skilled vs unskilled fighter??

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

Something we can all discuss besides what style of combat training we do.

Do find it is harder to beat a skilled/trained opponent or the unskilled/untrained ones.

IME, the less training someone has received the less predicable their actions will be and thus will make it harder to beat them.

Most MA styles I know somehow tended to develop certain tendencies and behaviour patterns which I find lacking in the untrained opponent.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

I am always extremely cautious about sparring untrained or inexperienced people for many of the reasons that you gave. They are very unpredictable so you must be on your guard. They are usually less controlled so they often end up using more power than they should. Generally I find they are harder to deal with at first, but after a while you can figure things out.

[Mr Punch]

Depends on whether you mean for practise purposes, or in a fight.

Semi-skilled and drunk are the worst conditions for practise!

Was full-contact sparring a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, a couple of bottles of vodka down, and we were lucky to only come out with a couple of bruises, cut knuckles, a cut lip and sprained thumb. OK, silly, but fun sometimes...

His background was a few years and a shodan in karate, and a couple of years of thai. But he hasn't trained for ages, nor sparred, so he remembered all the nasty stuff and forgot the control. Plus he also forgot what it was like to have blows coming at you.

I started out lightly, pulling and controlling everything but he was going crazy, thinking I was gonna beat the crap out of him I suppose, so he wasn't pulling anything. Fortunately space was short, so I crowded him in, keeping him off balance as he was trying to throw his knees, and controlled his arms, pushing him against the wall where I could biatch-slap his face...:D

Got to thinking in practise, half-trained people are almost as dangerous as fully trained people, if you leave cardio and brute strength out of the equation. They're unpredictable and uncontrolled, and thus prone to fits of anger.

In a fight, it doesn't make that much difference. Everything is pretty unpredictable.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Mat
In a fight, it doesn't make that much difference. Everything is pretty unpredictable.

I'll second that.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Originally posted by Mat
In a fight, it doesn't make that much difference. Everything is pretty unpredictable. "

Especially the 240 lb woman comming out of left field brandishing and empty clay whiskey jug!?
:D

Untrained person popped my shoulder out cause the dumb ******* didnt know the first thing about what he was trying to "show" me.
Once you get past the initial lack of control tho, its pretty easy to bully people around :)

[yenhoi]

Many filipino systems have developed training methods for the 'correct' response (trained opponent) and the 'incorrect' response (untrained opponent.)

At any rate, at some point in any persons training they should stop focusing on "techniques" and get into "principles" or "motions" or whatever you want to call the next step, either as an individual or as part of their structured training from a teacher.

Chaos.

:eek:

[Mr Punch]

I agree with Yenhoi.

There should be some move into anything in training that helps you to break your overtrained patterns or tendencies, whilst establishing some form of surprising physical contact levels... if you don't get it with your school, and you don't want to cause a fight with an unknown person, try it with basketball, rugby, other schools, masturbating with your left hand, getting drunk and walking into a stream of fast-moving traffic, anything...!

[chen zhen]

Many filipino systems have developed training methods for the 'correct' response (trained opponent) and the 'incorrect' response (untrained opponent.)

Is there any non-philipino systems that have this?

[yenhoi]

I dunno. Most Chinese systems do sensitivity drills of some sort, and most bypass the technique level at some point so there is no need for two 'methods' so-to-speak. Any form of grappling (Judo, bjj, etc... contact sports... etc) are dealing with energy also, so dual methods arent needed.

The filipino dual-approach is just the tip of the iceberg, eventually the 'methods' lead into energy-type-training. Sensitivity.

:eek:

[chen zhen]

Yeah, ok. I see.
But the unpredictable things that an untrained opponent would use *could* still be unpredictable even when u have trained sensitivity & all that sh!t.
U know?

[yenhoi]

Its all 'unpredictable' until you get inside their head.

For example:

When ever I use a high left hook, he covers rather then moving.

After one or two repetitions I can be reasonably sure he will cover the hook, and I will capitalize on that.

Same thing works for Attack by Draw, or feinting.

Same thing when you are outside your opponents guard and in contact with his closest elbow, he has to use another weapon to attack you, and you (having experience) can figure out which one it will be.

Same thing when you do hours and hours of sensitivity training and you slowly begin to learn what types of motions go with other types of motions and energies. Even more hours makes the familiarity with those types of motions and energies more then just familiarity, more then reaction, more then preparation and response, its gung.

So, even though things are still 'unpredictable' , you are still familiar with familiar types of familiar things and will act in a familiar manner. IMO

:eek:

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

IME, the less training someone has received the less predicable their actions will be and thus will make it harder to beat them.

Most MA styles I know somehow tended to develop certain tendencies and behaviour patterns which I find lacking in the untrained opponent.

