Shuai Chiao is Chinese

[Water Dragon]

Apparently there is a little confusion going on, so I’d like to take a moment and clear something up for everyone. Shuai Chiao is a Chinese martial art. Yes, I know it can be hard to believe. We don’t develop Chi, we’re not deadly to be in the ring, and we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd, but we are a Chinese martial art. In fact, Shuai Chiao is a TRADITIONAL Chinese martial art.

Shuai Chiao may even be the oldest of the Chinese martial arts. We can trace our art back a good 2000 years. No, we weren’t created by an immortal Taoist monk, just a bunch of crazy Chinese guys that like to throw each other on their head, but we do have the woodcuts and records to back up our claim. We have probably influenced your art to some extent. If you have either Shuai or Na in your art, there’s a good chance it came from some form of Shuai Chiao.

Are you with me so far? Good, because it gets really confusing now. A lot of times you will see other, non-Chinese arts discussed on Shuai Chiao threads. There is a good reason for this and it shouldn’t scare you away. You see, in Shuai Chiao, we have this crazy idea that martial arts are supposed to be for fighting. Because of this, we look at other arts that actually fight (San Shou, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, etc) and try to figure out how to beat them. This actually shouldn’t be tooo much of a shock though, as over half the threads around here are about BJJ ( a non-Chinese martial art)

In conclusion, Shuai Chiao is a Chinese Martial art, a form of Kung Fu and not an Other Related Art. I hope this clears up any confusion for our esteemed posters and moderators.

[dwid]

It's pretty f-ed up that the thread got moved.

It seems a lot more relevant to this board than many of the other threads here.

I mean, look at all the Shaolin Do threads that come up on here.

Arguably, Judo is more Chinese than Shaolin Do.

:D

[bodhitree]

Yeah I agree
Opps, i forgot we're not allowed to post that!:eek:

[ShaolinTiger00]

Arguably, Judo is more Chinese than Shaolin Do.

I agree. I've always felt an internal energy (not in a goofy mystical way, but more in a "core" and off balancing way) with judo than any other combat sport I've studied.

[chen zhen]

So, any thread that even FEATURES the name of a style that is not chinese will be moved and/or deleted?

This board will be empty soon.

[SevenStar]

shuai chiao is a Norse art brought about by Thor.

[Ralphie]

Shui Chiao is great. I use the basics (that's all I know) when doing sweep/throw round robbins at my gym. It feels natural with my KF background, and yes is a traditional cma. It even has *****in' names for postures like "leaning forward to search for the sea". My biggest beef with both traditional and modern/sports guys on this board is this belief that cma is a striking art only. At the core of most good fighting that I've seen, weather bjj, judo, cma, boxing etc. the general idea is to uproot (make unbalanced) your opponent, then attack/finish. In other words, gain position, then apply your technique.

I agree with the now exposed chi hippy st00 in that the biggest problem with so called traditional martial arts today is the lack of competition, and theory of application based on unrealistic training. Those on the board who know older generation cma people, have seen them either invited or invite other cma practitioners to exchange ideas and fight at a high level. Yes, people even get hurt! That's why a lot of these folks are experts in chinese medicine as well. CMA often expound control, so in my view it should not be a huge jump to be able to do some kind of comp in the ring with more traditional fighting, even outside of San Shou. I think the biggest problem is the lack of cooperation and organization amongst different schools under the modern dojoish mckwoon (note: I am not criticising Karate here, just the modern dojo).

I kinda side tracked this thread, so to bring it back, I would like to see other cma events held that allowed the modern practitioner an avenue where they could participate in a full contact event. That way, different schools could showcase their fighters using the same techniques that they learn in class. Shuai Chiao does it, why can't others?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I agree with the now exposed chi hippy st00

Watch your mouth, call me Chi Hippy!!!:mad:


:p

[lkfmdc]

sushi is Japanese for raw fish

bool go gi is a wonderful marinated Korean steak dish

what was the original point? :0

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

what was the original point? :0

That even though this is supposed to be a board for Chinese arts, the mods are moving Shuai Chiao threads to the other related arts board.

[lkfmdc]

they are moving Shuai Jiao threads? Oh please, the so called moderators don't even know what Shuai Jiao is??

