Degrading to kickboxing

[Archangel]

I've heard this phrase thrown around on this forum. Whenever it seems a traditionalist gets hit in sparring or in competion he somehow "degrades" into kickboxing (bouncing, hands in boxing guard) instead of fighting like his style has taught him to. I never liked this phrase but why do you think that it happens?

[old jong]

I have never seen the term "degrading" as you mention. I have seen "bad kickboxing" instead many times. It is very appropriate because when a Kung Fu practitioner who is not properly trained encounter some big troubles in a fight,he will naturaly fall into some aproximate boxing exactly like 8 years old kids do when they happen to fight at school.

You want to talk about the lack of "resisting opponents" or muay thai or something similar?....You want to talk about sport/ring fighting when 99% of kung Fu people are not training with that goal in mind?...Or what?...

[Laughing Cow]

I think it mostly has to do with ego and not willing to dmit to themselves that their style is not infallible.

Also too many "MA" think that their style needs to look like what they see in the movies.

See below an excerpt from Taiji students that observed Chen Fa ke for the first time and their reactions in relation to what they were taught.


In the beginnings of my Wu style Taijiquan studies, teacher Liu (i.e. Liu Musan) told me, that the slower the movements, the better the skill, that is: the better the skill, the slower one can practice. When teacher Chen came for the first time to teacher Liu's house, after exchanging the greetings, he (i.e. Chen Fake) performed the First and the Second Routine of Chen style Boxing; everybody prepared over an hour to admire famous master's art. Unexpectedly the demonstration of both routines took only several minutes, and the Second Routine contained some leaping and very fast movements, and Chen's stamping shook tiles on the roof. Teacher Chen sat (with us) for a while after the demonstration and then left. Afterwards everybody was making comments - some said Chen practiced so fast, that considering the principle "move like pulling the silk" the silk would tear; some said stamping did not conform with the rule of "taking steps like a cat". However teacher Liu said: "Although the movements were fast, they were all round; although the power was issued, he was still relaxed; since we invited him, we should learn; after we learn the routine, we ask him to teach Pushing Hands; if he is better than I, then we continue to learn the Second Routine". Hearing this we all decided to study with Chen Fake.

The first question I asked teacher Chen when we started out study was "Should the movements be slow or fast?". The teacher answered: "The beginners should practice slowly, so that the movements are correct. Practice makes perfect, so after long time one can naturally be fast and steady; when fighting the speed of the movements depends on the opponent's speed; practicing slowly is the method to learn the boxing, but it is not the goal. However when movements are slow, the legs are exercised for a longer time, which is also beneficial." Since that moment I kept my mind on my study. However the way I was learning is worth mentioning, so I'm writing it below for reference.

Full Article (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html)

[Christopher M]

Well... kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically "low-level." This means they're very basic and there's no skill involved; like two kids fighting. Traditional arts, especially chinese ones, are very "high-level" - basically, alot better. But if someone who is high-level has something holding him back, he's going to look low-level... just like if someone low-level has something holding him back, he's gonna look even stupider. And the main thing holding back chinese martial artists is that they have to be really carefull not to kill their opponents during sparring, or if they stoop to the crude level of sport fighting for some reason. Basically, they have to hold back all their best techniques for fear of killing their opponent... it's like fighting with one hand behind your back, so obviously they look worse... and since kickboxing is worse, they look like kickboxing. I think that about covers it.

[yenhoi]

Well... kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically "low-level." This means they're very basic and there's no skill involved; like two kids fighting. Traditional arts, especially chinese ones, are very "high-level" - basically, alot better. But if someone who is high-level has something holding him back, he's going to look low-level... just like if someone low-level has something holding him back, he's gonna look even stupider. And the main thing holding back chinese martial artists is that they have to be really carefull not to kill their opponents during sparring, or if they stoop to the crude level of sport fighting for some reason. Basically, they have to hold back all their best techniques for fear of killing their opponent... it's like fighting with one hand behind your back, so obviously they look worse... and since kickboxing is worse, they look like kickboxing. I think that about covers it.

Bullshiit.

Fighting looks like fighting. Always.

Im probably being trolled, but it has to be said. Just in case.

:eek:

[Golden Arms]

LMAO at that last post! Heheheh:cool:

[truewrestler]

LOL @ Christopher M... that is truly classic

[joedoe]

Very good explanation, except you forgot one distinction. 'Internal' CMA are even higher level than 'external' ones, so for an internal practitioner to stoop to kickboxing is an even worse fall from grace. :D

[SevenStar]

The term thrown around here is "reverting to kickboxing" But, how can you revert to something you've never trained in? All you are reverting to is sloppy fighting, not kickboxing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Well... kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically "low-level." This means they're very basic and there's no skill involved; like two kids fighting. Traditional arts, especially chinese ones, are very "high-level" - basically, alot better. But if someone who is high-level has something holding him back, he's going to look low-level... just like if someone low-level has something holding him back, he's gonna look even stupider. And the main thing holding back chinese martial artists is that they have to be really carefull not to kill their opponents during sparring, or if they stoop to the crude level of sport fighting for some reason. Basically, they have to hold back all their best techniques for fear of killing their opponent... it's like fighting with one hand behind your back, so obviously they look worse... and since kickboxing is worse, they look like kickboxing. I think that about covers it.


ROFL:D

[Water Dragon]

Christopher M has kidnapped the Correct and sodomized it with a sharp stick.

[truewrestler]

Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn't look like kickboxing...thanks

[Brad]

Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn't look like kickboxing...thanks
Well, I don't see normal kickboxers throwing people... CMA styles have punches and kicks too... not sure what exactly what everyone's looking for.

http://www.cungle.com/downloads.html

[truewrestler]

LOL Brad, ok... show me a San Shou fight that doesn't look like Kickboxing + Wrestling or any other combat sport. Show me a San Shou fight that doesn't "degrade to kickboxing".

Edit: Cung Le is an awesome fighter... too bad he isn't good enough to use anything other than low-level Kung Fu ...haha

You guys are really funny

[Brad]

I still get confused by the term, lol. CMA is basically kicks + punches + throws + chin na(joint locks/manipulation, etc.). Kickboxing looks like basic Chinese Martial Arts :p In the CMA styles I've practiced there were roundhouse kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks, front thrust kicks, side thrust kicks, jabs, hooks, upercuts, knees, elbows, etc. basically everything that's legal under various kickboxing formats. Cung Le looks like an example of what good kungfu to me should look like in a ring enviroment(even though technically he's a mixed martial artist I guess). Watching the Cung Le vs Rudi Ott clip, he mostly stays rooted to the ground, looks relaxed, doesn't bounce around on the balls of his feet when throwing a technique, had good power & speed in his movements, and can take a hit :)

[Archangel]

SevenStar noted, how can you revert to something you've never trained in; which is a very good point. However, when you look at it a little closer fighter's aren't really reverting; instead they are adapting to what is thrown at them. If you get punched in the head enough hopefully you are going to learn to keep your hands up in a guard. If you can't seem to time your strikes you start to shift your weight on the balls of your feet and sometimes "bounce". Techniques that are low percentage will almost never be attempted and you'll use the most basic and simple means to defend yourself.

It really seems to me that the "kickboxing" style is the most natural way for most people to strike. Why don't people fight like a snakes? why don't people fight like cranes or other animals. Well that's because we're are human beings with 2 legs and 2 arms and we should really study the most efficent and natural way for us.

[truewrestler]

"Kickboxing looks like basic Chinese Martial Arts"

From what I have seen I think Cung Le is one of the best fighters in the world....regardless of rules or styles. I'm sure no one on here would agree with that since he only uses low-level Kung Fu.

[old jong]

You can revert to something you never trained in because it is part of the cultural environment. Boxing is very natural for an occidental .As I said before,you will see little kids "reverting" to it .The same with wrestling. We imitate .That's all. That must be the real "monkey style" ;)

[Marky]

Hi all,

From what I've seen, when some kung fu guys get in the ring, they take a hit in the face and just don't let it go. It sticks with them and they think, "I should have used this block, I should have attacked this way," and when that happens, they've already lost. The reason they seem to "revert" to kickboxing is because that's what they see in the movies, and they MIGHT have the biased belief that kickboxing is something they somehow "know" just because they know something they consider to be "better", whatever that means. So while some are probably trying to revert to what they think will work (of course, no matter how much they look like a kickboxer outside of striking distance, they're terrible once they're in range to attack, from what I've seen), others just throw their training out the window because they're too busy thinking of their training and not how to actually use it. Of course, I might be wrong about the majority of people, but I've seen anecdotal evidence of both cases more than once.

