Kung Fu Fighters -- Amateur Kickboxing and MMA Event needs fighters

[truewrestler]

http://mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=258655&P=24&FID=1&c=1

(disclaimer: I don't know anything about this event or promoter other than what has been posted at the above link)

[MasterKiller]

Kung fu doesn't translate into the ring.

[truewrestler]

I think it means Chinese Boxing

[MasterKiller]

I don't see any reference to Chinese boxing in the ad.

Kung Fu cannot be used to effectively sport box someone, and it was never intended to do so.

[ShaolinTiger00]

lol @ "too deadly for the ring" mentality.

[truewrestler]

Doesn't Kung Fu traslante into Chinese Boxing?

"Kung Fu cannot be used to effectively sport box someone, and it was never intended to do so."

Are you being sarcastic? I think many San Shou fighters who frequent would disagree with you.

Regardless... I did not create this thread for discussion. I posted the information because some board members have expressed interested in competing in MMA.

[MasterKiller]

Doesn't Kung Fu traslante into Chinese Boxing?No. Kung Fu means "hard work." Wushu means "martial art," not sport art.

I didn't say "too deadly." What I'm saying is that Kung Fu was developed to take people out quickly on the battlefield. It was not developed as an endurance contest for multi-round fights.

If you can't do things like throw elbows or forearms to the head or chest, or kick to the knees or ankles, then you are forcing a kung fu fighter into a sport fight, which he will not be prepared for.

And if throwing an elbow into someone's nose isn't deadly, why isn't it allowed in the ring?

[truewrestler]

If you can't do things like throw elbows or forearms to the head or chest, or kick to the knees or ankles, then you are forcing a kung fu fighter into a sport fight, which he will not be prepared for.

And if throwing an elbow into someone's nose isn't deadly, why isn't it allowed in the ring? Many MMA organizations allow most or all that you have described. When elbows are allowed to the face (all UFC fights since the beginning) they are indeed allowed to the nose. In the thousands of MMA fights that allow elbows to the nose not a single death has occured as a result of such a blow.

I must ask again, are you being sarcastic, trolling, etc?

[MasterKiller]

Deadly was ST00's term, not mine. I used the term loosely to point out competition rules are installed to watch out for the fighter's safety.

San Shou is a different beast all together. It IS intended for competition.

[truewrestler]

... I'm thinking I'm just going to ignore you

Like I said before, I did not create this thread for discussion.

to the top

[Merryprankster]

I'm sorry, but that's just dumb. If you can't get what you do in the kwoon to work right in the ring you're long on tricks and short on basics.

Finally, you can elbow, knee and attack the joints in many contests.

[SifuAbel]

Sorry to do this to you, MK, but I'm forced to agree with the Drama queen and the BJJ enforcers.

CTMA has been called Chinese boxing in the past. There is no reason why a person couldn't enter in these types of events if so inclined. To punch, kick, throw, etc, is not beneath us or beyond us. Kung fu is not some arcane magical system, it is fighting plain and simple.

San shou was created BY TCMA as an avenue for free fighting. If they want to make it something else now, they can go ahead and rewrite history if they want.

There are only so many ways you can punch, kick, throw, etc, anyways.

[Merryprankster]

If talking sense labels me a BJJ Enforcer, so be it :D

Heck, you're 80% BJJ enforcer yourself. It's just the other 20% I've got trouble with...

[SifuAbel]

How am I a BJJ enforcer?

At least you are not a drama queen. :D

[Merryprankster]

You don't accept stupid excuses.

As for not being a drama queen, you've never seen me in a skirt...

[MasterKiller]

Kung fu is not some arcane magical system, it is fighting plain and simple. I never claimed otherwise. Fighting is not the same as boxing, though.

Just curious, how many grapplers on this forum have ever competed in a NHB tourny where elbows to the face and kicks to the joints were allowed?

[ShaolinTiger00]

to agree with the Drama queen

Can we put the name calling and pettiness to rest now?

Maybe we don't agree on some things Abel, but I think at the core we share many of the same fundamental opinions in regards to kung fu.


If you're ever in DC, we'll work out and then get drunk on mojitos and laugh.

[lkfmdc]

Masterkiller, before you act like you know what you are talking about, maybe consult some facts?

San Shou was created by the Chinese MILITARY for close quarters combat.

I know, you are still trying to blow that chicken up at 30 yards with your deadly chi blast...

The "too deadly" crap is such a joke, no wonder most of you can't last more than a minute in a real fighting event

[MasterKiller]

I know, you are still trying to blow that chicken up at 30 yards with your deadly chi blast... When have I ever claimed anything to support this accusation?

San Shou was created by the Chinese MILITARY for close quarters combat.OK. In their infinite wisdom, did they decide that kicking joints and throwing elbows would not occur in a real combat situation?

[Merryprankster]

Just curious, how many grapplers on this forum have ever competed in a NHB tourny where elbows to the face and kicks to the joints were allowed?

I haven't, but plenty have. IVT in Brazil allows everything except eyegouging and biting, including headbutts, UFC allows elbows to the face both standing and on the ground. It also allows striking to the joints.

Prides rules, while not allowing elbows, do allow knee strikes to the head on the ground, as well as soccer kicks to the head of a downed opponent to make up for that.

But, since you're setting up a straw man anyway, how about you tell us how many MMA events you've been in at all? I mean, one good straw man deserves another!

[MasterKiller]

I'm well aware that some events allow this kind of fighting. I'm just wondering how many of our ring-fighting experts here have competed in them. You guys always use the 'been there, done that' defense...so how many have been there, and done that?

[Merryprankster]

Like I said, setting up a straw man.

I have fought. The rules did not allow elbowing. However, I've no idea what the rest of the rules were because I didn't attend the rules meeting.

It was fairly immaterial anyway because of the way the fight went. Nobody really got into a position to elbow and it went to the ground too fast for joint strikes to matter.

When have you fought?

[truewrestler]

MP, I heard you messed up the guy's foot/ankle. I think it was Lloyd who told me the guy didn't tap and you applied pressure until there was a loud pop. (I PMed you)

[MasterKiller]

I know you have competed and done well. But I don't see how limiting rules is immaterial to a fight, though. If the rules allowed for certain things, the fight may not have progressed as it did, and could have very well gone in a different direction. You compete enough to know what the basic rules are for the events you enter, and I'm sure the techniques you would use are based on that previous experience regardless if you attended the rules meeting or not.

I don't compete. I don't have the time to train to get into that kind of shape.

[Merryprankster]

I don't compete. I don't have the time to train to get into that kind of shape.

Yeah, I gathered. But when was the last time you fought?

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont particularly have time for tournaments, but I fight with grapllers and have been scheduling a nice long fight with a muay thai dude I know. We dont allow elbows to the face, or joint strikes, but everything else goes. We are trying to learn, not hurt each other.
But I guess that means Im just some sissy kung fu guy huh?

Edit: its not real unless its full contact with no pads....
:rolleyes:

i have work to do.
BBL

[Merryprankster]

SD,

Don't really understand your point, but whatever floats your boat.

Personally, good on yah for finding people who (presumably) know what they are doing to play with.

[Merryprankster]

Masterkiller,

For what it's worth, here's the vid of my only fight. I don't think rules would have made much of a difference this particular time.

http://www.apoweyn.net/martialarts/videos/jvalentine01.zip

Personally, all I can do now is look back on that and see SO MANY mistakes...

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, I gathered. But when was the last time you fought? I've been in 3 fights since I was 18. I had my @ss handed to me once. My last real fight was 3.5 years ago in a bar after a guy grabbed my wife's hair. I hit him with a forearm to the mouth and he dropped. That was the extent of it.

EDIT--I've seen that footage. I never said you don't have skills.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
You don't accept stupid excuses.

As for not being a drama queen, you've never seen me in a skirt...


Not accepting excuses goes beyond style. Enforcing BJJ is another issue altogether.

As far as you in a skirt, that visual will haunt my nightmares for years!!! :D

[Merryprankster]

Right. So, neither of us do this day in and day out, getting exposed to so many variables that we could possibly say anything authoritative. You can't really speak to what might have happenned and neither can I.

All we can do is speculate.

And that's my point about the straw man. My experiences don't invalidate or validate yours, and vice versa. It's not very useful to speak in terms of well, have YOU fought in 'x'? Goes nowhere in this type of conversation.

FWIW that guy sounds like a ****. Good job :D

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Can we put the name calling and pettiness to rest now?

Maybe we don't agree on some things Abel, but I think at the core we share many of the same fundamental opinions in regards to kung fu.


If you're ever in DC, we'll work out and then get drunk on mojitos and laugh.

Of course, your Majesty, maybe one day.

"I think at the core we share many of the same fundamental opinions in regards to kung fu."

Uhhhhhhhhh, did I miss something?

[truewrestler]

That is very cool of you to post MP.

