Some confusion on deadly vs sport

[red5angel]

I have been thinking about this problem, where kungfu guys claim their art is too deadly to put into the ring. Then you get the retort from others that if your good or it's good enuogh you can modify it to work in the ring. I can agree with that statement.

However, would I be correct in saying that since most kungfu schools don't teach the sportive aspects of the martial arts, that in fact quite a bit of what you learn is not apropriate for the ring? I was wrestling around with my wife the other day and it led to this conversation (yes that's right, when your married sometimes wrestling around only leads to conversation) about how there is a lot that I know about how to defend myself but when wrestling around for play, there is a lot I can't use for obvious reasons.
Of course if I wanted to kick my wifes ass everytime I could get more serious about BJJ and then use those submission techniques on her.
So, is there some truth in what these guys say? I know we all cringe when we here the "too deadly" label, but seriously, am I way off here?

[Chang Style Novice]

Sport, by definition, has rules and is made to be basically safe for the participants.

Sport, also by definition, is competitive and encourages the participants to work and train as hard as possible to win, and also generally provides plenty of opportunities to do so, and as we all know practice makes perfect.

MA for self defense does include dirty tricks inapporpriate for sport, but obviously you can't practice them the way you can techs that are appropriate for sport, therefore they will not be practiced to perfection the way the sport techs will (or can be.)

Can we close the thread now?

[Water Dragon]

Here's how I look at it Red. You can take the sport aspects, not train the "deadly" aspects, and be able to fight.

You can train the sports aspects, the train the "deadly" aspects as modifications to the sports aspects, and be able to do some really nasty things to people.

If you try to learn the "deadly" part without the sport part, it's not gonna work.

Example: Outside shoulder throw while grabbing the bicep = safe. Practice the throw a few thousand times, use it in sparring. Now you have the technique. Switch your grip to the forearm and you will break the arm on the throw.

Just practice setting up the grip on the forearm and you will never get the throw, which means you wont get the break. Why? You never made the technique "yours"

[Chang Style Novice]

Heh, apparently not. And just as well, 'cause those are good points you guys make.

[red5angel]

WD for the most part I agree with you. I don't know about training some of those "deadly" techniques for sport, some sure but not all.
I do however agree that someone who trains in TMA could definitely.

Is the argument just about a difference in training? I have no doubt that most sport types are tough as nails and could take me 9 times out of 10 no matter what thye are training because they have other things I don't, not just skill.

[truewrestler]

If you don't train to fight you will not be able to fight. It is just like flying a plane, playing baseball, building a house, etc. You don't wait till you have to do it to find out whether you can or not. You learn from practice and epecially from experience. There is no subsistute for performing a move countless times against an opponent who is trying to do the same to you in sparring/competition.

Sure there are things that should be learned outside of sparrring but if you can't even fight in a controlled environment, how do you expect to be able to fight in an uncontrolled environment.

[red5angel]

truewrestler, this is all pretty common sense, atleast most of us can sensibly admit that yes sparring goes along way as well as drilling.

[Water Dragon]

Red, it's all about developing a solid base. Making dsure your basics are down before you worry about the advanced stuff. If your BASICS (punch, kick, lock, throw) stink, how do you expect advanced stuff to work.

Read this article Red:

http://www.chung-hua.com/legends15.htm

[Judge Pen]

From what I'm reading it seems that every person who does not fight competitively respects the abilities of those that do. It doesn't mean that those who train hard and spar often (just not in the competitive environment) cannot defend themselves in an uncontrolled environment. It simply means that those who do not compete will probably not be able to defend themselves against a "trained fighter." So what? I don't have the time to train THAT way and I'll play the odds that a mugger or whatever doesn't either.

[red5angel]

WD, I am going to read the article now but I agree with you, it's all about the basics, can't have a house without a foundation. That's why some KF guys end up looking like boxers or muy thai guys in the ring, the basics are all essentiall the same, most of them don't train those advanced skills at higher levels as much as they should so they fall to basics.


edit: good article WD, I agree whole heartedly. I also feel that most KF guys don't train hard enough, meaning that most are hobbyists and even those who claim not to be most often neglect some important factors like working on strength and endurance.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Most traditional martial artists dismiss the very idea of a combat sport. Their claim is typically that in a real fight all means must be used to attack the enemy. Sporting competition develops poor habits for combat since it is bound by a set of rules. Traditional martial arts thus emphasize a large number of techniques that could never be made part of a safe sporting match - techniques such as eye-gouging, biting, groin attacks etc. etc. The emphasis on such hazardous technique makes live sparring and sport competition impossible.

The only alternative is to practice this kind of technique in a thoroughly artificial manner - by the use of repetitive forms, kata, imagination, no-contact "sparring," etc. The obvious problem with this approach is that students never get the opportunity to perform their techniques in the same manner in which they will do so in actual combat. The result is that they are no more experienced in the actual application of these techniques under the stress of combat conditions than anybody else.

