qixing Bu Chui (the tiao is often omitted or replaced by dodging), is an example of inner gwa at work.

Hope this help

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[B.Tunks]

Hi all,

Gua as a technique can also be expressed as a vertical hanging block that goes up-out and across to outside the head (fist higher than ear) with the elbow straight down. This block uses the inside edge of the forearm and is found throughout Tanglang (eg; accompanying the second punch of Zhaiyao Yi Lu). It is generally used as a cover when charging forward and when crossing the body hides the attack shooting out from the opposite opposite arm. All these kinds of Gua can be used to attack the neck, head, armpit and are often used in throws, especially accompanying waist cutting or cross elbow.
hope this helps.
B.T

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm, I´m not a native english speaking people, so it took time to get the content of some posts!

So if you mean the move with the arm followed by a straight punch, it´s not kwa or Gua but diu tong choi! The movement is total different from kwa.
Sure, you can name every hard block with your arm kwa for simplification. But thats not the way ...

There is also:
tsa choi - a block with the inner part of the arm
sai choi - a hit with the inner part of the arm downwards (often followed by bong sao)
(diu) tong choi - a block with the inner part of the arm followed by a straight punch. The block also presses down the coming attacking arm with the fist to make the way free for your own punch...
and some more!

In my opion there is only one kwa/Gua: a block upwards with slight variations ... nothing more!

[Tainan Mantis]

Actually, I totally agreed with Brendan Tunks on this description of gua.
His description sounds like Jade Ring Hand of Mei Hua PM.
It is one of the most common techniques I have seen in this style.

In Jade Ring Hand the Gua becomes an elbow strike to opponents neck or temple.

Bai Long,
If you are in WHF branch then I think your gua has a minumum of 2 types.
That I posted in the other thread on gua.

[mantis108]

I think Brendan's description of Gua is the same one that I tried to come across. So I agreed with both him and Tainan.

All I am saying is there are 2 ways of Gua. It would seem that HK 7* favor what I would called Wei Gua (outer hanging) since that gua makes use of the outer edge of the arm (pinky side). The one described by Brendan is what I would call Nei Gua (inner hanging) since it makes use of the inner edge (thumb side) more. Now whether it is accompanied by a strike of the other hand or it becomes a strike in itself, it would be better to further discuss that. But basically, the action or principle of Gua would be IMHO laid out above already by different people.

BTW, I don't mean that Wei Gua equals karate's raising hard block. So relax. ;)

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Bai Lung/Long,

You wrote:

So if you mean the move with the arm followed by a straight punch, it´s not kwa or Gua but diu tong choi! The movement is total different from kwa.
Sure, you can name every hard block with your arm kwa for simplification. But thats not the way ...

I dont know what your talking about. I dont name every or any hard block as Gua and its not necesarily a hard block anyway, even when it resembles the conventional 'upper-block'
also:

There is also:
tsa choi - a block with the inner part of the arm
sai choi - a hit with the inner part of the arm downwards (often followed by bong sao)
(diu) tong choi - a block with the inner part of the arm followed by a straight punch. The block also presses down the coming attacking arm with the fist to make the way free for your own punch...
and some more!

If your illustrating these in disagreement with my description of Gua you are slightly off track. Everything you have named here are 'Chui' (and one 'Pi'), they are strikes. Yes, they are often accompanied by blocks and can also be used as blocks but are primarily 'hits'. These are not related to what I was talking about. I am not confused about the uses of these methods in any way.


In my opion there is only one kwa/Gua: a block upwards with slight variations ... nothing more!

Thats o.k, if thats what you've been taught you stick to it. In my opinion and every coach/shifu I have trained with; there are several variations of every principle. And the key point is; they are 'principles'.
hope that wasn't too rude of a response.
yours,
B.T

[German Bai Lung]

Hello Brandon,

no it was not too rude. If I can´t get any critism ohhh poor me!

So, when you wrote there be variations of any principle: I agree 100%! If there were no variations: that style will not work in combat!