In either case, it seems to come from a lack of trust in the system, which stems from everyone's desire to believe that THEY didn't make the mistake, but that the method is at fault. No one wants to accept that they have to get hit in the face sometime, no matter how good they are!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn't look like kickboxing...thanks Saw a great one live in a shoot tournament last year... posted about it before cos it was so great and so unbelievable but...

really cool Chinese dood, dunno what style he did (being in Japan it just said 'kungfu' anyway), got a complete ridiculing because he was Chinese (all the Bruce Lee noises etc) from the crowd, then proceeded to kick the **** out of two opponents, followed by taking the final into an extra round, which he lost on points, despite the whole crowd by this time shouting for against the decision...

his stance was low, and mostly a back-weighted or side stance with one leg in the air (!!!), his speed was awesome (his reaction to throws was to flip back up), his timing impeccable (his opponents couldn't sweep him), his foot power was horrible (a lot of stop kicks to the leading legs, followed by high kicks to the head/mostly the body on the bounce), his clinch work was excellent (ie get out and kick punch/or stay in and throw/sweep), his sweeps/throws were superb (in fact the judges' decision went against his throws cos they weren't considered clean by anyone except all of the audience and by the state of him, his opponent - think the judges were not used to judging anything but stand-up)... and it looked nothing like kickboxing, even against the kickboxer...

problems: can't remember his name, John Chow/Chan/Chong/any other generic Ch name here :rolleyes:; can't remember the date (summer); can't remember the venue (not a usual MMA venue); can't remember the name of the tournament or the promoters (it was small, and one of the promoters killed himself later in the year, so it's unlikely to be repeated: but it did have some reasonably named fighters in it like Jeremy Horne); have no ****ing video...

so I guess that means it didn't happen... big phat :rolleyes:!!! No, the record is there, just depends on if you know how to find it...! I'll ask my friend who may or may not remember cos he got his head taken off that day, but that doesn't mean you're gonna believe him, a pro-fighter, anyway does it... ?:rolleyes:

**** proof anyway, it's overrated, just ask George Tony Blush!

[Mr Punch]

Sorry for posting again, but OJ and Marky are both correct, I think.

[truewrestler]

Ryan Bow is awesome! :)

Here is Jeremy Horn's record... the event should be listed. Let me know if you can figure out which event... click event name to see fight list.

http://sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=202

Edit: actually if the fight was San Shou it wouldn't be listed there...but the event should be if Horn faught MMA there

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Christopher M has kidnapped the Correct and sodomized it with a sharp stick.

LOL :D ;)

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, he's pretty good, and a really really nice guy. Had a bit of a bad run but seems to be back on form. He really kicked ass in the last fight I saw him in... can't remember who that was either...!

Oh arse, just looked at Horn, I saw him in Pride 21, not at Ryan's match... maybe I've taken too many punches... I can always remember faces, and the names and faces of people I've met but I'm **** at celebs...!:D Wonder who that big geezer was at the one I'm thinking of then... The biggest guys were in one of the guest fights with different rules (so was Ryan), so it probably wouldn't be listed on their records (... talking of which, Ryan's record is nowhere near up-to-date anywhere on the net).

I'll ask Ryan anyway, he'll remember the event if not the Chinese guy's name. Problem with this evidence thing though... it was a first-time promotion, and if the chinese guy hasn't got good backers, he probably isn't going to make it again. I don't think the purse was any good, especially for second. So that's another (OK, well at least one :D ) good KF fighter consigned to anonymity!

[truewrestler]

haha, thanks for trying though... I believe you

What do you think about that Genki Sudo clip I had up? I bet he could pull off any style/stance he wants in a fight he is so good and crazy :D

[Mr Punch]

Didn't see the clip, but I've seen him... I think...!:D He's good, eh,

[Chang Style Novice]

Side kick?!!? Not even present in Muay Thai, immensely important in Sanshou.

Try again.

[truewrestler]

It is integral to full-contact karate too.... your point?

By the way I was being serious about believing Mat.

[Chang Style Novice]

My point is that sanshou differs from kickboxing (if by that you mean muay thai) in simple, obvious ways. Wasn't that your question, how they differ?

[truewrestler]

No, I wasn't asking a question.

By kickboxing I didn't specifically mean Muay Thai. I meant kickboxing... the sport. I'm sure there are things in Muay Thai not in San Shou.

[Chang Style Novice]

No, I wasn't asking a question.
Please show me a fvcking San Shou bout that doesn't look like kickboxing...thanks
Well, I guess that's technically a request, not a question, but that's splitting hairs five ways. Whenever you see a side kick, it's different.


By kickboxing I didn't specifically mean Muay Thai. I meant kickboxing... the sport.Okay then, show me a kickboxing match where sidekicks are used a lot. If that's not enough difference for you, show me one where kicks are caught and the supporting leg swept, or other throwdown type techniques are used a lot. That sounds like plenty of distinction to me.


I'm sure there are things in Muay Thai not in San Shou.Then why the hell am I arguing with you? You're admitting here there's important differences, but your initial claim is there are not. What side are you arguing anyway?

[themeecer]

Nice Chris M. :) Let's see how all the flamers fare against the king of debate. ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Brad

Well, I don't see normal kickboxers throwing people... CMA styles have punches and kicks too... not sure what exactly what everyone's looking for.

http://www.cungle.com/downloads.html

does normal kickboxing include muay thai guys?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Side kick?!!? Not even present in Muay Thai, immensely important in Sanshou.

Try again.

It's present...rare, but present.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by old jong
You can revert to something you never trained in because it is part of the cultural environment. Boxing is very natural for an occidental .As I said before,you will see little kids "reverting" to it .The same with wrestling. We imitate .That's all. That must be the real "monkey style" ;)

Then you aren't really reverting to kickboxing. You're reverting to a pale imitation. Pummeling someone with your fists is very natural. Grabbing them is very natural. But both of those things are light years away from actual boxing, kickboxing, or grappling, surely. To insist otherwise (and I know you aren't) is, indeed, degrading to those styles.


Stuart B.

[David Jamieson]

First off, there is a huge difference between doing 'martial arts' and practicing to achieve 'kungfu'.

external, internal, it all is superfluous to the actual goal. These are all just catergorical and descriptive terms used to define small parts of what Kungfu is.

One can do Kungfu all their life and never be in a fight.

There is an idea in many peoples heads about how competition level fighting is the measure of any art. I would not hold to this idea. An 'art' is a total approach and not a segmentation of the whole.

Sport fighting is fine and certainly one can take aspects of their kungfu into a ring or a street fight or what have you. They certainly aren't taking it all in there with them.

Competition is for those that are driven to do it. It's simply not for everyone and some people value the fighting aspects a whole lot less than many of the other benefits derived from total Kungfu practice instead of just the segment that is fighting.

Kungfu is holistic. It isn't "just" fighting, or fighting fabulously. To not see this point is to not understand the fundamental purpose of kungfu.

cheers

[lkfmdc]

The reality is quite simple, so called "traditional kung fu" people can't fight. They feel impotent, woefully incapable and worthless, thus they have to try and find excuses and cover their rear ends. Thus, when they look at REAL fighting, ie San Shou, they have to find ways to explain why they don't last 30 seconds....

Traditional kung fu guy with "famous" Chinese master to one of my guys are nationals last year; "you hit me once and all I saw was black"... he didn't see black for very long, the whole match was 43 seconds....

now, little children, go back to playing with your tin foil broadswords and make sure you point your finger at that bell from 30 yards so that in 5 years you can make a chicken blow up with your chi blast

[apoweyn]

I don't really think of kickboxing strictly in the competition sense anyway. I regard it as a method of fighting and training first. And a competition format second.

I personally don't compete, but I like the self-evidence and empirical nature of kickboxing.

[MasterKiller]

Traditional kung fu guy with "famous" Chinese master to one of my guys are nationals last year; "you hit me once and all I saw was black"... he didn't see black for very long, the whole match was 43 seconds.... I suppose that match was governed under sport fighting rules? Kung Fu is not a sport, and was never intended to be one.

[Archangel]

Old Jong,


You can revert to something you never trained in because it is part of the cultural environment. Boxing is very natural for an occidental .As I said before,you will see little kids "reverting" to it .The same with wrestling. We imitate.

I'm a little scepticle of this; When I was a little kid on the playground we used to start in the typical exagerated karate and ninja stances before the fight. We were very influenced by what we say in bruce lee an other martial arts movies. However though when the fighting did eventually start and we were getting hit, we'd switch to more of a boxing stance. It was way easier to move and protect yourself.

