Wing Chun - The smart person's art? [Archive]

Savi

08-01-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by mun hung
Do you feel that the skill level of a Wing Chun practitioner is greatly influenced by his or her intelligence?
I would have to agree. From what I have witnessed in the WC that is taught at MengsofAZ, the students that know how to understand the system intellectually can execute the applications more consistently. The ones that are more apt in the physical side of learning express their understanding through energy, but grow a bit slower in the system. Neither is bad nor good, so long as they understand where they are in their learning development.

Originally posted by mun hung
Or can an intellectually challenged person still learn and apply as well?
I would have to say yes to this question as well. Understanding kung fu, but not having the physcial competance to express what you know in mind will always balance out in the end. I feel it is only a matter of time. That is unless the student loses focus and gives up.
----------------------------------------
There is quite a unique way of teaching in HFY which addresses this issue:

Hung Fa Yi Siu Lin Tau: Little Drilling in the Beginning
1. We develop the combat skills in the practitioner soley on drills. Drills with and without partners, coupled with what people might consider 'sparring'. This is similar to getting your High School diploma.

Hung Fa Yi Siu Nihm Tau: Little Ideas/Concepts in the Beginning
2. The same approach is taken as #1, but supplimented with the technical know-how which addresses why things are being done in order to balance out the mind and body understanding. This is similar to getting your Master's Degree.

PaulH

08-01-2003, 10:23 AM

"Stupid is what stupid does.." Forrest Gumb. A stupid person like Gumb is stupidly intelligent when he avoided using his brain too much to play ping pong. I like to play like that. There is nothing but the unbearable lightness of the ball back and forth across the forum. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

John Weiland

08-01-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
WCK is stupid person art. The smart one think too much and end up living in Qing Dynasty or trying to write a book about Swiming before even get the body wet.

An apt set of analogies.

The stupid one end up doing it and doing it and doing it everyday. :D
That would be me then. :D It's good to know I'm on the right track. :p

Regards,

08-01-2003, 10:35 AM

My teacher has a couple of lightheated, yet serious sayings about this:

"You have to be smart enough to understand it, and dumb enough to do it." :D

... and ...

"Smart people tend not to practice hard. Don't rely on smartness." :eek:

Based on my own experience, I have to agree with these. I just haven't figured out whether I am too smart or too dumb yet! :p

Either way, Nike's advice says it best: "Just do it! :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. "Gumb"??? Sounds like a cross between Gump and Gumby. :D

PaulH

08-01-2003, 10:40 AM

Good catch, Kathy! Gumb like Ernie tends to rub on me the wrong way! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Tom Kagan

08-01-2003, 01:21 PM

... This is similar to getting your High School diploma.

... This is similar to getting your Master's Degree.

A random thought:

Bill Gates has a high school diploma.

George W. Bush has a Master's degree.

Who is smarter? Who has a better grasp of their subject material? Who is better able to convey their thoughts?

Just thinking outloud ...

:)

08-01-2003, 01:54 PM

Tom is on to something.

There are so many different types of intelligence and different ways to learn (http://www.ldpride.net/learningstyles.MI.htm).

Then of course, there is our "emotional intelligence" (http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/gallery/young/emotion.htm#what%20is%20EI) and the role it plays.

Not to mention the added complexities of personality types (http://keirsey.com/) and communication styles (http://www.siu.edu/offices/counsel/talk.htm).

Sometimes even a simple question makes my head spin. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ernie

08-01-2003, 01:58 PM

hey paul
Good catch, Kathy! Gumb like Ernie tends to rub on me the wrong way! Ha! Ha!

that's it next time i see you it's on , no gloves , in fact i wont even use my hands , in fact i wont even use wing chun , pure savate .............. and a touch of thai

bring a cup

:D :D :D

i was staying out and you had to suck me back in.
a less intelegent person , will just do with hesitiation or thought , this makes them dangerous ,
they will do as the are told with full commitment , since they are not to worried about what happens to themselves .
this type of person can use wing chun very well or any other type of fighting .

if they are drilled right they will respond acordingly.
but they will never teach or fully understand what they do.
do you know ever nook and cranny that makes your car work . no but you can drive with ease .

a smart person has more on there mind they often try to analyze everything and get a internal dialogue going . this might in hibit there ability to respond , or create doubt .

but this person will grasp every detail and seek out every secret.
the engineer that desighned the car may not even now how to drive .

do you think the chi-wa-wa would rush up and start barking at the pit bull if it had any idea what the reality of the situation was.... yet sometimes the pit bull backs down :D

PaulH

08-01-2003, 02:14 PM

I regret to inform you, Ernie, that Hendrix has provided me the full blueprint of Rainbow technology. How does it go?

My body is iron
My soul is air
I destroy Evil.
Slash!

That's it. There is no such thing as a fight between us. I just walk right through you - Savage Thai or not. Ha! Ha!

Ernie

08-01-2003, 02:21 PM

don't make me hit your rainbow tech with my ultimate weapon
''''smelly gym sock kung fu '''' it will shatter your will to survive and you will beg for death ,,,,,:D

PaulH

08-01-2003, 02:44 PM

Okay. I have spoken foolishly and humbly beg you to spare my nose from this unstoppable three stooges' attack. Ha! Ha!

Tom Kagan

08-01-2003, 03:09 PM

Sometimes even a simple question makes my head spin.

It could be worse... Another random thought: ;)

Three ways (among a few other ways) to become a U.S. military officer:

1. Graduate from West Point, Annapolis, or Air Force Academy.
2. Graduate from civilian college while enrolled in ROTC.
3. Graduate from High School, then enlist, then complete Officer Candidate School

Who will make the better military leader? It might surprise you to know that, according to studies (Rand), there is no discernable difference in achievement. All three have produced the same proportions of some great U.S. military minds, many excellent officers, and their small share of "duds." However, option #3 is not really a viable path anymore for a potential officer's military career due to internal politics. Option #1 is the most expensive by an order of magnitude.

Phenix

08-01-2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Savi

Hendrik's Trolling. Please do not hijack Mun Hung's thread. Please respect Mun Hung and leave your politics out of this.

Savi,

The rabit or the tuttle. most of us wants to be rabit but tuttle get there first. May be you are different. And that is ok.
However, for me,
Respect is about seeing and speaking the reality and experience.

spfstr

08-01-2003, 04:22 PM

I am confused by your last post Tom. You are going away from the original question and you seem only to be challenging what Savi said.

I have seen first hand that the intellectual level of a person does have great influence on their learning curve.

if they are drilled right they will respond acordingly.
but they will never teach or fully understand what they do. - Ernie
Ernie hit it on the head. The how is great, but it is the why that will take you further.

You do have a point about the end result. I think you were trying to say that the results come from personal experience and personality characteristics.

The truth is knowledge is knowledge and you either have it or you don't. Same for fight skill. You either have it or you don't. Savi's point is that supplimentary knowledge can only enhance a fighter's awareness. That's what I can see from his posts.

spfstr

08-01-2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

Savi,

The rabit or the tuttle. most of us wants to be rabit but tuttle get there first. May be you are different. And that is ok.
However, for me,
Respect is about seeing and speaking the reality and experience. Is that turtle? Just checking.

The respect statement is perfect and what Savi was stating as well. In your previous post you were not holding to your own statement however.

From my experience with Savi and the HFY family, they understand that the mind and body have to be as one. You can't have more body than mind or vice versa. They have to be balanced along with spirit. They hold no illusions about reality and experience as you may think.

Respectfully,
Shawn

Phenix

08-01-2003, 04:35 PM

Savi's point is that supplimentary knowledge can only enhance a fighter's awareness. That's what I can see from his posts.---s

Knowledge is sure always great if it describe a part of reality.
However, when two advance people face off it will be the experience and talent count. Yes, Talent. some born with it. That is apart of reality. and one has to accept the fact. IMHO.

As for awareness.... long story to develop it.

Phenix

08-01-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
don't make me hit your rainbow tech with my ultimate weapon
''''smelly gym sock kung fu '''' it will shatter your will to survive and you will beg for death ,,,,,:D

I prefer the chosen one beyond smart or stupid!
With RAW POWER and MOO. :D

http://www.kungpowmovie.com/swf/KPmain.html

Hint. if havent try it yet. after the movie stop. click on the white dress or the black dress. :D

Ernie

08-01-2003, 04:44 PM

my name is betty and i will kill you with my gopher chucks wimp low:)

Rolling_Hand

08-01-2003, 05:46 PM

<<Knowledge is sure always great if it describe a part of reality.>>HS

--All of us learn how to read and write in the second grade, but most of us go on to greater things. Is that a part of reality?--RH

<<However, when two advance people face off it will be the experience and talent count. Yes, Talent. some born with it. That is apart of reality. and one has to accept the fact. IMHO.>>HS

--"...two advance people face off it will be the experience and talent count. Yes, Talent. some born with it."... that reminds me that person behind door No.1.....could it be....****! I forgot his name and may be you could help us out for this one, if you're not too busy answering TenTigers' questions.--RH

08-01-2003, 05:53 PM

<<<<<-------- See here.

Originally posted by Phenix
The rabit or the tuttle. most of us wants to be rabit but tuttle get there first.

Now you're stealing my thunder. ;)

Regards,
- kj

canglong

08-01-2003, 06:13 PM

I believe Savi has pointed out how some traits are acquired in HFYWCK.

Knowledge is sure always great if it describe a part of reality. However, when two advance people face off it will be the experience and talent count. Yes, Talent. some born with it. That is apart of reality. and one has to accept the fact. IMHO.

Hendrik in you opinion what is reality, what is talent and what would constitute 2 advanced people?

Rolling_Hand

08-02-2003, 03:52 AM

<<but this person will grasp every detail and seek out every secret. the engineer that desighned the car may not even now how to drive.>>Ernie

<<"I" know some ancient high tech secret and promise to make SLT and WCK life changes once forever. Certainly that is from Kuen Kuit and metalphysics and same with Chang San-Feng's. Ng Mui teaches me in the dream.>>HS

--That reminds me this...."A little learning is not a dangerous thing to one doesn't mistake it for a great deal."...but there's a problem for those who misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions from the sutras and other folks, even skies are blue, and you couldn't see the rainbow. Bros, spring comes, the door will open, and you'll recognize the way -the way of WCK and Ch'an!--RH

KPM

08-02-2003, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

It could be worse... Another random thought: ;)

Three ways (among a few other ways) to become a U.S. military officer:

1. Graduate from West Point, Annapolis, or Air Force Academy.
2. Graduate from civilian college while enrolled in ROTC.
3. Graduate from High School, then enlist, then complete Officer Candidate School

Who will make the better military leader? It might surprise you to know that, according to studies (Rand), there is no discernable difference in achievement. All three have produced the same proportions of some great U.S. military minds, many excellent officers, and their small share of "duds." However, option #3 is not really a viable path anymore for a potential officer's military career due to internal politics. Option #1 is the most expensive by an order of magnitude.

This may be a little off topic, but I wanted to point out that there is a 4th way.... a direct commission. Used to happen on the battlefield due to necessity in times of combat. Now it happens rarely, but does still occur. I received a direct commission and went from E5 to O1 overnight. How to bring this "on topic".... there may be those rare individuals that have both physical and intellectual talent that can pick up on both aspects of WCK very readily. Yip Man may have been someone like that.