You have caught me in that on multiple occasions rolling in the past and it feels like escape is just a moment away (lack of experience on my part)... but you get so much pressure on the foot/ankle that it is either tapout or limpout :p

[norther practitioner]

I think what it is coming down to is what you train for.. sporting guys train for there sport, which is similar to what traditionalist train for, but not the same.. A traditionalist should (should being the operative) be able to alter his training for a sporting event, however, most do not. I don't hold any interest in competing in a sport event anytime soon, so I don't train to that set of rules. There are some things that I do train that I feel are ineffective for sport fighting more so than other situations. That just boils down to me as being up against another skilled fighter, with a backround (most times) in dealing with other skilled fighters. I do find it frustrating sometimes only sparring with people within my school, but I also won't go out and spar outside of class right now as a curtisy to my teacher, whom asked me not to yet... It is to help me improve right now, he knows what he is doing, and I will be able to in the future, however he doesn't want me to get myself in over my head with someone I don't really know (as happend with one of his students last summer). Maybe next summer I'll start doing the sans shou or sparring in the tournies that I go to, however, I'll have to train for that, as my conditioning isn't where it should be (even just for my current, let alone for something like that).

[ShaolinTiger00]

Uhhhhhhhhh, did I miss something?

*Avoids knee-jerk reaction to scream "the boat" as we both know how sensitive that topic can be* :D

Maybe we don't agree then.?

Either way arguing on the internet, moronic name calling etc. "challenges" - it's all crap and I don't want any part of it, so I'm extending an olive branch to a guy I've obviously ****ed off in the past.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


*Avoids knee-jerk reaction to scream "the boat" as we both know how sensitive that topic can be* :D

Maybe we don't agree then.?

Either way arguing on the internet, moronic name calling etc. "challenges" - it's all crap and I don't want any part of it, so I'm extending an olive branch to a guy I've obviously ****ed off in the past.

You mean as in marielito? Not that I have to validate myself to the likes of you, *******. But I was Born in miami in '68 and my family came over on a plane in '61. Your disdain for those poor souls that came over in '80 is indicative that you are definatly from(or at least married to) that pseudo-snobbish sect that likes to hyphenate thier names in order to appear more "uppercrust". Like it somehow erases the fact that they are refugees too. Your type makes me sick. Your use of that flag as your avatar makes me sick. You stick your olive branch up your ass, Your highness.

[apoweyn]

Here we go again.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You mean as in marielito?

Actually the thought never crossed my mind until you mentioned it. I was thinking of the very unfortunate and imho very wrong recent situation with the truck-boat scaenario and how much I detest the coast guard's policy.




But I was Born in miami in '68 and my family came over on a plane in '61.

That's very fortunate for your family. Did they have to leave family behind?



Your disdain for those poor souls that came over in '80 is indicative that you are definatly from(or at least married to) that pseudo-snobbish sect that likes to hyphenate thier names in order to appear more "uppercrust".

While the name is hypenated and the family were wealthy There is certainly no distain or snobbery. Esp from my wife and myself. As I've told you we are supportes & contributors to many causes which almost always benefit the most recent political refugees, not the first generation who is already very substantial.
However you and I both know that what you speak of is common among the older generation and (in some cases justified) but to many yucas (young urban cuban-americans)calling someone a "marielito" is very much slang for thug, hood, n i g g a , etc.


Your type makes me sick. Your use of that flag as your avatar makes me sick. You stick your olive branch up your ass, Your highness.

Tell me how you really feel!


:rolleyes: game on! ;)

[Water Dragon]

http://alpacino.4mg.com/image/scar3.jpg

[ShaolinTiger00]

WD

"I neva ****ed anybody over in my life, who didn't have it comin' to 'im, you got that? All I have in this world is my balls, and my word, and I don't break 'em for no one, jou understand?"

[Water Dragon]

"SifuAbel points his fuggin' finger and says, Dats da bad guy"

[SifuAbel]

Way to white wash it. I'm not going to continue with this.

[SevenStar]

"All I have in this world is my word and my nuts, and won't break em for nobody..."

- Memphis Bleek

[HuangKaiVun]

I intend to send a kung fu fighter into the cage eventually.

We're still preparing him. It'll take us about a year to adjust his combat method to the ring rules. He'll start as an amateur fighter and make his way upwards if he's good enough.

The hardest thing to do in preparing a kung fu fighter for the octagon is deconditioning the trained instinct to do all the illegal things that NHB rules prohibit.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The hardest thing to do in preparing a kung fu fighter for the octagon is deconditioning the trained instinct to do all the illegal things that NHB rules prohibit.

No chi blasts! :rolleyes:

not after that last kung fu guy did so well....

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
As for not being a drama queen, you've never seen me in a skirt...

http://www.allstarz.org/~malkovich/pics/reddress.jpg

[lkfmdc]

funny how no kung fu people appeared and destroyed the field back when the ONLY RULES were no eye gouging and no biting... that certainly leaves a lot of room for all those deadly kung-fooey techniques.. yet, not ONE ever won an event........

[SifuAbel]

In all fairness , which event are you talking about?

And, where were you?

[truewrestler]

He is talking about the 3 or so years in the mid 90s that the UFC and other events had only a few rules. There are still events in Brazil with only these few rules. Like he said no Kung Fu practitioner has won a tournament or title then or now.

[lkfmdc]

I have never competed in the UFC for a few simple and logical reasons. First and foremost, I was never a professional fighter. Until 1998, I was a full time school teacher. Second, in shape I am around 177 and the early UFC's were open weight class. Finally, my family had asked me to stop fighting.

NOTE: none of the above reasons are "well if I couldn't use my secret weasal dim mak, I said I wouldn't do it"

And actually, Rorion Gracie called me about fighting in UFC 5...

[truewrestler]

When is Cung Le going to finish up his grappling training so he can jump in the UFC?!??!?! I think he will really bring attention to San Shou, and also Kung Fu in general, when he starts competing in MMA (i'm hoping it is inevitable).

Martial arts like TKD and Karate have definitely gained respect over the years through fighters like Guy Mezger and Shonie Carter respectively.... at least in my eyes but I'm sure others.

[Chang Style Novice]

Mojitos for everybody!

[truewrestler]

WTF is a Mojitos? Does it have anything to do with oral pleasure?

[Chang Style Novice]

It's a Cuban drink, like a mint julep with lime added and made with rum instead of bourbon. Enjoying them orally is the traditional and preferred method.

[Water Dragon]

For a minute there I thought you were talking about mojados for everybody.

[truewrestler]

That sounds very good! Next time I have a party I'll keep that drink in mind.

(goes to the fridge to make some chocolate milk)

[Chang Style Novice]

Sadly, you can get mojados cheaper than mojitos here in Austin.

[truewrestler]

(goes to the fridge to make some more chocolate milk)

[Chang Style Novice]

How to mojito (http://hotwired.wired.com/****tail/95/48/index4a.html).

[mysteri]

i really don't see the harm in trainin for full-contact events. i mean, i think its prolly the next best way to develop ur martial skills next to goin out and pickin fights. i think if someone were to train their gong li, some traditional trainin methods, and some modern trainin methods, they should be in good enough shape to compete on local levels. me personally, i don't look foward to jumpin straight into MMA cuz i know i'm not ready for the ground game. but i'm more trainin for the kickboxing and muay thai competitions jus for some ring experience. maybe i'll find its not for me, or maybe i'll do very well. but the only thing i'll regret is if i never try. most people are not afforded this opportunity(work, family, age, etc..) since i'm still young and in my prime, i'm in that group of few people who would be willin to represent TCMA in todays sports arenas. i've been tryin to talk to guys like CLF and hung fut schools (since i think they'd likely be more in their element) to see who'd be willin to do this as well.

if nothin else, this would be a great excuse to sharpen our skills for street if we need them. of course, ultimately sport will still be sport and most of us will never be as good as the pro athletes that compete. some will disagree w/ me about my ambitions and others may encourage me, but as the old sayin goes,"man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt man doin it."

[Laughing Cow]

Mysteri.

Not going to disagree with you.

Just a quick question what do you think that entering a competition will give you in benefits that sparring against other stylists might not give you?

I have heard all about the intensity and that so on.

IMO, both sparring and competitions are controlled environments where your opponents is NOT trying to kill or maim you.
Difference I see is that in a competition you got more viewers than during a sparring session and that the goal is to win a prize or money.

Not trying to turn you away from competing if that is where your interests lie, just can't see much added benefit over a good "open mat" sparring session.

Seeya.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Until 1998, I was a full time school teacher.

Cool, what subject?

What people call san shou now was our daily practice for years. We just called it sparring. It is nothing new. We did rounds with contact, no points(or closing costs j/k). I don't subscribe to the "deadly' technique thing either. People are just trying to explain something that have no real answer for. Thats why you get all the speculators ranting about technique or rules or whatnot.

But, To site the 4 or 5 people that fought 10 years ago in UFC is no basis for judgment of the matter either. If you want to see were all the CMAers went, look over your shoulder, they went to do san shou. Thats what the CMA ers gear themselves up for.

