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mubarazaad
12-30-2000, 06:19 PM
For all of you who are interested in Islamic Knife fighting and combat science check out:

<A HREF="http://www.rimah.cjb.net" TARGET="_blank">www.rimah.cjb.net</A>

take care,

hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.

JerryLove
12-30-2000, 09:29 PM
Islamic? Well, I guess anything a muslem does is Islamic. But it is not, as implied, Arabic. He directly cites to teaching Kung Fu. The rest is a mix of indo and fillipino stuff.

From what he shows anyway. (Or should I be saying "you" instead of "him"?)

Mind you, I'm not picking on the material itself, but I don't see why it's called Islamic.

mubarazaad
12-31-2000, 12:29 AM
Hi jerry,

that's a question I get alot from people who are unfamiliar with the religious cultures of the people in the middle east, african and southeast asian countries.
Firstly the southern phillipino martial arts of kali silat are from the Moro people who are very religious and pious muslims who through there experiences have created very effective fighting methods that are very famous nowadays. Secondly Silat which is also very popular in america now is from Indonesia and Malaysia which are both Islamic Republics. The Chinese Wushu you mentioned comes from the "Hui" people in the northern parts of china who are muslim and constitute the largest minority in China, they have developed many very famous style like cha chuan, baji, tan tui, pigua, qishi, and many others. I hope this give you some more info about the method and cultures of these areas.

hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

JerryLove
12-31-2000, 12:46 AM
Fair enough. But the silats have been in Indonesia far longer than the Muslems have (in all likelyhood longer than the religion of Islam has been in existence). And the spritual aspects of the Pentjaks are decidedly non-Islamic (anyone want an antig antig, or to call spirits to go into a trance?). Many of the Kuntao and Pukilan practitioners are Buddist or Christian from either Chineese or Dutch ancestory/religion. In fact, the only Muslems I have met in Silat (in my very limited experience) were the head of the Seni Gayong style and one of his students (Chiku Madgid and Soloman)

The point is, though many Muslems practice Silat and Kali, they were not invented by muslems, they are not muslem in their traits (any more than Boxing is Christian because Christians invented it), and the are not "Islamic arts".

IMHO of course

8stepsifu
12-31-2000, 02:25 AM
It has way more techniques than most pay sites. I noticed that you were warping your hands Master Pan style. Ever hear of dit ta jow? You can have rock solid nuckles and palms, without the arthritis. To each his own, but why deform yourself when you don't have to? Thats karate stuff. I don't doubt that Master Pan has his reasons and I have nothing, but respect for him, although I do think he must be a little mentally off to do some of his more Spartan feats like 1,000 spear thrusts working his hands literally to the bone.

anyway I love this technique description......

"Here Im accosted by a bigger tougher thug, he is off course unaware that Im going to rip his eyes out"

If your not bleeding, your not having enough fun.

mubarazaad
12-31-2000, 05:01 AM
Hello again jerry,

This discussion is becoming very interesting now. Ok first I must say that I do agree with you to some degree but remember that you are looking at this from a western christian mentality. In the Islamic mentality the concept of country is secondary to the concept of the muslim "ummah" which is the community as a whole wherever they may live throughout the world. The reason why I refer to the term "Islamic Martial Arts" is because for muslims, when a martial art or anything is created it is given first to the ummah, and it belongs to all muslims regardless of where they may reside, and that is the one and only reason why it is and always will be an Islamic Martial Art, because the people who practice it give priority to their religious belief before that of country or tribal affilliation. Everything is given to the ummah first.
If you understand islam then you will easily be able to grasp that concept.

Hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

JerryLove
12-31-2000, 05:41 AM
My point is over this line.

"when a martial art or anything is created it is given first to the ummah, and it belongs to all muslims regardless of where they may reside"

The Silats in general, were not created by Islamic people. Even if the particular style you practice was created by a Muslem, it still owes Hormat to the Silats it comes from.