Muay Thai fighters hand strikes are almost exactly like western boxing. Clips I've seen from asian tournaments also show kickboxing like stances and strikes. This is too big of a coincidence to be overlooked? Why does every fighting event with full contact and knockouts allowed look suprisingly similar.

MasterKiller,


I suppose that match was governed under sport fighting rules? Kung Fu is not a sport, and was never intended to be one.

Well neither was Pankration, but modern wrestling evolved from it. Neither was Jujitsu but it eventually did. I really don't see the argument here; Sport fighting with full contact and knockout rules are based on:

a) controlling the range of the fight
b) striking hard
c) striking with acuracy
d) measuring distance
e) measuring timing
f) toughening your body
g) handling an adrenaline dump

These skills are extremely important to any fighter and I'd say to any martial artist.

[lkfmdc]

LMFAO

Dude, give up on the secret chi blast dim mak crap....

If you can't block and cross and a leg kick, forget your secret kung-fooey...

Let me guess, you think if there weren't any rules he'd have jumped up in the air, used the secret thunder kick and won the fight...

And people wonder why the mainstream laughs at kung fu

[MasterKiller]

Did I say that? You're such an @ss.

What weight gloves were they wearing? Heavy gloves prevent grabbing and joint locking.

What were the rules concerning elbows, knees, and joint strikes?

If all you are doing is throwing jabs, roundhouses, and occassionally bear-hugging for a takedown, then it's not exactly what kung fu people train for.

If this guy couldn't handle basic techniques, then he deserved to get beat. I'm sure your student is a good athelete, and probably competes very intensively. However, you are worse than the grapplers when you spout off about all TMA not being able to handle themselves or take a punch. If the KF guy doesn't train like the San Shou guy, he will lose in the ring, and guess what--KF guys don't usually train for multi-round sport matches.

[lkfmdc]

bell rings.. DING... ouch, what the f@#$% was that? OUCH! ****, my leg sure hurts, MOMMY, (light go out) ....

yeah, sure, things would be so much different if the secret weasal death touch were permitted....

dude, learn to block some basic punches....

[brothernumber9]

during the late eighties and early nineties many of the san-shou, sanda, kuoshu, etc, at events like Sifu Tat Mau Wong's four star tourneys, NACMAF, Fu Jow Pai, Kuoshu, WKF, some NSKA events, Capitol Classics, Tiger Balm, WKO events and even some of the Bando champions were from kung fu schools. I'm sure fighters like Aaron Honeycutt, Dana Rutger, Mike Sutton, Rodolpho Monteroso, Shane Lacey, Daniel Tomazaki, Shelton Lee, Felix Mitchel, Jow Ga fighters from the D.C., MD, VA areas, Jeff Lee, John Wai, Linh Thai, and more are examples of fighters that translate thier Kung Fu training well into the ring. Wether or not one sees that fighting as a prominant display of the techniques they learn in form and application is subjective. And I also agree with Truewrestler that Coung Le is one of the best in the world at least with gloves on. I wouldn't have agreed with that seven or eight years ago, but in the last few years in fights that I saw of his he really was impressive. But I haven't been in a fight since highschool so maybe my comments don't carry much merit.

[MasterKiller]

yeah, sure, things would be so much different if the secret weasal death touch were permitted.... There you go again.

Please be so kind as to show me where I said anything remotely close to this.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

What weight gloves were they wearing? Heavy gloves prevent grabbing and joint locking.


1. Neck Surrounding:
By using the separate hands - both arms get inside of his arms and left hand surrounds his right arm and right arm surround his neck.
2. Arm lifting:
When he throws a left punch, use a outside-in block and circled under his left arm and lift his left arm (you don't need to grab his right arm).
3. Arm Circling:
When he punches to your right low ribs, circle his left arm pit from up-down and using stealing step to spin.
4. Embracing:
Use upper block to block his punch, both arms hold on his waist to pick him up.
5. Switching hand:
You throw a right back fist, he uses inside-out block, your left arm follow his right block and wrap around his right arm. Your right arm can
surround his neck, drop your fore arm on his throat, straight punch to his face, or hook punch to his head.

With gloves, the following techniques are hard to do:

1. Tearing
2. Side door control
3. Diagonal pulling
4. Cracking


Originally posted by Master John Wang

[Shaolin-Do]

As for CMA being "too deadly"...
I know several chin na techniques, when applied full speed, are very very hard not to actually cause damage, IE: dislocations, breaks. Very few of the techniques could cause accidental death, unless you "accidentaly dropped your full weight on his temply too hard. oops."
From the above - Some chin na is very not good for sport fighting. Some of it is extremely difficult to practice full speed without hurting your opponent, or training partner. Wouldnt necessarily say "its too deadly" however, but it is dangerous. The term "deadly" is getting thrown around too easily.

As for kung fu looking like kick boxing... Kung fu was the first "organized" system of fighting... From this one could gather that all other styles then, "look like kung fu"? Everything used when one "reverts to kick boxing" is still kung fu techniques. The power applied may be different, but the technique is still generally the same.
Besides, isnt it said that one fears the man who has practiced 1 technique 1000 times, not who has practiced 1000 techniques one time?
Pay attention to lower level belts next time you are watching sparring. What you are calling "reverting to kickboxing" Is nothing more than reverting to the most basic of techniques. Several people I have seen "revert to kickboxing" still use kung fu power generation. Just start using nothing but the most very basic techniques.

[Shaolin-Do]

lkfmdc

What style do you study? Hate to say, but I pound almost all the grapplers I know when we are on the feet... On the ground its about 50-50. Regardless that I have experience on the ground, Overall if Im 75% to their 25% standing, and then 50-50 on the ground, who is the better fighter?

You are making ignorant generalizations. I practice bag work, ground work, along with all the general kung fu training, iron palm, ect. My entire training regimen is fight oriented, and I spar with people from other styles full contact quite often. I dont try to apply dim mak. I dont try to apply flowery chin na techniques. I simply use what I know and try new techniques every now and then until Ive got them down.
How about you?

[truewrestler]

lkfmdc = David Ross:

http://www.nykkgym.com/instructors.html
http://www.nykkgym.com/kungfu.html

[MasterKiller]

Sifu David A Ross is an internationally recognized instructor and one of three senior disciples of Grandmaster Chan Tai-San. Prior to meeting and becoming a student of Master Chan, Sifu Ross had also studied Hung Ga Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Jujitsu.


Originally posted by lkfmdc
The reality is quite simple, so called "traditional kung fu" people can't fight. They feel impotent, woefully incapable and worthless, thus they have to try and find excuses and cover their rear ends. Thus, when they look at REAL fighting, ie San Shou, they have to find ways to explain why they don't last 30 seconds....

[kungfu cowboy]

There is a secret pact amongst all kung fu practioners to conceal their true unstoppable and undefeatable prowess through inept fumbings in the ring or elsewhere. Do not be fooled...it is a clever ruse meant to snare sleeping human torsos into unchallenged submission.

[truewrestler]

MasterKiller, please explain your post... thanks

[MasterKiller]

Apparently, he is proud of his traditional kung fu background, and he is apparently equally disdainful of people with traditional kung fu backgrounds.

I wonder if he informs all his modern Lama Pai students that they are not learning how to fight correctly?

[Shaolin-Do]

MK's got a point...
Kettle? this is pot. Youre black.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, like other preciously rare but true teachers, knew that there was only one way to teach good kung fu.

BY FIGHTING.

How do you fight on a regular basis?

by using protective gear and technique modifications so that you may still fight a full y resisting opponent in a full contact situation..

[lkfmdc]

at this time, the committee on rational thought and truth has made it's decision

and the winner is........


SHAOLIN TIGER 00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and the crowd goes wild.....

[Marky]

Well, it sounds like the discussion on this thread has degraded to kickboxing.


ZING!!!!!

[MasterKiller]

According to his website, Grandmaster Chan Tai-San did not make those technique modifications, lkfmdc did so he could open his school "to the public." So how did he learn traditional kung fu if Chan Tai-San didn't teach lkfmdc modified techniques and modern equipment?


Perhaps the most unique aspect of traditional training was the way applications were taught. It was assumed that you could determine the applications on your own and they were seldom demonstrated unless they were considered advanced techniques. In keeping with tradition, if a student asked Chan Tai-San what a particular application was he would demonstrate it on them and demonstrate that it would indeed work. Students were routinely punched, kicked, swept and thrown around the association hall.Grandmaster Chan Tai-San's techniques were demonstarted to work.

A number of students remained with Chan Tai-San and made progress but his teaching methods were obviously unsuitable for teaching the general public. Those who did achieve something did so because they already had experience in other styles and had superior dedication. For this reason, three of Chan Tai-San's students began the long progress of reorganizing and modernizing the Lama Pai system. His training methods were too difficult for the general public.