IMNSHO, the thing thats wrong with fighters coming out of the kung fu(including SS) is not that certain attacks are not allowed, its the decline in the defensive tactics you were supposedly learning in your kung fu class'. Guard, perimeter control, centerline awareness, deflection and counterattack. Its woefully lacking.

[mysteri]

mr cow, thank u for ur question. i think the overall quality of fighters would be different b/c in order to voluntarily place urself in such a dangerous situation, u must be either very crazy, or hopefully skilled enough to compete @ that level. most people in local open sparrin competitions don't train sparrin properly or enough. they might spar every once in a while, or every night for that matter. but i don't think that most people have even trained their basics properly enough and went straight into free sparrin w/o proper direction. therefore, u get a bunch of people w/ diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the fist(ie. can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag!) so when u get a bunch of these poorly trained people together and call it a competition, the one who sux the least get's a pretty trophy and brags about it. after this "champion" wins enough of these competitions for years and learns enough forms, he can get a pretty sash and a certificate and open a new mcdojo up the street where he can teach more people to spar; it pretty much becomes a "blind leadin the blind" situation from then on.(man, that sounds kinda harsh, but honesty is my forte).

not everyone wants to learn kung fu to fight, and that's fine as long as its acknowledged honestly. where i have a problem is when people get these big ego's, run their mouth about how bad@$$ they r, but cash the checks w/ their @$$ that their mouth writes. now anyone can get took, includin myself. and if i don't think i'm up to a certain level, then i won't go there. but i've learned to have the courage to try things in life if i'm afforded the opportunity and have the will to do so. i never regret what i do, i regret what i don't do.(okay, i'm through ventin)

so conclusively, i think next to humility and patience, someone who claims to train seriously should train honestly. u can only lie to urself for so long and that shakes ur confidence. if u train ur 'gong li' to be very strong, then that can take u through anything in the martial arts. gung fu is goin to be a constant cyle of struggle then progress. this is the only way u can make it ur own. but if u don't train honestly and gain experience, then how will u ever really be able to assess ur abilities?

[Merryprankster]

Not trying to turn you away from competing if that is where your interests lie, just can't see much added benefit over a good "open mat" sparring session.

The added benefit is that the person across from you has no interest in your well-being. Sure, they'll follow the rules or get disqualified, but it's not a "friendly" session. Each person is doing everything they can to win. Speaking as a competitor who has attended many, many competitions and many open mats, I can assure you the mindset is completely different--both on the giving and receiving end :D

[Laughing Cow]

MP & Mysteri.

Agreed that you have to know your own limitations and be honest to yourself about them.

OTOH, if you enter you will only beat the other competitors may they be good or not.

Funny thing with competitions often the best people never enter them.
Why, I know ladies that would put to shame entrants in the Miss world, why don't they enter? Because they got nothing to proove to themselves or anybody else.

I know that my Sifu does not compete, but some of his students do.

This is not a slant on Competitors, competition can one give the drive to excel that might be missing if they never competed.

Anyhuh, I am staring to ramble.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


Cool, what subject?

What people call san shou now was our daily practice for years. We just called it sparring. It is nothing new. We did rounds with contact, no points(or closing costs j/k). I don't subscribe to the "deadly' technique thing either. People are just trying to explain something that have no real answer for. Thats why you get all the speculators ranting about technique or rules or whatnot.

But, To site the 4 or 5 people that fought 10 years ago in UFC is no basis for judgment of the matter either. If you want to see were all the CMAers went, look over your shoulder, they went to do san shou. Thats what the CMA ers gear themselves up for.

IMNSHO, the thing thats wrong with fighters coming out of the kung fu(including SS) is not that certain attacks are not allowed, its the decline in the defensive tactics you were supposedly learning in your kung fu class'. Guard, perimeter control, centerline awareness, deflection and counterattack. Its woefully lacking.


Best




Post





Ever

[lkfmdc]

I was a professor of modern Chinese history and an associate lecturer in the political science department in the field of international relations. One reason my family wanted me to stop fighting was they had invested so much money in my education they worried about Drain Bamage.....

Kung Fu has become a joke because people like those on this board have lost all connection with REALITY. Who exactly is going to be more prepared for a fight, a guy who TALKS about "deadly" techniques or someone who has fought FULL CONTACT....

It isn't a hard answer and yet 99% here are going to rattle off the old joke... and it's getting tired real fast

[Suntzu]

Not trying to turn you away from competing if that is where your interests lie, just can't see much added benefit over a good "open mat" sparring session. read my "WHY COMPETITION" thread... good stuff in there... altho i may be a lil biased...;) :D :p :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Wd,

Aw man ya' makin' me blush. :D

LK,

Oh snap!, you are a smarty.

[MasterKiller]

You would think a man with lkfmdc's grooming and intellect would be able to discuss something without resorting to calling someone a fairie, huh?

[truewrestler]

Yeah... he sounds really frustrated by the Kung Fu community

[Shaolin-Do]

by "kung fu community" you mean specific individuals who have apparently changed his overall perception....

[truewrestler]

are you talking in code? because I really have no idea what you just stated/asked

[SifuAbel]

As a matter of perspective, you must realize that many TMA schools have gone the way of family oriented training. Lets face it, hardcore fighter schools don't have huge amounts of people in them. And if there is a hardcore school that does have a lot of students, it has then succeeded in tapping the majority, if not the entirety, of the avaiable local market. Family oriented schools are not interested in producing someone to face Royce. They are happy if the student can get away from crack head bob. As far as the kids go, mommy jane is more pleased with little timmy if he blocks but DOESN'T hit back if he doesn't need to.
Blame it on the money.

[Water Dragon]

I disagree Abel. Well, that's the way it is, but not the way it needs to be. Look at it this way, the Boxing gyms get people, the Muay Thai gyms get peopple, the Judo gyms get people, the BJJ gyms get people, but the CMA fighting schools tend to scare people off.

Could it be that we're attracting the wrong types in the first place? Could it be that the fighters all think CMA is nothing but dim mak and chi balls and not look at CMA in the first place? Isn't it worth changing those perceptions so that real CMA does not die in the near future?

I can't say I agree with everyone lkfmdc says, but he's trying to change the perceptions of CMA so that it is again known as a fighters art. I'll back him 100 % on that.

[SifuAbel]

"Well, that's the way it is, but not the way it needs to be."

True, but thats the way it is.

Depending on the area, you might get a few hardcore schools with large amounts of people. But even in those schools not everyone is a superstar or even good for that matter.

Perspective is a funny thing, there are really no absolutes. I have met and trained with people from both sides of the spectrum from many arts. Some good, some bad, either way its their teachers and their training time I compliment or critique, not their styles.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You would think a man with lkfmdc's grooming and intellect would be able to discuss something without resorting to calling someone a fairie, huh?

You would think.

The thing is I agree that CMA should be considered a fighter's art even if you don't train to fight in the competitive world. lkfmc's intentions may be good, but not everyone is able to train to fight competitvely. Some aren't willing to give up lucrative jobs for the training comitment involved. Some aren't talented or physically gifted enough. Should the martial arts exclude them? Should they not be allowed to train for the off chance that they are mugged and forced to defend themselves? Are they less of a martial artist? I don't think so.

[truewrestler]

I don't think he is saying "Unless you are competitive in a world class San Da tournament you are not a good martial artist"

Train to fight... simple as that. There are many people who train in combat sports who don't compete in combat sports outside of their school.... I'm sure that is the case at his school also.

Following along with your post... should someone who can't spend their life training only get half-assed training?

[Shaolin-Do]

I don't think he is saying "Unless you are competitive in a world class San Da tournament you are not a good martial artist

He is basically saying that if you havent fought in tournaments you dont know sh!t....

[truewrestler]

That's not how I have taken his comments...

[Shaolin-Do]

Eh, different strokes for different folks.
He has had some interesting posts and good points. This is just not one of them.

Anyhow, I dont really care and why Im still arguing on this thread I do not know....
Oh yeah.
Im bored.
:)

[MasterKiller]

What he's saying is that only he is exempt from ridicule as a TMA because he's spars so darn hard. Golly, we shouldn't practice with foil swords or rely on Chinese forms for technique, but he gets to:

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-1.htm

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-2.htm

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-4.htm


But you better not say he can't fight or that he doesn't train hard. That hurts his feelings. Why, he's so good he owns the trademark on the only legitimate fighting style to come from China, even though it wasn't quite good enough so he changed it around and made it better so that lots of students could train.

Only he is allowed to say everyone else doing the exact same thing as him can't fight. And if you don't think that right, well, you must be a faerie.

[Water Dragon]

Calm down Master killer. It's only the internet

[MasterKiller]

It's only the internet That's what they want you to believe....:D

[Water Dragon]

lol

[lkfmdc]

Master Killer, the internet if flat, but rest assured, I don't have hurt feelings, I am sitting here laughing my arse off at you ... it's so much fun...