How then, can they be expected to do well in the chaos and stress of a real fight? Imagine if a football coach attempted to train a team along analogous principles. He insisted that all training sessions involve no contact. Players were not allowed to run at full speed, nor could they engage in open play, but had to stop at the completion of each move. Essentially they would be training in a kind of slow motion, stop start, touch football. How could such a team hope to make the jump to a full power competitive game against a rival who trained in the normal manner? Yet this is very nearly what the traditional martial arts prescribes as its training methods to thousands of willing adherents.

All too often the unfortunate result is a student who has a grossly inflated sense of his or her combat readiness. When the shock and confusion of real combat is sprung upon them the result is almost always failure. Contrast this with the case of combat sports. By combat sports I mean those fighting styles whose nature is most closely associated with open sporting competition and which have an obvious combative heritage in so far as they involve the battle for physical domination over an opponent. This is made possible by the removal of hazardous technique that would make the sport unacceptably risky. So for example, Olympic wrestling is a classic combat sport. It has a set of restrictions on which techniques are legal and which are not.

One's initial reaction to the notion of a combat sport is that they are merely watered down martial arts. They are martial arts minus the really deadly techniques. As such they would appear almost by definition to be less effective in combat than a "true" martial art. This is in fact, a very naïve assumption. The removal of dangerous technique makes possible the use of full-power, live training (sparring) with the techniques that remain. This has an immensely beneficial result. It allows students to train in almost the same way they fight.

The importance of this point cannot be overemphasized. An axiom of the martial arts is this. The way you train is the way you fight. This simple point is very important. The successful application of a combat technique under combat conditions requires much more than a theoretical knowledge of that technique. In addition to knowledge of the technique itself, the student must possess a set of attributes that allow him or her to successfully apply the technique. Without the possession of these attributes the technique is very unlikely to succeed.

Attributes such as adequate strength and physical conditioning, speed, timing, presence of mind, body sensitivity, balance etc. etc. are necessary prerequisites to the application of a combat technique. The development of these attributes comes only from live training and sparring. This explains how a student of traditional martial arts whose training is limited to kata and cooperative training partners can never gain anything more than a superficial knowledge of a given technique. They know what the technique is supposed to look like, but they lack the necessary attributes to apply it under combat conditions.

Their understanding of the technique never progresses beyond the look of the technique and never passes into the feel of it. In this way can we explain the irony of the fact that combat sports that prohibit so much technique can be far more combat effective than "deadly" traditional martial arts that emphasize apparently dangerous techniques but never give the students the chance to practice them live.

The essential difference between the combat sports and traditional martial arts is that the latter emphasize technique alone, while the former emphasize the attributes required to apply the techniques they retain. Combat sports can do this successfully because they prohibit the techniques that make live training in the form of sparring and sporting competition impossible. This realization that success in combat requires far more than the memorization of the appearance of various techniques, but also involves the development of bodily and mental attributes that allow a student to apply these techniques in a real fight, is the key to understanding the success of combat sports. Consider the most well known combat sports - Brazilian jiu jitsu, judo, wrestling, sambo, shooto, San Shou , Western boxing and Muay Thai.

So then, in answer to our question as to which styles are those most effective we can reply that it is those that are combat sports. These allow students to train at something close to full power with the same techniques and strategy that they will use in real combat. As such they develop not just the superficial knowledge of the appearance of a given technique, but also the essential attributes and skills that enable a student to apply that technique in actual combat


-John Danaher

[lkfmdc]

Danaher mentioned San Shou, I'll have to send him a fruit basket....

[red5angel]

ST00 - I don't buy into having to use a technique on a resisting opponent for it to work. I think that is a lame attempt by "reality" and sport fighters to discredit those sorts of techniques. Put it this way, I have never used an eye poke against a resisting opponent until two weekends ago. Up til then it was all shadow boxing or dummy work. A freind of mine put on some goggles and we sparred and I have to say I did alright. So that BS doesn't fly with me.

[ShifuBinks]

Well my only problem with this whole thing is when you get cats that I feel are insinuating that competition is almost unethical or not something that a true martial artist would desire...to steal a quote from another forum I use to post on "An internal master has the same interest in competing as a shaolin monk does in night clubbing" or some such BS...now obviously this would mean that the master is VERY interested in competing, but of course this isn't what the dude meant. He assumed no master would have any interest in competition just because he himself doesn't have the balls for it....TOOLBOX! I apologize for my attitude but this has me really ticked off!

[ShaolinTiger00]

David,

The article from which it came:
http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html



however he forgot to mention us in this one:
http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jdanaherframe.html

Danaher is great. I'm reading "Mastering Jujutsu" right now! excellent book in the subject of mma and reality fighting (I should say "brawling" and not a fight for you life combative sense)

Red, you're entitled to your opinion. :) I'm not expecting to change anybody's mind here.. I'm just showing you where my rationale (and others who think along the same lines) comes from.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I agree.

Then what is the big deal about KF people saying they are limited by rules in competition? My styles uses copious amounts of elbows--standing up, on the ground, and in the clinch. Now, if I can't use my elbows in a match, then I cannot "fight like I trained."

I agree, which is why not all techniques are performed at "100% grappler power" in class. We use our elbows so that we get used to throwing them, but do not use enough power to seriously hurt out training partners.