Keith

Ng Mui

08-02-2003, 04:49 AM

Ip Man said ''You had to be clever to reach the highest level of Wing Chun.''
While needed, Intelligence will not give you an advantage at every task.
Wisdom on the other hand will .

08-02-2003, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by Ng Mui
Ip Man said ''You had to be clever to reach the highest level of Wing Chun.''
While needed, Intelligence will not give you an advantage at every task.
Wisdom on the other hand will .

Excellent.
- kj

Phenix

08-02-2003, 10:44 AM

[Is that turtle? Just checking. --S

Yup Turtle. --HS

The respect statement is perfect and what Savi was stating as well. In your previous post you were not holding to your own statement however. ---S

It is ok if That is how you think. -HS

From my experience with Savi and the HFY family, they understand that the mind and body have to be as one. You can't have more body than mind or vice versa. They have to be balanced along with spirit. They hold no illusions about reality and experience as you may think. --S

As for anyone's or family's view, they certainly can have thier view and believe. Free Will. -HS

Phenix

08-02-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
my name is betty and i will kill you with my gopher chucks wimp low:)

Hey, My Name is the Choosen One and I will kill you with my MOO Bong low kick :D

Rene, UFO is from French, according to Betty!:D

Phenix

08-02-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

--".. if you're not too busy answering TenTigers' questions.--RH

RH,

i have met 10 year old wc'ner that can't comprehend and never will , --Ernie.

Ernie said it well. :D

Phenix

08-02-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

--That reminds me this...."A little learning is not a dangerous thing to one doesn't mistake it for a great deal."...but there's a problem for those who misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions from the sutras and other folks, even skies are blue, and you couldn't see the rainbow. Bros, spring comes, the door will open, and you'll recognize the way -the way of WCK and Ch'an!--RH

RH, you are so smart and so wise and so great! you must be the Chosen ONe! :D

But he only live in Kung Pow ???? :confused:

http://www.kungpowmovie.com/swf/KPmain.html

Ernie

08-02-2003, 01:34 PM

beware the flying uni-boob

Rolling_Hand

08-03-2003, 08:34 PM

<<But he only live in Kung Pow ????>>HS

Whenever Hendrik talks about things, it's like asking for the doggie bag at a restaurant, there is a sense of failure, isn't there?

Phenix

08-03-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
<<But he only live in Kung Pow ????>>HS

Whenever Hendrik talks about things, it's like asking for the doggie bag at a restaurant, there is a sense of failure, isn't there?

Ok You can win over Hendrik. Happy now?

Rolling_Hand

08-03-2003, 09:52 PM

<<Ok You can win over Hendrik. Happy now?>>HS

What is that?...When one has no sense of living with a wide open sky above and a lust green earth below, then it becomes very difficult for him to expand his vision.--RH

canglong

08-03-2003, 10:16 PM

Ok You can win over Hendrik.

Hendrik for someone that likes to say there is no winning or losing you refer to winning and losing alot and for someone that likes to ask alot of questions you don't seem to be a person of many answers.

desertwingchun2

08-03-2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by canglong

Hendrik for someone that likes to say there is no winning or losing you refer to winning and losing alot and for someone that likes to ask alot of questions you don't seem to be a person of many answers.

Canglong, don't hold your breath for answers to yours or Ten Tigers questions, man. You know when Hendrick can't quote the answer from a book it's ....

" .... like asking for the doggie bag at a restaurant, there is a sense of failure, isn't there?" - RH

-David

Phenix

08-04-2003, 07:28 AM

Ok you all win. Happy now?

PaulH

08-04-2003, 07:57 AM

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
- Thomas Jefferson

I sense a great disturbance in the force. It's hard to spill blood over the internet though! What can we do to restore liberty and justice the American Way? The Statue of Biu Gee's liberty points to the great eyejab for the moment. One must be blind if justice is to prevail. Let me know the moment when the jabbings are truly over to your heart's deepest satisfaction. Carry on! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-04-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by PaulH

What can we do to restore liberty and justice the American Way?

Regards,

"This is America. We don't have enlightement here . We have Strip club, Las Vages, and HBO. "----BPM

http://www.mgm.com/bulletproofmonk/

Click on launch site :D

Tom Kagan

08-04-2003, 09:50 AM

I am confused by your last post Tom. You are going away from the original question and you seem only to be challenging what Savi said.

I have seen first hand that the intellectual level of a person does have great influence on their learning curve.

In Savi's attempt to answer Mun Hung's question, he actually created the tangent by raising and answering another question. Mun Hung asking "Do you need to be smart?" is different question than Savi's interpretation of Hung Fa Yi's answer to the question of "What is smart?" My random musing poked a hole in Savi's interpretation, and Kathy Jo elaborated quite eloquently.

I don't think you are confused at all. But, intellect's correlation to classical education is an elitist interpretation of "smarts." By equating "smart" with the level of one's classical education and a necessary component to learn the "technical know-how which addresses why things are being done in order to balance out the mind and body understanding," it implies that the common man or woman equipped with only a "high school diploma" or less cannot reach the highest levels of Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu, and, thus, cannot possibly be qualified to practice Ving Tsun Tseun Chin Tong.

A bunch of actors, musicians, and stage hands in a traveling opera troupe are probably not intellectually chalenged, but neither are they likely candidates for the 19th century equivalent of Rhodes Scholar candidates in China. Did Savi and/or you mean to suggest that they are unqualified to pass on their knowledge and wisdom of Ving Tsun? Doubtful - It's more likely the result a simple mistake in Savi's understanding of the Hung Fa Yi method of teaching.

[Censored]

08-04-2003, 01:43 PM

A fortune cookie told me that the best doctor is not known outside of the family. If diseases do not appear, who can win notoriety by curing them? If time and space do not exist, who can lecture on them? ;)

Some practitioners create problems, some appear to solve them. And others appear to have no problems; are they intelligent, wise, talented, or just lucky?

Rolling_Hand

08-04-2003, 03:38 PM

<<Some practitioners create problems, some appear to solve them. And others appear to have no problems; are they intelligent, wise, talented, or just lucky?>>Censored

What problems?...We are confronted by a condition, not a problem, and not a theory. Our friend is a flower. If we take care of her well, she will grow beautifully. To help a flower grow well, we must understand her nature. To help our partner do Chi Sao well, we must feel her energy!--RH

Phenix

08-04-2003, 04:40 PM

A great song. ..

wind-flowers
my father told me not to go near them.
he said he feared them always
and told me that they carried him away....

Wind-flowers, i couldn't wait
To touch them. to smell them. i held them closely.
Now, i cannot break away.
thier sweet bouquet disappears.
Like the vapor in the desert.
Take a warning son.

Wind-flowers
Their beauty capture every young dreamer who lingers near them.....

canglong

08-04-2003, 09:42 PM

The answer still remains yes and yes.

"Do you need to be smart?" is different question than Savi's interpretation of Hung Fa Yi's answer to the question of "What is smart?" My random musing poked a hole in Savi's interpretation, and Kathy Jo elaborated quite eloquently.

Your random musing just illustrates that you misinterpreted not only Savi's answers but Hung Fa Yi's answer to Mun Hung questions as well.

Savi's simple answers were yes and yes and then he goes on to point out that HFYWCK has addressed these questions by simply providing a method for teaching the "intellectually challenged" to become skilled fighters in a proven manner of drilling known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Lin Tau as well as providing an intellectually stimulating martial science to the more advanced students by use of a method known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Nihm Tau as well as other methods we could discuss later.

canglong

08-04-2003, 09:53 PM

What problems?...We are confronted by a condition, not a problem, and not a theory.

Excellent statement Rolling_Hand. For the most part I just wanted to make sure this statement was posted at least twice, secondly I would like to suggest Fresh read it and better understand what is and is not WCK.

Rolling_Hand

08-04-2003, 10:19 PM

Ten Tigers and Tony say..."Kungfu", Hendrik says ..."wind-flowers".

That reminds me one of Karen Carpenters' songs -"Yesterday Once More"

Phenix

08-05-2003, 08:02 AM

.....They did not listen they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will..." - Vincent "Starry Starry Night"

Tom Kagan

08-05-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by canglong The answer still remains yes and yes.

Your random musing just illustrates that you misinterpreted not only Savi's answers but Hung Fa Yi's answer to Mun Hung questions as well.

Savi's simple answers were yes and yes and then he goes on to point out that HFYWCK has addressed these questions by simply providing a method for teaching the "intellectually challenged" to become skilled fighters in a proven manner of drilling known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Lin Tau as well as providing an intellectually stimulating martial science to the more advanced students by use of a method known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Nihm Tau as well as other methods we could discuss later. [/B]

Again, a different question. A comparison was made to the "intellectually challenged" with the equivalent of "high school diploma." Still, I'll also attempt to answer Mun Hung's original question.

While not being stupid sure helps, you don't have to be smart to reach the highest levels of Ving Tsun. I've seen first hand the effects of intellect on the speed of learning. But, I cannot agree with spfstr, either; that does not have a direct correlation to the ultimate level of achievement. And, no basis exists to compare the ultmate level with the scholarly endeavors of a classical education.

There is nothing wrong with a teacher or a student recognizing their own limitations - no shame in that, and life sometimes moves at a pace many are not able to sustain or slow down for. But, I have also seen that, more often than not, when a teacher comes to the conclusion another person is unable to learn, most often that really is a unbecoming rationalization to avoid facing that the teacher is lacking the ability or inclination to teach that particular person - in that prejudice, there is shame.

Nothing stops a handful of scholars in every field of study from scoffing at the notion they are not better than everyone else, though. Consider that, in today's U.S. military, it is daunting task for KPM's to advance his direct commission beyond O-4 without a college degree plus a wife. It is very difficult task to measure the merits of KPM's military leadership abilities. Studies from the Rand Corp, however, show this way is not justified - but it remains and is made more stringent, nonetheless.

Ving Tsun is a martial art for the common man or woman. Within its teachings are all the tools necessary to pass it on to the next generation. The common man or woman does not always have the opportunity or inclination to obtain "the equivalent of a master's degree," which, by Savi's analogy, is required to obtain the "technical know-how which addresses why things are being done in order to balance out the mind and body understanding." The only reasonable conclusion to such an analogy is that it is Savi's belief that the common man or woman can be trained, but never reach a level in Ving Tsun necessary to properly pass its wisdom on to the next generation.

Do you really mean that the "equivalent of a master's degree" is inherent with the qualifications for the teaching method of what you are trying to learn? Is it a requirement of the method that, without it, one cannot learn the and, thus, would be unqualified to pass on the wisdom?

You are convinced I misunderstood Savi. Okay, but the above is the logical conclusion to Savi's analogy. I feel that Savi did not mean to say that, though by yours and spfstr's seemingly defensive responses, I'm not so sure anymore. Are you saying that's what he actually meant? He meant to say that the teaching of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is soley the dominion of the scholarly elite of its students and that you concur that is a correct intepretation of the Hung Fa Yi method???

Has something happened to Savi that he is no longer able to speak for himself? :confused:

canglong

08-05-2003, 12:50 PM

Tom,
because I practice Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun I believe I understand what Savi was saying in his statements where as someone not studying HFY might not have so I thought I might try to make the connection between the two statements because your point here is what Savi was not only addressing but seemingly in agreement with in my opinion...