If a Christian, or a Buddist, or whatever changes the rules forboxing, that does not make boxing a Christian or Buddist martial art.

I am curious about the "dedicates everything they create" part. Does that mean if the founder of the XFL (American Football league) is Muslem, XFL football is Islamic football? Also, if what we do belongs to all Islamic people, is it right to charge to teach it?

Interesting topic.

mubarazaad
12-31-2000, 07:16 AM
I agree Silat was created and used by the indigenous people of Indonesia and Malaysia before the arrival of Islam, but these same people who founded the systems took Islam and the ideologies it is founded on as their own, integrating them into their culture and therefore accepting to live according to the teachings of koran. The first warriors who went on jihad to propogate the teachings of the prophet were also very experienced and skilled fighters with many battles behind them, with them came techniques, methods, and strategies which were shared with the people of the areas they went to, creating a mix which slowly developed into the Silat systems that are practiced largely by muslim people today in Indonesia and Malaysia.
This does not mean that face or respect is not given to the people who created the systems, it means that the major exponents of the systems who are descendants of the founders have chosen to put Islam before all and amongst themselves even refer to their specific styles as "Islamic fighting styles" rather than indigenous styles, also because the majority of the people practicing these Silat styles are muslim people.
When reading articles or speaking with muslim martial artists from Malaysia or Indonesia it is normal to hear Islam and Silat in the same sentence, martial science is tradition in Islamic culture, the flag of Islam carries the sword as a logo, so the people don't see a separation between Islamic culture & Silat, all they see is a paragraph in the koran that clearly states combat training as an obligation to muslim men, therefore fusing the two things together in their mind.
As for the styles being for the ummah, yes they are but also the needs of the instructor must be kept in mind also. I have never been in favor of the commercialization of martial science so I believe that those who deserve to learn and can pay should pay and those who deserve to learn but can't pay should also be given the opportunity. In these cases the quality of the individual is more important than money.

Hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

old jong
01-01-2001, 01:39 AM
IS KILLING A RELIGIOUS ACT?

C'est la vie!

mubarazaad
01-01-2001, 04:44 AM
If you are referring to Islam, then in my opinion the answer is yes, as long as it is in defense of the religion or the muslim people, jihad(struggle) and war against oppressors is a pillar of Islam.

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

JerryLove
01-01-2001, 04:48 AM
This was such a nice talk that I'm not even gonna go there.

mubarazaad
01-01-2001, 07:47 AM
I agree jerry, anyway thanks alot for a great discussion.

hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-01-2001, 08:16 AM
jerry,

I see from your profile that you study with Guro Clear in florida. In your style of Silat do you employ reverse grip knife trapping? if yes what are your experiences regarding the effectiveness of this method.

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

JerryLove
01-01-2001, 05:42 PM
Although my preference is for the standard, forward grip, we are of the "you get the grip you get" belief and so practice both. Wile I've no combat experience using a reverse grip for trapping (I presume you mean sung the knife as a trapping tool, not trapping the knife in someone else's reverse grip, correct me if I am wrong there), I'll tell you what I've seen training.

My personal preference when I am armed is to keep the knife in play, so I avoid tying it down against an unarmed opponent. While I am a big fan of trapping against a knife, I am not as big a fan of trapping with one. But the situation can arise.

I don't use any one-handed trapping with the knife (I'm not sure weather there is any or not) I will use the knife in the same situations I would use an open hand as part of a joint hyperextension. I also find that using the knife to "pull out" and arm leaves you in an excelent position to filet up the arm to the neck or ribcage.

But as I said, most of my attacks, reverse-grip, are punch, slice through, withdraw. What are your experiences with it?

Kyoshu
01-01-2001, 10:16 PM
"The point is, though many Muslems practice Silat and Kali, they were not invented by muslems, they are not muslem in their traits (any more than Boxing is Christian because Christians invented it), and the are not "Islamic arts"."