That opens a different aspect of the discussion, and that's contact level.

[red5angel]

ST00 - sure I understand. Would you say you believe that unless a technique can be trained against a resisting opponent that it is basically useless?

[ShaolinTiger00]

red, I would say that in MOST situations (or for most techniques) that is what I believe.

? for u: do you not think that a combat sports guy isn't just as capable of the same "dirty" tactics if need be?

[Marky]

"He assumed no master would have any interest in competition just because he himself doesn't have the balls for it...."

There are plenty of good reasons to enter a competition. Social stimulation, enjoyment, an urge to improve and diversify, etc. HOWEVER, just as it's bad for a person to refuse to compete because they're afraid to fight, it's equally bad for a person to compete because they're afraid NOT TO FIGHT, and feel the urge to prove themselves for the sole purpose of feeding their ego.

As an example, I don't compete because it doesn't interest me. Nothing more than that. I'm not goind to compete just to prove to people that I can use what I've learned, because they shouldnt' care about what I do.

That being said, I think that a practitioner should be taught to be able to deviate from "normality". That is to say, they should be taught with control and light/medium contact when they're in the class. From there, they should be able to go heavier and more aggressively for the real world, AND they should be able to control what techniques they do and be able to compete in tournaments, etc. It's all about control, and to say you have the control to be more aggressive, but NOT the control to be less aggressive, is a serious gap in fighting ability from my perspective.

[red5angel]

ST00, I do believe that combat sport guys are more then capable of deadly techniques and dirty fighting. I don't know if it is this thread or not but I am confident most sport guys could kick my ass because they train much more seriously then I do. I am not trying to determine a right or wrong here. Sport fitghing is what it is, and combat fighting is what it is. The focus is different for the most part but I can understand both arguments. It's hard to compare the two when it comes down to it but the only real advantage I can see to training sport over combat, is that if you train sport you can fight more effecitvely in a sporting event. Make sense?

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
um.....Has anyone here ever played football? You do 90% limited- or no-contact drills to avoid injuries, and 10% full-conatct drills. Hell, you only wear full pads 1 day a week.

Go watch some Training Camp film sometime. :rolleyes: I can tell you flat out that in highschool we did not "only wear full pads 1 day a week" and we did have practice scrimages and the like starting out.

Training camp film? Would you happen to be talking about the NFL where players are being payed millions becuase they alredy know how to play football? ...after probably at least a 100 competitive games since they were kids?

You do understand that in striking sports the majority of your time isn't spent sparring/competing? You also train using proven methods developed for competition... just like Football practice was developed to make you better at football.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I was thinking about posting a similar topic. While there may be tournaments in Kookamonga that have no rules, MOST tournaments have limitations on techniques that are considered too dangerous to use.

Elbows to the back of the head
Elbows to the temple
Strikes to the throat
Strikes to the eyes
Knees to the head
Kicks to the side of the knee
Small joint manipulation (this is a UFC rule, so get over it. No one wants broken fingers)

If these techniques are used, there is a good chance someone will be seriously injured, and some of them could lead to death or coma.



Actually, all those techniques with the exception of "strike to eyes" are still allowed in MMA competitions in Brazil and other countries. They are not allowed in the US in order to get the Boxing Commisions to sanction the events although they were allowed in the US in the early MMA competitions. With rules such as these, only one fighter has died, and that was due to a pre-existing conditioning that should have been caught by doctors.

In essence, MOST tournaments do not have these limitations. The ones with the most exposure do, but they are in the minority. The only rules in early MMA comps and many still running today are:

1) No eye gouging
2) No fish hooking

[fa_jing]

I understand that a few fighters die every year in Muy Thai bouts. In Western Boxing, recently there was a death. San Shou in China doesn't allow spinning hook kicks to the back of the head because a few fighters died that way. Just because people haven't died in MMA doesn't mean that permissive rules are enough for safety.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
um.....Has anyone here ever played football? You do 90% limited- or no-contact drills to avoid injuries, and 10% full-conatct drills. Hell, you only wear full pads 1 day a week.

Go watch some Training Camp film sometime. :rolleyes:

I played football. Practice was made up of a lot more than 10% full contact drills. We had full contact every single day and my main positions were reciever and safety. The LB's and lineman hammered on each other a lot more than us. We won our division super bowl one year and were competitive other years.

[truewrestler]

By your rational, does Roy Jones Jr ever have to spar full contact anymore because he's been fighting his whole life? Roy Jones doesn't fight a dozen times a year. Did you read the thread about training in Thailand where not much if any sparring is done in practice since they generally fight competitively once or twice a month?

MasterKiller, you are really starting to get more than annoying... to the point where i wish I could reach through your ****ing monitor.

[MasterKiller]

Are you saying he does or doesn't have to spar full contact?

[truewrestler]

He DOES ya *******.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Did you read the thread about training in Thailand where not much if any sparring is done in practice since they generally fight competitively once or twice a month? How are NFL players any different? They go 100% 16 to 21 times a year, every week, for 5 months. Apparently, they don't have to practice 100% in order to do this, just like the Muay Thai fighters don't.

