New Inside Kung Fu Mantis Article

[loki]

I just finished reading the article entitled "Searching for the meaning of mantis". I apologize in advance for coming off as offensive and too critical but I feel the article was a waste of paper. Sifu Cottrell , it took you and your students to have to go all the way to China to find out and "conclude" that Hong Kong mantis was influenced by southern boxing forms? I thought everyone knew that already. Even Law Fat Man's Jing Yow Pai took on some of the southern flavor in Hong Kong. If you are going to write an artilcle give people something to chew on. Give the people who can't make the trip to china something that they otherwise would not be privy to unless they actually made the trip themselves or were told by someone who did.

Don't write a 1,000 words in an article for something that could be said in 10 words, heck, that's already been discussed on this forum. You can go to several websites and get that information. In other words, tell us something we don't know.

[Brad]

Sifu Cottrell , it took you and your students to have to go all the way to China to find out and "conclude" that Hong Kong mantis was influenced by southern boxing forms?
I sure didn't :eek: But then again, I'm not a mantis person, and neither is most of Inside Kungfu's readers.

[loki]

The article is entitled "Searching for the meaning of Mantis". Who would be searching for the meaning of mantis? A mantis practitioner. Obviously, the article is geared toward those readers who are mantis practitioners. If it was meant for the general readership then I'm afraid that this article probably went over many people's heads since many things written in the article assume that the reader already has some knowlege of what is being spoken of.

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Brad,
There are a lot more Mantis practitioners out there that read Inside Kungfu then you think. Anyhow I agree with Loki
the article didn't say much in terms of anything new.

[Mr.Binx]

Rules are very simple here: be respectful of others. In general, this means don't slander or libel another school, instructor or person; don't use abusive language;

The above quote is from the forum rules (http://www.kungfuonline.com/forum/rules.html) that you agreed to abide by while posting on these forums that kungfu magazine has provided for us. I would suggest that any beef you have with Sifu Steve Cottrell or the editors of the magazine you are referring to be taken up through personal channels. Your post refers simply to your displeasure with an article you read in a magazine. I see no positive outcome to the active discussion of tanglang coming from such a post. This forum was provided to us for a mature and positive discussion of tanglang. If you do not wish contribute, please be courteous with other members who read these forums and do not detract from it. Thankyou for your attention.

[GOT'EM]

It sounds like ray and loki are jealous.They are jealous because they do not have the credibility and respect that Sifu Cottrell has throughout china.We are the only school in the U.S. that has trained with Master Li Dalin and Master Yu Yong Shum.Both you guys hide behind the computer and run your mouths.You are'nt offering anything new yourselves so find something else better to do than attacking my sifu and my school.This forum is for people who to share information,learn about other styles of mantis,etc.If you have a personal problem then you should handle it personally.I'm in fort worth,texas if you ever decide to come down.

[ursa major]

Easy does it Mantis brothers. Please let us not fall victim to fractious and devisive behaviour.

Best Regards,
UM.

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Got'em,
Nothing could be further from the truth I think you should go back & re-read what I said.... I'm not sure if you realized it or not but Mr Cottrell didn't even write the artical in the first place....:eek: ( It was written by one of his students Heath Mc Crady. ) LOL:D.... & for the record all I did was vioce my opinion on how I felt about the subject no more no less....
Why are you making more out of it then there has to be?....

Peace:D

[BeiTangLang]

Which issue are you guys talking about? I'd like to read it myself.

[Xdr4g0nx]

Septmeber's issue

[GOT'EM]

Ray,I think you should go back and reread what your buddy loki posted.That's the reason why I posted what I did earlier.Sifu Cottrell did'nt even write the article.So why did loki address him instead of the person who wrote it,Heath McGrady?You noticed that the article was written by someone else,but you agreed with loki's statements addressed to Sifu Cottrell?So you and loki's issue is with the article written by Heath McGrady and not Sifu Cottrell.......right? :cool:

[mantisben]

Originally posted by loki
If you are going to write an artilcle give people something to chew on. Give the people who can't make the trip to china something that they otherwise would not be privy to unless they actually made the trip themselves or were told by someone who did.
I thought the article was great. It didn't go into detail of the differences between the different PM styles as much as I would have liked it to, but I don't think it was supposed to.

I envy (it is a sin, but still...) that Sifu Steve Cottrell and his school could go to China and have the privledge and blessing to be able to train with the Masters in Mainland China in 3 different locations (Yentai, Shanghai, and Ching Dao?). Man, that ROCKS!!! Fortunately, Sifu Cottrell and the author Heath McGrady were generous enough to share photos, and what little knowlege of the experience they could, in the space provided to them by "Inside Kung-Fu".


