Does "martial" relaxation training= Snake Oil? + Adrenal Training

[Black Jack]

This thread is not about how relaxation methods are futile on their own as I believe they have health merits but it does question those systems or training approaches where the whole martial method is anchored in being as relaxed as possible.

Under real world violence your body will tense up. You can walk
around the kwoon in slow mo all day long grasping the sparrows tail but it will not stop your body from responding to that extreme stress with our pre-programmed "flight or fight" response mechanism. This mechanism being the one which has the capacity to alter muscular, hormonal, and mental states under extreme stress so we can face that threat with a greater degree of force.

When faced with a stressor the brains hypothalamus is activated and sets in train a series of hormonal reactions which lead to the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline from the adrenal medulla to the bloodstream. The pituitary gland gets into the act by releasing adrenocorticotropic hormone which when circulated through the kidneys is converted into cortisol. The cortisol stimulates the livers release of the body's principal fuel, glucose.

How does a "soft" stylist purpose to relax when the psychological effect of this stress reaction is tensing up and often very debilitating as well as empowering?

With the blood draining to your muscles there is a danger of going into shock and being mentally paralysed by the unfamiliar sensations occuring in the body. Tensing up, confusion, anxiety, and even physical weakness can occur. So why fight the body's natural reaction to a stressor?

Why not take advantage of this natural response like a lot of fighting hard stylists who incorporate forward drive, tension, and sparring or those like at Peyton Quinns academy who work with reality based adrenal stress training?

Again this is just a question and it does not concern the healing methods of relaxation, be it chi kung, pranayama yoga, Gurdjieff exercises, Russian breathwork, meditation, weightlifting or even a cup of warm cup of tea.

[Water Dragon]

Go ask Max Chen

[Black Jack]

So are you saying that this Max Chen is able to shut off his hypothalamus gland if some wackjob with murder on his mind is trying to stab him to death?

You don't even have to go that far, you get a burst of the same response by even getting close to a fight, we have all been there, a situation where you and some unkown person are about 3 cat hairs from exchanging blows, but your verbal judo gets you back into the car and out of there safe and sound, no physical harm but man oh man your hands are shaking like hell on the steering wheel.


Just for the record it was not just a stab on tai chi, it was just an example, for all I know certain people may do there tai chi very different from the general crowd, maybe guys like shooter, but it also includes systema, aikido, or any method were it is very anchored in remaining as relaxed as possible.

[Water Dragon]

I'm saying that you can learn to relax under pressure in a fight. It creates a "thinking" fighter. I can't explain it, but I do know the training works. At least in William CC Chen's system. But then, we were learning to relax with people trying to punch us in ther head.

[Christopher M]

Like any other thing in the martial arts, it takes specific, goal-oriented training.

[Laughing Cow]

BJ.

Not sure what exatly you are asking.

IMA tend to be "relaxed" even during combat, now this is not a limb totally relaxed state as so many would assume.

Also forget that the forms are only the initial training stage where you develop correct attributes and body mechanics.

Later on the pressure gets turned up during Fast forms, 2-man forms (if available), Tui Shou, San Shou and other practices.

That naturally being if you learn from a good teacher.

Cheers.

[Fred Sanford]

the more often you get into situations where you get big adrenaline dumps the better you will learn to handle them.

[Black Jack]

But then, we were learning to relax with people trying to punch us in ther head.- WaterDragon

Thats a good way to learn as any.:D

The key to a response mechanism lies in the nature of the training. In unarmed combat training IMO there should be just enough stress to provoke an adrenal reaction so the player becomes more accustomed to fighting under such conditions as best he can under relative "safe training" conditions.

I think that is a key term there. Relative safe training conditions. Conditions which as we all know do not address what happens psychologicaly in an outside enviroment to the total degree. I understand trying to maintain some relaxation and flow to one's training but striving to remain locked on the idea of relaxed and peacefull in motion as if you have a choice to your rythem when biological science says otherwise is IMO a bit futile for the common joe if not for darn "near" everybody. This being specific to an outside-unknown enviroment where those safe training conditions can no longer apply. Where you no longer can feel comfortable.

I think you see this best when some gents who are wathcing a traditional tourney go...."that does not look like gong fu.....that looks like kickboxing!!!!"

Why......well maybe because it has to do with the stress reaction and that under these forces of stress and fear a fighter is deprived of much of his capacity for rational and decisive thought and resorts to more instinctive gross motor physical actions.

Thoughts?

[yenhoi]

Well, yeah.

But the more you work in high-stress conditions, the less the chemicals have an 'automatic' affect on your system and muscles etc as a whole, no?

So long term [correct] training (over years) with relaxation and calmness and control etc in mind (and in practice and application) should result with more and more 'relaxation', 'calmness', and 'control' in those sorts of higher stress situations?

There is a difference between tensing up in addition to being in (and affected by) a high stress situation, and not tensing up but still being in (and affected by) a high stress situation?

;)

[Christopher M]

How is this any different than someone saying "Everytime someone grabs me I lock up and start breathing heavy and get exhausted, so isn't BJJ useless?"

Or: "Everytime someone takes a swing at me, I just flinch bigtime: close my eyes, tense up and retract my guard, so boxing is clearly useless."

??

[yenhoi]

BJJ and Boxing are Martial Styles that emphasize relaxation just as much as any other martial style you could name.

FYI.