I'm just countering the analogy made by the author. NFL players do not practice levery down like they play. You dumb ****... I was making a ****ing analogy between the two.

[Archangel]

Red

It's been my experience that until you train a technique against a fully resisting individual, you won't have perspective as someone who does. There is so much to understand about distance, timing and how your body handles adrenaline. A person can be a great marksman and hit a bullseye from a 100 yrds away, however that doesn't neccessarily make him a good hunter.

Oh ya, this question is open to everyone; How do you train your lethal and crippling techniques anyways? How do you know they work?

[red5angel]

Archangel, in general I agree with you. I would also go so far as to say if you can find a way to train those techs with a partner then do so, for instance the buddy with the goggles thing I was talking about earlier. However, generally the contention is if you can't train 100% against a resisting opponent then you can't use the technique. I don't buy into that, you can't do it 100% otherwise there would be a lot of people in the martial arts world spending more time recovering from disabilities then actually training is all.
Anytime you train a potentially lethal attack, you cannot train 100%, because then most likely your training partner will end up dead or wounded.


truewrestler, I think masterkiller has a point on you there. Football players, even pro players have to train in full gear as near 100% a sthey can get from time to time, but they don't have to all the time to get the phat skeewz needed to play pro ball.

[lkfmdc]

Masterbating Killer is so funny and clueless its amazing. You know an arm bar will work because if the guy doesn't tap, it BREAKS. You know a choke works because if the guy doesn't tap, he goes to sleep. In San Shou, you know you can trap a kick because you've done it against a real kick.

You can't practice your "deadly" crap on a real resisting opponent so you can never simulate a real situation and thus, IT AINT GONNA WORK

MK, face it, you don't know at all what the hell you are talking about.... go back to those special magazines in the closet

[Shaolin-Do]

"How do you train your lethal and crippling techniques anyways? "

As MK said, go as powerfully as possible without hurting your training partner, and I also do conditioning and bag work on elbows, finger strikes, ect...
Heavy bag training is VERY important IMHO...

[red5angel]

Masterbating Killer is so funny and clueless its amazing.

Ironic seeing that that comment was followed by -


You can't practice your "deadly" crap on a real resisting opponent so you can never simulate a real situation and thus, IT AINT GONNA WORK

[lkfmdc]

Red Angel, you want to see how your stuff will play out under high stress situations? Look up a guy named Peyton Quinn who runs the RMCAT program. They don't care who you are or what your background is, they will put you in very real situations of self defense. They will simulate a real assault with all the stress. The guys attacking you are protected and they tell you to try ANYTHING you want on them....

He's been doing it for years and the results are always the same, traditional martial artists who think that they are the stuff flail meaninglessly and all they know goes out the door.....

TRY IT, then get back to me...

[lkfmdc]

Master idiot, come on down some day and I'll show you exactly how we do it.... oh wait, you lack teh B A L L S to ever do that...


It's pretty funny how you can't grasp a basic concept. I guess you think Judo and Jujitsu people can't really break your arm since they tap in their SPORT huh?

[truewrestler]

MasterKiller, I don't think he will dignify that with a response...unfortunately I will. Knowing that an armbar will **** up your arm is much like knowing a kick or punch will **** up your face.

Did someone have to show you or did they punch you in your face?

[lkfmdc]

Mater Killer was one of those guys that got beat up a lot in school, the kids could just sense he was queer, and so he turned to kung fu to make him feel good about himself. In today's modern world, all the BS about how secret kung fu tricks were going to protect him against the bullies of the world have been exposed for the crap that they are. Faced with the realization he can't punch his way out of a wet paper bag, he lashes out. The internet allows him to ACT tough, when he knows that in reality he is a GEEK. His low intellect doesn't even allow him to ponder the discussion, he believes in death touches but can't grasp the fact that a guy with about 6 weeks Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu would break his arm in under a minute.

[lkfmdc]

You know, just when you think Master Killer has posted the stupidiest thing any human being could ever post, he tops himself

Go on believing in your fantasy world....

[truewrestler]

MasterKiller, you do understand they don't have to tap don't you? You do understand that they don't want to tap don't you?

[ShaolinTiger00]

If they TAP, how will I know the arm was going to break? It's all conjecture after the TAP. In a real situation, there is no TAP, so how can a TAP possibly be realistic?

OH GOD STOP IT! I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE. MY RIBS ARE HURTING!!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

I was going to say that Master Killer must be mentally retarded, then I realized that would be a huge insult to the mentally retarded.... It's just amazine the level of dillusion some of these kung fu people have

[lkfmdc]

Master Killer tries desperately to cover his tracks

Face it dude, you were serious... and the world is laughing at you harder than ever

[MasterKiller]

Where is my delusion? Please, enlightnen me, professor. What have I said that in any way contradicts what you teach, other than that putting on boxing gloves prevents you from doing most Chin Na techniques?

The fact that you thought I was even remotely serious just strengthens my suspicions about your intelligence.