Cheers.
Hi Laughing Cow,

I used to read this all the time on rec.martial-arts. I used to buy it about how it was more difficult to beat an untrained fighter. But, if that's really the case, why do anybody need to study any MA. Just bullrush the guy and swing away.

Yes, I agree untrained fighter will be unpredictable. But, doesn't it also mean that he would expose himself after the initial attack. He isn't used to fighting or trained fighting, so he would go for a big swing or a football tackle.

Shouldn't you be able to manuever out of his inital charge and then just light him up with punches, kicks, and a good throw if the opportunity exists?

Seriously, even a "untrained fighter" only has two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways he can attack you initially. You should have drilled that in your class and proceed to neturalize him after his intial attack.

But, if your "untrained fighter" is an experienced street fighter, then he would be tougher to beat. but, still there are only so many opening moves. unless he grows a third arms.

Of course, you can also attack him first. being a "untrained fighter", you might use feint to fake him out and then proceed to attack his weak side.

Or is your idea of martial art what Bruce Lee would described as "organized despair."

Seriously, MA will work as long as you don't put your mind in a "lock box". :)

a jab, a right and a throw, MA is really a simple game. If the opportunity present itself, take it. If there's no opportunity, use feint to create one.

wm

[Laughing Cow]

Wanderingmonk.

I agree and at the same time I disagree.

Maybe it is because my MA background is partial JMA.

I have had altercations with both experienced and in-experienced fighters, plus I have observed many more.

Most MA I have seen fight got confused when the attacker did not act/react in a situation that they were used to from their training place.

Also some styles I noticed seem to lack dertain defences against some attacks.

IMO, T'ai Ji has best prepared me for dealing with a range of fighters, thanks to the sensitivity drills.

JMA, gave me a lot of "correct response" training .

In sparring I agree you can work out the guys "patterns" in a real fight you might not have time to do so.

Cheers.

[yenhoi]

In sparring I agree you can work out the guys "patterns" in a real fight you might not have time to do so.

Very true. After the initial clash there will sometimes be a squareing off or a re-squareing off.

Regardless, you, as a trained person, will still be familiar with being pushed, pulled and doing the pushing and pulling. Big or small. Etc.

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi
[i]
Regardless, you, as a trained person, will still be familiar with being pushed, pulled and doing the pushing and pulling. Big or small. Etc.
:eek:

Agreed, but I only got to feel really comfortable with it after I started doing Tui Shou.

Don't know, might be personal, but somehow things just started clicking into place.

:D

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

I have had altercations with both experienced and in-experienced fighters, plus I have observed many more.

Most MA I have seen fight got confused when the attacker did not act/react in a situation that they were used to from their training place.

Also some styles I noticed seem to lack dertain defences against some attacks.


Laughing Cow,

Would you mind describing some of these "unorthodox attacks" which gave "trained" fighter problem?

I like to know, so I might drill for it. :)

Thanks.

wm

[Laughing Cow]

wm.

Anything that will cause the attacker to pause and give you a short time-period.

1.) Throwing coins at the attackers face.
2.) Ladies hitching up skirt and showing panties before kicking a guy.
3.) Telling a guy that they should rather have gay sex in the backseat than fighting him.

In short anything that is unexpected and out of the norm it will gain you enough time to launch an attack.

This things won't happen in a controlled sparring environment, but you might encounter them in a real fight.

Few trained fighters will resort to this type of diversion tactics, but many untrained and street fighters will do.

[Mr Punch]

Wandering Monk... looks like you're being facetious! :eek:
LC did say 'that they were used to from their training place.

So, tell us what styles you do, and I'm sure we'll find an attack/principle that's unorthodox for your styles... :D
Or wait! Do you practise the Ultimate Fighting Art with no holes in techniques or training? If so... tell us where we can get it...?!

[Mr Punch]

Sorry, just read another post of yours that I'd missed...

I don't agree that untrained fighters only come at you with football tackles or big swings. In fact most of the really nasty fights I've seen (with almost certainly untrained or semi-trained fighters) have started with sly moves like:

glass in the face: No Warning, No Body Language I could see to suggect it was goin to happen, No Notable Escalation of hostilities prior to the attack;

glass in the face: NW, NBL, NNE; in fact from when somebody had started drinking and the guy just hit the bottom of his glass;

seated front kick to the chest: NW, NBL, NNE; both guys sitting BAM seat goes over, head hits wall, end of fight.

After the start, especially if faced with any kind of stance, for any length of time, then feints and sneakiness, or pure outright aggression are always the order of the day. Difficult to explain any of the examples here, because the intent is different...

if you explain it in conventional MA terms, people will say 'you could do this/that', but when you get pulled/pushed/punched/kicked/butted/etc by anyone who's really lost it, it is a completely different feeling to someone who is intending to get past/through your guard, take you down and break your arm, punch you senseless, or break your jaw... I'm not saying they wanna kill you, I'm saying they are pure intent, not fettered by the intent to do something to you...
this is a different animal altogether (so yeah, Yenhoi, you're used to it in a training context... but).