Don't write a 1,000 words in an article for something that could be said in 10 words, heck, that's already been discussed on this forum...

I, for one, didn't know that HK PM was heavily influenced by the Southern styles of Kung Fu. According to the article, 2 Masters in 2 provinces(?) said "Nan Chuan" was the influence. You already knew this fact, but my knowledge of PM isn't as extensive as yours, judging from your previous posts. This was a revelation to me.


You can go to several websites and get that information. In other words, tell us something we don't know.

You know better than to believe any-ole-thing on a PM web-site you read. If Sifu Steve Cottrell goes to China and gets informed by 2 different Masters that HK 7*PM appeared to be influenced by "Nan Chuan", I'm more apt to believe it because to me (I can't speak for anyone else) he is a credible source of knowledge about PM Kung Fu.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Which issue are you guys talking about? I'd like to read it myself.

The newest issue of IKF. Sifu posted it on the website about the article being in it.

http://www.authentickungfu.com/important_events.html

I myself have not read it yet, I will try to get over to the bookstore and check it out.

[MantisifuFW]

Mantisben,

The article was actually written and submitted to IKF three years ago about our trip in 2000 and they did not see fit to publish until now. It was supposed to be a companion piece with our article on Wong Long's memorial. The topic and scope of the piece were suggested by IKF prior to its being written.

At that time, no one here in the states knew much about the personalities and locations associated with Qixing Tanglang on the mainland and no one from the West had ever, trained with all three major branches of mainland Qixing Tanglang. (We continue to be the only one's doing this).

The point of the article was to introduce these talented masters and to show that there was not just modern wushu on the mainland. (A question that was being asked quite a bit three years ago when we went to the mainland and is still being asked despite having people like Shifu Tunks on this very forum).

More importantly, the article was meant to point out that if you are lucky enough go to visit such masters bear in mind that it is not just them that is being examined; it is just as much you. We were being studied even as we learned about them. They were men of profound knowledge, pride and ability in their own styles of Tanglang. They were not there to be examined by us; they were there to share what they knew and in doing so, they were examining us to see if THEIR beloved Tanglang had survived its trip to Hong Kong and the West.

As I have waited for this article to be published before submitting others I personally have not written further on the subject. Instead I have started the Mantis Quarterly as it seems very difficult to get a lot of Tanglang material out through regular media channels.

Actually, like you, I have had several sifu write me to ask about the Nan Quan influence in Hong Kong Tanglang as they were unaware of it. Some in fact resented the analysis and disputed with me about there being any Nan Quan influence.

So, on one hand, you have folks like Loki and RAYNYSC who are angry because they already knew the Nan Quan connection, could not care less about the personalities in China or the divisions of styles there we discribed or the story of the First-of-it's-kind-ever-done trip to train with these great men and just want MORE for themselves and then you have those who dispute the Nan Quan connection, resent it being made by anyone, mainland or otherwise and don't think that those on the mainland are qualified to make that analysis. Neither group will ever be satisfied. I obviously did not intend the article for them.

In the middle there is the great majority of people who enjoy the story about the journey, find the interaction between the Westerners and the Chinese masters interesting and now know that there is research into the nature of Tanglang being done there on the mainland also. In a way, we are ALL asking the same questions.

I have more to say on this but I must go back to work.

Thanks for your kind comments and confidence in our work.

Sincerely,
Steve Cottrell

P.S. For those who don't know about the Quarterly, see
www.mantisquarterly.com

[MantisifuFW]

Loki,

I know that you do not care about the teachers written about in the article or their willingness to share what they know. But it is the only article in a major martial arts magazine to tell about a truly great master who is no longer among us, Kang Zhiqiang, Shifu Brendan Tunks' teacher. Such was noted in the article by Dave Cater the Editor of IKF.

In your stupid haste to find something to criticize about me and my work you have revealed so much about yourself in that you would not even acknowledge his passing or the brief tribute to him that the article represents. If for nothing else I am proud to have known him and to have made the Western world more aware of his life.

I sincerely hope that there is no one else out there who acts with so little class as you have. When articles are written that include statements of tribute to your teacher, I hope that no one says that it is "not worth the paper it is written on".

Steve Cottrell

[NPM]

Although I have not read the article in IKF yet, if I am not mistaken, from the recent posts it sounds like some masters in Mainland China criticized HK 7*Mantis as being heavily influenced by "nan quan". I would like to make a few comments about that.

I would not want the readers to think that HK Mantis was altered or changed to be more like southern styles. If you say that there were changes made, there may have been some cosmetic changes that might make some Mainland practitioners think we are doing our forms with a southern flavor.