Yeah, In Philippines, they told use that Arnis was used in history before any outside religions where introduced. IE: Arnis and Sundang were already used long before the people of Lapo Lapo fought the Spanish who tried to Christianise us.

Kyoshu

jojitsu27
01-02-2001, 02:05 AM
In Islamic knife fighting, how many whites or christians do you have to stab to get into heaven?
-jojitsu27

mubarazaad
01-02-2001, 03:59 AM
Hi kyoshu,

I agree with you, but now Bangsamoro(Moroland southern phillipines) is Islamic and they don't care about anything else. They say their kali silat is muslim martial arts, if you don't believe me ask them.

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-02-2001, 04:07 AM
Hi jojitsu,

Killing anyone without reason is unacceptable, Im sure that's a principle in your religion also.
Any real fighter regardless of style or religion does not hurt innocent people, we can all agree on that.

thanks for the post,

hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-02-2001, 04:16 AM
jerry,

I can honestly say that in all my time with the blade I have never used a trap or disarm succesfully against an opponent in sparring, however, when training ambush simulations knife traps have worked for me.
Did you ever manage to disarm a person while knife sparring fullcontact?

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

Black Jack
01-02-2001, 05:46 AM
In a balls to the wall sparring format, trapping with the knife is a very diffcult tactic to apply as there is no element of surprise and both combatants are using the structure of range to each others best advantage.

In a situational ambush scenrio, binding with the blade becomes a easier tool to apply as there is that element of surprise on your side but it is still a diffcult tool to use when the trap goes awire and you are then forced to grapple for a better position to strike and you may have to give your attacker a few tip rips to losen up his grip on your then trapped blade.

I have found that the basic outside crossing or trapping skills can be used with a blade a lot easier than the upper gate binding methods and takedowns.

I always will try to defang the snake at anything that gets into my Largo Mano range but once I get into close quarters I like to cross him up and sneak a few thrusts into the lower vitals or if I happen to have a reverse grip a nice jab to an exposed armpit will do.

Regards

DragonzRage
01-02-2001, 07:14 AM
you really don't like muslims, do you?

There is only one martial art.

JerryLove
01-02-2001, 07:21 AM
Yes, I have done a disarm against a knife successfully. But unless I am *much* better than the person I am sparring with, the guy with the knife usually wins. Simple reality I am afraid.

mubarazaad
01-02-2001, 08:27 AM
I have a question for everyone since we are on the topic of knife disarms. Let's say for example I would offer you a technique or training method for empty hand fighting and I told you that this method has about 1.5% chance of working for you in actual encounters but I want you to dedicate 25% of your training time on perfecting it, what would you say? let me guess, "hussein you are truly insane". Since this would be the answer most people give then why is it that when I say scrap disarms because in actual fighting you have about 1.5% chance of success and 98.5% chance of death, everyone goes nutts on me? I think I know why, fillipino martial arts are in fashion on the fad hungry martial arts scene, just like Ninjitsu was in the 80ties and BJJ in the 90ties so obviously they can do no wrong.
All you progressive jkd,bjj and a little fillipino martial arts guys, If you saw an Aikido player do the same joint lock type knife disarm that Remy Presas does you would laugh and disregard him as foolish and traditional but when master Presas does it it's ok, that doesn't make much sense to me.
Im from a traditional family and I guarantee you can not disarm me even when Im blindfolded.
so why all the disarms brothers? why take such a big risk when so many other more efficient options are available with less risk to you and that are faster to execute.

riddle me this riddle me that.

Hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

JerryLove
01-02-2001, 06:43 PM
I find several techniques with decent chances to disarm, depending on the attacker. Most of these techniques work even better against empty-hand attacks.

For example, smothering the knife with one hand while tjimande-ing the arm. It's supposed to break the arm, but from sparring experience I can tell you it often causes the knife to drop.