But I´d tryed to make that clear in the other thread about gua.

Sorry for my bad english, I think thats a reason for some misunderstanding.

Hey, won´t some guys of you spend your vacations in Germany? I would like to train with you and diskuss the principles that way .. ;)

[MantisifuFW]

All,

Forgive my being out of communication but my computer burst into flames a couple of days ago and I have been in recovery mode. In my understanding of the Noi Gua Sao it is for WHF practitioners the second of the three palms of the Mo Poon Sao. This palm is seen in other techniques also.

Hope this helps,

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung So lets speak about the applikation: why does mo pun jeung used as a veriation of ou lou tsai ...
or am I wrong once again?

For me thats totaly different:

like young mantis said: mpj is circular and hitting the oponent with the hand from aside.

ou lou tsai controls the oponents arm and hitting him direct in the face!
If you know the "14 Roads" form, I believe it is the technique used in #14. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There is a big difference between Ou-Lou-Tsai and the hand technique used in #14 of the "14 Roads" form. The "14 Roads" form is also referred to as "The Basic 14".

[MantisifuFW]

Mantisben,

Indeed you are correct. Mo Poon Sao is very different from Au Lau Choi and is where you say it occurs in Sup Say Lo, (14 Roads).

The coiling motions of the Au Lau Choi and the spiriling motions of Mo Poon Sao are very different though the opportunities for using them are similar. That the different schools of Tanglang use differnt criteria for using them is not unexpected.

It is in the use of these techniques that the advantages of one over another becomes clear.

BTW, thank you for your insightful post on my article on the research into the origins of Tanglang. I will answer your questions soon. Unlike others who lack your intelect and reading ability, there is much to say. And I will tell you, (and others) in the coming days.

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by keef321
Hi Steve,
...
Upward Block - To hang in mid-air, as often seen with upward block and punch, any other examples anyone?
...

Keef
In my own thinking of Kwa as in "To hang in mid-air...", I've thought of using it in this way:

When someone grabs my right wrist/forearm with their right-hand, I simply "lift" my right-arm in the "upward-block" position with the opponent holding onto my arm, exposing their ribs/chest and throw a left straight-punch to their body (ribs, chest, solar-plexus). Naturally, as my right-arm goes up, the left fist shoots out, simultaneously.

The "lifting" of my arm lifts/hangs/suspends the opponents arm and I (attempt) to execute the "Black Tiger Steals the Heart" technique. I'm sure there are other PM strikes that could be applied at this point (and beyond this point).

This may not be "Kwa", but if "Kwa" means to "Hang/Suspend in mid-air", then me lifting my arm while the opponent is gripping it would effectively "Hang/suspend" the opponents arm in "mid-air" as well as my own. "Kwa" used in this way is not a block, but it is creating an opening to strike.

This technique has worked for me against opponents that grab my arms to prevent me from hitting them.

Of course, there are counters to this technique, as well as inappropriate times to use it.

I hope this was helpful, and if it isn't "Kwa", I eagerly await correction from anyone/everyone.

I also use it as an upward-block, but I haven't been able to use it comfortably as an upward-block. That is my own fault though.

[German Bai Lung]

Hello Mantisben,

the way you descibe Gua is a little bit like: tao sam choi: just re-grab your opponant and move your shoulder with the punch! You will be amazed about the power ...

For Gua as applikation in combat: I usually don´t teach it for fighting as very active move. When you got a good cover with both arms, just lift one a little bit and immediatly start the counter attack. thats it: gua! ;)

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
Hello Mantisben,

the way you descibe Gua is a little bit like: tao sam choi: just re-grab your opponant and move your shoulder with the punch! You will be amazed about the power ...
Is Tao Sam Choi the 3rd punch of #5 in the "14 Roads" form? Or the 4th punch of the 2nd road in the form "Spear Hand"? If it is, then I'll have to say "yes".

Still, I don't always re-grab the opponents arm because I get the same result from just lifting my arm enough to create a small opening. I will re-grab the opponents arm if I think my grip is stronger than my opponents.

