HFY Family Tree

[Phil Redmond]

I am not familiar with histories of some WCK lineages. And even though they may have been around for a while some are new to me. Can someone give any insight to the HFY family tree? There are names of people I personally have never heard of. I would appreciate any helpful information.
Here is the link:
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/...family_tree.php

[Chango]

It would be a pleasure to discus this topic with you. Please send me your e-mail and I will be delighted to help you with any questions. If there is anything that I cannot help you with just contact Sifu Meng personally. I look forward to your response.


Sifu Chango Noaks

[reneritchie]

Phil,

In the 1980s there was a journalist in China named Law who stumbled upon the fact that Cheung Ng, great contributor to the Red Junk Opera, had the nickname Tan Sao. Knowing something of WCK, and the Tan Sao movement, he felt there must be a connection and, contacting Pan Nam, he eventually came out with an article suggesting the Ng Mui/Yim Wing-Chun legend for WCK was a cover for the real historical figure of Cheung Ng, whom he claimed learned from a 22nd generation Shaolin monk (or nun) Yat Chum. You can find more on both Yat Chum and Cheung Ng at http://www.wingchunkuen.com/who/founders/index.html

In the original family tree Gee sifu sent us for Complete Wing Chun, Cheung Ng directly taught the Red Junk actors including Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, etc (similar to Pan Nam's family tree following the article). This, however, is chronologically problematic and Cheung Ng was active in the mid-1700s and Wong et al in the mid-1800s.

The VTM (they include material both from Gee sifu and from their own efforts) introduces several Chan family members to span the time frame in question. Only they can expand on that.

One of the hairpins of the opera (like Wong Wah-Bo) was Fa Min Biu (I forget his real name, I might have it somewhere), who was one of the 'painted face' performers (like Red Junk leader Lee Man Mao and Yuen Kay-San and Chi Sim ancestor Dai Fa Min Kam). Biu is written here as Hung Gam. Hung Gam is like a red turban. Due to the history from the Ming dynasty, it wasn't uncommon for Society members to wear red turbans as symbols (for example, when the Red Junk members took to the streets of Foshan, the common folk put on red turbans and went out to support them and eventually they took control of the city for a time).

The rest of the people are the family through which the art was reportedly passed down, ultimately to Gee sifu. As you may have noticed, perhaps due to the politically problematic periods of rebellion and revolution that persisted in China through the late-Qing and into the Communist era, Gee sifu seems to want to respect the privacy of his lineage. To fold in your other question, given the timeframe, Wang Ming would likely be very, very old, if still alive, and in a region so dense, even if alive, very difficult to track down (even if that's his real name and not something symbolic since it reads out 'King (of) Ming (Dynasty)'

I would recommend contacting Gee sifu directly with any and all questions regarding his art. He is very generous and engaging, and seems able to cut through the clutter and answer questions both simply and directly.

[Chango]

Thank you for speaking for the HFY family again Rene. However I think we should make things clear.

<snip> The VTM (they include material both from Gee sifu and from their own efforts) introduces several Chan family members to span the time frame in question. Only they can expand on that.

--Let's make it clear that the purpose of the listing of "chan family members" was not to "span the time frame in question". Maybe you did not mean it in that way Rene, but I will just make it clear for all readers of the forum that the VTM has simply listed the information provided excatly as it has been provided. If your information did not have these "Chan family members" you should perhaps contact Grand Master Gee personally yourself to get more accurate information for your records. If you did not mean for your words to discribe the intent of the VTM you can disregard this portion of the post all together. :D just for the sake of keeping the facts in order John Murphy was the one who sent you that information not Grand Master Gee.


<snip> In the 1980s there was a journalist in China named Law who stumbled upon the fact that Cheung Ng, great contributor to the Red Junk Opera, had the nickname Tan Sao. Knowing something of WCK, and the Tan Sao movement, he felt there must be a connection and, contacting Pan Nam, he eventually came out with an article suggesting the Ng Mui/Yim Wing-Chun legend for WCK was a cover for the real historical figure of Cheung Ng, whom he claimed learned from a 22nd generation Shaolin monk (or nun) Yat Chum.