Ving Tsun is a martial art for the common man or woman. Within its teachings are all the tools necessary to pass it on to the next generation. The common man or woman does not always have the opportunity or inclination to obtain "the equivalent of a master's degree,"

With that in mind the practice of HFY SLT and HFY SNT and other methods for what you refer to as the common man can now also provide anyone with the opportunity to learn what might be considered the equivilant of a master's degree but the point is this, yes there is a way for the common man to learn wing chun kung fu and become very skilled and HFY has addressed this issue. Even more to the point HFY has addressed the issue in such a way to make it systematic for both the teacher and the student so odds are they can both be as successful each time the information is passed on.

Although I do realize I am not Savi, if you only want answers from Savi may I suggest sending him a private message I am sure he will be more than happy to answer you that way as well. As you suggest sometimes his life may be moving too fast or slow to keep up with every post of every thread but I do know him and know his answers are sincere and meant to be helpful.

[Censored]

08-05-2003, 01:42 PM

What problems?...We are confronted by a condition, not a problem, and not a theory.

Conditions are not apprehended by the intellect. If there are no problems then there is no call for intelligence.

Does your line of WC give written tests, BTW? Do you think they would be appropriate or useful?

canglong

08-05-2003, 01:57 PM

p.s. ...Tom Happy Birthday! :)

for the birthday guy (http://horoscopes.astrology.com/dailyleo.html)

Tom Kagan

08-05-2003, 02:58 PM

Thank you for the birthday wishes and the link. Leo the lion was delicious, if a bit charred. The wooden dragon in me does overcook a lot of things.

With that in mind the practice of HFY SLT and HFY SNT and other methods for what you refer to as the common man can now also provide anyone with the opportunity to learn what might be considered the equivilant of a master's degree but the point is this, yes there is a way for the common man to learn wing chun kung fu and become very skilled and HFY has addressed this issue.

If what you are comparing as "the equivalent of a masters degree" as what is necessary to teach Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu, then common ground has not been reached.

The common man or woman may not have the opportunity or inclination to obtain "the equivalent of a masters degree." It does not matter how much the common man or woman can refine their skills within a particular methodology. If they are left with technique which cannot be passed on, what they were taught is incomplete. To compare your methodology to a post graduate classical degree does it an injustice.

Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu is certainly not rocket science:

- sit on your horse
- occupy center
- disperse, deflect, dominate
- hit, kick, thrust, slice
- practice, practice, practice
- enjoy, grow, live
- cooperate, share, pass it on

That's about it. You don't even need "the equivalent of a high school diploma" to live in a "beautiful springtime." ;)

"What do you call 10,000 books written about Ving Tsun? Tai Chi. Maybe I'm too cheap to buy 10,000 books. Maybe I'm too stupid to read 10,000 books. Maybe I'm too lazy to write 10,000 books. But, Tai Chi is a great art - what the f@ck are you doing with Ving Tsun if what you want is Tai Chi?" -- Moy Yat (an Earth Tiger in one of his more cantankerous moods)

Phenix

08-05-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

You don't even need "the equivalent of a high school diploma" to live in a "beautiful springtime." ;)

A baby need high school diploma to learn how to breath.
And it has to be a certain high school diploma only.
Is this natura? or dreaming?

Beside, technical training is not equal to education. Smart doesnt mean Wisdom.

For people who knows all about Chan this and Chan that. Hui Neng the six patriach doesnt even knows how to read and write....

To much Windflower makes dream babies.

canglong

08-05-2003, 03:31 PM

If what you are comparing as "the equivalent of a masters degree" as what is necessary to teach Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu, then common ground has not been reached.

No, I did not indicate it was necessary only possible for the "intellectually challenged" student to acquire the equivalent knowledge.

If they are left with technique which cannot be passed on, what they were taught is incomplete.

to quote myself-- "Even more to the point HFY has addressed the issue in such a way to make it systematic for both the teacher and the student so odds are they can both be as successful each time the information is passed on." yes the system is complete.

Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu is certainly not rocket science

Never said it was, only that after noticing all the different variances in which it is taught and passed on you would think that this were so.

For people who knows all about Chan this and Chan that. Hui Neng the six patriach doesnt even knows how to read and write....

then he probably has no use for all your sutras either.

Phenix

08-05-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by canglong

then he probably has no use for all your sutras either.

Wrong answer, He studied sutras after enlightenment.

Rolling_Hand

08-05-2003, 05:28 PM

<<A baby need high school diploma to learn how to breath.
And it has to be a certain high school diploma only.
Is this natura? or dreaming?>>HS

--To many folks it looks like you're walking off with a jackhammer. Best make sure beforehand that the other side could see the magic of your hat.--RH

<<Beside, technical training is not equal to education. Smart doesnt mean Wisdom.>>HS

--You know when Hendrick can't quote the answer from a book. Does that mean we have to listen to more oldies from the MTV?--RH

<<For people who knows all about Chan this and Chan that. Hui Neng the six patriach doesnt even knows how to read and write....>>HS

--Hendrik, it must be over a million times that you've been telling others about Chan this, Chan that, Hui Neng this, Hui Neng that... Why??? A Ch'an practioner lives by believing something, not by debating arguing about many things.--RH

<<To much Windflower makes dream babies.>>HS

--Could you elaborate? you seem to know what you are talking about dream babies, so let's get some detail, instead of simply posing "WORDS". I would just like to learn more from your end. A man must not swallow more beliefs than he can digest.--RH

Phenix

08-05-2003, 06:02 PM

A Ch'an practioner lives by believing something, not by debating arguing about many things.--RH

1, Can you please tell us which chan lineage is your trasmission line? who is your teacher? Where is your mind seal?

2, Believe? Chan practice is to live by believe something?
Wow, how come all the Koan filled with debating and arguement?

Do you need Hendrik To reply for you?

Buddhism is about honesty. So admit it. You have no clue about Chan and WCK. Come on. why attach to yourself so much. admit you don't have a clue...and don't mislead people with looks smart off topic arquements... Don't get mad, Chan right? No self .... Ok you win over Hendrik already so admit it....you still win you see :D

canglong

08-05-2003, 06:03 PM

Wrong answer, He studied sutras after enlightenment.

When you become enlightened you don't need the sutras.
When you understand chan you don't need right or wrong.
When you understand self you don't need to hide behind Hui Neng the six patriach.

Phenix

08-05-2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by canglong

When you become enlightened you don't need the sutras.
When you understand chan you don't need right or wrong.
When you understand self you don't need to hide behind Hui Neng the six patriach.

Go back and read the six patriach sutra.
Why is the 5th patriach teaching Him quating Vajra Sutra ?
What did Hui Neng said about the SadnaPundarika Sutra?

So you understand self. Great who certified you? which lineage?

IS side outward block Tahn Sau? :D

:D

canglong

08-05-2003, 06:25 PM

Great who certified you? which lineage?

A baby need high school diploma to learn how to breath. And it has to be a certain high school diploma only.
Is this natura? or dreaming?

Resolving inner conflict is healthy enjoy the journey.

Phenix

08-05-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by canglong

Resolving inner conflict is healthy enjoy the journey.

Great !

who certified you? which lineage? where to?

Don't forget to read the 6th patriach sutra and map carefully. Good luck on your journey. :D

John Weiland

08-05-2003, 11:19 PM

Who needs to be smart: the teacher or the student?

Some people excuse bad teaching by saying: students buy it, so it's OK to sell it. But pushers of drugs say the same. It is the responsibility of the teacher to teach the truth, even if the student cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. It is also the teacher's responsibility to teach in a way that really develops the student's Wing Chun knowledge.

Imagine that a would-be student needs medicine. Is it fair to prescribe him a fake medicine just because he cannot tell it from a real one? The same is true of phony teachers and made-up lineages and philosophical malfeasance.

For years, the Chinese communist authorities tried to silence intellectuals' concerns and were irritated, to say the least, when someone questioned their policies and "official" party line.

Some may not like the Phenix's posts, but the truth only hurts when it should.

Good luck on your journey. :D

canglong

08-06-2003, 12:00 PM

Hendrik, your mind is losing it's focus and it is now time to regain that focus. Don't focus on the patriarch, don't focus on the sutras, don't focus on the certificates, don't focus on the lineage,
where to aaah yes the road to enlightenment that is where to. Now focus and travel.

John,
sounds as if you are saying who needs to be smart when phenix can be smart for you. What truth of Phenix can you confirm?

yuanfen

08-06-2003, 02:35 PM

Canglong says:
Hendrik, your mind is losing it's focus
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I sure dont think so. He has his own unique writing style in English but he is pretty focus-ed.
And he controls his ygkym structure and adjusts under pressure quite well. He is a quite calm and non vindictive person and he does know Chan in literature and practice. He knows other styles
and he has been in contact matches at one time.

I am not John,,, but John and I have both met him and spent some quality time with him.

Despite all the sniping- he has remained characteristically
non vindictive in his posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________

PaulH

08-06-2003, 03:10 PM

I find Hendrik very happy-go-along, generous, whimsical, and tough. It must have come from his vast resevoir of accumulated painful life experience.

"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain. - Kahlil Gibran"

Regards,

Phenix

08-06-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by canglong
Hendrik, your mind is losing it's focus and it is now time to regain that focus. Don't focus on the patriarch, don't focus on the sutras, don't focus on the certificates, don't focus on the lineage,
where to aaah yes the road to enlightenment that is where to. Now focus and travel.

Thanks for your advise.

However, since Gautama Buddha is my teacher, that is the path to follow. since Avalokitasvara Buddhisatva is my teacher, that is the path to follow. Since Patraich Hsuan Hua is my direct teacher, that is the path to follow. Since Surangama sutra is my map, that is the path to follow. The path of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. If not this way, one is not a buddhist right?

Certainly you have your respected way.

But, sorry, A buddhist must travel in the Buddhist way. the path walks by all buddhas of past, present and future.

We walk a different path. ..

John Weiland

08-06-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I find Hendrik very happy-go-along, generous, whimsical, and tough. It must have come from his vast resevoir of accumulated painful life experience.

"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain. - Kahlil Gibran"

Regards,
LOL! The joy and sorrow that comes from life in the Silicon Valley trenches.

“Work like you don’t need the money,
love like you’ve never been hurt,
and dance like no one is watching.”
--- Satchel Paige

Phenix

08-06-2003, 04:18 PM

Joy, Paul,

Thanks.

John,

MATRIX silicon Valley :D
Where is Trinity?

spfstr

08-06-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by mun hung
Do you feel that the skill level of a Wing Chun practitioner is greatly influenced by his or her intelligence? Or can an intellectually challenged person still learn and apply as well?
Okay I will concede that you can have skill without great intelligence. However, just because I can get the dog to salivate when the bell rings does not mean he knows why he is salivating.