If a school, say MINe, has 0ver 500 students, and only about 20 of them compete, is that school's philosophy that you have to compete to be a martial artist? This isn't a trick question, you can all answer...

There are people who fight wars, we call them the military, there are people who don't fight wars, but appreciate their nation's miliary...

Then there are people who dress up in civil war uniforms, pretend they are confederate soldiers, re-enact a battle from years past and PRETEND to be military. Just most people don't think of them as cutting edge combat technology

Only the kung fu people look to the civil war re-enactors for cutting edge technology, while scoffing at the laser scopes...

[Shaolin-Do]

"is that school's philosophy that you have to compete to be a martial artist"

No but it appears to be your personal philosophy.

"Only the kung fu people look to the civil war re-enactors for cutting edge technology, while scoffing at the laser scopes..."

Wtf? What is your basis for this comment? How is it relative to this argument?

[truewrestler]

No but it appears to be your personal philosophy hint hint.... he was talking about HIS school

[MasterKiller]

If a school, say MINe, has 0ver 500 students, and only about 20 of them compete, is that school's philosophy that you have to compete to be a martial artist? This isn't a trick question, you can all answer... According to you, unless all 500 students compete in San Shou, then they are fooling themselves into believing their training is valid.

Are all 500 students MMA? No...the majority are probably studying Lama™, correct? Do you feel that you are training your Lama™ students to fight?

[Shaolin-Do]

*smacks forehead* Really?

...


Yes I knew that. Exactly how I have repeatedly stated that I do not represent the views of Shaolin-Do, but only my own.
Not using your personal views for the tao of your school is called "strategic marketing".
However... The views currently being expressed tend to attract the untrained and unbeknownst to the MA.

[lkfmdc]

have to call a spade a spade, you guys are just plain stupid, I just put a sandwich on a plate on the middle of the table in the middle of the room under a bright light.... and you guys are crawling around in the dark corner looking for something to eat..

If you can't even follow something so simple.....

[truewrestler]

You guys are really not understanding?

The techniques and training taught at his school has been refined through competition. Even those that do not intend to compete still train in much or exactly the same way. That is the point.... train to fight!

I have rolled with many grapplers who can kick my ass and they have never competed out side of the school's walls.

[Shaolin-Do]

My FVCKING GOD.....

How many times have I said that I fight and train regularly, or TRAIN TO FIGHT!?
Jesus...
But he is making blanket statements about people who practice kung fu...
WHICH IS WHAT YOU F*CKING TEACH!
Seriously... Reread your posts before calling people stupid.
Demonstrate the attitude of a sifu, not some punk kid that thinks hes the sh!t. I know there are several "sport oriented" fighters that can kick my ass, but I dont make generalized statements about them. I know that people differ. Its not the style, its the stylist.

[lkfmdc]

Actually Shaolin Do, if you have been paying attention, I am arguing with master killer, I have pretty much ignored you, the same way I ignore Catholic Rabbis, Hindu Popes and other people who add "do" to the end of their Chinese arts....

[fa_jing]

I agree that having a teacher with real fighting experience is a must. Those that do not have this experience are not qualified to teach those who wish to really learn to fight. And if a number of the students compete in full contact and gain experience too, and if they do reasonably well, that is a big plus for everyone's learning experience at the school. It probably is not enough for the teacher's teacher to have competed - stuff can get diluted even through 1 generation. And if you have to go back even more generations to find someone who fought and tested the art, then you are definitely on shaky ground.

Who would learn from a wrestling coach who never competed? I'm not saying you'd rip up on his style, but you would definitely look for someone else.

[SifuAbel]

Hey DR,

That was a kicking good site. lots of info.


I think we are on the same page here. Its not really the act of going to competitions thats important rather that the training you get include contact fighting. Because the fact remains the first time you get hit for real is shocking. Most people go fetal. Once a person goes through this initial shock he is (pardon the choice of words) reborn. It is no longer a surprise. And, it is better to first bleed in the school then to bleed in the street. This is where the true crossroad comes, some people quit some people don't.

[norther practitioner]

And, it is better to first bleed in the school then to bleed in the street. This is were the true crossroads comes, some people quit some people don't.
Over all I'd agree, some people need to get a good ass whoopin to get serious into training.. the only other thing that I see that could be bad though is how many schools are looking to not have any blood for liability purposes...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
have to call a spade a spade, you guys are just plain stupid, I just put a sandwich on a plate on the middle of the table in the middle of the room under a bright light.... and you guys are crawling around in the dark corner looking for something to eat..

If you can't even follow something so simple..... Why do you think you are the only person here who believes hard contact is a must to develop accurate fighthing skills? We all know that, and most everybody here seems to know the limitations of their own abilities and training.


Originally posted by lkfmdc
The reality is quite simple, so called "traditional kung fu" people can't fight. They feel impotent, woefully incapable and worthless, thus they have to try and find excuses and cover their rear ends. Thus, when they look at REAL fighting, ie San Shou, they have to find ways to explain why they don't last 30 seconds....

Traditional kung fu guy with "famous" Chinese master to one of my guys are nationals last year; "you hit me once and all I saw was black"... he didn't see black for very long, the whole match was 43 seconds....

now, little children, go back to playing with your tin foil broadswords and make sure you point your finger at that bell from 30 yards so that in 5 years you can make a chicken blow up with your chi blast
Exactly how does this not pertain to you? You teach a Chinese system, from a well-regarded Chinese master, correct? You train with weapons that are not combat ready, right? You teach techniques in your Lama™ classes, such as elbow strikes and Chin Na, etc. which cannot be used in San Shou either because of rules or equipment limitations, correct?

I'm sure you train hard, and I'm sure you train your students hard. But how can you not see the hypocritical implications of what you are saying considering you yourself are a TRADITIONAL KUNG FU INSTRUCTOR?

[Shaolin-Do]

" I have pretty much ignored you, the same way I ignore Catholic Rabbis, Hindu Popes and other people who add "do" to the end of their Chinese arts...."

Oh. now youve attacked shaolin-do. Im hurt...
Or I couldnt give less of a f*ck.
You have the worst attitude any sifu I have ever met. Grow up. You are NOT the sh!t.
But you certainly act like sh!t.

[SifuAbel]

"Exactly how does this not pertain to you? You teach a Chinese system, from a well-regarded Chinese master, correct? You train with weapons that are not combat ready, right? You teach techniques in your Lama™ classes, such as elbow strikes and Chin Na, etc. which cannot be used in San Shou either because of rules or equipment limitations, correct? "


He's kinda' got you there. Perhaps your statement was a bit general and blanket.

[SifuAbel]

"Over all I'd agree, some people need to get a good ass whoopin to get serious into training.. the only other thing that I see that could be bad though is how many schools are looking to not have any blood for liability purposes..."

It was figure of speech. You don't have to gush buckets or anything. But you do have to be able to experience contact.

[norther practitioner]

Oh, Ok... point taken...:D
I'd have to agree 100%

[MasterKiller]

That's what I thought.

[lkfmdc]

Like a traditional kung fu guy in a real fight, Master Killer has taken his beating and is trying to change the subject

Where did I say don't practice elbows and Chin-Na. I'll give you $50 US if you can find ANYWHERE I've said don't train either of those. UP to the challenge CHUMP?

What I said, quite clearly, is that people like you are fairies, you complain that you can't show your real deadly secret weasal dim mak kung fu because of gloves and rules. The reality is that you can't punch your way out of a wet paper bag and can't last a minute in a real FULL CONTACT match, so you ***** about it.

As for tin foil weapons, nope, never held one, Chan Tai San had weapons that were REAL weight and actually SHARP. Many of us have the scars to demonstrate this fact. And, not surprisingly, he trained us to fight FOR REAL

I am sure you idiots know who Adam Hsu is... maybe not with some of the stuff I read here... He noted, CORRECTLY, that most American so called Kung Fu people didn't know JACK about weapons and wanted to start a SPORT of weapon sparring...

The pansies complained about that sport too....

Anyway, he premiered his new weapons, format and rules at an event in Baltimore..... asked around and you'll find out that in 6 hours I wasn't even scored on ONCE....

I know what all your problems are, you lost all faith in your nonsense when the devastatingly effective South American martial Art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitus dominated the UFC and kung fu was represented by the like of Thomas Ramirez....

[MasterKiller]

Where did I say don't practice elbows and Chin-Na. I'll give you $50 US if you can find ANYWHERE I've said don't train either of those. UP to the challenge CHUMP?You didn't. But do you use Elbows and Chin Na at full speed when you train now?


What I said, quite clearly, is that people like you are fairies, you complain that you can't show your real deadly secret weasal dim mak kung fu because of gloves and rules. The reality is that you can't punch your way out of a wet paper bag and can't last a minute in a real FULL CONTACT match, so you ***** about it. I never said anything about secret weasel dim mak. I said putting on gloves takes away your ability to do certain technqiues. How much time do you spend training Chin na in class? How many of those techniques have you used in a San Shou match?