That's pathetic..... but sadly not surprising....

[dezhen2001]

thats sucky :(

dawood

[Liokault]

we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd,


But here you cut your self off from kung fu and so put your self into the class of "other related arts".


Also how old is Shouai Chiao?......I dont mean how long have people been grappling in China, I mean how old is the art as you recognise it?

[truewrestler]

Kung Fu started with wrestling from India if you didn't know

[Liokault]

Kung Fu started with wrestling from India if you didn't know

Any real evidance of that HMMMM?

[Royal Dragon]

Kung Fu started with wrestling from India if you didn't know

False, Chinese Kung Fu started with the first chinese caveman hitting another, and then teaching how he did it to his clan. Were talking 20,000 years BC or more.

According to the "Spring and Autum" of Chinese martial arts", there is archialogical evidence of martial practice as far back as 1.7 million years in the form of fighting tools, and cave paintings.

By 2100 BC, the Xia dynasty was born, China's first slave state marking the end of primitive society. According to the Spring and Autum of Chinese martial arts", there were both armed and unarmed systems being practiced by the mlitary, and civillian populations. Shaolin Temple was built almost 3000 years later. Then, it's the Yogic traditions of India that were imported, and used as physical training, not the martial arts. The martial arts themselves are, and always have been purely Chinese in origin.

Huang ti (Yellow Emperor 27th century B.C, http://www.mystae.com/streams/ufos/emperor.html )

It is said during the reing of Hung Ti, organised combat in the form of "Horn" locking was practiced. This is the forebearer of Chinese Wrestling or Shui Chaio.

That all being said, Shui Chiao is arguably the OLDEST martial art in existence, short of maybe Greaco Roman wrestling.

[truewrestler]

Wrestling is the oldest sport let alone martial art.


there is archialogical evidence of martial practice as far back as 1.7 million years in the form of fighting tools, and cave paintings Yes, they did kill animals and each other

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Liokault



But here you cut your self off from kung fu and so put your self into the class of "other related arts".



Yeah!?!?! Well at least I don't beat up on girls.

[Liokault]

there is archialogical evidence of martial practice as far back as 1.7 million years in the form of fighting tools, and cave paintings


I some how had the idea that cave paintings only ever showed aminals........I could be wrong about this but I would be very interested in seeing a cave painting showing 2 trogs grappling.


Also at what point did Shuai Chiao become Shuai Chiao as u know it (i.e. a formal system) and not just wreastling that you could find every where else in the world?

[Royal Dragon]

Don't know for sure (Without a time machine), supposedly in the time of the Yellow Emperor, or about 4000 years ago. Shaolin and it's Indian influance is a tad over 1500. I'm sure curriculems were varied, but all the concepts were suposedly inplace by then, maybe earlier.

It's been awile since I looked at this stuff, but I seem to remeber that arrows uncovered from that far back were horisontally made. This indicates use against humans because our rib slots are horisontal. Hungting arrows are vertical to more easily slide thru the vertiucal rib slots of game.

Either way, it indicates the Chinese were fighting long before the infuance of the Indian "Monks", and Chinese Kung Fu IS a uniquely Chinese system of combat (for the most part).

[truewrestler]

****, I can't find the page now but I did a search yesterday on google regarding kung fu history and india. It said that there was martial arts in china well before the indian monks brought kung fu to the shaolin temple. I don't remember the details but it something about greek pankration being an influence on chinese martials arts well before shaolin kung fu was created.

I'll post a link when I find it... searching through my browser's history now because I can't get it to come up on google.

[GGL]

Orginally Chiao-Ti (horn locking) utill the name Shuai Chiao or Swai Jiao being agreed on by the 1928 National Koushu Committee in Nanking. I believe

[Royal Dragon]

Personnally, I think the Pankration thing is a bit of a stretch on thier part.

[Black Jack]

I don't see how its anymore of a stretch than the supposed histories given by "ancient" asian systems for their forms, backgrounds, and timelines.

Every culture this side of a fat ladies arse has had its share of dangerous people. Unless you own a H.G. Wells time machine the best we can all do is make our educated guesses and play games of ego academia.