The task of reorganizing and modernizing the Lama Pai system and creating a suitable program for teaching the general public would probably have been impossible for a single individual. Fortunately, Chan Tai-San had three students who interpreted the system similarly and shared a common vision for the future. These three students were Stephen Innocenzi, Steve Ventura and David A. Ross.The techniques and training methods were modified to teach the general public.

[ShaolinTiger00]

and the winner is........

Thank you, thank you all. Thank you sifu Ross.

I'd like to give a shout out to the guys that made this moment possible..

First off my dad who gave me a pair of boxing gloves at age 5 and beat me up for the next 10 years.

Second my high school wrestling coach who showed me that califlower ear is both ugly and painful and how important headgear really is..

To sifu Mike Barry who showed me how to fight, get back up, fight some more, and come back tomorrow because i needed more conditioning..

To Gary, Dan, Julio, Scott, Aaron, & a boatload of other guys that used to pound the snot out of me..

and finally to my homies at NIH who remind me to be a savage on the tatami, and a gentleman off it.


*blows kisses to the crowd* thank you! thank you!

*adjusts tiara*

[fa_jing]

I suppose there's a big difference between the MENTALITY of training for self-defense or self-offense as opposed to sportfighting. However, I think many if not most CMA styles are robust enough to be used for either of these purposes with only minor adjustments. Personally I always trained my Wing Chun (and some other stuff) for sport-fighting, that's what I chose to focus on. The problem with training for self-defense or self-offense is that it enables some people to use these "I don't want to really fight you" excuses not to test and build their skills through hard sparring. Back in the day, supposedly Wing Chun was used for stealth assassinations, using the 8-chop butterfly swords. If people who trained for self-defense REALLY had their lives on the line, I think they'd train as hard as the sport fighting guys. They'd also free-spar and do whatever else was necessary to increase their chances. If you had to train to defend your life and your loved ones, you'd be willing to put up with any number of bumps and bruises, as long as they didn't cause long term damage. Anyway, most TMA people who claim to train for self-defense, really are hobbyists that train for nothing. Nothing applicable, anyway. However I've seen a couple very serious kwoons and I think their training would give them at least a decent shot in a streetfight, even if it didn't involve hard sparring. Obviously any practicioner who practices hard sparring will do better in any scenario than a practioner who does not.

[norther practitioner]

Personally I always trained my Wing Chun (and some other stuff) for sport-fighting, that's what I chose to focus on.

Thank you, thats what I've been looking for someone to say.. I train this in respect to that....



Obviously any practicioner who practices hard sparring will do better in any scenario than a practioner who does not.

Wow, what a concept that has been beat to death, but thanks again fa_jing, I agree...


. Anyway, most TMA people who claim to train for self-defense, really are hobbyists that train for nothing. Nothing applicable, anyway.

Making the jump is hard for most martial artists.. and I'd have to say I'm still on the fence in many respects, but at least I realize it.

[lkfmdc]

some people (Shaolin Tiger) get it, some people (master killer) never will.... but it's f-in sad how Chinese martial art has become the home of pansies who are afraid to fight...

Master Killer, if you doubt I have any kung fu you're welcome to test the proposition out ANY TIME under ANY FORMAT....

[Shaolin-Do]

What was the point of this thread again??
:confused:


I think :o best fits what is going on here...

[David Jamieson]

The reality is quite simple, so called "traditional kung fu" people can't fight. They feel impotent, woefully incapable and worthless, thus they have to try and find excuses and cover their rear ends. Thus, when they look at REAL fighting, ie San Shou, they have to find ways to explain why they don't last 30 seconds....

Do you honestly think that is the reality? Maybe your reality,but not a whole lot of other peoples.
Besides, isn't your teacher Chan a traditional Kungfu guy in that respect?

There are plenty of traditional guys who can fight but simply haven't entered into competitive venues. The are also some traditionalists who do enter these venues.

To make such a blanket statement about all kungfu players who consider themselves traditional in their approach to Kungfu is egrigious on a good day.

cheers

[lkfmdc]

yes, there is a whole army of traditional guys just like Master Killer hiding in the shadows, to keep their deadly martial arts skills hidden from all those "low fighting arts" that actually, cough, cough, DO fight....

(insert large amount of sarcasm and/or run laughing your arse off into the woods)

this board is by far representative of todays "kung fu", believing that sport is "low" and that "real kung fu" is too "deadly" to do, guys who propose to punch the sternum to escape the mount, who want to use "sword fingers" to "inflict internal damage to numerous organs" etc etc blah blah

sitting in your school talking about fighting is like reading Maxim and thinking that makes you a master lover....

[shaolin kungfu]

sitting in your school talking about fighting is like reading Maxim and thinking that makes you a master lover....

You mean it doesnt? Maybe that's why I have no wimmins.:(

[Ryu]

"this board is by far representative of todays "kung fu", believing that sport is "low" and that "real kung fu" is too "deadly" to do, guys who propose to punch the sternum to escape the mount, who want to use "sword fingers" to "inflict internal damage to numerous organs" etc etc blah blah"

Don't forget supporting immoral MA films, stereotypes, smoking pot, pseudo taoists/buddhists, and giving "wu de" a real kick in the rear. :D


:cool:

Hehe :D

(shut up people, I'm only kidding...)

Ryu

[rogue]

sitting in your school talking about fighting is like reading Maxim and thinking that makes you a master lover.... D'amn, a double blow to my self image.:(

[David Jamieson]

this board is by far representative of todays "kung fu", believing that sport is "low" and that "real kung fu" is too "deadly" to do,

I think that this is said by a lot of people who point at it, but these things aren't actually said by anyone with any length of study experience in martial arts training , traditional or otherwise.

Martial arts has all sorts of people in it's arms. From the hardcore competitive fighter to the esoteric. It's a wide and deep sea of thought and practice and it is represented as such by it's wide and deep variety of practitioners.

Is some of it realistically impractical by the standards of a reality fight? Absolutely. Does stuff used in the confines of the ring work on the street? Yes, lot's of it works anywhere really.

What there is, is a lot of people saying they have "the" way. It's all what it is, good and bad, and with experience most will get past the bad in time.

cheers

[MasterKiller]

I'm sure if I came to your school, your Lama™ kung fu would impress me, and all the trophies your Lama™ students have won, I'm sure, bring a swell of pride to Lama™ kung fu. Seeing as how you trained in Lama Pai, in a traditional setting with a traditional teacher who believed in hard contact (go figure), I would probably be most impressed with your modern adaptations to that traditional system so that you could spread Lama™ kung fu to the masses. Your students probably thank you every day for not making them endure the bad traditional training you had to put up with, and with the modernization Lama Pai has undergone, more people whom your teacher would not have trained are able to learn this great modern Lama™ art from you. Your worst students would most certainly defeat me because you have taken a traditional system that was too hard for most to master, and you have made it so that everyone can master Lama™ Kung Fu. I applaud you, lkfmdc. You are a true kung fu hero and a wonderful human being.

[Water Dragon]

LOL

[truewrestler]

You are not very funny Master Killer. You should really work on that so your posts have some value to them.

I'm quite certain that Cung Le's low-level Kung Fu wouldn't be able to deal with your high-level Kung Fu. I mean isn't he only like 30 years old.... he has barely started Kung Fu and could not possibly have mastered anything yet. He has at least 30 more years to go before he learns a punch right?

[Shaolin-Do]

/**** on this thread

Theres nothing I can really say that I havent already.... I practice both standing and on the ground, do not think Dim Mak is something to rely on... ect... ect....
blah...
:o

[Chinwoo-er]

~sitting on the sideline, eating popcorn~



Anyone want to make a wave ??

:D :D :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

but these things aren't actually said by anyone with any length of study experience in martial arts training , traditional or otherwise.

-Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

[lkfmdc]

I can just see it now, Master Killer's lips moving but the words coming out a few seconds later, out of sync...

Dude, you are not funny, not in the way you INTEND, you are only funny in how out of touch with reality you are...

MY students win in San Shou, San Da, western boxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling, and MMA, ie we can FIGHT, we don't just sit around talking about how deadly we are. And we actually get RESPECT rather than being the pathetic laughing stock guys like you are...

I guess you must have studied some boxing, because you clearly tried to DUCK an actual test of your skills

HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!