As for tin foil weapons, nope, never held one, Chan Tai San had weapons that were REAL weight and actually SHARP. Many of us have the scars to demonstrate this fact. And, not surprisingly, he trained us to fight FOR REAL I'm sure your teacher did train you this way. The question is, what kind of weapons are YOU training YOUR students with? Are they live? Combat weight? Of do you start them out with a wooden one, or perhaps a spring-steel one, until they get the hang of it?

I do know who Adam Hsu is, and I have a lot of respect for what he says.

YOU are the one dodging the truth. The fact is, you are exactly what you rail against on here--A traditional martial artists, taught in secret by a world reknowed master.

Why can't you ever answer my questions?

[lkfmdc]

Kung Fu people need to wake the F up and smell the friggin coffee...

Do you know what a SUBMISSION grappling contest is? Oh, wait, that has RULES, so no you probably don't...

Two guys, see if you can follow this, FIGHT, ie they attack and they resist and it is live. Here's the GREAT PART, which you might want to re-read a few times until it sinks in, I can JOINT LOCK a wrist, an elbow, a shoulder, an ankle, a knee, a hip, etc

I get to apply pressure until A) they give up or B) if they don't give up it goes POP and I break it.... most people settle for giving up but there are always exceptions

Oh, yeah, I can ALSO CHOKE, either they A) give up or B) go to sleep...

Now, since I've trained guys who have won at matches such as these, teh answer it clearly that we know how to apply CHIN NA in a realistic setting.

So those keeping score, we are the ones FIGHTING, not the ones on the side lines b i t c h i n g....

[Chang Style Novice]

lkmdfceiyuflksdhgol

No one doubts your ability to fight. I'm beginning to doubt your ability to give a straight answer, though.

[MasterKiller]

Are you, or are you not, a Kung Fu instructor?

Do you, or do you not, teach a traditional Chinese martial art?

Answer the question. PLease. For once. Just answer the question.

[lkfmdc]

You are really dillusional here. I guess when all else fails, just mangle reality to suit your tastes. Yeah, I can fight and my students can fight, so we MUST be traditional kung fu people. My g-d, I'm gonna call you Cleopatra, because you are queen of denial....

I am not in any way a traditional kung fu instructor, I don't teach forms, I don't teach weapons that no longer have application in the 21st century. I don't wear a uniform at work, I don't teach in a foreign language. I don't worry about "deadly" techniques that you can't actually practice live.... cause they will never happen. I am a SAN SHOU instructor.... but all of you here fail to understand even what that means.

Let's go back to something I said earlier. Was the civil war a real war? answer for the slow; YES. Did people die in it? YES. Was it fought with real weapons and real military tactics that were RELEVANT AT THE TIME? yes.....

But when we go to Gettysburg today and see people dressed up like confederate soldiers and re-enacting the battle, do you think they are real soldiers?

Is a civil war re-enactment where you turn for your cutting edge military technology?

Get a dictionionary out and look up the definition of antiquarianism... I may have mis-spelled it, but it's close, you'll find it

Anyone ever seen our san shou book?

"San Shou" wait for the subtitle folks

"MODERN application of traditional Chinese martial art skills"

But I am 100% sure you still won't get this, I mean, you didn't even understand it was my school I was talking about

[MasterKiller]

You don't wear a uniform?

You don't do weapons that are not applicapble on the street?

You don't teach in a different language? What does Lama™ stand for, then? Or San Shou? And where on your Lama™ site does it say that Lama™ is not kung fu?

Lookie, lookie:

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-2.htm
http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-3.htm

Apparently, you don't say no to twinkies, either:
http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_ross_gallery-4.htm

[ShaolinTiger00]

Where's your pic MK?

[lkfmdc]

Master Killer, let's be direct, you are a loser and a wanna be. Currently, I am around 184 lbs, anyone can come on down any time they want and see what sort of shape I am in. I workout 6 days a week, I spar with ALL my students. Suffice to say, I'd punt your sorry arse across the street for the extra point.

Seems we teach in ENGLISH, that's what language everyone here speaks. Jab, cross, hook, leg kick, knee, yep all ENGLISH

You're sad and pathetic, making a huge deal out of 2 pictures out of all of them I was in a uniform, for a MAGAZINE SHOOT.... maybe you're just jealous I"ve been in IKF more than 20 times and you? Didn't think so...

yep... here's Chan tai San's standard uniform

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_15.jpg

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_19.jpg

And that pic is like 20 plus years old btw

[MasterKiller]

Whay would IKF run 20 articles on someone who didn't teach Kung Fu?

[lkfmdc]

Since it's picture time

My fighters at the San Shou nationals, notice all the GOLD MEDALS
http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/nationals1.jpg

What would happen if we ever met
http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/nice2.jpg

me with some of my students
http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/me91002.jpg

[MasterKiller]

I have no doubt your San Shou team is top-notch. Last picture still looks like you eat too many twinkies.

[LiteBlu]

LOL @ Masturbator Killer. Please stop trolling. You are being called out and yet you persist in playing cyber warrior, in the cyber ring, using his cyber dim mak.

[lkfmdc]

He talks so tough from behind his keyboard, what a pathetic loser. Notice you don't have a picture up? Probably a real bad case of pimples...

Dude, I'd beat the day lights out of your sorry arse. I'm a lot more than "2 and 1 in street fights"

Go back to downloading your g a y p o r n and leading your "secret life".... has your wife seen those "special magazines" you have hidden in the closet?

[MasterKiller]

All I'm doing is pointing out that lkfmdc does exactly what a traditional martial arts instructor is supposed to do, and in fact, that he himself lays claim to a lineage and style that is comparable to all the Chinese styles he professes are useless.

All he does is keep proving my point.

He was trained by a well-respected Chinese master.

He teaches 500 people Kung Fu.

He has been in Inside Kung Fu Magazine (he hates people in magazines, remember?).

He teaches Chin Na and Elbow strikes, some of which he does not and cannot use in the ring due to rules and equipment limitations.

Yet he repeatedly bashes people who are exactly like him. I find it hard to believe that someone with his HUGE ego would hate himself, but, every time he opens his mouth and bashes TCMA, all he is doing is pointing a finger right back in his own face.

So far, his only defense has been calling me names and making threats.

[lkfmdc]

You are such a moron it's funny....

I don't teach forms, weapons, chi kung, flying weasal claws, chi blasts that kill chickens at 30 yards etc.

I don't teach kung fu. I teach SAN SHOU. I teach 500 people San Shou, and because I teach them san shou, pretty much most of them could kick your pansy ass...

- "he hates people in magazines, remember?" -

Stop making crap up. $50 if you can find me saying that. I notice you didn't take up the other challenge....

Don't get your panties in a wad, no one is going to beat your little fairy arse up, frankly you are too amusing for that....

[BAI HE]

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/david_20.jpg

Check out the boombox in the backround! I had that box in the 80's! Is it that classic Sony?!!!

[SifuAbel]

.........Uh, back up here chief. Forget the uniforms or the language, you don't teach people the things your teacher taught you? In the time Ventura was at our school he seemed that he came from a rather tradition FIGHTING kung fu school. Where every aspect of what his teacher taught him was important. Your students don't learn any form work? They get your knowlegde piecemeal? I don't get it.

Then are you saying that the arts that you learned are not valid? That your forms are filled with things you can't apply?


"I don't teach........................................... flying weasal claws, chi blasts that kill chickens at 30 yards etc."

I don't either.

[lkfmdc]

Sifu Abel, I don't think you are a clueless wannabe like some people so take this post as it is intended, a direct answer with no hidden strings

NO, I do not teach forms. I find them an outdated, inefficient and for the most part pointless exercise. If I want you to practice a combination I have you do it on something that has IMPACT. A heavy bag, a focus mitt, a Thai pad, a kicking shield. Or just straight up with another person. If want to teach you a new technique, I teach it to you, I don't have you learn a new 60 movement sequence so that you can learn two new things.

I no longer teach weapons. Heavy hacking blades made sense for Knights in armor, rapier fencing made sense for Renaissance men in citites, ..... short sticks, knives, chains and improvised weapons make sense for men in 21st century North American cities.... not Kwan Do

I don't teach Lion Dancing. I don't teach Chi-Kung (though actually I have nothing against Chi-Kung, just currently we don't). We don't wear uniforms, we don't use Chinese terminology.

My classes are either working with equipment, working with a person or SPARRING. That's all.

That is SAN SHOU, not traditional kung fu, and in case some have not realized, Chan Tai San was a San Shou instructor in the PLA for most of his life....

Where does the technique come from? Everywhere, anywhere and no where.....

[MasterKiller]

actually I have nothing against Chi-Kung, just currently we don't Do you believe in Qi? If not, what value could qigong practice have?