It all started when the first caveman picked up a rock and smashed the other gents grapes in for squeezing his juicebox.

btw- If you do own a time machine, sign me up for the expedition as I am itching to kick a morlock in the throat.

[rogue]

Watch it BJ, the morlocks were the good guys.:p

[Black Jack]

LOL!

You may be on to something. The Eloi do look a bit like the French.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Every culture this side of a fat ladies arse has had its share of dangerous people. Yeah, what about the other side of a fat lady's arse?! HUH? Totalitarialitittieantinationanalistarianis...t, er. *****.

[rogue]

The morlocks (people like us BJ) worked and kept things running, the Eloi (liberal Democrats and Canadians) were just food. Interesting twist Wells put in.:D

[Chang Style Novice]

This is quite an educational board. I never realized that supporting a workers revolution against the idle rich made one a conservative republican before. I always had the idea that was a rather communistic POV.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ralphie
My biggest beef with both traditional and modern/sports guys on this board is this belief that cma is a striking art only. At the core of most good fighting that I've seen, weather bjj, judo, cma, boxing etc. the general idea is to uproot (make unbalanced) your opponent, then attack/finish. In other words, gain position, then apply your technique.


The thought isn't that CMA is all about striking, the thought is that CMA has no substantial groundwork.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon


Huang ti (Yellow Emperor 27th century B.C, http://www.mystae.com/streams/ufos/emperor.html )

It is said during the reing of Hung Ti, organised combat in the form of "Horn" locking was practiced. This is the forebearer of Chinese Wrestling or Shui Chaio.

That all being said, Shui Chiao is arguably the OLDEST martial art in existence, short of maybe Greaco Roman wrestling.

As far as the caveman thing earlier is this post, I wouldn't qualify that as martial arts. As far as SC being the oldest, there is plenty of evidence of ma in africa well before 27 BC

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Personnally, I think the Pankration thing is a bit of a stretch on thier part.

why would that seem like such a stretch?

[TigerJaw]

Welles was in fact a fabian. Upper-class fore-runner to the labor movement. AKA Socialism or Solidarity. Not quite a Commy but leaning that way on.

The Morloks were the English working class. The Eloi were the Upper class. At the time there as not a significant middle class. Can't really compare to modern America with it's ever expanding middle class and working poor.

[Chang Style Novice]

Actually, the real middle class in America has been shrinking steadily since the 80s.

[omarthefish]

The stretch isn't that pankraton existed way back then. The stretch is that there is any kind of continuity that can be traced from then until now.

Re: How close is todays shuai jiao to the 2000 years ago version...

Probably about the same as todays wrestling with ancient wrestling. 'Shuai Jiao' is actually just the Chinese name for wrestling. I am aware that 'shuai jiao' is mainly about throws and 'wrestling' is mainly about ground work but there IS no other word for wrestling in Chinese. 'Shuai jiao' literally translated means "throwing and falling". I bought a book once in China about western style wrestling. Do you know what they called it? "Ancient Wrestling Fundamentals". (Gudian Shuaijiao) There's Mongolian Shuai Jiao and Hebei? (I forget the main styles in China) Modern wrestlers talk about Russian wrestling vs. Turkish vs. American. They're all about the same. Just different styles. (in the non-MA dictionary regular folks common usage sense of the word)

Olympic style wrestling is called Gudian (ancient) Shuaijiao. Japanese styles have their own names because the Japanese characters can be read in Chinese. eg. Judo. In Chinese, it's Roudao. Jujitsu? Roushu.

[WanderingMonk]

sorry, omar,

Shuai jiao literally means "throwing horn".

"throwing and falling", how does jiao tranlate into falling? :)

wm

[Water Dragon]

Omar, whenever you hear the term Shuai Chiao in the U.S., it's usually Bao Ding Kuai Chiao or Chan Chiao that's being referred to.

[GGL]

When a art says.. it incorportes Shuai Chiao.. It may mean.. I know a couple of throws.. so I can say I teach that.. but far from that.. If you know a couple of throws and locks.. does that really mean you know Shuai Chiao.. I will give you a for instance...