Smother the knife and the person holding it. Smother him until you get him into a wall or the floor, then start manipulations or stomping as appropriate.

Slap and pass.

Counter cross-cut with your own knife.

Hit the hand with a stick (defang the serpent)

Then of course, there's all of Seti-Hati. I've terrorized a few lower-level sparring partners when they had a knife with that. Decoys and welcoming postures can work well.

And in answer to your question (and you have the percentages wrong) "because it can save your life"

old jong
01-02-2001, 07:57 PM
You live in a free country and you have the right to practice your religion and live your life according to your culture.Most people will respect your way of life and leave you in peace as long as you respect our laws and you're not causing a danger to our society.
Now,imagine the poor soul who would go to live somewhere in the islamic world and open a school with the sign:Christian fencing taugh here,learn the fighting art of the crusaders"...How long do you think he would lives?
I'm sure that you get the idea.
There is something else.When I looked at your site and saw these weapons(guns)and ambush techniques,I could not help but think of a terrorist training school! I'm sorry about that but the image is there and it can be offensive to some.Do you realise this?

C'est la vie!

Black Jack
01-02-2001, 09:16 PM
I dont know what you have agasint JKD or the FMA arts but Grandmaster Remy Presas is not the end all be all of the Filipino knife fighting culture.

There are over 7,000 islands in the Philippines and the mother art of Kali can be dated back to the Malay SriVishaya empire in 8th century A.D. so I don't understand the fad comment.

Just some of the other FMA systems include the close quarter infighting style of Pekiti-Trisia, the multiple attacking method of Doblete Rapillon, Kali Illistrisimo by the legendary Antonio "Tatang" Illustrismo who had to use his method many times in fights to the death, Panananadata system, Cadena de Mano (chain hands), Balintawak, Doce Pares, Serrada, Visayan, Inayan style, Largo Mano, Toledo-Collado, Babao Arnis, De Cuerdas and KunTao Silat.

Whoever stated that a FMA artist is going to head for a disarm? Its better to check/pass the blade and strike than to get tangled up into a binding situation, IMO at least.

Since the FMA arts are so complete in there approach to weapon work there are of course strips and disarms like Saplit or Hawak-Sunggab but practical footwork and striking with a small core of basic and simple techniques is stressed for survival.

Knife fighting is a rarity in itself as in most occurances you will not have time to deploy your own weapon. The FMA arts cover knife vrs knife and hand vrs knife with the same level of deep combat knowledge.

For weapon work I think that the FMA and IMA systems are the best out there with the FMA methods being better in terms of vocabulary and quick growth for a person with no prior combat skills.

The FMA combatitives though thought more of as a weapon based system have excellent hand to hand training that covers all of the situational ranges of fighting.

Some even focus on a select range like Dumog, Sikaran or Keena Muti.

Regards

Knifefighter
01-02-2001, 11:28 PM
Hussein,
I agree with you 100% about not being able to get a disarm against a skilled opponent who is fighting you with a knife. I believe disarms should be your last resort. I don’t think you should scrap them, however, as they could be the difference between "just" getting sliced up vs. getting killed.
That being said, no matter who you are or how skilled you are, if you are empty handed against a skilled opponent with a knife who wants to kill you, you don’t have much of a chance in the first place.

mubarazaad
01-02-2001, 11:32 PM
Hi old jong,

Firstly we do not endorse any form of violence against any innocent persons, especially on my website I would never allow it.
My family just sees martial arts in a more combat oriented way, ambush techniques and military type training with martial arts is the way it was in olden times and the way we think it should be always. Guns, knives, all this stuff is all part of martial arts as a complete combat training methodology not just self-defense. There is nothing I feel ashamed about more than seeing a martial arts black belt getting beat up by a street thug, but that is what happens if you take away the combat/aggressive mindset that makes martial arts functional.
I care very much about martial arts and everyone that practices it, train hard, be tuff and don't disgrace yourself by letting your martial art degrade to dancing art.