Rolling_Hand

08-06-2003, 08:05 PM

<<1, Can you please tell us which chan lineage is your trasmission line? who is your teacher? Where is your mind seal?>>HS

--There is a difference between studying Buddhism and actually doing Buddhism "Sou Faat". You have not got out of the habit of your routine. Everytime I see you post something about Buddhism you seem to just quote stuff from books to be sarcastic. Hm....?! Why would anyone always talk about his lineage, his certificate and his mind seal in public? Is he doing the Gong show on broadway? Or is he a bumper sticker Buddhist?--RH

<<2, Believe? Chan practice is to live by believe something?
Wow, how come all the Koan filled with debating and arguement?>>HS

--To use an analogy, either you are riding on a donkey or the donkey is riding on you. All the Koan, like the old dog leads the way, to debate and to see what is it, is to miss it completely!--RH

<<Do you need Hendrik To reply for you?>>HS

--Where and how could you do this? TenTigers and Savi have been waiting....Quote "Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions?" --RH

<<Buddhism is about honesty. So admit it. You have no clue about Chan and WCK. Come on. why attach to yourself so much. admit you don't have a clue...and don't mislead people with looks smart off topic arquements... Don't get mad, Chan right? No self .... Ok you win over Hendrik already so admit it....you still win you see >>HS

--This is old world magic. In the age of the Internet and the Web, you have often eaten a food whose name you are unaware of. -"I like corrot and I hate pickle". Does this remind you about this -"abmit it" peeping Tom and his quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions from books?--RH

Phenix

08-06-2003, 11:20 PM

--There is a difference between studying Buddhism and actually doing Buddhism "Sou Faat".---RH

To Practice Buddhism,

one has to take refuge in Tripple Jewels and Take 5 precepts. That is the basic.

So who is the Buddhist Sangha one takes refuge and takes precepts and how long?

Second, which sutras does one study? Since that is the teaching of Buddhas. Sutras are Buddha's dharma body.

Without taking refuge, holding precepts one is certainly not a buddhist. are you one? HS

You have not got out of the habit of your routine. Everytime I see you post something about Buddhism you seem to just quote stuff from books to be sarcastic. Hm....?! ---RH

It is a habit and practice of Buddhist to qoute Sutras and writing of Patriach because one is not buddha and patraich yet. Thus, one qoute the Sutras and patriachs teaching. The Sutras are Buddha's dharma body thus it is a non negotiate reference.

Sorry if you don't like that.
I just do regular buddhist practice: post what is it said in the sutras and the teaching of the patriachs.

Certainly you can have your own view. it is a free world. --HS

Why would anyone always talk about his lineage, his certificate and his mind seal in public? Is he doing the Gong show on broadway? Or is he a bumper sticker Buddhist?--RH

When a group of scientists come together and have technical discussion. They will introduce themselve, which University, which department, what is thier title, what is the topic they are doing reseach in. The result of thier study.

Same in Buddhism, one introduce who they are, what lineage they from, What method they are investigating.

Lineage is not cheating. Certification is from hard work. Mind seal is respetable and a honor. Why is people prohibit to talk about it? IT is something repectable not something shamefull. unless one pretend to be what one is not such as call oneself Doctor so and so but doesn't have a doctor degree in the reality.

Again, you can have your view. it is a free will world. --HS

<<2, Believe? Chan practice is to live by believe something?
Wow, how come all the Koan filled with debating and arguement?>>HS

--To use an analogy, either you are riding on a donkey or the donkey is riding on you. All the Koan, like the old dog leads the way, to debate and to see what is it, is to miss it completely!--RH

You can certainly have your own view.
however, to comment on " "is to miss it completely" again which patriach certified your enligtenment? -HS

<<Do you need Hendrik To reply for you?>>HS

--Where and how could you do this? TenTigers and Savi have been waiting....Quote "Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions?" --RH

We talk about Buddhism lineage, Sangha, Mind seal of Chan here. you have a habit of switching topic, pretend to not see the evidents, and attack the person instead of facing the issues. Thats ok. if that is the way you believe in.

By the way, The other topic is discuss in the other discussion title " anyone wants to take a short." lots of people can answer those basic stuffs. -HS

<<Buddhism is about honesty. So admit it. You have no clue about Chan and WCK. Come on. why attach to yourself so much. admit you don't have a clue...and don't mislead people with looks smart off topic arquements... Don't get mad, Chan right? No self .... Ok you win over Hendrik already so admit it....you still win you see >>HS

--This is old world magic. In the age of the Internet and the Web, you have often eaten a food whose name you are unaware of. -"I like corrot and I hate pickle". Does this remind you about this -"abmit it" peeping Tom and his quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions from books?--RH

Buddhism is about honesty and straighfoward. If one can't discuss with honestly and straightfoward. There is nothing to talk about.

Certainly, you can have your own style of enlightement and teaching ...... your Chan your WCK.....

it is clearly we travel different path , You walk yours " I" walk mine. good luck in your journey and so long. --HS

John Weiland

08-07-2003, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
John,

MATRIX silicon Valley :D
Where is Trinity?
Apparently in White Sands....
http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/trinity/tr_visit.html

"After witnessing the awesome blast, Oppenheimer quoted a line from a sacred Hindu text, the Bhagavad-Gita: He said: 'I am become death, the shatterer of worlds.'"
---from Kunetka, James W. City of Fire: Los Alamos and the Atomic Age, 1943-1945. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1978. p. 170.

My friend worked there at White Sands in the 90s. His sig read: "As a matter of fact, this is rocket science."

Regards,

canglong

08-07-2003, 01:10 AM

--There is a difference between studying Buddhism and actually doing Buddhism "Sou Faat". You have not got out of the habit of your routine. Everytime I see you post something about Buddhism you seem to just quote stuff from books to be sarcastic. Hm....?! Why would anyone always talk about his lineage, his certificate and his mind seal in public? Is he doing the Gong show on broadway? Or is he a bumper sticker Buddhist?--RH

it is clearly we travel different path , You walk yours " I" walk mine. good luck in your journey and so long. --HS

hendrik you can run from the truth but you can not hide from the truth.

The great virtue, De,
follows alone from the Dao.
That which is named Dao
is elusive and vague.
Vague and elusive,
yet in it is Form.
Elusive and vague,
yet in it is Object.
Dark and obscure,
yet in it is Existence.
This Existence being real,
in it is the evidence.
From the beginning until now
its manifestations have never ceased,
through which we may see the origin.
-- Laozi

Hendrik you have lost focus and do not adhere to the principles of Wu-wei because you only have questions and no answers only yin and no yang always different ways not the way. Regain your focus and find the way.

Phenix

08-07-2003, 08:30 AM

hendrik you can run from the truth but you can not hide from the truth. --C

Great Assumption. you are free to think what you like. you can make up your own history, your own truth....... free world.
Thanks but no Thanks for your truth. --HS

The great virtue, De,
follows alone from the Dao.
That which is named Dao
.............. which we may see the origin.
-- Laozi

Hendrik you have lost focus and do not adhere to the principles of Wu-wei because you only have questions and no answers only yin and no yang always different ways not the way. Regain your focus and find the way. -----C

Are you trying to avoid question with the same old "attack the people with whatever nonsense" tactic or Hendrik Lost focus?:D

The question for you since post ago are:

what is your lineage chan, who is your teacher in Chan, where is your mind seal?

You want me to answer for you? Since you complain when others ask you they need to give you an answer of the question.

According to Buddha, Chan tradition, and solidly written in the Chan sutras:

"Before the time of Bhisma Garjitasvara Raja Buddha," HsuanTs'e remarked, "it was possible (to dispense with the service of a teacher); but since that time, he who attains enlightenment without the aid and the confirmation of a teacher is a natural heretic." "Will you, Sir, kindly act as my testifier," asked Hsuan Chiao. ----Chapter VII. Temperament and Circumstances , six patriach platform sutra.

So the answer for you is simple. Just answer Yes or no. If yes, fill in the names of the lineage, Sangha.... if no then you are a Heretic.
That simple. Why jumping to Dao De Ching and Wu wei? using that is a smoke screen to defocus and get away, right?

it is certainly no supries that heretic always love to make up history of Chan and the teaching of Chan..... that happen since ancient time of China. From Tang dynasty to the white lotuc cult of Qing dynasty.

By the way, IMHO, you are wrong totally with linking Wu Wei to Yin. Wu Wei is "Tee" not "polarity" :D
Wu Wei is at Wu Ji polarity level. Non polarity. Thus, it said, Wu Ji give raise to TaiJi, TaiJi give raise to Ying Yang. Ying Yang give raise to Four phases. Four phase give raise to Eight Hexagan. And, In Iching, each Kua is divided into Heaven, Man, Earth group.... how the heck is Wu wei is Ying which is step evolution down?

Chan is Chan. Daoism is Daoism. Please get those straigh ok. stay focus.

Tom Kagan

08-07-2003, 09:13 AM

If both paths set forth by Savi are "complete," then you have training methods which are unecessary. I'll set aside the whole argument of "separate but equal" for the purposes of brevity.

If everyone needs both methods, then that's marginally better. But still, this means you have training methods which are unecessary because your definition of path #2 encompases path #1

If you really mean that one path is better suited for a type of person than the other, then your paths are still incomplete. You'll need a few more than two paths. It also fails to recognize the completeness of a system which recognizes its incompleteness.

Unfortunately, the real reason behind the distinctions Savi set forth are, in reality, is a ressurection of a caste system killed off by the ancestors of Ving Tsun many years ago. The two groups - the educated and privileged "scholar" who would be too valuable to fight in wars and conflict and the "warrior" who did not understand the methodology but was able to make it work - would still somehow "need" each other (as long as the "warrior" class remained in their subordinate place to the "scholar"). It may have come from before Ving Tsun, but it did not survive in it.

I want this to be perfectly clear: The common man or woman is not intellectually challenged. Education does not equal intellect. The hubris of thinking that it requires the "equivalent of a master degree" to acquire the "technical know-how which addresses why things are being done in order to balance out the mind and body understanding" of Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu is, in reality, an overlayed resurrection of the caste system of many northern styles of Kung Fu. A relative few southern styles have it, too. But, within Ving Tsun, the ancestors did away with it because that type of thinking is the essence of a method, not the essence the underlying training.

No matter how "relaxed" you try to make such a caste system today, you still have two classes (at a minimum), one of which is on a path which is incomplete and wholely reliant on the other. And, it has no place in today's society. Its role in a guerilla campaign of a rural agricultural peasant insurrection against a ruling dynasty is debatable, too.

You say I don't understand your Hung Fa Yi method. I'm a reasonable guy, I can certainly accept that opinion as having basis. However, the above and what is put forth in my other posts is the reasonable conclusion to what Savi and you have set forth. So, is that the Hung Fai Yi way? Or do you feel your understanding deserves a reexamination?

Hendrik you have lost focus and do not adhere to the principles of Wu-wei because you only have questions and no answers only yin and no yang always different ways not the way.

Since Ving Tsun is more yin than yang, at least it's closer to its true nature to have the yin of questions which cannot be answered than have the yang of answers which cannot be questioned.

After reviewing the history of your posts in this and other threads, I've decided I will no longer debate this thread with you. While you have been (for the most part) reasonably cordial with me, I cannot come to the same conclusion in your manner with others who may also disagree with you. So, feel free to have the last word if you feel the need to take it. Since I don't have the "equivalent of a masters degree" to understand your answers, how could I possibly have anything other than questions anyway? So, I'll second Hendrik: Okay, you win. Happy now?