[MasterKiller]

MY students win in San Shou, San Da, western boxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling, and MMA, ie we can FIGHT, we don't just sit around talking about how deadly we are. And we actually get RESPECT rather than being the pathetic laughing stock guys like you are... What about your modern Lama™ students? Can they fight?


yes, there is a whole army of traditional guys just like Master Killer hiding in the shadows, to keep their deadly martial arts skills hidden....
from http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/9358/chapt7.html


However, the school remained rather small for a number of reasons. First, Chan Tai-San only spoke Cantonese dialect and had trouble communicating with his American students. Second, he was no longer a young man and disliked having to demonstrate the more difficult techniques. Often, if a student could not perform a technique correctly or did not know what a technique was, it was simply removed from their form. Third and most importantly, the training was unlike anything students of commercial kung-fu schools had ever seen.

Sounds like you used to be one of those guys hiding in the shadows, eh?


The reality is quite simple, so called "traditional kung fu" people can't fight. They feel impotent, woefully incapable and worthless, thus they have to try and find excuses and cover their rear ends. Thus, when they look at REAL fighting, ie San Shou, they have to find ways to explain why they don't last 30 seconds....

From this article, by lkfmdc: http://chinwan.com.ar/ross1.htm

"The best example of the martial artist's refusal to assimilate and conform with society's standards is the open challenge. Even though a would-be instructor was seeking to legitimize himself and gain general acceptance, he simultaneously desired to maintain the respect of his peers. The quickest and by far the most popular method of doing this was to issue an open challenge and defeat several local fighters before opening one's school. Until it was declared illegal by the Nationalist government in 1928, it was relatively common in southern China to see an instructor fight all challengers in public duels with no rules and no restrictions. These duels often resulted in serious injury or even death but they were viewed necessary to demonstrate that an instructor was worthy of opening a school.

Another popular method of making a name for oneself was to challenge an already established instructor in hopes of defeating him and taking over his school. It was an extremely risky decision and some of the largest and most popular schools were the ones where such challengers were frequently beaten senseless and left on the front stairs for everyone to see. Indeed, an instructor who routinely beat such challengers was sought out by all segments of society, the brotherhoods and secret societies, the military, local commoners and rich elite who viewed martial arts as an esoteric hobby (not unlike today's "new age" crowd). "

YOU MEAN PEOPLE ACTUALLY GOT HURT AND KILLED USING KUNG FU?:eek:

From that same article:
"During the recent interviews mentioned above, some instructors expressed a desire to essentially return to the days of open challenges, calling for the removal of protective gear and restrictions on dangerous techniques such as elbows and knees. Thus, contemporary Wushu is in some respects returning to its traditional roots."

You mean elbows and knees are dangerous? And protective gear actually protects fighters? :eek:

These are my favorite San Shou pictures: http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-1.htm


I guess you must have studied some boxing, because you clearly tried to DUCK an actual test of your skillsI am just a student, and unworthy to test myself against a master such as yourself. I wish you the best of luck in spreading Lama™ kung fu to the masses.

[Shaolin-Do]

I cant even use one of my favorite moves in a tourney...
:(
(Trap kicks to knees) :)
Very simple... very not allowed for obvious reasons. Easy to execute, even in a fighting situation. Blah...
Im not even in this arguement... just think its funny that someone is so obtuse as to make a blanket statement about all kung fu practitioners being incapable blah blah blah....

[Ford Prefect]

Enough barking, little doggy. You gonna bite?

[Shaolin-Do]

Im going to outfit my dog with steel teeth.
:D

[Ford Prefect]

Mine has lasers that shoot out its eyes.

[Suntzu]

this i s like LL vs Can-I-bus...

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I cant even use one of my favorite moves in a tourney...
:(
(Trap kicks to knees) :)
Very simple... very not allowed for obvious reasons. Easy to execute, even in a fighting situation. Blah...
Im not even in this arguement... just think its funny that someone is so obtuse as to make a blanket statement about all kung fu practitioners being incapable blah blah blah.... Just a few questions: Please explain the "Trap kicks to knees". How many times have you pulled this off in sparring? If it is so "easy to execute" then what makes you think someone won't do it to you? thanks!

[lkfmdc]

what is astounding about "master killer" is that he can cut and paste and use HTML and yet is to stupid to even understand the meaning of what he is cutting and pasting..... another failure of the public education system

We can FIGHT because we FIGHT, we don't whine about how our secret weasal death touch is illegal and thus it's not a "real fight".

Clearly, master killer, you have no testicles at all. I'm sure if you had ever met Chan Tai-San in person you would have craped your pants. For those that don't know, Chan Tai San KILLED people, lots of them, over the years of his life. Yet he didn't wine about how with gloves on he couldn't do the secret weasal claw or the chicken destroying chi blast

If you want to call yourself a fighter, FIGHT, otherwise what you are calling "kung fu" is nothing but masturbation

[MasterKiller]

Clearly, master killer, you have no testicles at all. I'm sure if you had ever met Chan Tai-San in person you would have craped your pants. For those that don't know, Chan Tai San KILLED people, lots of them, over the years of his life. Yet he didn't wine about how with gloves on he couldn't do the secret weasal claw or the chicken destroying chi blast So, you are saying that a traditional kung fu fighter killed people? How...could....that....be? No San Shou, which, according to you, is REAL kung fu fighting?


We can FIGHT because we FIGHT, we don't whine about how our secret weasal death touch is illegal and thus it's not a "real fight".Show me one time where I ever made a claim like this. Go ahead. I'm waiting....All I said was the elimination of elbows and knees, and the addition of heavy gloves, greatly reduces a kung fu fighters arsenal of available techniques.

BTW, I'd like to commend you on keeping your tone civil. I'm sure Master Chan Tai-San would be honored at your constant displays of martial virtue.

[Shaolin-Do]

"If it is so "easy to execute" then what makes you think someone won't do it to you? thanks!"
Never said someone wont do it to me, and I hope to god they dont.

"why dont you do it in sparring?"
Yes... Maiming my opponents leg is my main focus in sparring. I want to kick their knee the wrong way. If you think its a hard move to pull off, then your standing game is apparently CRAP.

[lkfmdc]

you are so dense it is astounding. or perhaps the word is PATHETIC

people like you whine about "sport" not being a "real fight" and how all your "deadly" techniques can't be used. Yet the reality is that you are a wanna-be and couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag.

what you should note, but consistently fail to see, is that the real fighters all embraced what you call "sport"

Chan Tai San was three time national military sparring champion, ie SAN SHOU you dense moron... He was also Guangdong province champion twice, with RULES exactly like the UFC, no biting and no gouging, oh and NO GROIN KICKING

Funny how the REAL fighters just FOUGHT and didn't whine and ***** like the people here.

Fairies like you always run back to "martial virtue", I have some stunning news for you, back in the day in China MOST people doing martial arts were NOT monks and scholars, they were army people, body guards and CRIMINALS...

The "new age" trend in kung fu is exactly what has made kung fu a joke.....

[Water Dragon]

The Correct in this thread is much too deadly for the ring.

[truewrestler]

Shaolin-Do, can you please explain this technique. Is it a side kick to the knee or what? If it is a straight kick to the knee joint it is legal in San Shou (from what I've heard) but not in most kickboxing in the world or most MMA events in North American.

[lkfmdc]

a couple of master killer's "words of wisdom"

- "Kung fu doesn't translate into the ring"

Translation, since I can't fight, I will look for excuses for my pathetic performance

- "I suppose that match was governed under sport fighting rules? Kung Fu is not a sport"

Once again, dude, if you can't block a cross and a leg kick, all your deadly moves are gonna mean SQUAT

- "What weight gloves were they wearing"

Yeah, you can't last more than a minute in a match WITH gloves and you think without them you are gonna be a killer, LMFAO

- "Kung Fu cannot be used to effectively sport box someone"

Translation: because I beleive in Chi and dim mak, I don't really know how to punch hard and effectively...

- "What I'm saying is that Kung Fu was developed to take people out quickly on the battlefield"

So, you are practicing in full armor woth swords in preparation for your next battlefield encounter? LMFAO. I don't ever remember in my history texts any battle where the Kung Fu army beat the Judo army...

[Shaolin-Do]

Basically a very low front kick.. But if you were looking down at your right foot, the toes will be to the right and the ball of the foot to the left.
Comes up real quick... The curve of your foot gives a nice place for the knee to fit as well. :)

[truewrestler]

Well... that is legal in San Shou

[MasterKiller]

Again, you put words in my mouth that I did not say. If that's the only way you can defend your obvious hypocrisy, then more power to you.
a couple of master killer's "words of wisdom"


- "Kung fu doesn't translate into the ring"

Translation, since I can't fight, I will look for excuses for my pathetic performance

I am not a pro-fighter (and neither are you), but I'm 2 and 1 in street fights since I was 18, and that's an above average record. What's your street fighting record, oh Lama™ master? And were you wearing gloves at the time?


