Learn something new every day

[ursa major]

I re-viewed some of my WHF books and Lee Kam Wing books. Threw a video of Sifu Brendan Lai in the machine and traced his steps one frame at a time through Bung Bo and then Monkey Steals Peach. I am looking for nothing and everything. After replaying the form Steals Peaches several times I noticed Sifu Lai does something very interesting.

In (7 Star) Monkey Steals Peach we do a right kick with simultaneous right hook punch, twice. In the first case we do so combining a left mantis hook and left kick followed by jump off the right then making the right kick with right hook punch. In the second case we are turning 180 degrees (to left) out of a right hill climbing stance making left mantis hook followed by right kick and right hook punch.

Now I was taught that in each case the right hook punch attacks laterally from right to left originating from the waist and immediately lifting to shoulder height for the strike. This is how Sifu Lai does the hook in the first case.

It was the second case that caught my attention -- as Sifu Lai makes the turn with the left mantis hook, rather than returning the right fist to ready position (as in the first case) he lets the right arm drop to his right side (it almost looks paralyzed hanging downwards) where it drags behind his right kicking leg by a fraction of a second and as the kick unloads his right arm follows not on a lateral or horizontal path but a split second behind the leg and on a vertical path hooking upwards. This is a much shorter strike than the first case. Very stealthy, I like it.

So why is this a revelation ? Well IMO it completely changes the technique and it is clear from Sifu Lai's example that these are not necessarily repeats as I was taught. In fact I am already working on new applications as per Sifu Lai's example and plan on incorporating his method into my version of the form.

So there you have it I learned something new today and you know this happens everytime I take a closer look at 7 Star which makes PM very, very cool... IMO.

Regards,
UM.

[tanglang]

... which movement you mean and if you perform the form in the same way, that we do.. but I understood which was the second movement turning 180 degrees around.. I think again followed by a movement a bit different to what we are used to ..?
Our version of the ba yuen tao to is: turning 180 degrees around, pulling an imagined right arm( of the opponent) to performers right side with force ( diagonally) first grabbing, then closing both hands to a fist in the form while simultaneously stepping in with left standing leg and kick with right leg sab tsi toi = cross-kick and hit with the upper side of the foot to the genitales, for example- I can also imagine a kick comming more from the side, not from downwards up -with the whole shin( because of close distance )to the stomach or the short rips.. while pulling the opponent into the kick..?
U.M: can you explain the right hook punch again? Is it a right OU=hook and then punch, or is it a hook in the sense of a boxers hook, for example?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by tanglang
[B... U.M: can you explain the right hook punch again? Is it a right OU=hook and then punch, or is it a hook in the sense of a boxers hook, for example? [/B]

Well of course it depends on how you play the form ? I was taught (in both cases) the hook is a roundhouse style punch with fist and palm facing away from you in other words when you contact you can see the back of your fist.

The difference is this -- in the first case the punch occurs on a lateral plane you are clearly attacking from the side and above. In the second case, as per Sifu Lai's example, the roundhouse rises vertically and makes the snap hook at the last and just prior to contact.

About the example you gave, I believe that it comes after the last kick/roundhouse punch at the end of the form. In that technique I play it similarily, essentially left and right grabbing, secure and kick to the lower gate. Curious, do you have WHF's book for reference ?


Regards,
UM.

[-N-]

Originally posted by ursa major

In the second case, as per Sifu Lai's example, the roundhouse rises vertically and makes the snap hook at the last and just prior to contact.
ursa major,

This was one of the advanced or finesse methods of doing hook punch as Sifu Lai taught it.

N.

[tanglang]

No, I'm sorry, I don't have yet as they are not easy and not so cheep to become in Germany, but I'll try to get some via e-bay as fast as possible..seems you perform the form totally differnt..:confused: and Steve helped out: I understand now that you mean a huen choi... but still I don't know were you are in the form.. too much differences, I'm sure

[MantisifuFW]

Tanglang,

The White Ape Steals the Peach has two parts in Chu Chi Man's Tanglang. The set that Wong Hon Fun people play is the second half of Chu Chi Man's White Ape Steals the Peach. If you know both halves it is the 9th and the 17th movement of the second half of this set. It is this movement that Ursa Major is refering to in his post.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Originally posted by -N-

ursa major,

This was one of the advanced or finesse methods of doing hook punch as Sifu Lai taught it.

N.