Phenix

08-07-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

After reviewing the history of your posts in this and other threads, I've decided I will no longer debate this thread with you. While you have been (for the most part) reasonably cordial with me, I cannot come to the same conclusion in your manner with others who may also disagree with you. So, feel free to have the last word if you feel the need to take it. Since I don't have the "equivalent of a masters degree" to understand your answers, how could I possibly have anything other than questions anyway? So, I'll second Hendrik: Okay, you win. Happy now?

Tom,

I also Second you. and Rest in peace. :D

joy chaudhuri

08-07-2003, 09:31 AM

John W.

In a previous incarnation I lived in New mexico ( had the first purely wc kwoon in Las Cruces 79-85). As a department head I had an external program at White Sands and Alamogordo and have
seen that awesome crater that points to a new and scary world.
Oppenheimer was well read in Indian philosophy as was Schrodinger. You know about the Fermi solution?(There is a book)
Fermi at Alamogordo threw up some torn pieces of paper in the air
at the time of the blast and from thescattering of the pieces he predicted the power of the blast and was pretty close to the instrumental post facto analysis.

John Weiland

08-07-2003, 12:09 PM

Hi Joy,

Originally posted by joy chaudhuri
John W.

In a previous incarnation I lived in New mexico ( had the first purely wc kwoon in Las Cruces 79-85).

I remembered this in your personal history. I remember White Sands as proximal to the Texas Guadalupe Mountains, knee high to the Sierras or Rockys. Beautiful desert. I followed the path of a Horned Lizard through them mountains. He's probably my totem animal, but I don't like ants. :D

As a department head I had an external program at White Sands and Alamogordo and have
seen that awesome crater that points to a new and scary world.
The physicists were taken bets on whether Trinity would destroy the world or just New Mexico. :D

Oppenheimer was well read in Indian philosophy as was Schrodinger. You know about the Fermi solution?(There is a book)
Fermi at Alamogordo threw up some torn pieces of paper in the air
at the time of the blast and from thescattering of the pieces he predicted the power of the blast and was pretty close to the instrumental post facto analysis.
Mathematics like good Wing Chun teaches us to be problem solvers.

Regards,

Rolling_Hand

08-07-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Canlong

hendrik you can run from the truth but you can not hide from the truth.

The great virtue, De,
follows alone from the Dao.
That which is named Dao
is elusive and vague.
Vague and elusive,
yet in it is Form.
Elusive and vague,
yet in it is Object.
Dark and obscure,
yet in it is Existence.
This Existence being real,
in it is the evidence.
From the beginning until now
its manifestations have never ceased,
through which we may see the origin.

Hendrik you have lost focus and do not adhere to the principles of Wu-wei because you only have questions and no answers only yin and no yang always different ways not the way. Regain your focus and find the way.

-----------------------------------

Tony,

It is the love of the Tao that has lighted and that keeps glowing the holy fire of Taoism. You've reached the gate of the Tao. In the name of heaven and earth, you can afford to pray for someone. Life goes on. Until next time, then.

RH

Rolling_Hand

08-07-2003, 05:29 PM

<<Conditions are not apprehended by the intellect. If there are no problems then there is no call for intelligence.>>Censored

--If an animal does something, men call it instinct; if a man do the same for the same reason, do you call it instinct or intelligence?--RH

<<Does your line of WC give written tests, BTW? Do you think they would be appropriate or useful?>>Censored

--Some do, some don't! Would they be appropriate or useful?....Well, Yes! ...even written tests can lead us to wisdom!--RH

canglong

08-08-2003, 01:17 PM

Tom

If both paths set forth by Savi are "complete," then you have training methods which are unecessary. I'll set aside the whole argument of "separate but equal" for the purposes of brevity. Both paths are complete because they can train a novice to a skilled WCK practitioner using only one path yet thay are not the only paths and they are not in and of themselves what make the system complete nor would any successful means of achieving a goal be unnecessary.
If everyone needs both methods, then that's marginally better. But still, this means you have training methods which are unecessary because your definition of path #2 encompases path #1I feel this is incorrect because of your focus on the factors of the system instead of the sum which highlights the manner in which the individual is instructed. The system is designed to meet the needs of the individual. Some people may only require path #1 some require path #2 some require that combination of the two which can be specifically tailored to address the individual need of that particular student. For the record HFY incorporates 3 distinct paths.
You say I don't understand your Hung Fa Yi method. I'm a reasonable guy, I can certainly accept that opinion as having basis. However, the above and what is put forth in my other posts is the reasonable conclusion to what Savi and you have set forth. So, is that the Hung Fai Yi way? Or do you feel your understanding deserves a reexamination? A reasonable conclusion may not always be the correct conclusion and blaming the messenger is always the easy way out. I personally prefer to consider each response a bit of shared clarity on the part of those responding nothing more nothing less.
Since Ving Tsun is more yin than yang, at least it's closer to its true nature to have the yin of questions which cannot be answered than have the yang of answers which cannot be questioned. Anything with more yin than yang would naturally be out of balance I assure you WCK is not out of balance, though what some practice may be.

After reviewing the history of your posts in this and other threads, I've decided I will no longer debate this thread with you. While you have been (for the most part) reasonably cordial with me, I cannot come to the same conclusion in your manner with others who may also disagree with you. So, feel free to have the last word if you feel the need to take it. Since I don't have the "equivalent of a masters degree" to understand your answers, how could I possibly have anything other than questions anyway? So, I'll second Hendrik: Okay, you win. Happy now? Yes I try whenever possible to be cordial with all those I may correspond with. Although I don't consider dialogue a debate I enjoy a good healthy exchange. My happines is not dependent upon you or Hendrik so I was happy then, am happy now and can assure you I will enjoy more unforseen happiness to come, but thank you just the same for your concern.

canglong

08-08-2003, 01:35 PM

Tony, It is the love of the Tao that has lighted and that keeps glowing the holy fire of Taoism. You've reached the gate of the Tao. In the name of heaven and earth, you can afford to pray for someone. Life goes on. Until next time, then. RH

"All in the world recognize the beautiful as beautiful.
Herein lies ugliness.
All recognize the good as good.
Herein lies evil..."

Thank you, for such kind words my WCK brother RH. You are a good man.

reneritchie

08-08-2003, 01:47 PM

Intelligence, like most things, is a double-edged sword, and can be as much help as hinder. Where a Joe-average might find one thing to focus on, a smart person can be distrcted by a million minutia. Paralysis rather than insight can be the result of intelligent insight.

Most dangerous is probably a certain level of intelligence where you can see the (true or not) complexity but not how to avoid getting trapped in it.

WCK was passed down through the educated marchant class in Foshan, but it was not passed down to them by an educated class, but by the mean people, the lowest caste in society (actors, considered as low as beggars, prostitutes, and butchers). And from them, it was not maintained in that class, but shared with restaurant workers, bus drivers, mechanics, college grads, sport institute grads, Chinese doctors, butchers, actors, and all other types. Perhaps some understood more than others, perhaps some could apply more than others (and not always did the understanding lead to application in this endeavor more than any other), but the analogy of path(s) is in and of itself a simple matter of perspective. One or many depends on the individual - one road, a million different ways to meander down it.

Nowadays, many teachers are passing along versions of WCK (all ancient, of course) which go beyond even MA, into Kano-esque areas of personal growth and human rounding, perhaps soon driving and shooting will echo the old horsemanship and archery requirements to be truly 'excellent', and WCK caligraphy class will be required for grading. Even then, the path will remain the same, only for some it will seem more like a boulevard or promanade.

In the end, it won't matter though, as long as you enjoy what you do and get something out of it and don't take it too seriously (it is, after all, co-equal to getting a hobby in Apalachian Folk Pottery, right?). And the level of intelligence probably won't matter as the level of effort expended (flaky intellectuals don't always get very far).

Truly smart people (or maybe wise people rather) tend to hedge their bets, or keep multiple balls up in the air (or they lose their shirts when their 'sure thing' falls faster than a tech stock in the late 90s).

Savi

08-08-2003, 02:22 PM

Tom does not know what teaching methods exist in HFY. Nor does he understand or recognize the nature of the various ‘paths’ of learning in HFY, yet feels competent enough to judge it. It is inaccurate to say that there are unnecessary teaching methods in ‘path #1’ vice ‘path #2’. It would actually be more beneficial to Tom to ask what teaching methods are there, or to request an elaboration on our previous posts. But since he is basing his response on what we have provided and subjugated it to his perception on Wing Chun training, I can understand why he is stating what he has stated. In that sense, what he said is neither right nor wrong because it is based on his point of reference. If we value his comment against our point of reference, it is entirely wrong and we must find a common point of reference to find an agreement.
--------------------------------
The Wing Chun that we train is a military form of the Wing Chun system. It is quite a different creature in contrast to the various ‘personalized’ styles of Wing Chun. I use the word ‘personalized’ in the sense that a person’s name is attached to the even more various ways to spell Wing Chun. In a style, there is no right or wrong. Further, it is simply one person’s expression of their own experience, and can only be attributed to them when they teach it because it is their style being taught. When they pass away, so does their style. In this area, anyone can teach when and what they please. Tom feels that Tony and I are stating otherwise, but in truth we all have as Hendrik says "Free Will."

However, in a system, there is a right and wrong because now enters a scientific process. In a scientific approach to combat, one must shed away the labels and styles and images of combat; illusions in other words. One has to understand the reality of combat. Combat is about survival, and addresses ALL ranges of combat. One has to look at combat as it is (one human being against another), what it consists of, and look for common denominators that both prey and predator must operate within. From there one must realize that efficiency becomes an issue. We have to weigh the cause and effect of everything and understand the consequences of everything we do as well. In order to survive in combat, the most efficient tools are the ones that balance out the common denominators. Only the survivor’s skill gets developed in combat.

In a combat system, there are (principles, concepts, theories, strategy and tactical arrays which are byproducts of a scientific approach to combat) as well as (body mechanics drilling, energetics training, skill testing) to challenge what seems to be right as well as wrong. This is to say the least in my opinion! Ultimately, a formula emerges from this particular approach which binds all findings to be true and dismisses all inefficiencies as NOT part of the system.

Also, the influence of the military in our Wing Chun history demanded that there be a learning track for quick development of troops. Troops don't need to know how to replicate the system, only how to use it. It also demanded there be a learning track for the higher ranked officers which required the technical knowledge approach as well as the physical training. They require deeper training to cultivate and train more troops.
--------------------------------
One thing I would like to point out it that the difference between Ignorance and Courage is level of knowledge. The more knowledge a person has, the more confidence they have. The less knowledge a person has, the more ignorant they become. Whether Ignorance is bad or good depends on your preference. Whether Courage is bad or good also depends on your preference.

The key thing is that Balance is the key to survival. Everything has to be balanced.

Tom Kagan

08-08-2003, 03:35 PM

Understanding Hung Fai Yi is an entirely different subject than understanding my SiHing in Ohio. Your Sifu is not the only one who's played with the toys in your SiGung's basement. Understanding that is far more important for the purposes of what you write than what you are taking on faith as some perfect form of combat unchanged from 250 years ago. And, its far more important than the unfortunate human predilection to create an army over which to preside for some misguided notion of proving who is right or wrong.