First in regards to stances, the teaching style in HK favored lower and more solid stances. Traditionally, the Mantis style relied heavily on the Siu Dung Sahn Sik or Small Hill Climbing Stance where the back knee is kept bent and the heel slightly off the ground. However, in HK, many sifus favored the stability of the full Dung Sahn Sik or Hill Climbing Stance or in Southern China what they call Bow and Arrow stance when they teach. This can be pointed out as being a southern influence.

Secondly, in HK, many sifus placed emphasis on focusing after each movement vs linking several movements together in the early stages of learning. There were many practitioners who retained that flavor when doing their sets although advanced practitioners would be able to link several moves together. Over the years, I have seen many so-called masters in the States performing HK 7* forms with heavy southern style flavor and I think this is mostly due to their own cross training with southern styles or from previous southern style training.

Now I do not know which forms Sifu Cottrell's students performed in front of the Mainland China masters nor do I know what level of study they have accomplished that would lead these Masters from China to think HK Mantis was southern influenced. But I do believe that at an advanced level, HK 7* Mantis should not look like a typical southern style or what he claimed "nan quan".

As for anyone who has seriously trained in Mantis under the LGY and WHF lineage, you should know that what you have learned or what you practice is nothing like southern styles. I know with confidence that everything passed down to me through the LGY and WHF lineage is the Mantis style. Although there may be some differences in appearance or flavor, when it comes down to it, mantis is mantis whether it be from HK or the Mainland. The movements and fighting strategy all fit within the parameters for what is required for the Mantis style. The usage of simultaneous hand and leg techniques, the always changing of angle or direction of attack, our core theories are all still Mantis.

NPM

[mantisben]

Originally posted by NPM

...
Traditionally, the Mantis style relied heavily on the Siu Dung Sahn Sik or Small Hill Climbing Stance where the back knee is kept bent and the heel slightly off the ground.
...

NPM
Is the "Small Hill Climbing" Stance aka "Monkey Stance"?

If it is, then that is 5 different names I've heard for this stance. The other 3 being "Fighting" Stance, "Forward" Stance, "Middle" Stance, and "Monkey" Stance.

I love this stance...

[Nick8stepPM]

Well despite those who didn't like the article i liked it, and it was a very insightful article. Even though my style is 8 step preying mantis, the article was still a very good read, full of information other people might not have known as we have already determined in this thread.

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantisben

Is the "Small Hill Climbing" Stance aka "Monkey Stance"?
Different stances.

N.

[Wang Rui Xuan]

I' m a new member here and generally really enjoy the posts. I also think it's perfectly valid to raise questions, critically analyze things, and state opinions. I also think it's important to avoid sounding condescending and maintain an element of class.

Peace out,

WangRuiXuan ;)

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
... In the middle there is the great majority of people who enjoy the story about the journey, find the interaction between the Westerners and the Chinese masters interesting and now know that there is research into the nature of Tanglang being done there on the mainland also. In a way, we are ALL asking the same questions...

Sincerely,
Steve Cottrell


Count me in 'the middle' then.

Many of us cannot travel while others do not have the time and/or ability to make such exotic trips to visit these icons of TangLang. I for example cannot take a break from my regular routine I have all the normal excuses wife, kids, job, mortgage etc... hence the closest I am ever going to come to visiting China and these incredible TangLang Masters is by reading of the exploits of others who did.

MantisifuFW I congratulate you on three levels one, first for your willingness to absorb the financial cost of travelling to China for the sake of increasing your kung-fu, second for your willingness to submit to others for the sake of increasing your kung-fu and third for taking the risk of making your experience public for the sake of increasing our kung-fu.

Regards,
UM.

[loki]

I started this thread right before I went away on vacation last week so I had not been able to read all the feedback until now. I must say I am not at all surprised by the responses.

I apologized prior to writing what I felt so I'm not going to do so again. I said what I felt and I will not retract any of it.


GOT'EM, the same 'courtesy' you have extended toward me I extend to you in return, I'm in Brooklyn, N.Y. :rolleyes:




I know that you do not care about the teachers written about in the article

Sifu Cottrell, My dislike of the article had nothing to do with the teachers you trained with. My problem with the article was not so much the content but more specifically the conclusion. It was my opinion on an article that I read in a magazine I purchased.


In your stupid haste to find something to criticize about me and my work

Sifu Cottrell, I have no ill-will toward you, your school or any of your students. There are some things I could say but I refrain from doing so because it would serve no purpose.

Again, I stated my opinion, no more, no less. It was not a personal attack ( although I knew some would take it as such ) on anyone. All the northern styles that came to us via Hong Kong share a southern flavor in the way the power is generated as displayed when the forms are played. Some are not as apparent as others but the influence is there. It can even be seen in the Ying Jow Pai system. Apparently, not too many people were aware of this and some are denying that such an influence even exists. In this respect, I guess I was wrong. I assumed it was common knowledge amongst HK mantis practitioners ( I'm not talking about beginners ) .