- "I suppose that match was governed under sport fighting rules? Kung Fu is not a sport"

Once again, dude, if you can't block a cross and a leg kick, all your deadly moves are gonna mean SQUAT
I agree.



- "What weight gloves were they wearing"

Yeah, you can't last more than a minute in a match WITH gloves and you think without them you are gonna be a killer, LMFAOHow many people did your master kill while he was wearing boxing gloves?


- "Kung Fu cannot be used to effectively sport box someone"

Translation: because I beleive in Chi and dim mak, I don't really know how to punch hard and effectively...I don't believe in chi and dim mak. I do practice punching hard and effectively on a heavy bag and against resisting opponents. Sure, I'm not taking the modern Lama™ method of training, but I'm doing what I can in the amount of time I have to train. I'm sure you Lama™ students have a much better way of learning to punch.


- "What I'm saying is that Kung Fu was developed to take people out quickly on the battlefield"

So, you are practicing in full armor woth swords in preparation for your next battlefield encounter? LMFAO. I don't ever remember in my history texts any battle where the Kung Fu army beat the Judo army... When your beloved master killed people, did he do it after a 10 round fight? Or was it quick and to the point? Did he wear armor?

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont fight san shou.
I Fight with my friends from all kinds of different styles, and Im not going to argue the legitemacy of my ability on a forum.

"people like you whine about "sport" not being a "real fight" and how all your "deadly" techniques can't be used. Yet the reality is that you are a wanna-be and couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag."

Its very intelligent to remark on others abilities when you have never met nor fought any of them...
I have said before already that I fight regularly, just not in tourneys. I have no need to legitemize myself, I already know I can fight.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
you are so dense it is astounding. or perhaps the word is PATHETIC

people like you whine about "sport" not being a "real fight" and how all your "deadly" techniques can't be used. Yet the reality is that you are a wanna-be and couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag.

what you should note, but consistently fail to see, is that the real fighters all embraced what you call "sport"

Chan Tai San was three time national military sparring champion, ie SAN SHOU you dense moron... He was also Guangdong province champion twice, with RULES exactly like the UFC, no biting and no gouging, oh and NO GROIN KICKING

Funny how the REAL fighters just FOUGHT and didn't whine and ***** like the people here.

Fairies like you always run back to "martial virtue", I have some stunning news for you, back in the day in China MOST people doing martial arts were NOT monks and scholars, they were army people, body guards and CRIMINALS...

The "new age" trend in kung fu is exactly what has made kung fu a joke.....

Easy ikfmdc. I have a lot of respect for full contact fighters and their abilities. Although the sport arena may be somewhat limiting in some techniques, it's probalby not limiting enough to make a difference "on the street." Your conditioning and ring skills make you an elite fighter that could more than likely take people who train like myself. I feel that I can handle myself in 95% of the situations out there, but you may be in the 5%.

Having said that, there's no need to go off on MK like you are doing. Whether you disagree with him or not, your demeaning attitude is uncalled for. Show a little humility and respect. What your attitude tells me is that you are not confident to let your opinions stand on their own and you are forced to resort to personal attacks rather than reasoned ones.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Basically a very low front kick.. But if you were looking down at your right foot, the toes will be to the right and the ball of the foot to the left.
Comes up real quick... The curve of your foot gives a nice place for the knee to fit as well. :)

I would also describe a trap also as a stomping side kick to the knee joint. Equally as effecve to the front, back, or either side of the knee. Is that allowed in San Shou?

[truewrestler]

I would describe a trap also as a stomping side kick to the knee joint. Equally as effecve to the front, back, or either side of the knee. Is that allowed in San Shou? I have been told on many occassions that this is LEGAL in San Shou. It was brought up specifically because Muay Thai and most other kickboxing rules do not allow it.

[MasterKiller]

lkfmdc is a hypocrite. He claims to be a master of Lama™ style kung fu, yet repeatedly bashes other people for studying TMA. He is the worst kind of practicioner and teacher because he is in denial of his own training and background, yet he still continues to teach people this system even though he claims TMA are worthless.

I feel sorry for his students because he is teaching them something he doesn't believe in.

[truewrestler]

MK, it sounds to me more like he is trying to lead the push to find honesty in martial arts where as you are just a blind follower.

[MasterKiller]

His teacher and his training techniques were as real as they come. Yet, he found it necessary to "modernize" the system to attract more students. How "honest" is that?

[truewrestler]

What makes you think he has changed the system any more than his master changed the system?

[Archangel]

There are still a few points that I'd wish you'd respond to.

1) elbows and knees to the face are allowed in all MMA venues to my knowledge, why is this a point of contention?

2) Other Martial Arts like Pankration and Jui Jitsu all originated with the intent to kill and maim, yet they are not limited and can be expressed in the ring

3) fighting with full contact and knockout rules are based on:

a) controlling the range of the fight
b) striking hard
c) striking with acuracy
d) measuring distance
e) measuring timing
f) toughening your body
g) handling an adrenaline dump

These skills are extremely important to any fighter and I'd say to any martial artist. Why would a "fighter" not want to hone his skills and attributes here.

[MasterKiller]

Archangel,
I do not disagree with anything you said.

What I am disagreeing with his lkfmdc's contention that TMA are worthless and his chest-thumping at his student beating a TMA under San Shou rules as proof of his contention.

TW,
"A number of students remained with Chan Tai-San and made progress but his teaching methods were obviously unsuitable for teaching the general public. Those who did achieve something did so because they already had experience in other styles and had superior dedication. For this reason, three of Chan Tai-San's students began the long progress of reorganizing and modernizing the Lama Pai system.

The task of reorganizing and modernizing the Lama Pai system and creating a suitable program for teaching the general public would probably have been impossible for a single individual. Fortunately, Chan Tai-San had three students who interpreted the system similarly and shared a common vision for the future. These three students were Stephen Innocenzi, Steve Ventura and David A. Ross."

"In 1992, Stephen Innocenzi, Steve Ventura and David A. Ross began to refer to their own unique approach as simply "Lama Kung-Fu". They believe their method is unique because it is complete, practical, and organized in a scientific way. Today, "Lama Kung-Fu" is a registered trademark. This was done to differentiate it from other lineages and other training methods and programs."


It's a whole new system, complete with a ™.

[Ford Prefect]

And maybe he teaches the full system to promising students. Have you asked?

[Archangel]

MK

Ok let me get this straight and correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth. So you are now saying that there is absolutely no reason that a traditional kung fu practioner cannot succeed in MMA under it's rules.

[MasterKiller]

Ok let me get this straight and correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth. So you are now saying that there is absolutely no reason that a traditional kung fu practioner cannot succeed in MMA under it's rules. If the rules included joint shots and elbows, I think a TMA who trained properly for the ring could stand a chance. Just as lkfmdc pointed out, his master did win a lot of events that had limited rules.

But at the same time, once you start adding rules, and protective equipment, you severly limit the available techniques a TMA can use. Kung Fu was developed to maim people, not submit them.

Am I saying I could win a MMA event? Hell no. My skills are not to that level, and I never made a claim otherwise. I have a lot of respect for guys who get in the ring and fight. Most of them are superior athletes to me in all aspects.

Does that mean my kung fu training is worthless? If you judge your skills by how many trophies you bring home, then yes. If you judge your skills by how effectively you can apply them in a real situation with no rules, then I am 2 and 1 ( as I already pointed out) and still alive, then no.

FP,
I wouldn't ask that arrogant @ss anything, let alone questions concerning training.

I'm merely responding to his hateful, degrading posts with actual information instead of fabrications, which seems to be his most usual method.

[Shaolin-Do]

I agree that lkfmdc is being a little... err... obtusively agressive in his approach to "legitimizing" kung fu. Attacking the abilities of people you have never met, is not how to go about doing it. Kung fu can be used in the ring. Of course. We have said before and Ill say it again however, the training is usually a different focus. Yes, for the most part MMA train harder, due to the fact that it is sport oriented, has frequent tournaments, and if you are not in tip top condition then you wont succeed. Many kung fu schools do not attend tournaments. Many could care less. There are also many who do. You are trying to measure something that is immeasureable. You cannot gauge the ability of kung fu practitioners in general from the couple of people you may have seen do poorly. And as a sifu, I would expect a much more mature and insightful attitude...

[fa_jing]

I thought that deliberately attacking the joints such as the knee was prohibited in San Shou, at least in this country.