In your method, only Mr. Garrett Gee trying to teach publicly in the past eleven years or so. His background comes from other martial arts. Mr. Benny Meng has been learning it only the past six years. His background is also in other martial arts. My SiHing, in turn, is now trying to teach your Sifu. His background also comes from other martial arts. What's your background?

Whether the Hung Fa Yi method will remain constant - not based on "one person’s expression of their own experience" - can only be proved with a far greater amount of branching of the lineage's tree than seen up until now. As it stands now, I already see quite a few of what you call 'personal expression' differences between San Fransisco and Ohio and Ohio and Arizona. Perhaps they are not of consequence. But, from my understanding of human nature, I doubt it.

Only time will tell whether you are correct. You haven't completed the system and tried to teach others on your own. At this point, all that is evident is your faith and trust in your Sifu's ability to guide you through the Hung Fa Yi method of learning Ving Tsun and your belief that you will, eventually, "have the true system." To me thus far, this appears to parallel not only most other lineages of Ving Tsun, but other types of martial arts as well.

Only time will tell whether anything you are repeating as told to you without subjecting it to your own version of 'science' regarding Style versas System has merit or is just marketing sophistry. Resurrecting Ving Tsun's Hung Gar root via a caste system of the 'warrior' dependant on the 'scholar' is wholly unecessary, regardless.

Savi

08-08-2003, 03:54 PM

Tom, did my last post hurt your feelings or something? Who said anything about understanding your sihing in OH?!? After reading your last post some people might say your skirt is showing...

Why discuss my lineage and assume things? All your last post consisted of is opinion. But now I really have a much clearer idea of your nature. You most certainly have many underlying resentments towards particular people, yet you do not truly know or understand them. Plain and simple. No need to discuss people's lineage and try and use it against them. Bad tactic buddy.

I am not posting here to convince you about anything. You don't even know me, yet you presume to know what I am doing all the way here in AZ! Man, be soft! Teaching and Proper Consistency go hand in hand.

WRT Hung Fa Yi (notice how I didn't even use the name in my last post...shrug), you will never be able to understand WHAT IT IS until you stop having such strong preferences. Grain of salt, man.

Perhaps you feel threatened by what I am saying. Don't know, don't care. You want to make this a personal issue, not my problem. Stop living in the past.

Tom Kagan

08-08-2003, 04:53 PM

I've made no assumptions about you or your lineage. I've read and responded to your words, as you have to mine. How am I 'living in the past' if what I pointed out regarding 'only time will tell' is about the future? What have I judged when it is just an observation? To suggest that I feel threatened is amusing.

WRT Hung Fa Yi (notice how I didn't even use the name in my last post...shrug),

from your previous post:

Tom does not know what teaching methods exist in HFY. Nor does he understand or recognize the nature of the various ‘paths’ of learning in HFY, yet feels competent enough to judge it.

And 'HFY' means?

Savi

08-08-2003, 05:18 PM

OK, HFY word overlooked in the first paragraph.... BUT Tom,

Understanding that is far more important for the purposes of what you write than what you are taking on faith as some perfect form of combat unchanged from 250 years ago. And, its far more important than the unfortunate human predilection to create an army over which to preside for some misguided notion of proving who is right or wrong. -Tom

Assumption about the validity of the system as well as my personal views on the matter...

In your method, only Mr. Garrett Gee trying to teach publicly in the past eleven years or so. His background comes from other martial arts. Mr. Benny Meng has been learning it only the past six years. His background is also in other martial arts. My SiHing, in turn, is now trying to teach your Sifu. His background also comes from other martial arts. What's your background? -Tom

Not only an assumption on the character of my family, but also implying that we subject our own beliefs/perceptions into the teaching of others? Come on Tom, this is a poor reflection of diplomacy. And my background is none of your business because it has nothing to do with the discussion.

Whether the Hung Fa Yi method will remain constant - not based on "one person’s expression of their own experience" - can only be proved with a far greater amount of branching of the lineage's tree than seen up until now. As it stands now, I already see quite a few of what you call 'personal expression' differences between San Fransisco and Ohio and Ohio and Arizona. Perhaps they are not of consequence. But, from my understanding of human nature, I doubt it. -Tom

Wholey incorrect as now you seem to have assumed the role of measuring the quality of HFY? Are you the inheritor Tom? Do you know the science of HFY? We will all have our own 'expression' of what we learn, but the science has been discovered. The science is something that cannot be changed because it is based on all common denominators of reality. Not my reality or yours, reality itself.

Only time will tell whether you are correct. You haven't completed the system and tried to teach others on your own. At this point, all that is evident is your faith and trust in your Sifu's ability to guide you through the Hung Fa Yi method of learning Ving Tsun and your belief that you will, eventually, "have the true system." To me thus far, this appears to parallel not only most other lineages of Ving Tsun, but other types of martial arts as well. -Tom

The above italicized is a COMPLETE assumption. You are making assumptions about me and my perception of what is real. You want to retract this statement now?

I've made no assumptions about you or your lineage. -Tom

And also about this?

How am I 'living in the past' if what I pointed out regarding 'only time will tell' is about the future? -Tom

You're not following the dialogue Tom. Your above comment is mismatching my "living in the past" with your "only time will tell". I was referring to your beef with my Sigung, and I would apprecicate it if you would leave him out of your discussion with me. He has nothing to do with our discussion.

Understanding Hung Fai Yi is an entirely different subject than understanding my SiHing in Ohio. Your Sifu is not the only one who's played with the toys in your SiGung's basement. -Tom

This is where you went off on the personal. I made no mention whatsoever about Master Meng. Bringing up your experience about 'toys in your Sigung's basement' is stating what to me, Tom? HFY is a toy? Or are you stating this because you think I can't see beyond my Sifu? Tom, you want to get back on topic?

Marky

08-09-2003, 11:51 AM

I see the slow and painful formulation of the answer to Mun Hung's original question.

Phenix

08-09-2003, 12:22 PM

Do you feel that the skill level of a Wing Chun practitioner is greatly influenced by his or her intelligence? ----

N-O NO

Or can an intellectually challenged person still learn and apply as well? -----

Get your PHD in ADVANCE DIFFERENTIAL GEOMETRY and then tell us. :D

Side topic:

The old chinese saying " diligent can substitute dull".
Thus, proper intelligence might give one some lead however it is the diligent of training and "learning how to ask" and "willing to change for better" makes the different. That is the key to mastery of an art. IMHO

There is no short cut. No fomular can susbtitute experience.

No sole intelligence can replace the conditioning of the body to syncronize with mind and breathing and fighting experience.
all needs time and training and alots of analysze and reasoning and trying... IMHO.

ZIM

08-09-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by spfstr:
Okay I will concede that you can have skill without great intelligence. However, just because I can get the dog to salivate when the bell rings does not mean he knows why he is salivating.
Its maybe a truism in any art that over-intellectualism can get in the way. I think it a mark of honesty, if not real intelligence, when a person can say "I don't know" with perfect confidence. So if a sifu can give me the answer to everything right away, my merde detector goes off- he's a dummy.

What I mean by that is, only really dumb ppl have the answers to everything and will tell you about it. *I* OTOH, have only dumb moments. ;)

And, YES, my dumb moments lead me directly to enlightenment becoz I'm dumber than you so whatever. :) Om Mane Padme Dumb

ZIM

08-09-2003, 08:28 PM

Something else was on my mind, so here goes. :)

WRT the whole sutra thing- I'm no Buddhist, but I never minded reading them. There's a lot of good in them; what I've gotten after reading the Dhammapada, etc. and various commentaries on Buddhist thought, was a little along the lines of:

-everybody's born with the keys to both heaven and hell, metaphorically speaking or not, as you please. And it's the same key for both, your choice.

-it is a nobler choice to open hell and let others out than to go for the rewards of heaven.

-those who are in hell regard all visitors as tormenting demons; even with your goodly intentions they see it as such. Getting through is the hard part, but then they can leave, which was your noble goal to begin with.

-sure there's more, but who wants to write a book here of all places?

Got mind seal? (http://www.coolantarctica.com/gallery/seals/Weddell_seal3.jpg)

Phenix

08-09-2003, 09:57 PM

-sure there's more, but who wants to write a book here of all places? -Z

-those who are in hell regard all visitors as tormenting demons; even with your goodly intentions they see it as such. Getting through is the hard part, but then they can leave, which was your noble goal to begin with. -hs

if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras... but in the same time claiming one inherit Chan, shaoLin......kuen kuit has Chan... Lets see how The 6th Patriach say about this issue :

To believe in the reality of objects or in Nihilism results in fallacious views or intensified ignorance respectively. "A bigoted believer in Nihilism blasphemes against the Sutras on the ground that literature (i.e., the Buddhist Scriptures) is unnecessary (for the study of Buddhism). If that were so, then neither would it be right for us to speak, since speech forms the substance of literature. He would also argue that in the direct method (literally, the straight Path) literature is discarded. But does he appreciate that the two words 'is discarded' are also literature? Upon hearing others recite the Sutras such a man would criticize the speakers as 'addicted to scriptural authority'. It is bad enough for him to confine this mistaken notion to himself, but in addition, he blasphemes against the Buddhist scriptures.

You men should know that it is a serious offence to speak ill of the Sutras, for the consequence is grave indeed! "He who believes in the reality of outward objects tries to seek the form (from without) by practicing a certain system of doctrine. He may furnish spacious lecture-halls for the discussion of Realism or Nihilism, but such a man will not for numerous kalpas realize the Essence of Mind. "We should tread the Path according to the teaching of the Dharma, and not keep our mind in a state of indolence, thereby creating obstacles to its understanding.----- six patriach platform sutra

canglong

08-10-2003, 04:24 PM

On the Importance of Sarana Affirmation Thus said Master Rennyo: “There is a case where reading the Sutras is not reading the Sutras, and conversely, not reading the Sutras is reading the Sutras
Even though a person may be totally unlettered, if they are able to encourage others to listen and read the Sutras: to aid others in attaining the awakened mind of Amida Buddha, then they have understood the words of the Sutras even without reading a single one.

Should you not find the pearl after one or two divings, don't blame the ocean. (Paramahansa Yogananda)

ZIM

08-10-2003, 07:03 PM

:( I probably shouldn't delve into this unhappiest of arguments, but- never fear- I'm still completely dumb. :)

WRT Buddhism in the West-

Phenix->
Some of the issues? problems? miscommunications? that have gone on may have something to do with the current transmission of the Dharma in the West versus what is traditional in the East. While I am in NO position to criticize the lineages of various Chan/Zen sects [Oh, wouldn't that be a joy. Flame-retardant gear required] there does seem to be some explanatory trends for this argument.

Perhaps, as an offer for clarification or understanding, I could offer some links that I found helpful?

Sanbo Kyodan Zen : The Heritage of Western Zen (http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/sanbo.htm)

A Critique of the Current State of American Zen (http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/uszen3.htm)

To all: I do NOT offer these as disparaging OR personal remarks to anyone! They are general critiques, not personal to CMAs, and not written by me. If they help in understanding, great- if not, apologies offered in advance.

With that, unless someone wants to talk about this more, I will go so you all can get back to your wing chunning.