[red5angel]

give it up ikfmdc, when you start training in the martial arts you let me know what you learn.

ST00, I think Masterkiller is making a point, a valid point with all the claims of training 100%. When all of you guys who are training for "reality" admit that 100% is just a tad off from the truth, then maybe us KF guys will stop telling you we are too deadly to fight in the ring ;)

Masterkiller, unless your just really bored I wouldn't bother iwth ikfmdc, ST00 and truewrestler are worth the argument but not that guy.

[Archangel]

Red and MasterKiller,

There is a fundamental difference that I can see here. It isn't so much if the technique will work; It is however a question of if the technique will work FOR YOU. Proponents of full contact martial sports can see when they connect and actually knock someone silly; they can actually feel a joint before it pops and see there opponent tapping. That is fundamentally different then saying,

"Hey I tapped your goggles your blind now" or

"I hit your spine, you're crippled now"

I mean, what if you miss your target and your assailant keeps coming. By training only this way you'll never have the real feel of someone coming at you and trying to really hurt you like sport fighters do.

I'm not saying these techniques won't work; I'm saying that there is a much lower percentage of them working for you because they can't be trained at 100%.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect


I played football. Practice was made up of a lot more than 10% full contact drills. We had full contact every single day and my main positions were reciever and safety. The LB's and lineman hammered on each other a lot more than us. We won our division super bowl one year and were competitive other years.

I played football too. Mon, Tuesday and Wednesday was full contact. Thursday was shorts and helmets. Friday was our game. But, then again, we sucked and went 6 and 4.

[Ray Pina]

I am a "kung fu" guy by default: I've studied Hung Gar, Wing Chun, S. Mantis and now Hsing-I and Ba Gua.

While Studying Hung Gar/Wing Chun I stepped into the ring and slugged it out. I had tons of techniques (from forms and line drills) but always resorted to punching/kicking and trying to trap an arm when it presented itself. These usually turned into who lucked into better position, who was tougher, bigger. But I always gave it a go.

I step into the ring now, and size and luck still matter, but it's a world of difference. Now my training focuses on priciples, not "techniques". How to get power and from where, how to deal with rounded attacks, straight attacks, downward force, lifting force, collapsing force, ect. There are no "techniques", just trained responses to certain stimulous. I guess you can say that's technique, but the focus is on doing the right thing.

I compare it to chess. You can remember a few openings (technique) and do alright against a moderate level player. Or you can understand the game (principles), the way the board and pieces relate, principles like not stacking pawns, controlling files, and play against any opening -- even unexpected, unorthodox ones.

As far as the arguement of elbowing the temple, throat -- I don't like it. That is merely targets. I'm interested in the payload and what delivers it and how it does so. Targets can be changed. If you can't kick me in my balls or poke my eye, we're on even ground already. There should be no problems. If you're relying on some death touch what do you do in the winter against heavy jackets, when you're wearing gloves?

As for the ground game: I do this. You try to get me down I try not to let you get me down. Fare enough, right? Sometimes we both start on the ground for the fun of it, see where it goes. Please, don't set limitations to a living thing such as your training, and if you must, don't cast them so broadly onto others. My kung fu is doing just fine thank you very much. I wear boxing gloves and can still lock (when the opportunity presents itself), lay on my back and still strike. Room for improvement? You bet. Satisfied? Well, happy with what I got but want a lot more.

One last thought: wrestlers wrestle, boxers box, fencers fence. What is your school and what is it that you do? That is the question.

[red5angel]

I can't agree with "much lower" in regards to whether they work or not. I know if I can get to someones eyes and I put a finger in them, it's going to hurt and blind them in that eye or both eyes atleast for a few precious seconds. Hell even getting close to the eyes can do wonders in a fight. I don't need to actually gouge an eye or two out to know that. Once that is established then it is just a matter of getting to that spot and that can be trained as close as possible.
In sport fighting the training is much closer to the real thing because you can do exactly what you do in the ring, in training. I can go with that, however I don't agree that you have to train a technique 100% to make it work, or to even greatly increase it's chances. Every little bit counts of course.
Don't get me wrong, I am not disallusioned into believing if I get attacked I can just flick my fingers out and like magic they will connect with the opponents eyes and the fight will essentially be over. I expect a struggle and I train for it as best I can, but I am also not arguing whether sport or combat fighting is better then the other.
Someone who fights UFC is going to be able to fight in the street, no doubt about it. Most likely they are going to win their fights as well. However, I am getting tired of some of the hobbysit sport guys claiming they have something the hobbyist combat guys do not. It's a misunderstanding between what goes on in UFC or Pride or K1 and what goes on in the street.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by red5angel
Masterkiller, unless your just really bored I wouldn't bother iwth ikfmdc, ST00 and truewrestler are worth the argument but not that guy. LOL @ you guys. If you want to learn how to fight... talk to ikfmdc. If you want learn how to be a couch potato... talk to me :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

truewrestler, not sure if you understood what I was saying. ikfmdc seems like a waste of time. You and ST00 have some good input.

[truewrestler]

You guys just dismiss what he says. If you want to learn to fight, talk to him. I would venture to say he should be THE person you guys should be bringing your questions to about training and fighting.