I dont think there is really such thing as a soft style.

:eek:

[Black Jack]

Aikido, Systema and Tai Chi have a deeper core of relaxed elements. Lets not beat around the bush.

Take the flinch for example. It is a often natural response in a suprise situation. You are not going to send it away unless you are into rewiring yourself with biofeedback. You can turn the flinch into a defensive measure though by addressing it and doing some modifications to the response.

An example would be to use it as a cover. Kinda like a silat bone-shield or high boxing guard.

I am not saying that using relaxation principles are bad, just that the body gives us a different roadmap to work with, having a whole approach bend against that grain seems to be going up a hard road.

[Christopher M]

You're not gonna train away the flinch? Really? :eek: :confused:

[Black Jack]

Who would want to train away the flinch? All I am saying is that you can address it like a guard. I want the flinch. Give me more flinch.

[yenhoi]

I think those systems do alot of talking about relaxation, the point of the matter is correct body mechanics and body mechanic principles.

A seasoned stylist from one of those 'arts' wouldent tell anyone there is no muscle or tension involved.

I think the flinch has much to do with awareness more then anything else. If you're surprized, then your surprized.

:confused:

[Christopher M]

I guess it depends what you mean by flinch.

It you mean becoming tense, tightening up your posture, withdrawing, and closing your eyes... then I don't want it. I'd love my would-be assailants to have it though.

[yenhoi]

Ive trained the flinch into: punch, tan sau, bong sau, and fook sau, etc, not in any order, except punch always comes first.

strike!

:eek:

[Christopher M]

If you can do that then couldn't you make your "flinch" reflex to be dropping and opening your shoulder blades, suspending your head, hanging your elbows, opening your palms, relaxing your lower back, settling your knees, and otherwise adopting a functional "extended relaxation"?

[yenhoi]

If thats at me, then sure. I dont know what will really pop out of me, mine were just examples.

I still say there is no such thing as a soft style, just good mechanics and good principles, which are universal accross all continents, cultures, and so-called "arts."

Like the pagan MP says.

:eek:

[Christopher M]

Directed at anyone who thinks "martial relaxtion training" is snake oil. :p

As for "soft style", I'm not sure where how you're choosing to categorize things. I know that there's certainly different training methods in the martial arts, and I know that you will get only what you train for. Dunno how that leaves our beleagured "soft styles." Depends on how you're choosing to look at things.

[Royal Dragon]

Soft styles generally deflect, Hard generally block force on force.

Tension is a state of mind. I like to use the Race car driver example as I have some experiance with high performance driving (Illegal street). A high performance driver is generally very calm, relaxed, and emotionally disconnected from the driving. His mind is alert, an focused on the feel of his car, and guiding it through the course. If he was tense, nervious or scared, it would interupt the "Flow" he needs to unanimously blend with his car, and he would not be capable of controlling it saftly at high speeds. Normal people cannot drive 150, or even close without feeling gripping waves of panic. They are way to tense to ever accomplish such a feat, they are not relaxed enough.

Fighting is just like this. If you can Achive the "Race Car Mind" as I like to call it, you will be calm and relaxed inside reguardless of the level of brutality and violence you are exibiting outside. The goal in fighting is not to train your reflexes to take advantage of the way you naturally react when you are being scared, startled or over whelmed, it's to develop the "race car mind" where going 150 through a winding course is no different to you than a normal person going 15 through the same course. Fighting for your life is no different to you than freindly sparring with your buddies in the park on a warm sunny August moring.

This is what is really meant by relaxation. It's not a state of near sleep, but an ultra alert yet calm state of mind, super awareness and wholeistic unison with your actions in an unemotionally attached manor just like a race car driver running his course.

[KC Elbows]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who watches boxing here. None of the winners look tense to me. I think you need to be able to have moments of sudden tension, but only moments: all the good fighters I've ever seen looked pretty relaxed playing with their opponents.

[Laughing Cow]

Actually, thanks to the WC Guys I found and article that fits this topic.

Article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=380)

BTW, there are times in Chen TJQ when we tense the body but it is very brief.

Cheers.

[old jong]

You beat me to it!...That article says a lot . :cool:

[Black Jack]

Have to disagree with you Royal and the Race Car Driving mindset. I understand where you are trying to go with it. I just believe it is not so cut and dry.

Fighting for your life is no different to you than freindly sparring with your buddies in the park on a warm sunny August moring.- Royal Dragon

That part of the statement alone is a large basis for disagreement. It is a massive difference no matter how many times a person has sparred or entered a MMA event. An perfect example would be Alex Gong.

[fa_jing]

I think you bring up a very good point, BlackJack. I think that you can train away this response to some degree for sport fighting, but for self-defense it is tough. Meditation will help but you still never know what your response is going to be. For those of use who have spent less than 30 years contemplating a naval orange, I advocate learning a simplified, external, bare-bones basic version of your fighting style that you can fall back on even if you tense up. I think this is very important.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know, if I can't get into the "Race Car Mind" frame of mind, I really can't fight at all. But if I "Have it", I'm practically unstoppable.

I've actually had hurdles fight wise in the past that were not fixed by Kung Fu, but by getting out on the open road, and practicing my driving skills til I got my "connection" to my car back.

I have a VERY direct relationship between my driving abilites, and my fighitng abilites. If I can race, I can fight. If I can fight, I can race.