There is nothing that "prevents" a fighter who focusses on self-defense from fighting sport, and there is nothing that "prevents" a sport-fighter from fighting effectively in the streets. Don't walk in there blind in either case, just take some time to prepare and you will find 85-90% carryover from one to another.

JMO

[truewrestler]

I thought that deliberately attacking the joints such as the knee was prohibited in San Shou, at least in this country. You may be right. If someone could confirm this one way or the other I would appreciate it.

[Shaolin-Do]

I hate fish.
And I hate you too.






:D



As for fighting allowing joint strikes... Go ahead. Train "realistic". Ill just keep on being able to walk and run my whole life. I already got bad knees. Uh oh... Im in the "arm chair master" category now... (just trying to save you trolls time)... regardless that I still train regularly and fight... just dont have to have a big shiny trophy to prove to myself my ability. I will sooner or later enter a tourney, planned on doing san shou at Taiji. Have other plans however, and didnt get in the training I would have needed due to injury, My training has only recently been back up to where it needs to be.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.sanshou.com/article-rules.html

Personal Fouls:
1.Attacking the opponent before the judge gives the start signal, or after he gives the stop signal;
2.Using prohibited techniques, including:
A.Stikes to the back of the head, neck, throat, or crotch;
B.Elbow or knee strikes;
C.Striking opponent’s head continuously to deliberately injure opponent;
D.Use of excessive force to cause opponents to fall head over heels off the platform;
E.Attacking a fallen opponent (except when an opponent falls deliberately as combat technique).

[Water Dragon]

WoW! Both Chi blasts and the Dim Mak are legal!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
http://www.sanshou.com/article-rules.html

Personal Fouls:

C.Striking opponent’s head continuously to deliberately injure opponent;



Huh? I thought this was the point. I try to hit them continously in the head to knock them out (deliberately causing injury) and they try to stop me by doing the same.

[MasterKiller]

JP,
I'm sure they mean when the guy can no longer protect himself, just like in boxing.

[lkfmdc]

"2 and 1 in street fights" oh my lord, do you have writers for this sort of material, that is **** funny, except that you are being serious so that makes it PATHETIC

As for the "san shou experts", funny how you spout off about crap that you know nothing about.

Direct SIDE KICKS, CROSS KICKS, FRONT KICKS etc are all LEGAL, so what's your excuse now?

There is direct, continuous, HARD punching to the head. Step onto the lei tai some time and FIND OUT instead of being a keyboard Nancy... Just because some idiot put it on the internet doesn't make it true....

In San DA you can knee, in the "China vs the world" series you can ELBOW. THey are offering $50,000 US to anyone who can beat China's champion under these rules, uh SPORT rules... Master Killer, go out and get your $50,000 dude

Master, if you think I can only fight "sport" all you have to do is try me out. I'll happy fight you under ANY FORMAT.

[lkfmdc]

- "he is trying to lead the push to find honesty in martial arts where as you are just a blind follower."

and the winner of the second annual rational thought and truth award is.......

[No_Know]

"Well... kickboxing and other sport or modern martial arts are basically "low-level." This means they're very basic and there's no skill involved;"

Three techniques done at varying levels with varying results and adding factors to be varied such as angle, weight distribution. posture, foot placement. And the permutations, the simple gets complex.

The complexity requires implementing more/different strategy. Application of strategy appropriately might be associated as a skill.

Having few techniques perhaps should not be considered low level. Calling others low does not necessarily elevate one's own.

Kung-Fu has more techniques. Therefore more application of strategy. And perhaps more complticated strategy. Therefore more difficult to be appropriate.

While there might be sports. They do not necessarily deserve to be belittled nor their fans nor participants. Whether Kung-Fu or some other thing-to-do. We all have directions in which we are headed and they satisfy or don't to some degree. And like what one does or thinking it's important or Right Or Correct Matters. The actual seems insignificant.

As any of us might be wrong, in some way, perhaps we are all correct even on the same topic, as we might be commenting on different (though very slightly perhaps) aspects of the same or similar things.

The other poeple do not necessarily have to be Wrong for your point to be Right.

" like two kids fighting."

This addresses the first post of this thread. While not per se reverting the kick boxing part might come from conditioning via propaganda and media exposure. This is what we are conditioned to see as the way-it-is.

We mimic the status quo. Learning is most influenced young. What you perceived as how to fight in the earlier of days, might not get unconditioned.

Kickboxing is a sport. Kickboxing is Also a category.

With this, be aware why people might not be on the same page even using the same words.

There are types of kickboxing that are Not the Sport Kickboxing.

Muay Thay uses punches hence boxing. Muay Thai uses kicks. With this, Muay Thai by at least some might be called (a) Kickboxing. San shou, same...others perhapsexcept without a specific accepted buzzword category, might be called (a) Kickboxing with throws/ ground/take-downs...groundfighting combined with kick-boxing...

[lkfmdc]

oh, one last thought

Master Killer's argument has caught the San Francisco, ie he's trying to have it both ways......

[ShaolinTiger00]

*regretfully hands over tiara and ribbon*

[MasterKiller]

Just because some idiot put it on the internet doesn't make it true.... No shlt? Maybe you should trademark this little gem as well.


In San DA you can knee, in the "China vs the world" series you can ELBOW. THey are offering $50,000 US to anyone who can beat China's champion under these rules, uh SPORT rules... Master Killer, go out and get your $50,000 dude
Why don't you go claim the $50,000, tough guy? You afraid your REAL kung fu won't be up to the challenge. Hell, send one of you Lama™ students if your family won't let you fight. I'm sure your modern Lama™ system would be no match for the traditional Chinese fighters.


Master, if you think I can only fight "sport" all you have to do is try me out. I'll happy fight you under ANY FORMAT.
I'm not the one claiming to be master, then denegrating the art I profess to be a master of. You would probably beat me, then thump your chest with all the bravado of a monkey throwing shlt at little kids. You wanna show me some real skill? How about telling me how you are not a TMA, and do so without resorting to name calling and chicken shlt threats.

[truewrestler]

Why don't you go claim the $50,000, tough guy? You afraid your REAL kung fu won't be up to the challenge. Hell, send one of you Lama™ students if your family won't let you fight. I'm sure your modern Lama™ system would be no match for the traditional Chinese fighters. LOL, that's like telling someone... "if you believe your boxing training is so great why don't you go beat Roy Jones". It is a really dumb comment with no logic behind it.

[MasterKiller]

And yet, it's the same argument he used against me. Makes a lot of sense, huh?:rolleyes:

[truewrestler]

Comparing boxing to boxing training is different than comparing TCMA to boxing training.

Those that are successful in "China versus the world" train much in the same way as lkfmdc.

[MasterKiller]

Did his master train as a boxer, or as TCMA?

[Shaolin-Do]

This thread is "special".
Kinda like the "slow" class I taught.....

"LOL, that's like telling someone... "

lol, thats like telling someone the exact same thing they just told you.
:rolleyes:

[ShifuBinks]

I'm being drawn into a philosophical discussion that I don't wanna be a part of! Who can answer these questions? Somebody with a lot more experience than me...I've competed many times and all that I have learned is that I don't know anything...
I'll take getting punched in the head over the headaches pondering Martial art philosophy causes any day...
As Steve Martin (the martial art master, not the actor) said this weekend: SHUT UP AND FIGHT!

[No_Know]

If the ring is a test of ones skills and
Peoples' focus is the ring, then
Those people live for testing.

My comprehension, the First thing people used to do of Chinese Fighting Style Kung-Fus, is stances.

I can apply that at my assembly line job. Or working at the docks. Or at my construction site job. Or waiting for public transportation...

Ring people seem to also Use Horse-riding stances technology. Sometimes left sometimes right Horse-riding stance as a term called sprawl. They also use the Sumo flavored angle of a horse- riding stance to lean-in and resist/challenge, it seems. Football players (blockers) on the line seem to do the Su-mo thing similarly before the Snap.

Basketball players and dancers move with, in essence, Horse-riding stances. At least use them often times as a Base for moving, movement.

Sometimes they are higher than training in a Chinese Fighting Style Kung-Fu class, yet the essence of it is so versitile that nearly All Chinese Fighting Style Kung-Fus have it. And non-Chinese Fighting Style Kung-Fus use it in areas considered related to fighting. And it is applied in areas not necessarily considered directly related to fighting.

Perhaps there are other techniques that are similarly versitile or recognized as significant. And while not used outside of fighting as is the Horse-ridning stance, it might be found in more than one not only Chinese Fight related thingie.

Whether you claim the Ring or the Streets or the Classroom do your claims even matter in The World where you are merely one of many. Vulnerable to many. If it doesn't seem to matter as much. Perhaps you shouldn't cling to it as hard.