My belting test.. I had to do:
1)demostrate with knowledge 80 throws.
2) survive 30 rounds of wrestling with changing out with fresh people
3) do 15 3 min. rounds of full contact with kick punch lock throw...
4) demonstrate 30 kick punch lock throw combinations
5) demonstrate 30 kick punch lock combinations with only control of the opponent
6) make up your own Shuai Chiao form with only Shuai Chiao techiques.. (diag strike, march kick, throws, and so...)
7) past present and future of Shuai Chiao (essay)
8) my person growth of Shuai Chiao (essay)
9) what you can bring to Shuai Chiao (essay)..

So if you term Shuai Chaio as only wrestling.. then your only getting a fraction of the picture.. Yes it does encompass a lot of throws.. but is that before or after you recieve the strikes and kicks with locks??

Maybe that should be the motto:

Throw them on their head.. then kick some sense into them..

But then again I am kinda biased :)

[Water Dragon]

Great Post! Any chance you could share a couple of those combos?

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
sorry, omar,

Shuai jiao literally means "throwing horn".

"throwing and falling", how does jiao tranlate into falling? :)

wm

Sorry WanderingMonk,

Shai jiao literally means "throwing foot", at least according to the 2000 printing of the Xinhua dictionary published in Beijing and used as the standard by most students from middle school through college.

I know your thinking of the story that Shuaijiao evolved out of some sort of ritualized combat where the combatants dress up with animal horns. However, the character for horn (3rd tone) and the one used for shuaijiao (1st tone) are different. The origin story may be true but the word "shuaijiao" does not reflect this.

Water Dragon,
Thanks for the clarification.

GGL,
Sorry to step on your toes. I understand the difference between 'shuai jiao' the term in Chinese and 'shuai jiao' as a style of combat. I would answer your post by saying that when you say only wrestling, perhaps you are getting a limited picture too. I've seen it in context. I would argue just that in some parts of the world they expect you to throw some strikes to set up your throws when you are wrestling. Perhaps you could tell me what term I could use to refer to wrestling in Chinese? I'm not aware of another term. It seems to me that the best solution is to either (from a Chinese perspective) to refer to wrestling as "Western Shuai Jiao" or (from a western perspective) to refer to Shuai Jiao as "Chinese Wrestling".

Don't take it as a slant against your art. It's just a linguistic problem and untill someone suggests a better translation, I'm sticking with mine.

[Brad]

sorry, omar,

Shuai jiao literally means "throwing horn".

"throwing and falling", how does jiao tranlate into falling?
My classmate had an interesting conversation with one of the OSU Shui Jiao people after class today. Turns out there's two different ways of writing Shui Jiao. The old way has the charecter for horn in it, and the new way has a charecter that has to do with falling or something like that(I don't think it translated directly to well).

[omarthefish]

woah. simultaneous posts.

In reference to yours, I should add that 'contains the symbol for horn' is signifigantly different from 'is the symbol for horn'. It's an interesting piece of etymology though.

[Brad]

:D

[neigung]

Don't forget that Shuai Jiao/Chiao very probably came from Mongolian Boke.

[No_Know]

"Shuai Chiao is a Chinese martial art. Yes, I know it can be hard to believe. We don’t develop Chi, we’re not deadly to be in the ring, and we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd, but we are a Chinese martial art. In fact, Shuai Chiao is a TRADITIONAL Chinese martial art.

Shuai Chiao may even be the oldest of the Chinese martial arts."

And before that was Shuai li. And before that Shuai Ti.~ Shuai Chiao was done wearing a helmet with a horn on it or some such. One would gorge the other with the horn still on the head.

This Ring type Sport was popular and also evolved. Its porgenator(s) and progeny were training resources for military/ royal bodyguard types.

"In conclusion, Shuai Chiao is a Chinese Martial art, a form of Kung Fu and not an Other Related Art."

Shuai Chiao is a Martial sport of China. Mongolia is reknown for wrestlers. it is my whatever that Northern Chinese Might have picked-up this cultural habit as a regional thing and it was thought of as nifty. and became popular. It might actually be Mongolian. And if it is Chinese it is art only in as much as a good Boxing (Gentlemanly~ Art) combination at the right moment is a thing of Beauty to behold. As Shuai Chiao is perfoofmed in a limited space--ring-of sorts. Therefore a Sport. Kun-Fu is Not a Sport. Therefore Shuai Chiao is Not Kung-Fu. With that fits validly and soundly the category of Other Related...As the website is KUNG-FU/QIGONG...[looking], [looking], [looking...]. Nope, (in the title) no sight of Shuai Chiao nor CHINese SPORT.