[BAI HE]

LKFMDC-

Lk -
So you think traditional training has no place in
mordern sport fighting or grappling? Is that why you don't
train traditionally anymore?

[lkfmdc]

I keep going back to the war anaology.... no one went into the Vietnam conflict expecting it to be just like the civil war, or even the Korean war.

Armies are constantly being trained differently and with different weapons and technology. Those that don't are doomed to failure.

Woody Allen has a quote, in regards to relationships, in a lot of ways it sums up today's sad state of so called "kung fu"


- relationships are like sharks, they have to move forward in order to survive. So what do I think? Think about this relationship? I think we've got a very dead shark here" -

[BAI HE]

Guys like Tim Cartmell managed to
blend Traditional and sport fighting
with good results.

I guess I'm more interested in how you dismiss the value
of traditional training. There is alot of good stuff there, that
I think had a lot to do with your development. Lama probably
gave you a great base to start with.

Good balance and body feel, sharp reflexes etc...

[SifuAbel]

"Where does the technique come from? Everywhere, anywhere and no where....."

No, the technique comes from you. You and the knowlegde you gained through your training.

I also am not trying to irritate so don't take this as an attack.

The lion dancing, the uniforms, the terminology, even the chi gung(although it would be a definate advantage) I can understand.

On the issue of the form work , however, I will have to disagree with you. I always found the lessons in the weapon work very valuable in handling other objects as well as translating those physical lessons to emptyhand.

We do the all same work you do now"...IMPACT. A heavy bag, a focus mitt, a Thai pad, a kicking shield. Or just straight up with another person.", as well as form work. I, personally, feel incomplete without it. I think you are doing your students a disservice by not teaching them. Form work gives a very solid foundation to the student.

"I don't have you learn a new 60 movement sequence so that you can learn two new things."

This just seems like a matter of time managment. Learning the two new things and learning the 60 move form don't have to happen all at once.

You're making it sound like the other 58 moves in your form are not applicable or valid. You're making it sound like only 10% of what you know works. I'm sure this is not what you're trying to say. I'm sure you can apply quite a bit of your form work.

The techniques do come from somewhere.

[lkfmdc]

Sifu Abel, you just missed my joke with the technique thing. Or perhaps the point that everyone here is missing. People bash San Shou, but they really just show ignorance.

Tai Chi cloud hands can be used very effectively to catch kicks. But we don't bother doing the form, learning that "traditional" way. We face off, throw the kicks and learn how to catch them. Technique comes from some place, and sometimes from a non Chinese place as well. War is about winning, not worrying where the weapon came from.

I did literally HUNDREDS of empty hand sets and even more weapons most likely. I've been teaching now for close to 20 years. I've come to the definite conclusion they are a waste of time. You don't have to agree with me, it's still a free country. But I feel that fact that I've done real forms, done them well (I took 4th in the nation at NACMAF) I think my opinion has weight.

aw, crap, have to take care of something, more fun later

[fa_jing]

If he means that he's dispensed with stupid "tests" of a student's dedication, where they have to learn moves from the next guy up instead of a teacher, or have to learn a form by watching, or have to learn the whole form before being explained what the moves and intention are for, then more power to him. If he means that he only teaches those pieces of the form (seperately) that are applicable to San Shou and that that is all that his students desire to learn, than more power to him.

However, I don't dig a blanket anti-traditionalist attitude and I remember Mr. lkfmdc telling me that I wouldn't be able to use a lop sao (grab) in a streetfight, since we only free-spar with big boxing gloves on in our kwoon. I disagreed with that one.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
But I feel that fact that I've done real forms, done them well (I took 4th in the nation at NACMAF) I think my opinion has weight.


I don't want to get into a credentials war with you. I've done my 20 years plus , I've given my pound of flesh in fighting and I've won major tournaments with real forms( won the Lee kune hung internatioanl in 94 and took 3rd in 96. ), I've lost track of how many I've won. So I'm not exactly what you would call a "lightweight".

[No_Know]

Such loss seems very great. lkfmdc's thinking has to be allowed even if not agreed with because the person who could say no has to go along with it, lkfmdc's teacher. I have to respect how the student teaches, because I have to respect the teacher.

I think that getting the tecnique from experience limits the students in that they might only ba able to come-up with techniques for things they experience. And when undone experiences, the real fight not just Ring, they would wait or not move because they have no experience with it. And that can be a painful education or worse. It doesn't hurt at all...anymore.

It would be nice if the Right techniques would just Come appropriately (without the database of seemingly pointless forms with movement logic that pays off in situations not foreseen...)

lkfmdc If it matters to you I hope the propagation of Lama P'ai goes well from your teachings and those of your fellow students of your good teacher. May your teacher be well.

[lkfmdc]

Sifu Abel, I know sometimes things are misunderstood, but at what point did you think I said to you "but YOUR FORMS SUCK"? Cause I don't remember saying that?

I simply stated that I have had a hell of a lot of experience, and certainly know forms as well as anyone, and that my experience has been that they no longer serve a functional purpose. I think that the ability of my students in many different fighting formats shows that to be true...

Chinese martial arts types are so irrationally tied to their forms, many of which are nothing more than recent innovations anyway. I hold no spoecial religious sort of reverance for Lama forms because I know for a fact most are less than 100 years old anyway....

Shuai Jiao is about as real and traditional a Chinese martial art as you get, yet is devoid of the form tradition.

My teacher is obscure here in the US, but most know Chang Tung-Sheng. Much like me, and my teacher, Chang Tung Sheng also scoffed at so many so called fighters and their complaints.

People seem to forget his open challenge for anyone to use Dim Mak/Dim Hsueh on him in a real fight, he said no one ever took him up on the offer, only Cheng Man Cheng grumbled about him....

My attitudes are very much in line with my teacher's who thought most Chinese martial art was so much crap and said so frequently...

[rogue]

Chinese martial arts types are so irrationally tied to their forms, many of which are nothing more than recent innovations anyway. Not just Chinese martial artists. I enjoy kata, but when it comes to actually learning a technique, a pressure point or anything else to do with fighting you need a person to work with. I won't go into the excercises that are more harmful than helpful.

[SifuAbel]

Actually I was responding to the last line of your post that your opinion has "weight". Well, in response, so does mine. So we'll agree to disagree on this issue.

[fa_jing]

Shuai Jiao has short forms. Besides which, GM Chang and his students AFAIK also practiced other arts where they practiced forms.

If you are not going to use long forms, then I hope your students do plenty of shadow boxing, visualization, and exercises to relax the body and improve flow, in order to cover these bases.

[truewrestler]

forms do not = shadow boxing, acheive the same thing, nor used for the same purpose

[fa_jing]

Really? how much do you know about forms? I'm thinking of the wingchun dummy form in particular, but all forms can be broken down for their fighting moves. Do you think you just practice the whole form from beginning to end every time like some kind of show dance?

[truewrestler]

Please explain forms in WC. I worked on one for my yellow belt in the Karate club in college and yes, it was a predetermined set of moves that we learned...basically dancing with punches, kicks, blocks, etc. We learned and talked about the techniques in the form and if I had continue I would have learned many more forms.

Anyways... please explain the difference. I see "all forms can be broken down for their fighting moves" and think you don't know what shadow boxing is :)

[SifuAbel]

"I worked on one for my yellow belt in the Karate club in college"

'Nuff said.

[Marky]

Hi Truewrestler,


"forms do not = shadow boxing, acheive the same thing, nor used for the same purpose"

Agreed. In regard to the wing chun dummy form, one of its uses is to train explosive power and body unity, much like shadow boxing (though boxers are likely to call them different things). However, shadow boxing provides an "aliveness" that NO form can match (due to the very definition of a form). Forms have their purpose, and so does shadow boxing. Some of those purposes can overlap at times, and many of them don't.

[Marky]

P.S.

"However, shadow boxing provides an "aliveness" that NO form can match (due to the very definition of a form)." Me

I didn't add this to imply you didn't know it already, I just mis-stated my opinion as a fact. I don't want you to take it as a sign of disrespect. Though you probably wouldn't have, I figure better safe than sorry, I have enough enemies in real life without adding digital associates.

[Laughing Cow]

In my kwoon we do the form ONCE per session.

Rest of the time is spend on working a specific movement/posture, corrections or in drills & 2-man work.

Forms won't give you Fa-jing, Chin-Na, Silk reeling and similar, but if those are trained and combined with what was learned from the forms it changes everything.

Cheers.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"I worked on one for my yellow belt in the Karate club in college"

'Nuff said. ...and your comment is supposed to mean what? I was simply giving him a point of reference to my experience with forms. I forgot to mention that I've seen some on ESPN too.

Shadow boxing is just that... boxing with your shadow...boxing with yourself, your mind. I have much more time shadow wrestling than shadow boxing and the idea is the same. You don't "learn" to shadow box... it doesn't teach you techniques... it is conditioning, improvisation and thinking about what to expect and how to react. It is conditioning for your body and mind.