Rolling_Hand

08-10-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Hendrik

if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras... but in the same time claiming one inherit Chan, shaoLin......kuen kuit has Chan... Lets see how The 6th Patriach say about this issue :

-------------------------------------

There's a mighty big difference between the 6th Patriach and the new wave-monk wanna be. Ch'an is always avaiable, but it does not belong to anyone. If you try to manufacture that jackhammer--Qoute"if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras..." out of your own ego, that's your own problem, not the 6th Patriach or anyone else's!!! The phenomenal world that all human beings experience is fickle and flexible and also merciless. The donkey at your own yark makes you feel like you're on slippery ground.

Phenix

08-10-2003, 09:31 PM

There's a mighty big difference between the 6th Patriach and the new wave-monk wanna be. --RH

That is very very very true! expecially to those wanna be who doesn't have lineage, teacher, not taking refuge with the tripple jewels, not taking precepts and always mis-lead people on "Empty, no need sutras..." As the 6th patriach said, if there is all empty then why even bother to post about Chan? Not to mention about making false claim? --HS

Ch'an is always avaiable, but it does not belong to anyone.--RH

Every living being has buddha nature thus capable to become buddha. As for Chan, one has to learn from a Teacher and get certified. Otherwise, it is heretic as written in the sutra. --HS

If you try to manufacture that jackhammer--Qoute"if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras..." out of your own ego, that's your own problem, not the 6th Patriach or anyone else's!!! ----RH

Those who claim wu wei and emptiness and no need sutras is certainly out of thier own ego. They never read the Chan sutra such as Varja, or Surangama, or platform. They never have a teacher. They don't understand a thing but trying to clam as an expert of Chan.

However, it is every buddhist issue if such a person exist because there exist such a misleading person who misleading others. Certainly, for non buddhist or people without compassionate and have no sense of responsibility will claim it is not everyone else' problem. They are not buddhist and have no clue about the teaching of compassionate anyway. --HS

The phenomenal world that all human beings experience is fickle and flexible and also merciless. The donkey at your own yark makes you feel like you're on slippery ground. --RH

All Buddhas teaches,
One creates one's karma.. Do good will create good karma. Do evil will create bad karma. One asked for it. misleading others will create a karma of misleading oneself. one has to learn to be responsible for one's deed instead of blaming on others. Thus, one studies Chan to learn to responsible for one's existance.--HS

Just my two cents. "I" might be wrong. :D

yuanfen

08-10-2003, 09:38 PM

ZIM- thanks for the two references.
The same old group on this list rather than sensibly discussing the differences basically end up focussing on the person of hendrik- specially so in RH's posts.
But no matter- getting back to your references.
Hendrik's reference is to the main stream of Chan as has come down through the patriarchs by direct instruction. There are enough gems in Buddhism that it spread rapidly- fragmenting into many variations. Japan alone has many sects.,,each with their own dogmatic walls. Junjiro Takakusus' "Essentials of Buddhism"
(out of print is a classic listing of various schools and their separate dogmas.) has a great list of sects and their differences.. The spreading of Buddhism in the west is also a mixed bag- with corruptions as one of your articles point out. And the sokkagokkais are into materialism.
Best not be fooled by "labels" just as in the spreading of wing chun.
In Japanese Buddhism--- Dogen spent quality time in China with masters. But Suzuki hasa following with his amoral approach. The
Rinzais tolerated Japanese fascism and racism. Suzuki translated the Lankavatara sutra but doesnt fully understand it.
Mainstream Chna is not an easy road- but it has its signature and indicators and it's ethics.

OTOH- in wing chun discussions on the net sometimes its hopeless. So- I will quit for the night. SPAR with resisting opponents and you will learn wing chun :-
These are complicated subjects and the personal attacks that have occurred on this thread shed little light.

Phenix

08-10-2003, 09:44 PM

Joy,

Thanks.

Time to rest in peace. It is up to every one's free will to choose thier destination.

One can attack me. However, ultimately, one needs to face if what one preaches can release one from Samsara. It is that count. Hendrik doesn't matter.

Just hope everyone find thier path to bliss.

enough being said in this subject , time to Sign of from this subject now.

Rolling_Hand

08-11-2003, 08:11 AM

<<Those who claim wu wei and emptiness and no need sutras is certainly out of thier own ego. They never read the Chan sutra such as Varja, or Surangama, or platform. They never have a teacher. They don't understand a thing but trying to clam as an expert of Chan.>>HS

<<Hendrik you have lost focus and do not adhere to the principles of Wu-wei because you only have questions and no answers only yin and no yang always different ways not the way. Regain your focus and find the way.>>Canglong

Hendrik,

"They don't understand a thing?"...Who are they? So, a thing, did "Your thing" give you that power to attack the others in public? "The man of highest power does not reveal himself as a possessor of power; Therefore he keeps his power. The man of inferior power cannot rid it of the appearance of power; Therefore he is in truth without power."--Lao Tzu "....trying to claim as an expert of Chan"...Who's this expert of Ch'an? So far, we've seen only you trying to act like one. Have you expanded the circle of your words the past year?

Canglong,

You have an ability to sense and know the higher truth. We understand that ordinary people are messengers of the Tao. Every man has three characters-that which he exhibits, that which he has, and that which he thinks he has.

Phenix

08-11-2003, 09:57 AM

So Shao Lin Chan is run by Japanese Shin Sect? Paramahansa Yogananda, or Daoist ? wu wei =yin=empty? :D

"They don't understand a thing?"...Who are they? So, a thing, did "Your thing" give you that power to attack the others in public? ----RH

If one has a PHD one has one. If one don't just admit it. That simple right?

"The man of highest power does not reveal himself as a possessor of power; Therefore he keeps his power. The man of inferior power cannot rid it of the appearance of power; Therefore he is in truth without power."--Lao Tzu "----RH

Great advise. Isn't you are the one who post don't need sutras.... why do you qoute?
Please show us how it was practiced in the daily life.
First by not attacking the messenger...?

But, all the King and emperor of China up to Mr. President of USA did show thier power right?. Hmmm, so is your qoute just a "nice" to be philosophy or reality?

....trying to claim as an expert of Chan"...Who's this expert of Ch'an? So far, we've seen only you trying to act like one. Have you expanded the circle of your words the past year? -RH

Wow. you sure love to accuse.
Have you really do Chan and WCK? Just curious.

Well, ok, good luck and you walk your path and "I" walk mine. Have a happy journey. Signing off now.

Tom Kagan

08-11-2003, 10:02 AM

"Basic ground-fighting techniques build a fundamental understanding of dominant body position, which should be the focus of most combatives training before moving on to the more difficult standing techniques. Ground fighting is also where technique can most easily be used to overcome size and strength." -- US Army field manual 3-25.150, Chapter 3.

... was referring to your beef with my Sigung, and I would apprecicate it if you would leave him out of your discussion with me. He has nothing to do with our discussion

What makes you think I have a 'beef" with your SiGung? If I did, would I:

Be a member of the museum?
Donate what could be considered a lot of money?
Discuss a few ideas I had with the Asia Society & Metropolitan Museum of Art when your SiGung told me about his monetary problems?
Respond to Jeremy's private email just as your SiGung had asked me to?
Continue to take your SiGung's phone calls and relay messages to people on his behalf for, whatever reason, your SiGung feels he cannot just speak to directly?
Give up my seat to your SiGung at the Opening of the Ip Man Tong?
Send LaiSi back with one of your SiHings to present to your SiFu?

I freely admit I don't know the Hung Fa Yi method of studying the Ving Tsun Style. I freely admit I study a style of art - by your definition of a style, does that mean there's a 250 some-odd year old nun running around somewhere? ;) And when did I even claim to understand my SiHing?? What I did was point out that understanding the people involved is more important, and give my reasons for stating it.

What I did was point out that your almost verbatim repetition of words on which your SiFu and SiGung put their name has no current way of proving or disproving that you are also, in actuality, not studying anything other than what you define as a style. There is no proof. Proof is in the results. History tends to be rewritten in the language of the victors and is never kept a secret.

The U.S. Military has 200 years of extensive documentation, analysis, and reanalysis on all levels of combat: stress, weapons (from fingers, toes, swords & firearms to artilery and psych-ops), demolition, construction, injury, logistics, law, survival, evasion, escape, cartography, and far more (even cooking - an army travels on its stomach!) - all, for the most part, freely available to its members and a huge portion fully declassified. If you want to limit the information to just the parts regarding one-on-one, hand-to-hand combat (a tiny portion of combat, armed or unarmed), there is still an incredible armout of information available. Tell me, do you study how to stalk and remove a sentry and the different ways to silently immobilize him based on whether you have a stick, knife, or nothing and whether the chinstrap to the sentry's helmet is fastened or not? The "why" of these things quickly become obvious to the lowly enlistee chanting a cadence without "the equivalent of a master's degree."

Unless your "military version" covers all these areas and another 10,000 books or so, you are not applying "a scientific approach to combat." You're either pretending (my "toys" reference), researching a minor Ving Tsun historical footnote (the claimed objective of the museum), or, if you are trying to study and implement them, actually trying to raise an army (a whole other level of eerie behavior from non-military personnel).

Since Wong Shueng Lueng and Bruce Lee did not walk into a MoKwoon 3/4 miles northwest of where they actually did, no other branches of your "System" are willing to step forward into the light of public scutiny to show that your definition of "style versas system" which is not based on personal preferences has any basis in reality. Since that is only happening now, as I said, only time will tell.

Thus, my observations have nothing whatsoever to do with any methods you study. The fact that you seemingly get upset (your: "Wrong Wrong Wrong" and immediate assumption I have a beef or feel threatened) when I point it out and, in the past, have received private emails and phone calls from others (never from San Fransisco) whenever I do point out things along the lines of this nature is, however, proof that understanding the people involved is more important than any method, scientific or otherwise, of studying an art when it comes to what should be rational discourse on an open forum.

By the way, unless it's in the wash or in the closet, how is is possible for my skirt to ever not show? :)

Geezer

08-11-2003, 11:52 AM

Tom Kagan Wrote>

when I point it out and, in the past, have received private emails and phone calls from others

If it's "Private", why are you telling us you had "Private" coversations , are you in some way telling us you're good at keeping secrets????:confused:

Sheldon

Tom Kagan

08-11-2003, 12:10 PM

If it's "Private", why are you telling us you had "Private" coversations , are you in some way telling us you're good at keeping secrets????

Private is private. Secret is something else entirely. I didn't call them "conversations" either - mostly I just consider it passionate nonsense from kids with strong beliefs. In a perverse sort of way, I admire it. Still, what I do with what I've been sent is, entirely up to me.

Geezer

08-11-2003, 12:39 PM

Tom Kagan Wrote>

Private is private. Secret is something else entirely.

Cambridge Dictionaries Wrote>

private (PERSONAL) adjective
describes thoughts and opinions which are secret and which you do not discuss with other people

Cambridge Dictionaries Wrote>

secret noun ]
a piece of information that is only known by one person or a few people and should not be told to others

Tom Kagan Wrote>

I didn't call them "conversations" either

Cambridge Dictionaries Wrote>

conversation noun talk between two or more people in which thoughts, feelings and ideas are expressed, questions are asked and answered, or news and information are exchanged

Amazing,......how wonderful answer machines really are!!!!!??????