Whatever it was called at various stages throws were used. It was used in battle but was also entertainment. I have to think that a battle tactic that was also a Sport was using the sport to help train the battle tactic. And that soldiers would tweak it some or practice particular aspect or something. But It is it's own thing Not a kung-fu, yet Kung-Fu?

It's a sport. Putting into Others related... seems not off.


omarthefish

Suggestion: as English does not have a single name for wrestling(in America has seizing and controling and throws) with punching(extensive) and kicking (extensive) perhaps it could be merely called Shuai Chiao.

Shuai Chiao stops, when other than the feet touch the ground (if that's true) then it's standing something or other.

Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street...Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting.
Hand on the ground.

[omarthefish]

Here are the problems I see with that point of view:

1.Nearly every MA in China has a SOME kind of tradition of formal challenge matches like the Leitai or pushhands competitions. So, if competition inside a ring makes it sport instead of gong-fu, then you better put ALL the threads into the 'other' forum.

2.Gross misuse of the word art. Grab a websters. 'Art' can also simply refer to skill or technique. In Chinese, the confusion dissappears completely as the 'shu' of 'wushu' clearly means 'skill or technique'. To make a comparision:

wushu --- martial arts
MEIshu --- fine arts (oil painting, calligraphy etc.)

one is the techniques/skill of war
the other is the techniques/skill of art

3. The various different names that Englsh has for wrestling are names for separate aspects of wrestling. In the same way, all the examples you gave are separate aspects of Shuaijiao. So what's the difference?

seizing and controling : chin na
punching : da
kicking : ti

4. Because the fight ends when one something besides the leg touches? Well, there's different rules for different styles just like the rules are different in freestyle, catch and greco-roman.

And that still leaves my main point untouched. Look up 'wrestling' in an English-Chinese dictionary and I believe you will find the entry on the Chinese side to be 'shuai jiao'.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street...Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting.
Hand on the ground.

:D Yeah...that'll work in conversation. I'm not trying to say it's the same thing as greco roman. Chinese wrestling just followed a slightly different evolutionary path.

[No_Know]

"1.Nearly every MA in China has a SOME kind of tradition of formal challenge matches like the Leitai or pushhands competitions. So, if competition inside a ring makes it sport instead of gong-fu, then you better put ALL the threads into the 'other' forum."


Formal challenges are practices Of, not how they are practiced.

Theoretically, one does not need a leitai to practice Kung-Fu. Hence the great absence of leitai in many Kwoons.

[yenhoi]

For a bunch of people who study fighting, you are awfully attached to words and labels.

:D

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by omarthefish


Sorry WanderingMonk,

Shai jiao literally means "throwing foot", at least according to the 2000 printing of the Xinhua dictionary published in Beijing and used as the standard by most students from middle school through college.

I know your thinking of the story that Shuaijiao evolved out of some sort of ritualized combat where the combatants dress up with animal horns. However, the character for horn (3rd tone) and the one used for shuaijiao (1st tone) are different. The origin story may be true but the word "shuaijiao" does not reflect this.

okay, I see your Xinhua dictionary published in 2000. I'll raise you with the Far East English Chinese Dictionary published in Taipei, Taiwan in 1975. This was the authoritative dictionary used by majority chinese in Taiwan back then.

The entry for Wrestling is translated into chinese as "jiao li" (literally "horn strength"). The chinese character for "horn" (jiao) is used. Since Taiwan use the old traditional script and didn't have a "cultural revolution", I believe "throwing horn" is the more traditional translation.

You can do a search on google for "shuai jiao" in traditional chinese and you will find sites which write "shuai jiao" as "throwing horn"
(http://www.lab.mlc.edu.tw/~mlact/200303/law/008.shtml
http://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%91%94%E8%A7%92&hl=zh-TW&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N)

correction: after some more research, the "throwing horn" as "chinese wrestling" was adopted in the early republican days. I had over-stated how long this term was used. I now stand corrected. In the qing dynasty time, the term "pu hu" ("pouncing tiger") was used to destinate the art of wrestling.

wm

[neigung]

Originally posted by No_Know
"Shuai Chiao is a Chinese martial art. Yes, I know it can be hard to believe. We don’t develop Chi, we’re not deadly to be in the ring, and we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd, but we are a Chinese martial art. In fact, Shuai Chiao is a TRADITIONAL Chinese martial art.