your brother,

Hussein

La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-03-2001, 12:28 AM
Hi blackjack,

I never meant to say that filipino martial arts is not good or inneffective. As you said check/pass is a better option always but when it comes to disarms I have spoken to many filipino martial arts masters and read many articles about their styles and for some reason disarming is always one of the first things they start discussing. Just for once I would like to have a straight answer from one of them why they waste so much time teaching something that they even admit is almost impossible to accomplish against an experienced bladesman.
If someone can explain that to me clearly then I promise never to question it again.

riddle me this brothers,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-03-2001, 12:30 AM
Are any of you guys Dog Brothers?

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

Taomonkey
01-03-2001, 01:01 AM
Wa Salaam Alekum
Peace and Greetings Hussein,
There is a very good reason that we FMArtist practice disarms, if you continue at them they become easier, through the movement teh weapon is disarmed or dropped. My goal in knife is to not get cut, to control the blade and disamr if possible, and it is often possible. (sometimes I disarm your blade into you).
I guarantee you that a Presas could disarm any weapon you are holding, not because of supreior technique, but because they have the skill to do it through years of practice and challenge matches. I caution your calling FMA a fad, there are many sects of Islam that others would call a fad, and not true Islam. Ther reality of combat is often misssed in words on a page, or even in a seminar (I assume that was your exposure to Remey Presas). As MAster PAn would tell you it is through time that understanding is acquired, and my friend time will teach you.
Now to the subject of Islamic Martial Arts, true there are moro arts but teh same arts are practiced by non muslims. But we classify arts by teh culture that spawned them, not their country of origin. So is the use of Islamic Arts wrong, no more that refering to Gung Fu as Chinese. While the arts may have existed for time before Islam, they have incorporated many aspects of the culture into their movement, creating a style. And that's what we all have, various styles of Martial Arts, bassed on the needs and cultures of the people who passed them on to younger generations.
Peace to us all!
GK

mubarazaad
01-03-2001, 02:03 AM
Salam Taomonkey,

I agree with you we can refer to them as Moro martial arts or Islamic Martial Arts, both are correct.

take care guys,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

Kyoshu
01-03-2001, 02:06 AM
"I agree with you, but now Bangsamoro(Moroland southern phillipines) is Islamic and they don't care about anything else. They say their kali silat is muslim martial arts, if you don't believe me ask them."

That's how it is in Philippines, people can get away with anything. Look at the Abusayef (sp).

Kyoshu

old jong
01-03-2001, 02:06 AM
I hope that you don't mind my questionning.I don't want to attack you in any way and your answers make me believe that you're a good guy after all! (even if you look like a klingon warrior ready to defend his honnor!) :D :D :D
There is still something bugging me.Are you not worried that one of your students might defend himself with a knife?we never know,when the habits and the techniques are there.The laws are clear about that and it's a problem when a juge find that there was eccessive force applied in the defense.Do you have young students?(your style may be more practical and tempting to carry in the street than say kendo or wing chun knifes)
My last question:Is your school open to everybody?
Salaam! or in quebecois salut ;)

C'est la vie!

mubarazaad
01-03-2001, 02:29 AM
Hi old jong,

I am happy you see that I am not a thug, I just want martial arts people to be what they train to be, fighters.
Anyway regarding training, I train with anybody, you do wing chun so I guess we can learn alot from each other.
As for the laws, I always obey the laws of the place I live or visit.

Salut mon ami,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

old jong
01-03-2001, 02:41 AM
Thank you! Au plaisir de se rencontrer! :)

C'est la vie!

Knifefighter
01-03-2001, 02:52 AM
I am. Why do you ask?