How do you train against this? Either through paranoid delusional bolt-your-doors crap like HKV, through Zen no-mind nonsense, through the MMA caveat of training everything for a rounded game, or through picking fights in your local with anyone that moves...?

Er, no... you can't because real fights aren't predictable... so you may as well train as best you can for enjoyment, then just go down the pub... who knows what training you might find down there...;) :eek:

[WanderingMonk]

Hey Laughing Cow,

Thanks, and actually, I learned something similar. Ask the guy what he had for lunch (feint). Feint is both mental and physical.

Matt,

No, don't practice super-dober MA. Just your simple punch and kick, and A little shaolin long fist on the side.

err, you can't train against something that came with no warning. The only way to deal with it is situational avoidance. Don't mingle with the wrong crowds.

Yeah, dealing with someone who intent to take your head off would be scary. But, then your mindset has to change. It is you or him. That's mental training. Get him before he get you.

No, can't say I can win in the situation you described, but you got to have some confidence in your own skills. If you don't have any faith in it, it certainly won't work and your goose is cooked.

So, mental, physical and situation training is what needed. It won't gurantee victory but at least some protection against certain defeat.

wm

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I agree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with what I do and who I am...!

See: :D :D :D!!!

Just woke up on rant mode is all...!

[WanderingMonk]

Laughing Cow,

I just want to add one more thing. I don't consider a street fighter to be inexperienced. Every single fight he is in add to his experiences.

He might be untrained or semi-trained in the sense of formal Martial training, he is certainly trained in the school of hard knocks.

In formal MA training, we are supposed to be trained in techniques which worked for the teacher or the founder of the school. We, individually, have to adopt the technique which work for us and learn to use it in the approriate situation. So, each person has to do the research to find what work for him. However, a street fighter is trained in techniques which work for him. Every time he fights, he practice and research the techniques that worked for him.

In a sense, considering street fighter to be inexperience will be underestimating him. He trained himself by fighting and the bumps on his head are his "belt".

wm

[yenhoi]

Mat: situational awareness. Awareness(.)

You can only train so many things.

Sometimes sifu has to say.... "class is at the pub at 6th and G, bring your mouth pieces..."

Or not, but it needs to be addressed.

Learn that when the **** hits the fan, add some.

There is much study and thinking that can be done before these things happen. All the pre-signs that a human is ready to take damage and deal it, etc. From reading articles by smart expierenced people on the net, books in stores, and listening to smart expierenced people right in front of you to looking at your own expierences and figureing things out. The more you have the more you have.

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

wm.

Agreed that street fighters are experienced and ,IMHO , most of the trained MA and sports competitiors will get their asses handed to them by a good one.

All your trophies and wins in the ring as well as the hours in horse stances mean little when you are up against a guy that REALLY wants to hurt you.

Yenhoi.

All your training and study can only take you so far, problem is that most real confrontations happen beyond that point.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Laughing Cow, your icon keeps distracting me from reading your post, so far I have vague impression of what this thread is about. :D I think that's the best offense/defense you have!

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
wm.

Agreed that street fighters are experienced and ,IMHO , most of the trained MA and sports competitiors will get their asses handed to them by a good one.

All your trophies and wins in the ring as well as the hours in horse stances mean little when you are up against a guy that REALLY wants to hurt you.

Yenhoi.

All your training and study can only take you so far, problem is that most real confrontations happen beyond that point.

Cheers.

So what you suggest? No offense, but that sounded a bit trollish, rather something that Id post in my initial days in this forum.:p

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands


So what you suggest? No offense, but that sounded a bit trollish, rather something that Id post in my initial days in this forum.:p

What do you want me to suggest or tell you.

You wanna hear that MA is the golden answer to all your problems, that opponents will magically disappear?

Want some secret techniques and invincible techs?

There are no secrets in MA, there is no style or training method that will prepare you better than any other.

Train hard and correctly that is the best advise I can give.

One of my friends a 4th Dan GoJu Ryu national Champion got killed with 1 punch by a guy in the Pub.

****e happens and no training or MA style will prepare you for THAT.

That is the reality.

[yenhoi]

LC: I think you should take steps as part of your training to be the guy who throws a coin or knife at someone, lunge at them, get past their guard, grab their head or neck, twist, knock them over, and break their jaw on the ground all the while raining punches, kicks, knees, and elbows.

Intent works on all sides.

Intent is vital in combat.

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

Yenhoi.

I am doing so already. :D

As one of my Sifu used to say.