Have an icecream...take a breath (your own :-) )... Be appreciative of whatever. As bad as it might be, there might be a concept that it might could be worse.

[shaolinboxer]

I would change that to "shut up and train" :). I have taken lessons from lkfmdc and some of the other teaching staff a NY Kung Fu and Kick Boxing. It's a good school with well rounded fighters. Not really my cup of tea anymore, but I trained there briefly and with a few years hard experience already earned, these guys gave a me a real run.

That being said, I do agree to some extent that learning effective ring dualing methods is essential for building martially applicable skills in the modern environment. However, it is very dangerous and so there is naturally a trade of for engaging in too many fights. We should all be able to gauge how much we need, take it in, then let it go.

[Shaolin-Do]

Nice post No_Know.
Where are you from? Certainly have interesting dialect....

:D

[SanShou Guru]

Just want to get notified when a new post goes up. This thread is hilarious.

[yenhoi]

Master, if you think I can only fight "sport" all you have to do is try me out. I'll happy fight you under ANY FORMAT.

What a snob.

Are you HKV?

Internet randomness.

:eek:

[ShifuBinks]

Shawn Michaels posts on here? What about Marty Janety?

[Ford Prefect]

tehehe

[SanShou Guru]

Ford let me know if you want to come back and train with us again. Also do you ge the email up dates I send out sometimes?

[Jowbacca]

ShifuBinks
Jon, is it me, or did this whole thread start cuz you said your grandmaster would get ticked if he saw you "goin back to kickboxing" versus "doing kung fu"? :D

What's funny is that everyone probably assumed you were some traditional guy worried about reverting to something you'd never done; instead of taking on street fighter poses & fighting with something you hadn't trained realistically enough.

Kinda sad that all this arguing is cuz you were worried about what boils down to little more than throwing a couple "wrong" combinations. If people only knew....

Congrats again on last weekend. Din't wake up this morning. Probly won't be till next week til i get my head together. See yah saturday.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I hate fish.


Just close your eyes and pretend it's pus.sy

[Ford Prefect]

Guru,

That'd be cool. I'd like to know when I could catch some San Shou fights in the area.

[No_Know]

Born in the United States of America I'm told~. Today I'm alive in Maryland. Spent seventeen Summers in Pennsylvania. Mostly lived in Washington, DC.

[Archangel]

MasterKiller,


If the rules included joint shots and elbows, I think a TMA who trained properly for the ring could stand a chance. Just as lkfmdc pointed out, his master did win a lot of events that had limited rules.

And the rules do allow joint shots and elbows. Great this point of contention is done, no more "too deadly" excuses.


But at the same time, once you start adding rules, and protective equipment, you severly limit the available techniques a TMA can use. Kung Fu was developed to maim people, not submit them.

Tell me what do you think would happen id I held a choke a din't let go - simple, the guy would die. What do you think would happen if I crank an arm or knee bar and didn't let go - simple, broken limb. MMA techniques are more than capable of maiming and killing someone.

[MasterKiller]

MMA techniques are more than capable of maiming and killing someone. I agree. I have no doubt MMA fighters can be dangerous and can apply what they use outside the ring. There are several people here I would not want the misfortune of having to defend against, as they have proven themselves time and time again.

The same techniques you just described as deadly for MMA are the same ones I would describe as deadly for a TMA. I make no assumptions about secret strikes or hidden attacks. The fact is, some types of attacks can kill or maim, whether applied by a wrestler or a kung fu player.

Which is why I said that if a TMA trained in the same manner and with the same intensity as a MMA, in an open rules format, he should be able to hold his own.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Which is why I said that if a TMA trained in the same manner and with the same intensity as a MMA, in an open rules format, he should be able to hold his own.

tf? This is what we've been saying the whole time :confused:

[MasterKiller]

I said the same thing 3 pages back. My contention was about wearing boxing gloves in San Shou fights and how that limits what you can do with your hands, and the fact that San Shou doesn't allow elbows strikes. MMA may allow elbows, but I'm pretty sure sanctioned San Shou fights in the US do not.

If you take away a TMA hands by putting heavy gloves on them, and then take away his elbows, he is reduced to using only punches, which limits the aresenal he trained to apply. That's all I was saying.

I'm sure San Shou guys can apply their stuff outside the ring, just like MMA. I'm not questioning their toughness or training.

[Shaolin-Do]

"trained in the same manner and with the same intensity as a MMA,"

I fight with some diff MMA's all the time....
:rolleyes:
Havent gottten mopped yet.

Edit: as of late they have been slacking on wanting to fight... :(

Any San Antonio Kung Fuers down to fight? I just want some friendly challenge stuff. Nothin real serious.
:)
Anyhow...
Im leaving.
Goin to CO.
Peace!
:)

[lkfmdc]

Funny how only "kung fu people" can find a million excuses for not actually putting on the gloves and going at it. Even the Thai's whose art is very centered on the elbow, also fight without elbows. Like you would suddenly be so "deadly" just with elbows. Face it, you train unrealisticly and live in a fantasy land.

Want to prove me wrong? Enter a San Shou or San Da match and see how many rounds you last.....

[No_Know]

If Kung-Fu people do more with the gloves off. But compete in matches that do not allow most of their techniques or is only one person opponent, it might not be interesting-ish.

The Ring seems to be an established place. There might be an urge to use tactics Thought to be used in a ring. And While Kung-Fu has enough (even with gloves-on) still usable techniques probablly to deal with a Ringer, they might find it awkward to combine what they'd like to do with the Ring moves they feel/think they should be using.

[SifuAbel]

Gloves are not a real issue. If you need to have an open hand , then use the fingered "enter the dragon gloves" . Its the best of both worlds.

Ross, please put "some" in front of "kung fu people", you might not intend to blanket those of us who do fight(like me), but you end up doing it anyway.

[Shaolin-Do]

Yeah, its a thorn in our @sses. You're included in your own statements as well.....

Enter the dragon gloves?
Same thing as kempo gloves?

[SifuAbel]

yep

Kempo gloves (http://www.karatedepot.com/scan/se=tr-gl-70/sf=0/sp=enlarge/ml=1.html?id=35BHzwnQ)

[planetwc]

I've seen the very thing being asked at various CMA tournaments.
The point is that the "fighters" being discussed degrade into BAD kickboxing.

I've made that observation myself.

Often I'd see them doing their system's forms before getting onto the mat and sparring. Their forms would look not bad and then as soon as they strapped on the gloves and facemask all the movements which identified them as a Chinese stylist seemed to vanish. What would remain is sloppy spinning backfists, lots of hopping around like Chuck Norris in Way of the Dragon, and very poor kickboxing.

Bleechh! :(

The point being a competant kickboxer would eat their lunch.
A competant Muay Thai guy would break their legs, THEN eat their lunch. :)

What you end up wondering is what happened to the movements, stances, entry techniques and close range fighting of their native style be it Choy Lay Fut, 8 Step Mantis, Northern Shaolin, or Hung Gar? Or even Wing Chun?

Why does it devolve into bad kickboxing? If that is what it is in the ring, then why not just study kickboxing? Seems it would be more efficient that way.

Why aren't the fighters able to transition their system into the "fight"?

[SifuAbel]

1. No one has taught them that the forms are more than just mear demonstrations and that the principles behind the moves are applicable.

2. Mostly what you see in tournaments are beginners and intermediates at best.

3. Doing tournaments, especially point matches, turns your fighting into a glorified game of tag .

4. People sparr and do forms as if they were separate entities.

[Laughing Cow]

I think that there is a big gap between what is needed to fight in a tournament and what is needed to fight for the street.

Even the Gracies, said that they got bassically 2 systems, one for the ring and for the street.

I also think that the average competitor at a tournament is not that skilled, most of them I think only got a few years of study under the belt and now want to see if they can use what they learned.

After they studied some more, most of them will start to teach and many will become judges at those competitions.

Just some random thoughts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


I also think that the average competitor at a tournament is not that skilled, most of them I think only got a few years of study under the belt and now want to see if they can use what they learned.

After they studied some more, most of them will start to teach and many will become judges at those competitions.



The avg. competitor at what type of tournament? I can definitely disagree with that from a grappling standpoint.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar

The avg. competitor at what type of tournament? I can definitely disagree with that from a grappling standpoint.

Most of the smaller amateur competitions and tournaments.

I am naturally NOT talking UFC, Pride, K1 or similar here.

Seeya.

[SevenStar]

Even in the smaller ones, I know judo peeps who have competed for like ten years and never tried to go above national level. they do teach now, but only because they felt they were getting too old to compete.