The up-side of the way I do the technique is, for me, it is simpler in that I don't have to concern myself with securing a grab.

One of the down-sides of the way I do the technique is the opponent has to be gripping MY arm in order for me to lift HIS arm. If he releases my arm before I lift his arm, then I didn't create the opening I wanted, and my straight-punch to the body will be easily neutralized, effectively flushing my technique down the toilet... It wouldn't be the first time, either.

Another down-side is if I try to lift my arm, and the opponent just pulls down on my arm, then my punch to the body is also neutralized. It is much easier for my opponent to pull down my arm than for me to lift up his arm ( in general). It may have something to do with gravity.

I'm sure there are at least 15 other down-sides to the way I do this technique. I only use this technique because it has worked for me on more than one occasion, although not consistently (sparring only).

One other thing I'd like to mention about this technique is that I associate it (I could be wrong about this) with #7 of the "12 Flexible Methods" in the Lee Kam Wing's book where it reads "Attacking with one hand while the other is being grappled".

[MantisifuFW]

Mantisben,

I do not believe that you are off the mark though I would like to see and feel what you are doing.

Such creativity is a part of the path we all take. Lord knows I have started down paths, been corrected by my sifu and started again many times.

Let's get on to other keywords!

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Mantisben,

I do not believe that you are off the mark though I would like to see and feel what you are doing.

Such creativity is a part of the path we all take. Lord knows I have started down paths, been corrected by my sifu and started again many times.


Steve Cottrell Thank you Mr. Cottrell for your kind input. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to spar with at this time to see if I can still use it effectively. All I do now is practice my forms, hit my punching bag, stretch out, lift weights, and run. Neither to any extreme.


Let's get on to other keywords!
I have a question about 2 other keywords: Is "Ou" as in "Ou-Lou-Tsai" the same as "Tiao" as in "Tiao Chin"?

I know the difference between "Ou-Lou-Tsai" and "Tiao Chin", but I'm not super-clear on the difference between "Ou" and "Tiao".

I'm thinking "Ou" is the type of grab used before the first punch (Tung Choi) in the 3rd road of "Spear Hand" (WHF), and "Tiao" is the type of grab used before the hammer-fist in the 3rd technique of the 2nd road of Bung Bo.

I'm leaning towards them being different, but would like to know why from someone more knowledgable about PM than me.

[keef321]

Mantisben,

Thanx 4 your interpretation on the GWA, I had not thought of it in that context :-) making an opening via a Gwa Action, great stuff.

Look forward to further Keyword discussion

Keef

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by mantisben
I know the difference between "Ou-Lou-Tsai" and "Tiao Chin", but I'm not super-clear on the difference between "Ou" and "Tiao".


Ou or "Au" in Cantonese is different from Tiao Shou (or Dieu Sao in Cantonese).

WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a "Hoy Sao" or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It's only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent's hand. The second was a hook that grabbed for an instant then released. This one was called a Tiao or Dieu. This one would grab for an instant then strike or grab enough to restrain for an instant while the other hand struck. The third is the Au. The Au was a full restraining grab with the hook hand that facilitated either Tsai or Choi the sudden sharp jerking of an opponent's arm or that could go into Chin Na, (Kum Na).

There are no doubt other distinctions that I do not know of but that's my limited take on the subject. Hope it helps.

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW


Ou or "Au" in Cantonese is different from Tiao Shou (or Dieu Sao in Cantonese).

WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a "Hoy Sao" or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It's only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent's hand. The second was a hook that grabbed for an instant then released. This one was called a Tiao or Dieu. This one would grab for an instant then strike or grab enough to restrain for an instant while the other hand struck. The third is the Au. The Au was a full restraining grab with the hook hand that facilitated either Tsai or Choi the sudden sharp jerking of an opponent's arm or that could go into Chin Na, (Kum Na).

There are no doubt other distinctions that I do not know of but that's my limited take on the subject. Hope it helps.

Steve Cottrell
Thank you. That was very helpful.