Outstanding -N- this confirms then that it was not a happenstance of the video session itself.

thx,
UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Tanglang,

The White Ape Steals the Peach has two parts in Chu Chi Man's Tanglang. The set that Wong Hon Fun people play is the second half of Chu Chi Man's White Ape Steals the Peach. If you know both halves it is the 9th and the 17th movement of the second half of this set. It is this movement that Ursa Major is refering to in his post.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

Whoa... sorry if I sound like a dummy but... do you mean we have a 1st and 2nd set of Ape Steals the Peach in 7 Star ?!?! Are there any pics of these online ?
thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by ursa major


Whoa... sorry if I sound like a dummy but... do you mean we have a 1st and 2nd set of Ape Steals the Peach in 7 Star ?!?! Are there any pics of these online ? My curiousity is overwhelming me !

thx in advance,
UM.

In the WHF lineage, there is one set called "White Ape Steals the Peach". It is the CCM lineage that has 1st and 2nd roads of this form. This particular form does not seem to be present in Mainland China although they do have a form by the same name that resembles very closely to LGY's "Mantis Steals the Peach". I am sure if you search, there are previous threads on this form in this forum.

YM

[-N-]

Originally posted by ursa major
Outstanding -N- this confirms then that it was not a happenstance of the video session itself.
Yes, that hook punch was done that way on purpose. That being said, Sifu Lai was very unhappy with his performance in that video, and I am told there was an agreement to exclude that form from the final compilation. But somehow it remained.

You might look at the follow-up techniques to those two hook punches to get a perspective on any apparent differences. After 1st hook punch is yeung bong. After 2nd hook punch is kwa tung chui.

N.

[German Bai Lung]

I think you guys mean:

ba yuen tao tou kuen AND ba yuen chot dong kuen!
So they are tought as one form "ba yuen tao tou" in the WHF Linage ...

The moves UM describes are found in chiu Chi Mans Ba Yuen Chot Dong Kuen - white Ape leaves the cave...

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
I think you guys mean:

ba yuen tao tou kuen AND ba yuen chot dong kuen!
So they are tought as one form "ba yuen tao tou" in the WHF Linage ...

The moves UM describes are found in chiu Chi Mans Ba Yuen Chot Dong Kuen - white Ape leaves the cave...

German Bai Lung,

Sorry, that is NOT what I meant. "White Ape Steals the Peach" and "White Ape Exits the Cave" are two separate forms in the WHF lineage. Aside from the "White Ape" reference, the forms are unrelated and never considered one half of the other.

I believe in Lam Wing Kit's book, he lists that CCM taught 2 forms for "Bahk Yuen Tao Tow". I would need to check the book tonight to verify this. It is this reference that Sifu Cottrell and myself were referring to.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm, I´m looking forward to your next post!

I myself only know of one Ba yuen tao tou!

[Young Mantis]

German Bai Lung,

Just to get back to you, Lam Wing Kit does indeed list in his Shandong Tong Long Kuen Sut book:

Bahk Yuen Tchut Dong (yut lo) - White Ape Exits Cave (1st road)
Bahk Yuen Tchut Dong (yee lo) - White Ape Exits Cave (2nd road)
Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (yut lo) - White Ape Steals the Peach (1st)
Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (yee lo) - White Ape Steals the Peach (2nd)

The WHF lineage only has one of each. Although it appears not all CCM descendants list two roads for each of these forms.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Hello Young mantis,

is the Shandong Tong Long Kuen Sut book in the internet? I would like to compare the lists of forms ...

Do you know: yat lou ba yuen kuei yin kuen and yee lou ba yuen kuei yin?

[Young Mantis]

I am not aware of LWK's book being available online.

"Bahk Yuen Tchut Dong" and "Bahk Yuen Tao Tow" are the only "Bahk Yuen" forms in the WHF lineage.

[tanglang]

So there seem to exist two ba yuen tao to-versions then -I'm curious about your ba yuen tao to-version, U.M.? I have the Brendan lai- video Kung fu living ledgends filmed at wah lum- temple Orlando Florida.I hope you know this video as well?I think BL also performs the ba yuen tao to there, but totally different- and much longer..---ahh maybe there we go---- than our LKW- version. So can you tell me where the first part ba yuen tao to ends and the second beginns- or maybe Steve: do you know this video and can you tell me what is the last technique of first part and wher does the second part start ( which technique? I think helpfull as description would be cantonese terms, because then we don't have to transfer from english via LKW-book into cantonese/german.. I think cantonese is easier for us..?lol -though I don't speak any cantonese but relativly fluent english..in case of KF it's harder for me in english though..