Tom Kagan Wrote>

mostly I just consider it passionate nonsense from kids with strong beliefs. In a perverse sort of way, I admire it.

And so you should.........if you know what I mean???!!!!!

Sheldon

burnsypoo

08-11-2003, 01:10 PM

lame (NOT SATISFACTORY) adjective
(especially of an excuse or argument) weak and unsatisfactory

Rolling_Hand

08-11-2003, 01:34 PM

<<So Shao Lin Chan is run by Japanese Shin Sect? Paramahansa Yogananda, or Daoist ? wu wei =yin=empty? >>HS

--Whenever Hendrik talks about things, it's like Mike tyson singing I love Don King, it has a sense of a la Hendrik.--RH

<<If one has a PHD one has one. If one don't just admit it. That simple right?>>HS

--Are you still playing your silly game with a three year old? Of course, his mom is a woman.... don't you know "a better act" than this?--RH

<<Great advise. Isn't you are the one who post don't need sutras.... why do you qoute?
Please show us how it was practiced in the daily life.
First by not attacking the messenger...?>>HS

--Ok, an act of love or giving is the single most powerful act in practicing the daily life. There is no mystery about why this should be so. Write a love letter to the place where Tao lives. Sing its praises in specifics.--RH

<<But, all the King and emperor of China up to Mr. President of USA did show thier power right?. Hmmm, so is your qoute just a "nice" to be philosophy or reality?>>HS

--Are you a slow learner? Don't you know that Saddom Hussen is no longer in power? Hmmm, please don't spend too much time doing your gong show, and go to get yourself a copy of the Time.--RH

<<Wow. you sure love to accuse.
Have you really do Chan and WCK? Just curious.>>HS

--You have not got out of the habit of your routine;I like pickles, I hate carrots.--RH

<<Well, ok, good luck and you walk your path and "I" walk mine. Have a happy journey. Signing off now.>>HS

--Well, it's not about good luck....it's about knowing yourself. Have a little idea!--RH

mun hung

08-12-2003, 01:03 AM

Been too busy lately to visit the forum. I'm not surprised at where the conversations gone.

Ask a simple question.....

Rolling_Hand

08-13-2003, 07:41 PM

<<The same old group on this list rather than sensibly discussing the differences basically end up focussing on the person of hendrik- specially so in RH's posts.>>Yuanfen

--A buddist hopes to see people as they really are in themselves, not as they might appear to be, filltered through his or her own prejudiuce and needs. Nature gave men two ends --one to sit on and one to think with...this is known as the way of the Tao--RH

<<Every living being has buddha nature thus capable to become buddha. As for Chan, one has to learn from a Teacher and get certified. Otherwise, it is heretic as written in the sutra.>>HS

--Wisdom comes with seeing all things as interconnected and having a reality and value that arises in spite of their temporary nature. In Tao, you may have received numerous teaching on how to rest in the sutra. Arrogance comes from hanging on the reference point of me and other. Then, you are missing the point, "Ch'an".--RH

Universal Stance

08-14-2003, 07:32 AM

Hi mun hung,

In an attempt to bring it back to the original topic, my answer is in line with kj's original post.

Less intelligent people just do it...
More intelligent people just think about doing it...

I'm more intelligent and can confess, I spent way too much time trying to think of ways to train less while gaining more. If I used that time actually practicing, I would have been a Master (not just a Sifu) in my art. Smarter people tend to grasp the concepts quicker but run risk in questioning them more...guilty again.:rolleyes:

Starting a new, less thought-provoking regiment as we speak...

Hope I start a trend by sticking to the topic....:o

yuanfen

08-14-2003, 08:02 AM

A caveat on "intelligence"....its a dangerous turf. There are different kinds of intelligence... not all can be measured by IQ testing and formal degrees. In a gumpish way- intelligence is as intelligence does.
OTOH-
practice without some thinking can result in bad habits
and thinking ( and talking) without practice is likely to be dead wing chun.

old jong

08-14-2003, 08:40 AM

I can tell you that my students who are making the best progress are the ones who practice the more and talk the less.
They most of the times take more advantages of the questions asked by the more talking ones.

Universal Stance

08-14-2003, 09:15 AM

Actually IQ is relative to common sense and formal degrees to proficency in a specific subject. My reference is towards the level of contemplation a person uses on a given matter before he/she begins, if at all, to test the validity and effectiveness/defectiveness of what is being taught.

To tie this into what I am saying, once taught something I would contemplate on what was learned for a while, examining why I was taught that way, and test whether it was worth remembering beyond testing.

I may thoroughly understand the concepts, but the guy down the street who just did it got a whole lot more practice in than me. Guess that's why I suck...I blame the Aliens from planet KICS (Keep it Complicated Stupid):o

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

08-14-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
A caveat on "intelligence"....its a dangerous turf. There are different kinds of intelligence... not all can be measured by IQ testing and formal degrees.

For any who are interested, here's my favorite book on this subject:

The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen J. Gould (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393314251/qid=1060877997/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-8392486-6315868?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

yuanfen

08-14-2003, 10:11 AM

The late Stephen Gould was a good man.

Ip Man was a martial art genius.

TjD

08-14-2003, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by old jong
I can tell you that my students who are making the best progress are the ones who practice the more and talk the less.
They most of the times take more advantages of the questions asked by the more talking ones.

but isn't the truely intelligent student the one who realizes that only through hard work and perserverence will their kung fu improve?

i don't think intelligence has to equal too much thinking and/or talking. i find the quiet and centered people are usually more intelligent then the outspoken and mind-wandering people.

being quiet and centered also usually leads to stronger and better effort. those who are easily distracted usually glide away from good practice because of their distractions. the importance of standing in SLT and having some patience shows itself again :D

there's an odd phenomenon in our kwoon in that the people who come and show the most enthusiasm, and love WC so very very much usually never stay too long. mabye because it's because they'd rather talk about WC and how much they love it instead of actually doing it?

another large blockade to success in WC (and life in general) is that people assume that to achieve some point of success it will require X effort. in reality it requires Y effort (which is always greater than X). after putting forth X effort and not having the expected result, they get fed up and quit; instead of perservering and putting forth Y effort and actually obtaining that success.

Savi

08-15-2003, 10:07 AM

The spectrum of learning:

Physical --------> Balance <-------- Mental

I feel that the ones who practice more and talk less are more kinestetic (sp?) in nature. They begin by doing things physically.

The ones who talk more and practice less are more cerebral in nature. They begin by doing things mentally.

The ones who balance both body and mind learning and experience are the group of people that can communicate to both types of people on the spectrum.

Through hard work, preserverance, persistence, and patience people tend to get the best of both worlds.

reneritchie

08-15-2003, 10:37 AM

You have visual learners who pick things up just by seeing them, sometimes even just once, and if they're naturally coordinated (etc.) can often do them very well after only a few tries. They're, of course, the devil's work.

Some people train to much, over train, burn out, cement bad habits, never go through any internal analysis or improvement process, and kind of robot-themselves to failure.

Some people talk to much, think to much, over-analyze at the expense of doing, and never really test all the stuff they waste time perseverating about.

Regardless of how you learn or train, I think Savi is correct in taking a balanced approach. Learn something until you have it 'close enough' to begin reps. Rep it until it becomes ingrained, but not like a machine--make every rep conciously beter than the one before. Then put it into the Chi Sao/San Sao lab, try it against all sorts of different situations with ever-increasing resistance levels. Make it yours. Don't beat it to death tho. Take time to sip some water, exchange some jokes, and enjoy life.

anerlich

08-15-2003, 05:10 PM

Ali and Tyson were two of the greatest fighters of recent times.

A fair spread of the intelligence continuum there ... and even Ali was forced to quip "I said I was the greatest, not the smartest" about some rather ordinary academic performance.

To quote/paraphrase Calvin Coolidge, "The world is full of educated derelicts ... persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

yuanfen

08-17-2003, 06:58 AM

But Andrew- Calvin Coolidge generally ranks in the bottom half of most well known rankings of US presidents.

One of his better known wisdoms is something like:
Unemployment occurs when people are out of work.

Next thing we know- Paul H will be quoting from the wit and wisdom of Spiro Agnew... maybe something about the nattering nabobs of nogowingchun.

anerlich

08-18-2003, 04:59 PM

"One of his better known wisdoms is something like:
Unemployment occurs when people are out of work."

In that case, he's right up there with those other more recent paragons of the presidential or vice-presidental intellect, George W Bush and Dan Quayle. Or Gerald Ford - "Solar Energy is not something that can come in overnight."

Be proud.

Reagan was one of the most popular presidents ever in the US by many accounts. Some of not so fortunate as to live there however, cringed at how he broght the world closer to nuclear annihilation than anyone else since the Cuban Missile Crisis, and his complete cluelessness in dealing with Gorbachev.

Opinions vary, I guess.

yuanfen

08-18-2003, 05:51 PM

Andrew N: Dont want to go too far afield.

Anecdotally, on the campaign trail once- in San Antonio I think
when offered a tamale... Gerald Ford was about to eat the whole tamale without opening the corn husk!

Soon after the collapse of the USSR- I had the good fortune to be at a conference on Federalism with Mikhail Gorbachev in Calgary,
Canada. ((Didnt find any wing chun there at the time but the western Rockies with falling snow were breathtakingly beautiful)). In any case in a question and answer period Gorbachev said that he was very close to restablishing a more loose knit and more free federalism with all the USSR
member states and hoped that his seemingly positive relationship with the US would result in "timely" assistance to help with the economic problems which(togther with ethnic
issues/pressures) which contributed to the breakup. Unfortunately it was too little and too late.

PS- I am not engaging in any advocacy and hopefully bringing closure to this small diversion, cordially-

joy chaudhuri

John Weiland

08-18-2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Be proud.

Of course Americans are. Are Australians? If so, why?

Reagan was one of the most popular presidents ever in the US by many accounts.

Quite so. He won election twice by wide margins.

Some of not so fortunate as to live there however, cringed at how he broght the world closer to nuclear annihilation than anyone else since the Cuban Missile Crisis, and his complete cluelessness in dealing with Gorbachev.

The cluelessness is on the other foot if I may mix your metaphors. His "dealing" with the last soviet dictator Gorbachev brought about the end of half a century of Soviet tyranny and cold war impasse. A pretty impressive achievement and only one of Reagan's many. You should learn more about the man before you follow the left's popular front for character assassination and anomie, otherwise known as the Australian and British news media.

Regards,

PaulH

08-18-2003, 08:43 PM

Anerlich,

Ronald Reagan's greatness lies not in possessing great political intellect like Richard Nixon but rather in his deep understanding and love of the people. Some years ago, my housemate wrote a letter to him expressing concern on a certain issue. To his surprise, Ron wrote back a personal reply letter which I will quote in parts:

"I always enjoy hearing from my young friends across the United States. Thank you for writing to me. It shows you are interested in our nation's well-being and will always be a part of making life better for all our citizens.

Knowing I have your support and friendship certainly brightens my day. You have my best wishes now and for the years ahead. God bless you.

Sincerely,

Ronald Reagan

I realize that opinions do vary from different countries. Just want to equalize the injustices wrongly or rightly inflicted on this humble, loving, and most remarkable man in my lifetime.

Regards,