I don't really know much about ST00 :)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler


I don't really know much about ST00 :)

ST00 = the Preydator

[red5angel]

truewrestler, 2 things about ikfmdc beyond and above anything else. His maturity is lacking, that may not be a sign of skill but some of that is reflected in his behaviour at all times and his approach to discussion is so far, lacking and undesirable.
He hasn't said anything to show he knows much about fighting at all except to parrot some of the things said around here by more rational members. Even if I wanted to learn to give someone a severe tongue lashing I wouldn't go to him. ;)
ST00 is a good guy fo rthe most part. I don't know him personally but he has been around on the forum off and on for a while now and he has some real good input and ideas. not only that but he is pretty level headed and can usually discuss intelligently and intelligibly.

[Ford Prefect]

Red,

He runs a successful fighter's gym in NYC. How does he not know anything about fighting?

[lkfmdc]

truewrestler, they do not want to learn the truth, what the currently believe is much more comforting to them.

For reference, I've trained

San Shou/San Da;
USASKF Pro SAN DA WORLD CHAMPION
USKBA Pro US San Shou Champion (cruiserweight)
5 Gold Medals, 2002 San Shou National Championships
3 Silver Medals, 2002 San Shou National Championships
2 members of US national San Shou team
ISKA Lightweight San Shou Champion
ISKA Light Welterweight San Shou Champion
2001 ICMAC San Shou Champion (70 KG)
2001 US Open San Shou Champion (70 KG)
2001 US Open San Shou Champion (60 KG)
2000 USA WKF National San Shou Champion (85 KG)
2000 USA WKF National San Shou Champion (60 KG)
2 Bronze medals, United World San Shou Championships
2000 ESN San Shou Champion (85 KG)
2000 USA WKF San Shou silver medalist (65 KG)

Kickboxing;
K.I.C.K. Northeast Kickboxing Champion (166 lbs)
N.E.A.K.F. Kickboxing Champion (159 lbs)

Boxing;
2002 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Finalist (Women)
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist (132 lbs)

Submission Grappling
Silver Medal, 2003 NAGA All American Championships
Bronze Medal, 1998 Gene LeBell tournament
Bronze Medal, 2000 NYC Grappler's Challenge

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by red5angel
truewrestler, 2 things about ikfmdc beyond and above anything else. His maturity is lacking, that may not be a sign of skill but some of that is reflected in his behaviour at all times and his approach to discussion is so far, lacking and undesirable.
He hasn't said anything to show he knows much about fighting at all except to parrot some of the things said around here by more rational members. Even if I wanted to learn to give someone a severe tongue lashing I wouldn't go to him. ;) Well, then you are making a big mistake

[lkfmdc]

you're oh so right Red Angel, I don't know nothing about no fighting.....

[Liokault]

lkfmdc



Boxing;
2002 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Finalist (Women)
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist (132 lbs)

Submission Grappling
Silver Medal, 2003 NAGA All American Championships
Bronze Medal, 1998 Gene LeBell tournament
Bronze Medal, 2000 NYC Grappler's Challenge




Looks like your guys like to come in second..........and in the streets that means DEAD!!!!








LOl only kidding guy.

[Water Dragon]

hi kkm

[red5angel]

sorry guys, just because he doesn't buy into traditional ways anymore doesn't make him a guru, his attitude far from points to that direction as well.
You might, MIGHT be a good fighter ikfmdc, but you apparently have a lot of growing up to do. To think you teach classes blows my mind but I just got away from an instructor who was a lot like you. Alot of ego, not enuogh of anything else. He has to do some growing up to do as well. Maybe if you give me your number I can pass it on to him and you guys can take some classes or something together ;)

[Archangel]

Red,

Well in my experience with boxing, the first time I ever sparred full contact in boxing I froze. The second I really got hit, I forgot everything I was trained to do and I began to flail like a girl. The first amateur fight I had the same thing happened, it wasn't quite as bad but the adrenaline dump I had to control was huge. Everything was moving so much faster than I remebered during training.

When you get to the street and stress levels are enormous, it was my sparring and my ring fighting that helped me deal with everything. If I didn't have that experience i probably would have flailed like I did the very first time I sparred in boxing.

[lkfmdc]

yeah, that's right Red Angel, all those titles, they are all just a fluke, I don't know nothing about fighting, not like YOU!

heh heh......

Cleopatra, Queen of Denial

[red5angel]

Archangel, as I said, for the most part I can agree with you, really, I think what you are saying makes perfect sense, except that I cannot agree with having to go 100%, 100% of the time.

ikmfdc, you do what you gotta do brother I just hope things change for you down the road.

[Water Dragon]

who the fock said 100 % 100 % of the time? Pro boxers don't even say that.

[ShaolinTiger00]

ST00 = the Preydator

I wish! Ronppl was a genius! & the Predator keeps ducking me..:)

Redangel, I may be reserved in my words (or verabl abuse ) than sifu Ross, but we're pretty synchronous when it comes to CMA, combat sports, etc.