For wrestling it is especially useful since you don't need a partner. In boxing it is different than bag or pad work because the bag is an inanimate object but your mind is... well, alive. I often wrestle or fight in my head. Visualizing what might happen to me, what I would do, etc.... great for bus rides to matches. Shadow wrestling and boxing are visualization in combination with movement.

Do any of you guys do shadow boxing/fighting?

(edit: just wanted to add that I think I ate some shrooms before posting this)

[Marky]

"Do any of you guys do shadow boxing/fighting?"

I do. I just don't wear gloves while I'm shadow boxing.

[SifuAbel]

"I forgot to mention that I've seen some on ESPN too."

uh huh........ yeah

[truewrestler]

...and your comment is supposed to mean what? I was simply giving him a point of reference to my experience with forms.

[SifuAbel]

right....... yeah........... nuff said.

[truewrestler]

I asked a ****ing question about how WC forms are different than I have experienced forms to be in the past.

Stop busting my balls b!tch

[SifuAbel]

Yeah the one form back in college for yellow belt and the stuff you saw on espn US open .

Right..........gotcha..........yeah

[truewrestler]

thanks for understanding... are you having a good weekend? I just saw American Wedding with my girl friend. Funny movie... Stiffler eating dog poo was hilarious. I think I heard a few people puking

[SifuAbel]

uh huh......yeah.........right

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel



Not accepting excuses goes beyond style. Enforcing BJJ is another issue altogether.

As far as you in a skirt, that visual will haunt my nightmares for years!!! :D


Ap and a few other of the DC guys have seen him in a skirt. From what I hear, he doesn't look that bad...

:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
As a matter of perspective, you must realize that many TMA schools have gone the way of family oriented training. Lets face it, hardcore fighter schools don't have huge amounts of people in them. And if there is a hardcore school that does have a lot of students, it has then succeeded in tapping the majority, if not the entirety, of the avaiable local market. Family oriented schools are not interested in producing someone to face Royce. They are happy if the student can get away from crack head bob. As far as the kids go, mommy jane is more pleased with little timmy if he blocks but DOESN'T hit back if he doesn't need to.
Blame it on the money.

I know this is the exception, not the rule, but one of the biggest schools in this state AFAIK anyway, is a mma school.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"Well, that's the way it is, but not the way it needs to be."

True, but thats the way it is.

Depending on the area, you might get a few hardcore schools with large amounts of people. But even in those schools not everyone is a superstar or even good for that matter.

Perspective is a funny thing, there are really no absolutes. I have met and trained with people from both sides of the spectrum from many arts. Some good, some bad, either way its their teachers and their training time I compliment or critique, not their styles.

LOL, I guess I shoulda looked I the next page before I made my last post. :D I'm just playing catch up in this thread.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


You would think.

The thing is I agree that CMA should be considered a fighter's art even if you don't train to fight in the competitive world. lkfmc's intentions may be good, but not everyone is able to train to fight competitvely. Some aren't willing to give up lucrative jobs for the training comitment involved. Some aren't talented or physically gifted enough. Should the martial arts exclude them? Should they not be allowed to train for the off chance that they are mugged and forced to defend themselves? Are they less of a martial artist? I don't think so.

you don't have to train full time to compete at a local/regional level. The main idea here is to do SOMETHING. even if you are just competing in local smokers, do something. you can't really be considered a fighter if you've never actually fought... It would make you more of a fight theorist, for lack of a better term.

[TjD]

Originally posted by truewrestler
I asked a ****ing question about how WC forms are different than I have experienced forms to be in the past.

Stop busting my balls b!tch

well i wont bust your balls and i'll answer your question :)

WC forms for the most part do NOT teach techniques you'd use in a fight. However, they DO teach body mechanics you WILL use in a fight. Once you know the body mechanics, you can use whatever fist/elbow/hand you want onto them and they'll work just fine.

Thats why good wing chun schools train a lot of chi sau and sparring. The free-hand forms show you how to use your body correctly, then through practice with a live human being (chi sau, sparring and drills), you learn how to apply those body mechanics correctly. The chi sau, sparring and drills improve your knowledge of the body mechanics, so in turn you can apply this to your forms and improve them, which further ingrains these improved body mechanics to make them more natural, relaxed and more of a reflex. This further improves your chi sau and sparring, which improve your forms, so on and so on.

The wooden dummy has the added benefit of giving you something which you can really test your power on. In many ways it's extremely similar to a punching bag, except it gives you more angles to hit at and test your body mechanics, unity and power.

The forms have use, because they give you a good training tool that you can do on your own, because you don't always have a partner to train with. While they are no substitute for a good training partner, they can be used to improve your skills when used in conjunction with one.

I don't know if this is different than the forms you have experience in the past, but to my knowledge that is part of the role of the three hand forms and the wooden dummy in the WC system; at least in this context.

[fa_jing]

Hi TW. I didn't get back on the internet for the rest of the weekend, I'd like to give you my take on it. SifuAbel is correct, you don't know much about forms. You (and many TMA students for that matter) seem to still think that they have the main purpose of demonstration. Example:your yellow belt kata - used for demonstration for your belt test. That stuff on ESPN - used for demonstration to an audience. That is not true. Their main purpose is for training for combat, if you study traditional kung fu for the traditional aim of combat (in other words not wushu). This is acheived in a number of different ways. Different styles have different forms with different purposes, but some things are common across styles. One is that you must visualize the attacks that you are responding too. Just like in shadowboxing. Two is that you try to achieve a flow similar to what it would be against a real attack, again not what necessarily looks good to others. Three is that you can and should break the form down into pieces, like you would really apply the moves - 2 or 3 moves at a time AT MOST. You drill these pieces repeatedly by themselves. These are your combinations in CMA. You pay attention to structure, fluidity, correct power generation, etc. I am all for doing unstructured shadow boxing as well - but popping in those combinations that come from your forms, based on your visualization of random attacks. Additionally you may find that you've developed techniques and combinations that are not a part of your forms, these should play a part in your shadowboxing as well. Be master of your style, not a slave to it.

Now as for Wing Chun, which is something that I can speak to from more experience, we only have 6 forms and they have very distinct purposes:

1st form: Sil Lum Tao - this is zhan zhuang (standing post) training with no footwork - some sections are performed very slowly - this is to relax the shoulders and work the stance. Other sections are performed rapidly - to teach combat techniques individually, power generation and some combos. The pigeon-toed stance that we stand in throughout the form strengthens the knees and trains you to compress at the hips

2nd form: Chum Kil - Drills basic stepping and turning footwork, power generation for kicks and punches in conjuction with same. Also contains many fighting techniques and combinations.

These are the 2 forms that I studied in 3+ years. Not a lot, eh? But very useful. You wanna know why I only learned two forms? Because we were busy learning drills, san sik (free hand exercises) training, seperate techniques, working out with pads, sparring, etc. I also studied JKD to a lesser extent with the same teacher. We spent time learning takedowns and basic groundfighting. There's only so much time. We did very little chi sao, my teacher didn't favor it. But if we had more time, we would do more of this too.

Next comes Bil Gee: more techniques, recovery situations where you've lost your centerline, or where you've lost your balance.

Wooden Man: I only had 6 months instruction - but this is purely combos and power generation, stepping around someone, footwork. Again, visualization is key if you ever want to apply your skills to an opponent. The wooden man's arms are the opponent's, but sometimes you are visualizing the left arm as the left arm, and sometimes you are visualizing it as the right arm. This gives you more possibilities. There are three arms and a leg on the wooden man. There are between 108-124 techniques that are practiced on the wooden man in Wing Chun, depending on your lineage. At first, you practice them in a particular order. But once you have them down, you also practice the movements in a completely unrehearsed fashion. In other words, you shadow box with the wooden man, using the techniques in your arsenal.

Long Pole: used to build strength, structure, and power generation. I got some work in but never learned the form

Double knives: pure extension of the WC hand techniques and footwork, with minor modifications. This is the quintessential Wing Chun weapon. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the knife work was developed before the empty-hand work. Regardless, the knife work and the empty-hand work complement each other greatly. Again I never learned the form, but I got some work in.

[truewrestler]

Wow, thanks for your feedback guys! It will take me a little while to read and respond...trying to get some stuff done at work. I just want to mention that instead of saying "I have no experience with forms" I gave information about what little experience I had with forms in Karate.... then I felt like i got flamed and it upset me.

Anyways.... thanks TjD and fa_jing for acting more mature than SifuAbel and I, and for answering my question.

[SifuAbel]

TW,
uh huh.........right.........yeah







Fa-jing,
Good post fa jing.

[TjD]

fa_jing,
does your school use/emphasize combos? as far as i knew, combo's were quite un-wing chun.


as to biu jee and the knife forms:

Biu jee really isn't a recovery form at all. it teaches you how to "break the rules." By being a little less rigid with all the body mechanics and rules you learned in siu lim tau and chum kiu, you can really crank the WC power generation into high gear. it's just improving and refining upon the body mechanics that were already there in SLT and chum kiu.