Shuai Chiao may even be the oldest of the Chinese martial arts."

And before that was Shuai li. And before that Shuai Ti.~ Shuai Chiao was done wearing a helmet with a horn on it or some such. One would gorge the other with the horn still on the head.

This Ring type Sport was popular and also evolved. Its porgenator(s) and progeny were training resources for military/ royal bodyguard types.

"In conclusion, Shuai Chiao is a Chinese Martial art, a form of Kung Fu and not an Other Related Art."

Shuai Chiao is a Martial sport of China. Mongolia is reknown for wrestlers. it is my whatever that Northern Chinese Might have picked-up this cultural habit as a regional thing and it was thought of as nifty. and became popular. It might actually be Mongolian. And if it is Chinese it is art only in as much as a good Boxing (Gentlemanly~ Art) combination at the right moment is a thing of Beauty to behold. As Shuai Chiao is perfoofmed in a limited space--ring-of sorts. Therefore a Sport. Kun-Fu is Not a Sport. Therefore Shuai Chiao is Not Kung-Fu. With that fits validly and soundly the category of Other Related...As the website is KUNG-FU/QIGONG...[looking], [looking], [looking...]. Nope, (in the title) no sight of Shuai Chiao nor CHINese SPORT.

Whatever it was called at various stages throws were used. It was used in battle but was also entertainment. I have to think that a battle tactic that was also a Sport was using the sport to help train the battle tactic. And that soldiers would tweak it some or practice particular aspect or something. But It is it's own thing Not a kung-fu, yet Kung-Fu?

It's a sport. Putting into Others related... seems not off.


omarthefish

Suggestion: as English does not have a single name for wrestling(in America has seizing and controling and throws) with punching(extensive) and kicking (extensive) perhaps it could be merely called Shuai Chiao.

Shuai Chiao stops, when other than the feet touch the ground (if that's true) then it's standing something or other.

Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street...Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting.
Hand on the ground.

Wrestling mats and a set sized ring aren't needed to practice shuai jiao. A jacket isn't needed to practice it. Rules and conduct when fighting aren't part of the shuai jiao curriculum. True, modifications can be added to make it competition friendly, but it is a martial art, not a martial sport.
Shuai jiao does not stop when the opponent touches the ground. This is a modification added for competition.
Truly, when you are standing and your opponent is on the ground, this is the ultimate advantage. Shuai jiao then seeks to further incapicitate the opponent to make sure he doesn't gain his feet. There is no backing off to allow him recovery.
Addressing the etymology, shuai jiao is indeed a 'kung fu', or skill attained through investment of time and effort. why wouldn't it be?
Shuai jiao is contained, in bits and pieces, in every style of kung fu. How can you say it is not kung fu when trained as a system in its entirety?
Shuai jiao certainly has the same aspects as all other kung fu styles; striking, kicking, locking, grappling, blocking, redirecting, trapping, bridging, etc.
Shuai jiao certainly has the same training methodologies as all other kung fu styles; stances, hard qigong sets (dyanmic tension sets), drills, forms, sparring.

[Royal Dragon]

Stop quibiling over the terms. Shui Chiao, no matter how you spell it, is Chinese wrestling.

The thought isn't that CMA is all about striking, the thought is that CMA has no substantial groundwork.

This is also not true. Our ground work is just not a humane snuggle till someone taps sort of thing, it's a viciously brutal ground and pound sort of thing that is geared so the one in the dominant position can brutally cripple the one in the inferior position as fast as possible wile still being able to bounce back to his feet with minimal time and effort to deal with multiple attackers.