Sifu Cottrell, If the article served it's purpose then who cares what
I say. Personally, I expected more but that is just my opinion. Perhaps next time, eh?:)

[RAYNYSC]

To Mr Cottrell & Got'em,
Why are you making more out of it then there has to be. :confused:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Brad

I sure didn't :eek: But then again, I'm not a mantis person, and neither is most of Inside Kungfu's readers.

:werd: i didnt know. cause im not a mantis person either.

[YinYangDagger]

From an outsider looking in, with NO PM training whatsoever (yet), it looks like loki is just being an a$$hole...

just MY opinion...

oh yeah, this isn't a personal attack, just responding to what I read on here :D

[YinYangDagger]

Shanghai_kids post (requested for deletion) that this post was in reply to:
[shanghai_kid
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9
Yinyang dagger

That thread has been dead since ..what's the date on the last post before yours ..October 2003? 8 months ago?

So you were looking back at threads 8 months ago and just happened to see that particular one ... and felt the sudden urge to post afresh to call Loki "an a$$hole".

Sir, I admire your bravery in then putting this statement on there - "oh yeah, this isn't a personal attack, just responding to what I read on here ".


Loki had full rights to critique the article. And saying that it's low to critique it becuase it mentions a deceased teacher inside is way off the mark.

It is not for any of us to be commenting on Sifu Tunk's master. And it's certainly not for any of us to use his name to defend our writing ability. That's low class!
]


"That thread has been dead since ..what's the date on the last post before yours ..October 2003? 8 months ago?"

And? Your point??

"Loki had full rights to critique the article."

And I have full rights to call it as I see it. This is a PUBLIC forum, that's still readable regardless of date. You don't like it? Don't read it.

[cerebus]

Well, Loki DID come across as aggresive and rude for no apparent reason. Also, just because he and his friends knew the info contained in the article doesn't mean everyone else does (I didn't and I've been reading articles & books about PM since the early 80s). Oh well. Later.

;)

[loki]

Wow!

It must feel real good cursing people out from the safety and comfort of your home...er, state:rolleyes:


You haven't started learning mantis yet , correct ? Well, I'll tell you what, start your training, practice very hard and whenever you want, come to Brooklyn and look me up.

[YinYangDagger]

:rolleyes:

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by loki
Well, I'll tell you what, start your training, practice very hard and whenever you want, come to Brooklyn and look me up.

Out of curiosity, where in Brooklyn are you? What name or school would one look up to find you?? Its not exactly a small place.

[YinYangDagger]

The thing that I don't get is loki comes on here out of the blue and slams an article that I happened to enjoy. He has opinions, as do I. My opinion (of him sounding like an a$$hole) stems directly from his rant about the aforementioned article.

You reap what you sow.

[BeiTangLang]

I know, I know,..but as was posted, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. So, if you guys don't mind, lets just let this thread go back to resting.

[loki]

Hello Bei,

I train under Sifu C. Albright in Sunset Park Brooklyn, N.Y. I am also the asst. instr. for Sifu. The school is on 46th st. and 4th ave. Once you're in NYC find your way to the nearest MTA train station and take any train that will allow you to make a connection to a Brooklyn downtown train to the 45th street stop. The school's a block away. We actually rent space there so if there is going to be any beef we would probably have to arrange for a different location.

Let me be clear on this, I am not making any challenges. That's not my style. I train for the love of the art and for self defense. I don't go around looking for trouble. However, I have to say that not too many people would call me an a-hole to my face without some type of resolution afterwards. Criticizing a martial arts article on a Kung Fu forum is one thing, cursing someone out is quite another.

Bei, I'm surprised you haven't locked this post down, what with all the stuff you've said before about this type of behavior on the forum. I mean, I don't recall RAYNYSC calling anyone any names and you shut down a few of his threads. Is there some kind of double standard going on here. After all , YY is from Texas right? And he is planning on visiting your Sifu (whom I have nothing against) right?, HMNNN...

Anyway, you don't have to shut it down, lest someone might think I'm sensitive to name calling. I'm not sensitive at all, I just know that if it was face to face it wouldn't hapen. In New York, people are very carefull who they curse out on the street. Maybe it's different in Texas.

If u need any more info contact me privately.

Peace.

[BeiTangLang]

I try not to do double standards& indeed I shall lock the thread down. Did not know you were a sifu either! Glad to know where you are in case anyone gets a chance to visit.
Take care & best wishes.
~BTL