---- This explains (your) account on Cheung Ng. From a single Journalist P.O.V. In the near future the VTM will be presenting book with alot of information! I think you will be pleasently suprized by the information on the subject of history! keep in mind the VTM has recieved this information. Varified it and cross referenced it first hand against information provided by other historical institutions. I will only say at this point that However that there are those who know Cheung Ng from opera historial account where he is also known as Tan sau Ng. If we look further into this via historical opera organizations we find that this information is valuable in cross referencing information on Cheung Ng. I cannot say that I speak for the VTM so I will gracefully bow out of further discussion of current discoveries as I do not know enough to disclose this informations in it's complete since. So I have to say that I agree with you that for the time being it would be a good Idea to contact SiGung Gee or the VTM for the sake of accuracy and for further elements of our rich family tree!

Sifu Chango Noaks (SGS)
:cool:

[canglong]

If I might add a little to what my Sibak Chango has just stated simply that is Redmond Sifu, for the type of information you are seeking anything less than contact with Grandmaster Gee and or the VTM directly would appear to be a great disservice to the information itself. This particular forum has little insight into HFYWCK let alone its lineage.

[Phil Redmond]

I don't know how to contact Garrett Gee. I did though pose a question regarding Dr. Wang Ming on the HFY forum. I got 2 responses. The first one was that the forum was not designed to address this question. The 2nd response was from Benny Meng who said the due to privacy this is not a subject discussed with people outside of HFY. I felt that was the end of the line in terms of getting any information from HFY so I tried here hoping that someone else might have some insight.

[canglong]

Redmond Sifu, Sigung Ming is the correct source to answer HFY questions of this nature and I see that you already know how to contact him. I just doubt that this forum can be of bennefit in answering questions pertaining to HFY. Good luck and much continued success in your training.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/index.php

[Phil Redmond]

Thank you canglong for directing me to Benny Meng. I believe cross referencing is scientific way to reach a conclusion. My problem is that I'd be getting information from someone who has a vested interest in promoting HFY. I don't mean this to say that Sifu Meng wouldn't tell what he believed to be the truth. This also goes for my vested interest in promoting TWC. I tell people what I believe to be the truth until I find out differently. You might say that the people in the best position to give information on HFY would be people on the inside, but outside research, (some sort of crossing referencing of names dates etc.), 'could' be helpful also. Regardless of what some may say. I see many similarities in HFY and TWC. Someone said that even a 3 percent diffence in DNA means a different species. In genetics that might be true, but not in gung fu. I'm basing my opinon on the SLT form I saw Benny Meng perform on tape. He says it's not the real form. I can't argue that point. I also base it one some of the theory I saw Garret Gee demonstrate on that same tape. For instance, what we call the five stages of combat. I also saw that HFY has the six gates theory, (I'm not sure if others use the six gate theory). The HFY salutation using the closed left fist and the right wu sao is also similar to TWC. 'Most' other gung fu styles are opposite. My interest lies in what "I" percieve to be similarities. One more thing. how old is the HFY logo? http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/logo.htm
I will ask him though.

[Geezer]

Sifu Redmond Wrote>

The HFY salutation using the closed left fist and the right wu sao is also similar to TWC. 'Most' other gung fu styles are opposite.

One Example!!!! (http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/)

Sheldon

[canglong]

Redmond Sifu,
I was unaware you were cross referncing information you had already obtained from Master Ming, I didn't mean to send you in a circle. My family is the only point of reference I have on this topic so I can't help you there but if you have any more questions for us don't hesitate to ask.

[Phil Redmond]

Thank you canglong.

Geezer,
That example looks just like the Bak Mei salutation.

[Geezer]

Sifu Redmond,

Looks like there's more than more style that uses it, HFY, TWC, Shaolin White Crane and Bak Mei(White Eyebrow)???

Sheldon

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Geezer,
I get your point. In my initial post I said, " 'Most' other gung fu styles are opposite". I purposely wrote 'gung fu' to indicate Southern styles.