I think this is due to the fact that we've done things the old way. We've done the forms, the weapons, etc and then we've moved on as our sifu's request (now you know the history of the style, prove to me you can apply it.) This is the way a master trained students and if you can't fight, you can't fight no matter what the format is.

We both obviously loved our kung fu heritage enought to stick with it, but we also know that there is a better way to become proficient and a better fighter. That is where modern training takes over.

The heritage remains where it matters, in the heart.
The spirit continues.

[red5angel]

It's been an argument going on around here for a while, just check out some of the threads. It seems some of our "reality" fighters are training 100% all the time.

[Archangel]

Where did you get that Red. I've never ever said that you have to spar or compete 100% all the time; no one would ever survive that. You do however have to go 100% sometimes.

[BAI HE]

2002 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Finalist (Women)
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist (132 lbs)

Didn't Max Chen (son of William C.C.) grab the gold
at one of these events? I think he's
won some San Shou events as well. Not bad for
a "Traditionalist."

[red5angel]

Archangel, agreed, the part where we disagree I think is that I don't feel all techniques have to be trained at 100% for obvious reasons, to work, and work fairly well, especially on the street.

[lkfmdc]

Red Angel, unlike you, I KNOW my skills are real, I run perhaps one of the most successful schools in the country, I have trained more champions than most here could ever hope to... I'm doing just fine. So you go on and enjoy your EE ticket in fantasy land

[ShaolinTiger00]

Since we're once again back to the subject of TCMA vs. Sanshou (in this instance) I'd like to bring uop another point of note.

Family.

Family & lineage is everything to tcma.

compare the "family" atmosphere in your local kwoon to a sport combat school.

miles apart in respect, loyalty, comraderie, and effort. They represent the spirit of the fight.


In this sense, san shou is much closer to the origin than many kungfu schools.

[red5angel]

Then why do you have to be such an ass? That's great and all that you want to run a successful school but on your off time you want to get on the internet? You tellin' me between training all these kick ass warriors you got nothing better to do then tell people they suck? What sort of advertising is that first of all? What do you get out of it second of all?

ST, I don't buy into the whole lineage thing anymore either. I had enough of that crap with the wingchun idiots. That's all about money as far as I am concerned.

[BAI HE]

Shaolin Tiger -

I thoroughly disagree. My group is a Family. Everybody
works together and everyone put's evryone on each others
shoulders. No jealousy, no ego, just sweat.

[ShaolinTiger00]

What sort of advertising is that first of all?

Most people, esp many martial artists, make poor fighters..

People attracted to a fighter's gym are much more aggressive, healthier, practical, they aren't expecting idealistic "one punch one kill" techniques and they certainly don;t really care to much about today's horoscope or their chi level..

[Archangel]

Red,

The techniques you do train at 100% will be the ones that you will rely on in a high stress environment. They will become instinctual and be a lot more natural to perform.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Baihe, I'm glad you are in good company. Compound that feeling of loyalty by two fold and you can imagine how tight a fighting team is.

That is not meant as a discredit to you, but these guys have more "on the line" than the typical practicioner. I'm sure you can imagine

[BAI HE]

Here's a few traditional guys that train fighter's

Tim Cartmell (also does BJJ now)

Mike Patterson

BlackTaoist

[red5angel]

ST00 agreed. But here is the deal. About 2 years ago I wanted to fight, sriously fight. Maybe not big time but I wanted to do some fighting in the ring. I met aguy I thought was going to teach me that. He started teaching me but I also started to discover the guy was a complete ass. His ego was too big to allow him to teach to the best of his ability and it gotin the way of me learning how to fight, Since then I have moved on but attitude says alot about who you are and what you can do. I don't believe in the one shot one kill crap, thats luck at best. I'm not looking for flowery and I am not looking for idealistic. I am aggressive, I love to fight, and I love to argue, if you haven't noticed. I am competitive and I train hard. But character says a lot to me about a person, you can't keep cool, stay collected and be the better man, then you're lacking something and I can oinly go so far learning from you.

[SanShou Guru]

Red and MK

As a coach with more San Shou experience and titles then IKFMDC (I believe his school has the 3rd most and soon to be second most all time) and been in the sport longer than just about anyone else in the US, I can tell you that IKFMDC does know what he is talking about. He has a large pool of good fighters, some with experience coming in and some raw at their start. His students are respected for their skill and I find most of them to be quite pleasant outside the ring.

IKFMDC does talk a fair amount of crap but his students have put up more then they have been shut up. He is passionate about the sport of San Shou and knows what it takes to win and he has learned from experience both good and bad as to what works and what doesn’t in the ring.

Say that ring fighting is not realistic is true but misleading. You say gloves limit your techniques. I would say this take a top san shou fighter like Marvin Perry and put him in street fight with a TMA. Marvin is insanely strong, kicks and punches faster then people 100lbs lighter than he is, is almost impossible to get to the ground and knows how to set up range, use angles, fakes, timing, etc.. Let’s say the TMA has been practicing his art for 10 years but never all out vs. a trained fighter but years of set counter drills have been done. Who do you think would win? Who would you bet on?