"If you got a brick handy use it, bugger fairness and good play."

Seeya.

[StickyHands]

LC, how did he die by just one punch? My point wasnt about "puff the magic dragon" doing sanchin! You said streetfighters have fighting experience as well, well like what, and realistically speaking, how do you counter that? Not every MA is bogus man, nor do they give you supernatural powers, but I was asking you what you 'consider' street effective fighting since you said all the training and competition in the world wouldnt save you. Since the street is beyond that point? Well beyond what point, are you telling me that the people in the street are huge Japanese demons and warlords carrying samurai swords? lol. Now as far as gun goes, ok... ur done, but I think there are some defense, a person cant be that helpless if he knows how to fight against a thug. Besides, most thungs go after golf t-shirt wearing man above 30, kidding. :D. Most thugs either carry a weapon or their knuckles, if your train knuckles and body, I dont see why you cant put up a defense.

[yenhoi]

LC: Im sure you are, I meant the universal you!

:)

There are lots of ways to die by one punch. If its landed correctly (more like luckily) you could explode someones heart. A punch landed on someone already off balance or moving the wrong direction could do little damage, but knock them over, into a table, a curb, or into the 12 foot pit of burning spikes below you...

If your going to fight, you have to fight! The berserker troll on the kungfu training thread has it right! GO AFTER HIM. Do what it takes to take him out, and I agree that most people training in most training places are actually training themselves to only fight in those nice, padded floor environments and not for what 'really' happens.

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

He got a straight punch to the head and something happened to his neck.

I never said that any MA is bogus, don't put words into my mouth.

Reread what I posted.

MA training is designed to teach you to react and think in certain patterns, there are few that go beyond that and those are the true masters.
Each MA style was created to counter a certain opponent and than modified from there on.

IMHO, the term" street effective fighting" was coined to sell something to gullible people, there ain't such a thing.
Most "street fighters" normally are not alone when they get into a fight.

The average punk that fights on the street will use whatever it takes to win, and preferably stuff that you won't or is illegal.

All I am saying that People must start to realise that MA is not the end or the final answer, yes, it helps in a confrontation but that is all that your MA training does.

The MA and soldiers of old knew that.
Read some of the stories of soldiers and MA from some time ago, plenty of time you will hear the following:
"We heard that Bandit XYZ was in the neighbourhood and thus we trained skill X four times as hard in order to overcome his skill Y for which he is famous."
If they went unprepared against that Opponent he would kill them, and those were trained and skilled MA.

But now these days everybody got the answers and counters to everything and even though we train a fraction of the time and intent that the guys of old did we are more skilled and deadlier than them.

If you want to be good at fighting, you need to become a fighter FULL-TIME, like many of the MA of old were.

Nuff said.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive always thought it would be kinda cool if everyone knew different styles and you could just legally fight people on the street... and people would keep it reasonable, stop when it needed to be stop, like a kung fu movie :)
hehehe
But thats never going to happen. :(
Oh well. Maybe its time to go to the bar districts in Taiwan.
:)

[StickyHands]

Geee, LC chill out, remember we a re buds. Dont get so emotional, take some gin-seng. :D So basically what you said is common sense, I asked my question cuz I thought you were sating something else like, MA idiots, you're doomed, you're doomed, street fighters are have tapped some unknown potential. Not all of them wants to kill you, some just wanna beat the crap out of you. And the fights aren't always avoidable, because there are times when it becomes inevitable and then you just gotta fight.

[Laughing Cow]

StickyHands.

I am a TMA guy and tend to be rather cool.
;)

Just tired of the guys walking into a kwoon to learn the invincible art of XYZ.

Or watching them train with such a lukewarm attitude that even after 10yrs they haven't improved much and than go online and talk how tough they are and how experienced they are.

I see many students simply showing up simply going through the motions and think that they are training hard.

Here is an example:
One guy came up and said he does Zhang zhuang for 1 hour while watching his favorite TV-show.
WTF. :eek:

Seeya round.

[StickyHands]

LOL. You should "test" his street skills right about now.... pounding pounding

[Jook Lum]

Hello everyone!Interesting thread,I have no great revelation to add only my two cents.IMO i believe in a confrontation both should be treated as dangerous,although they may fight differently they both want to hurt you,so neither should be taken less serious than the other oneWhatever style you train in(or no style at all)you should train as real as possible and against as many kind of attacks as possible,also try not to have any expectations of what the other person will do.Take what they give you and use it.It is also good to get hit once in a while(not full power,but enough to know that you were hit)during practice,to many people practice only how to not get hit and lose all composure when(or if ) they do and have a hard time recovering.No matter how good you are you can be sucker punched,a lucky hit or make a mistake in your timing or technique,nobody is perfect.