[-N-]

Tanglang,

The White Ape Steals the Peach performed by Sifu Lai in that tape is only the 2nd road, totalling 24 movements.

N.

[tanglang]

So I know how it looks like now. Second road of part two, I guess? Though the techniques remind me on our version so maybe second road of part one, -N- ?Does anyone know why there is a part one and a part two in WHF-system?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by tanglang
So I know how it looks like now. Second road of part two, I guess? Though the techniques remind me on our version so maybe second road of part one, -N- ?Does anyone know why there is a part one and a part two in WHF-system?

I think that is the point -- there is only one part in the WHF system no second part.

Regards,
UM.

[tanglang]

I remembered MantisifuFW post wrong: thought WHF has two parts and CCM not, but it's vice versa. But: In the LKW-lineage I know only about one part, and it depends on how you count the techniques,of course, it has about 36 movements. It beginns with tso choi left and left hill-climbing stance, second technique grabbing an imagined right opponents arm with both hands(close them to fist) and pulling to ones right side while doing a tsa toi(knee or shin-kick) right simultaneously third technique: after the kick directly go to toppling kick with filching stance,(page 93 yellow LKW book) then: block right , straight punch left in right hill-climbing stance.. and so on. that's the beginning of our version.. part one- it is- should remember the p.ms ;) also..

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by tanglang
I remembered MantisifuFW post wrong: thought WHF has two parts and CCM not, but it's vice versa. But: In the LKW-lineage I know only about one part, and it depends on how you count the techniques,of course, it has about 36 movements. It beginns with tso choi left and left hill-climbing stance, second technique grabbing an imagined right opponents arm with both hands(close them to fist) and pulling to ones right side while doing a tsa toi(knee or shin-kick) right simultaneously third technique: after the kick directly go to toppling kick with filching stance,(page 93 yellow LKW book) then: block right , straight punch left in right hill-climbing stance.. and so on. that's the beginning of our version.. part one- it is- should remember the p.ms ;) also..

tanglang,

I thought we were discussing White Ape Steals the Peach. Your description sounds like the opening for what I know to be White Ape Exits the Cave.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

The openings in the Lee Kam Wing branch of
Ba Yuen TT and BYchot Dong are the same.

By the way: Kai Uwe, do you have any documentation about the:
yat lou ba yuen kuei yin kuen
and yee lou ba yuen kuei yin?
(translated something like: white ape watching the bankett)

[-N-]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


tanglang,

I thought we were discussing White Ape Steals the Peach. Your description sounds like the opening for what I know to be White Ape Exits the Cave.
YM
The Lam Wing Kit book lists those as the first five moves of White Ape Steals the Peach, 1st road. The 6th move is horse stance bo chui. So the first six moves are same as our White Ape Exits Cave (1st road).

7th, 8th, and 9th moves are the bung-kick-run sequence and this is where the form begins to differ from White Ape Exits Cave.

N.

[-N-]

Originally posted by tanglang
Does anyone know why there is a part one and a part two in WHF-system?
Ursa Major is correct. In WHF side, we do White Ape Exits Cave(1st road) and White Ape Steals the Peach(2nd road). We don't do the other ones.

WHF and Sifu Lai both have said that they reduced the number of sets taught to cut down on redundant material. Sifu Lee Kam Wing also says something similar in his books. So this may be a reasonable explanation.

Looking at the Lam Wing Kit text for 1st road of White Ape Steals Peach, it does look like those sequences and transitions are present in other forms.

N.

[NPM]

Dear -N-,

I also heard from Sifu and our Sibaks in HK that WHF reduced the number of hand sets in the system for his curriculum. However, in regards to Bahk Yuen Tao Tow, there has always been only one set consisting of 24 movements and not a first and second road.

NPM

[-N-]

Originally posted by NPM
However, in regards to Bahk Yuen Tao Tow, there has always been only one set consisting of 24 movements and not a first and second road.
Sihing NPM,

Sorry for my confusing post. I only meant to say that as taught by Sifu Lai, our Bahk Yuen Tao Tow corresponds to the 2nd road as listed in the Lam Wing Kit book.

I'm unfamiliar with the history or background of their 1st road, as I've only known what they have listed as 2nd road.

N.