Disarms- I would have to say the probability of getting a disarm is inversely proportional to your opponent's skill with the knife.ˇ

"I guarantee you that a Presas could disarm any weapon you are holding, not because of supreior technique, but because they have the skill to do it through years of practice and challenge matches."
A rather strong statement, don't you think? I would pretty much guarantee the opposite if the knife wielder is decent..

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 01-03-01 at 07:00 PM.]

Black Jack
01-03-2001, 03:40 AM
Hussein I did think your webpage was excellent and it is nice to see a instructor who realy takes the self defense aspect of his art very seriously.

I almost always carry a tactical folder/spyderco civilan on me for self protection and if I ever had to bring it out than I know that I have failed all my other options.

Jo the use of a blade is a last resort and should be saved for those times that you have to apply that kind of damage. Multiple attackers, weapons, muggers, rapists, burglars and other strict situations.

If you have the chance to bring a blade in combat it is also not a fixed win either. A person can receive multiple deep tissue cuts and still continue to attack and they may not even feel the cuts under an extreme AD dump.

Having a serrated edge on your blade or wavy blade pattern will help the attacker feel the steel as I have been told.

As for the knife vrs knife disarm issue I can only voice what I train to do. In this type of training situation I like to keep my distance and slash whatever is foolish enough to get close to my zone...aka defanging the snake...this is a simple tool that requires no complex grappling skills and it allows you to respond with a counter slash or thrust at a fast rate.

Regards

mubarazaad
01-03-2001, 03:43 AM
Hi knifefighter,

I saw Top Dogs instructionals on power and the snakey stick, You guys are really good. Now for my question, in your experiences have you ever fought knife VS knife and the fight ended up in ground range with one of you coming out of the engagement without wounds that would surely kill you?
Everytime I spar blade VS blade and it ends up on the ground some how, which is a rare occurence anyway, myself and my opponent almost always sustain non survivable wounds.
Do you guys get similar results in ground range?

thanks,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-03-2001, 04:12 AM
Blackjack,

Thanks alot for the comments, one kind word makes it all worthwhile.

take care brother,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

Knifefighter
01-03-2001, 04:44 AM
I’ve done quite a bit of knife vs. knife, both at the gatherings and in training. You are right about the wounds sustained when you get inside and/or on the ground and both guys are skilled with the blade. You both end up taking some very serious damage.
I have occasionally come out with what I believe would be survivable wounds. When this has happened, one of three things has occurred. 1- I have used my knife faster and to more lethal targets to "kill" my opponent before he would have been able to kill me; 2- I have controlled the opponent’s weapon hand with my free hand and used my weapon against him before he could free his hand; 3-I have gotten rid of my knife, controlled the opponent’s knife, peeled the weapon away, and used his knife against him.
?

Knifefighter
01-03-2001, 05:44 AM
One thing about fighting with knives on the ground- you’ve got to understand the principles of the ground game to make it work with knives..

Reima Kostaja
01-09-2001, 03:22 PM
Hi,

Mighty fine site you have Hussein! Really interesting and informative stuff. Keep it up.

thekuntawman
07-06-2001, 09:04 PM
al hamdu allah, i love your website

in addition to what everybody saus about "islamic martial arts", when we say islamic martial arts we practice our religion in every way we can. so as a muslim there is somethings we can and cannot do, like bow unless we are in prayer. also a muslim is forbidden to cripple an opponent or cause him unnecessary pain. so for example if the opponent prove himself to be your enemy and we must fight we have to be to the point and spare him unecessary pain and crippling. so because of this technique that is popular in the philippine martial art, like the "gunting" can be considered haram if the purpose is to maim the opponent when there was a safer way to deal with him, or kill him quickly if it is necessary. this is martial art practice with islam.

now to the person who says that he is offended by the muslim use of "islamic martial art", this is no different than how people who learn the philippine style now they claim they are doing WMA "western ma". there is a feeling of pride in things from our own culture so people look for these things to study. the same way many chinese people might prefer to study chinese art, and so on. our pride should not offend you, unless you just dont like our culture or you feel threaten by our pride.

oh and you are wrong jerry, maybe most silat seminar in this country is done by christian dutch people, or western educated indonesian people who converted to other religion, but in indonesia and malaysia and the philippines most silat men ARE muslim.