Last year I approached The Black Taoist about maybe fighting Marvin and it came down to he wanted to use open fingered gloves so he could use Bagwa palm strikes. I told him we didn’t care but nobody would sanction it and we wanted a title fight. Our students have to fight TMA fighters in the ring sometimes at tournament events. We call them “Kung Fu Daddies”. They have proven to be good warm up fights and I cannot think of a single time that the fight was even close. Fighting is SO much different then training that even a single fight win or lose and your whole perspective changes and training becomes easier and better. Do we spar 100% no because ewe spar 3-5 times a week and you body could not take that. Marvin does about 75% hands and 30% kick power. Otherwise we would all be injured. Training with gear on make you tougher not weaker. You can go harder and more realistically with gear on.

I’ll just say this; keep training only traditional methods and styles because it is just one more person I don’t have to worry about.

[lkfmdc]

Hey Guru, NY loves you too! :) Tell them the truth, in person I'm not so aweful.... LOL

[SanShou Guru]

IKFMDC is fine after your students beat some of his students. Now we are friends. Before then he drove me crazy also. He does do good shows and the November event in NJ should be excellent.

[red5angel]

We both obviously loved our kung fu heritage enought to stick with it, but we also know that there is a better way to become proficient and a better fighter. That is where modern training takes over.

ST00 and Sanshou Guru - ST, I didn't see this post and I can certainly understand this point you made. I use modern methods to train as well as traditional and for me they both have their place. I dont have a beef with the methods of training, except when people dismiss things out of hand. Forms have their place, they are not the end all to be all by any means, and are certainly a "drill" in my book if anything else, although most modern fighters may call it "shadow boxing".

[SanShou Guru]

Yea I love forms. Our head coach Jason Yee was on the US National team twice for forms and once for fighting. They are great for conditioning and the rooting drills can greatly improve your power. The problem is too many people think that just that is enough to make you dangerous. It does, but only to yourself.

I competed in Hing-I for years and want to get back to forms now that I am done fighting.

[red5angel]

actually I agree with you there. There is alot in the TMA world that people mistake for the ultimate in training needs. Ask a wing chun guy if he spars and he will tell you yes he chi saus. It's not sparring, it's not realistic, but most of those guys think its enough, until they get clobbered by someone who knows what they are doing.

Sanshou, are you saying that you "gave up" traditional ways to fight and are now returning to them after you are done fighting? Does that mean you believe that traditional ways of fighting are obsolete?

[SanShou Guru]

Forms and San Shou were always different programs for us.

For San Shou we trained with what worked best taditional or not. Hsing-I gave me the root and centerline dominace to drive Cung Le crazy when I fought him. Even almost beat him a couple of times with it. But I cannot think of a single instance in 13 years that we did an application that was true to the traditional from as you would see it performed in a normal Form (i.e. Hsing-I, etc.). Priciples, yes, shape, no.

Does that make sense?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SanShou Guru

For San Shou we trained with what worked best taditional or not. Hsing-I gave me the root and centerline dominace to drive Cung Le crazy when I fought him. Even almost beat him a couple of times with it. But I cannot think of a single instance in 13 years that we did an application that was true to the traditional from as you would see it performed in a normal Form (i.e. Hsing-I, etc.). Priciples, yes, shape, no.

Does that make sense?

To me, that sounds like traditional Kung Fu. At least how I'm being taught. My teacher likes to say that, "Good Kung Fu looks like $hit"

[red5angel]

Sanshou, yep, I am not sure I have to think on it a little but I believe that is basically how I feel about kungfu in general. I don't believe that it's going to look pretty or flashy or that it is going to resemble the forms in anyway. I am also mind you, most likely not going ot be defending myself against a sanshou pro ;).
A good example is about a year ago at a party I had to stop some guy from trying to hurt me. He was fairly drunk I was almost sober. I got him backed into a corner using what I felt was wingchun, things I had learned in wingchun. My wife recognized it as such, but other then that you might consider it sloppy or what not, however, it worked.

Let me ask you this, if you trained in Hsing I as hard as you trained in sanshou, do you think you could hold your own against the sanshou guys?

[lkfmdc]

I guess what a lot of you don't see in me is WHY I love San Shou. I see it as the saving grace of Chinese martial art, ie a modern way to train effectively in Chinese martial art. And that has everything to do with PRINCIPLES....

As I have said, a lot of things associated with "kung fu" are outdated, inefficient and unscientific... The PRINCIPLES are not in any of those categories

San Shou is San Shou because of principles. Outsiders often fail to see that, but inside the community it is well understood. Sanshou Guru's fighters are bad ass in a large part because of the strategic method by which they fight based on traditional principles.

Bridges, gates, "lin waan", center line, 7 energies, etc all are essential to real San Shou....

Thus, I'd have to give a big HELL YEAH to Guru on that post

[Archangel]

Can either one of you -lkfmdc or Guru explain implementing a principle such as 7 energies into fighting. What techniques do you use to apply them?

[SanShou Guru]

Wow I will have to think on that one. I'll get into it Monday.