Ground work does not nessasarily mean some sort of submission rolling with both people on the ground. There are also many ground based striking systems where one is down, and the other almost on his feet, or close to it too Yah know! ;)

[SevenStar]

if you are in a standing position and kicking or knee dropping an downed opponent, that is not groundwork, as you are not on the ground. It's called groun work because you're working from the ground. Now in the instance that you are close to the ground, that could count as ground work - but even that doesn't seem to be taught in all systems, which goes back to what I was saying about a lack of ground work...

[Royal Dragon]

If one guy is on the ground, and punishment is being applied, it's a ground fight.

[omarthefish]

However,
I did a bunch of searches using the Hong Kong and Taiwan search engines, sina.com.hk and sina.com.tw and came up with all these for Taiwan:

http://google.sina.com.tw/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?word=ˤõÓ

Notice, even in Taiwan there are plenty of people using the characters I described, ˤõÓ¡£ £¨I don't know if the font show up on this board)

To your credit though I got similar responese searching ˤ½Ç¡£

http://google.sina.com.tw/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?utf8=1&word=%E6%91%94%E8%A7%92&lr=

Notice, though, that all the sites uniformly use "wrestling" as the English translation.

Royal Dragon,
That was my original point. I thought I could use the language to drive the point home but WanderingMonk had to come in here and throw a wrench in the works showing me some folks use a different term.

Neigung,
I have nothing to add. Good rebuttal.

Yenhoi,
This thread is all about labels. Way back on page 1, I seem to remember the original topic was about how 'Shuai Jiao' should be here in the gong-fu forum, not over in the 'other arts' area. It never was a discussion about how to train or 'x' technque. I think this discussion (for better or worse) is about how to label Shuai Jiao. I just thought it touched on 2 slightly more interesting topics.

1. etymology and translation issues
2. history

Now if the thread STARTED with talk about techniques, this would be distracting but . . .

[omarthefish]

oh well, the fonts didn't work so the links came out gobbledy gook. If you can type Chinese, Monk, try the searches yourself. If not . . . HA! I look upon your linguistic challenge with scorn and pity!!! :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
If one guy is on the ground, and punishment is being applied, it's a ground fight.

I disagee. it's a multi level fight. tactics you use there will be different from a ground fight.

[Merryprankster]

This is also not true. Our ground work is just not a humane snuggle till someone taps sort of thing, it's a viciously brutal ground and pound sort of thing that is geared so the one in the dominant position can brutally cripple the one in the inferior position as fast as possible wile still being able to bounce back to his feet with minimal time and effort to deal with multiple attackers.

Hi RD! You're being boring again!

[Royal Dragon]

Your just saying that becasue your not Brutal!

























:eek: :D :p

[No_Know]

"Wrestling mats and a set sized ring..."

You added to what I put, thereby making it Not what I put.

The ring is not sized necessarily but you indicate that there is a ring, which Is what I put.

I don't even practice on mats. Mats to me are relatively new-ish. Shuai Chiao I would think to be older than mats (used in training--find soft ground or make it softer, but don't make portable ground...it seems impractical since I'm likely to be actually using ground and won't be able to pull my mats out nor along to land-on when I get jumped.

Words and more words. If one image is worth a thousand words then a movie is indescribable in a Human's natural lifetime, practically.

You understand what you understand. I also. If you are wrong~ I cannot point that out to you with words necessarily. And when you and I or whomever and whomever are done success at having you say I'm correct is faiure at living perhaps. My point or winning you over or saying a good definition might not should be the defining moment of my Life at any moment.

We talk from hearsay. Accepted hearsay perhaps. But if we were not there we theoretically do not actually Know. This stuff from a while ago.

If I can think of how others got it wrong or did bad or worse. I can take that and get to perhaps do better, I like that--hearsay/h er/is tory with a gran of salt.

However, if life Is what we make of it. Pick Good hearsay to believe and Know that you are right and be happy.

"Truly, when you are standing and your opponent is on the ground, this is the ultimate advantage."

For the person on the ground, because you have to come to me and are more likely off balance or have your vital weight support where I can easily access it. (Not what you meant I think)

"Shuai jiao is contained, in bits and pieces, in every style of kung fu. How can you say it is not kung fu when trained as a system in its entirety?"

You ask me? But I did not say that at all. I would think. But you do, when you say Kung-Fus contain It you seperate it from Kung-Fu.
However, relevantly it seems fairly inclusive.