JerryLove
07-07-2001, 01:36 AM
You should have just started a new thread.

"in addition to what everybody saus about "islamic martial arts", when we say islamic martial arts we practice our religion in every way we can."

Then you should realize the extreme huberus you exercise to use "Islamic" (designating something of Allah) rather than "Muslem" (designating something of muslems).

"so as a muslim there is somethings we can and cannot do, like bow unless we are in prayer"

To be specific, you are not allowed to show subjugation to anything except Allah, and bowing is considered a sign og subjegation. Therefore you can bow whenever you wish, but only to Allah.

"like the "gunting" can be considered haram if the purpose is to maim the opponent when there was a safer way to deal with him, or kill him quickly if it is necessary. this is martial art practice with islam."

Considering the prevelance of guntang (sccissoring) in Silat, that would kind-of make my point for me.

"now to the person who says that he is offended by the muslim use of "islamic martial art", this is no different than how people who learn the philippine style now they claim they are doing WMA "western ma"."

And I would argue the same thing to them.

"there is a feeling of pride in things from our own culture so people look for these things to study. the same way many chinese people might prefer to study chinese art, and so on."

That's the indo culture, not the muslem culture.

"our pride should not offend you, unless you just dont like our culture"

Now that you mention it. Something about the widespread killing of women and children and ethnec Chinese. Something about the hunting of tribal enemies to make dinner out of them. You know, if this is an example of Islam in action, I don't think I would be out there suppoorting it if I were you.

"or you feel threaten by our pride."

Self-rightous people always make me nevrous. That's why I'm armed.

"oh and you are wrong jerry,"

I'll requote myself.....

"Many of the Kuntao and Pukilan practitioners are Buddist or Christian from either Chineese or Dutch ancestory/religion. In fact, the only Muslems I have met in Silat"

Are you saying that there are not many Buddist and Christian practitioners? Or that I have met more muslem practitioners than I said?

"maybe most silat seminar in this country is done by christian dutch people, or western educated indonesian people who converted to other religion, but in indonesia and malaysia and the philippines most silat men ARE muslim."

Non-sequiter and unproven. What is the percentage? From what study? How many per Pentjak or Kuntao practitioners compared to Poukilan?

IcedSamurai
07-23-2001, 01:56 AM
I'm Filipino, so I should know these.. heheh.
There are three Filipino Martial Arts:
Arnis, a Martial Art that is well known and it is from the northern part of the Philippines, Luzon.
Eskrima comes next which is in the middle of the archipelago, Visayas.
Then there is Kali which is the southern Filipino martial art, from Mindanao.

and if you are confused of how to spell Philippines, I will say it:

P h i l i p p i n e s for the country,
F i l i p i n o for the people

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Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..

IcedSamurai
07-23-2001, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "I agree with you, but now Bangsamoro(Moroland southern phillipines) is Islamic and they don't care about anything else. They say their kali silat is muslim martial arts, if you don't believe me ask them."
That's how it is in Philippines, people can get away with anything. Look at the Abusayef (sp).

Kyoshu
[/quote]


Hahahaha! Abu Sayyaf sucks! That guy should be assassinated. He's worse than Castro.. his supporters kill Filipinos who are not supporters.. they kill them and then you turn on the TV and you see the news saying there were 3 rotting heads dug out from a local forest. I'm p*ssed that he and his supporters are still there in the Philippines killing more and more people. I'm 14.. haha, I've recently visited the Philippines at the beginning of summer and I've seen all these Abu Sayyaf crap. It's also funny. They had the Lechon(roast pig) festival and they showed a lechon dressed as Abu in a bamboo cage. hahahah

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Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..