If the butterfly swords are the quintessential WC weapon, then the knife form is quintessential WC. Every step and motion in the knife form strengthens some body mechanic you learned in the previous forms, in a much more mobile way than the wooden dummy. It shows you how to move quickly, while still retaining that all important root.


i agree with your observations on "freestyling" on the wooden dummy. it's can be a very good training tool once you know what you're doing.

[fa_jing]

Heck yeah, we emphasize combos. Especially, the "1-2" with vertical fists. But here are some other combos that you might find familiar:

From SLT: pak sao + palm strike. Bon to Tan. Hsuen sao to palm strike. Jut sao to top-wrist. Tan to Gan. Etc.

From Chum Kil: Triple palm strike. Bon sao to rising punch (directly applicable in three ways). Lan sao with punch over or kick under. Etc.

Obviously there are alot more combos in the wooden man form and san sik exercises, and partner drills. The running hands drill is a combo. So are all of the lop sao variations. What'd you think I was talking about, Jab Cross Hook? ;) Actually we practiced that too, but not as part of Wing Chun training. But any time you practice two or three techniques together in a particular order, that is a combo. Here's an example from another style I studied: Drop to a horse stance, side facing, while throwing a lead horizontal fist. Move to a bow stance while throwing a rising vertical fist punch. That's it. I've pulled this move off many times, since I happen to like it, against a variety of sparring partners.

All Wing Chun emphasizes combos. Our structure and strategy doesn't lend itself to one-punch-kill scenarios, so usually it takes 2 or 3 consecutive hits to put the other guy down.

I defer to your knowledge regarding the Bil Gee and Knife forms.

[TjD]

Originally posted by fa_jing
All Wing Chun emphasizes combos. Our structure and strategy doesn't lend itself to one-punch-kill scenarios, so usually it takes 2 or 3 consecutive hits to put the other guy down.

wha?!? our structure and strategy DEFINATELY lead to 1 punch kill scenarios. wing chun has some tremendously powerful strikes, more than enough to KO on the first shot if you do 'em right. one WC strategy is to finish the fight as quickly as possible. a one hit KO is pretty **** quick if you ask me :D

what you described in SLT as combo's i don't think are combos. you're going from one hand position to another.

for example, in SLT theres a bong -> tan -> palm strike. in application, you do the bong first then depending on what energy you're receiving you have quite a few options at your disposal. good wing chun (through chi sau) picks the correct one at that time. you don't say to your self "ok self, i'm going to bong, tan, palm strike now." you play it as it goes.

[mysteri]

[i]
All Wing Chun emphasizes combos. Our structure and strategy doesn't lend itself to one-punch-kill scenarios, so usually it takes 2 or 3 consecutive hits to put the other guy down.
[/B]

what does "one-inch punch" teach? from seein the famous bruce lee demonstration on the TKD champion from many years ago on film, i would imagine that w/ the right timin and reflex, if that punch slipped through to the jaw ONE time, that'd be all she wrote! i don't study WC, but when we used to share a school w/ a WC master(who was also a student of yip man), he teaches an agressive stlye of WC that i KNOW would knock someone out quick. as a matter of fact, he's currently puttin trainin a team of fighters for the chinese gov't to go over to thailand to fight the thai fighters!(i watched one of his students pummel a local thai champion some years back). all that bein said to reiterate the fact that "one-punch, one-kill" doesn't seem to be absent in WC, or maybe dependin on who u learn it from as u may divide power a lil differently. jus my thoughts...

[fa_jing]

Have you ever knocked out someone with one punch? It's not easy. Any punch can get lucky and end the fight but more than likely you will have to land multiple blows. That's why continuous attack is so important in Wing Chun. That's why we practice chain punching and perhaps more importantly, Three-arrow punching. For those who don't know, this is a high-high-middle-low-low-middle-(repeat) punching pattern, practiced at many repititions and a high speed that we use to punch rapidly to various targets. Very important as well, are combinations such as punch + punch - he backs up, step up front thrust kick, punch + punch etc.

You'll notice that I didn't say, bon --> tan --> palm strike, because I've never used that sequence in a realistic situation and I don't practice that as part of shadow-boxing. However just bon-->tan is more likely for me. I think you have to include all movements that set up strikes as part of combos, and I mean in the sense that we are discussing what one would practice while shadow-boxing or the equivalent. For a boxer, they do alot more than just punch - they duck, cover, weave, pat away shots, roll their shoulders etc along with their flurries, jabs and power shots. They train their footwork and movement. For us there is more defensive hand movement and the stepping is a little different. Do you WC guys take your moves from the forms and drills and combine them in an unrehearsed manner versus visualized attacks? You should, and you should take a page out of Western Boxing and set a timer for 3 minute rounds.

FWIW, "Inch power" is pretty hard to pull off against a moving target. I prefer "5-inch" power or "12-inch" power.

[fa_jing]

BTW, I didn't mean that the 3-arrow punching was a set pattern, just that it teaches you to punch opportunistically to multiple heights of targets on your opponent. The ability to take advantage of this is developed further by drills that combine this principle with some trapping hands. Usually if you can, you trap with your free hand while you strike, then punch with the hand that was trapping while trapping with the other, etc. However there are certain situations where it is more expeditious to simply punch, with the fists returning to a raised neutral position after each punch.

[TjD]

if your one punch isn't strong to knock a person out, a bunch of them in rapid succession aren't very likely to either.

if you watch boxers, it's not 3 quick blows to the head that puts someone on the ground, it's that one good shot that got in.

i've come VERY close to being knocked out on a few occasions in the light sparring we do. no gloves, about 30-50% power (not because we're ballsy, but because we're poor - gloves cost $$ :D ). likewise, i've come close to knocking people out as well. no blackouts, but sifu stepping in the middle and saying "ok you need to take a rest and shake that off." Theres no doubt in my mind that if we were going full blast our shots could knock someone out. None of these were due to anything resembling chain punches but rather good sensitivity from chi sau setting up good clean powerful strikes.

[shaolinboxer]

Concussions are cumulative.

[fa_jing]

In my experience you don't have enough control over the opponent to throw that knockout punch unless you've hit them already. Also, except for Mike Tyson's opponents, you will see that alot of fighters drop after combos. The thing about hitting someone multiple times in rapid succession, is that you bounce their brain around and also prevent them from fading properly to absorb the damage. I believe that "combos" or a reasonable facsimile thereof are the way to go and the way to practice. Besides which, the first punch often doesn't land, but opens the door for the second punch. Or your punch may open the door for your kick.

Anyway, I've been concussed three times in Martial arts. The first time was a single shot and the other two were results of combinations.

Mostly we are differing on terminology, although I see you have a somewhat different approach. Always good to hear someone else's point of view.

[TjD]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Mostly we are differing on terminology, although I see you have a somewhat different approach. Always good to hear someone else's point of view.

indeed, best luck to your WC training :D

[fa_jing]

TJD: {hooks} they flow real nice after a low shot then have the same hand come up and around with a hook.

Sound familiar? Hey that's more or less how I got my second concussion.

:D -- good luck to you too

shaolinboxer: Did you mean in the long term? I know, and will be trying way harder in the future to avoid these.

[TjD]

Originally posted by fa_jing
TJD: {hooks} they flow real nice after a low shot then have the same hand come up and around with a hook.

Sound familiar? Hey that's more or less how I got my second concussion.


laugh!

i do that >ALL< the time. they flow **** well. i've given and taken a bunch of those :D the worst is when you take one behind the ear. that will put you on your ass.

in all honesty, the times i or someone i've been with has come close to KO, it could partially have been from the few hits before hand. but from my memory, it was always that one good hit that really made the difference. however, how trustworthy is a memory that was almost ktfo? :)

either way, if any of those good hits had been followed up with another good one the fight would have been over. i guess i don't like to use the terminology "combo" because i prefer to be more spontaneous and not to be stuck in one set pattern (and thats what combo makes me think of).

[fa_jing]

Fair enough! Cheers. :D

[mysteri]

hey fa jing

i wasn't disputin the fact that combination punches will do the trick, i jus wanted to point out the sometimes one punch is enough.

years ago around here, a famous local japanese karate master held tournaments for years around here(he was known as a good fighter and particularly known for his hard trainin style). well one day while a local WC sifu(the one who i mentioned studied w/ YM) happened to comment that "the WC punch had no power". and when the WC master caught wind of this, he went on the stage in the middle of the tournament, grabbed the mike and said,"HOMATA! U COME UP HERE RIGHT NOW! I'LL SHOW U THE WC PUNCH!" and so he continued to taunt him to come up to the ring in front of everyone but the man never did(i think he later found out about that guys reputation.) but he never ran a tournament around here again and has avoided that man till this day. does that prove anything? no, but fun story :D

[fa_jing]

LOL, love those kind of stories. Wish I could have been there, OTOH I'm glad no one was hurt over something so stupid.