This may be crass but I think there are some lessons with what happened to Alex Gong.

[rogue]

Quotes from two different people on another forum.

Now some smart-ass will probably come along and say how no mater how much training you have...you ain't stopping a bullet.

i have done TMA's and MMA styles....both have some to offer but MMA makes a real fighter
i want to be a killer, not someone who can defend themselves

This may be crass but I think there are some lessons with what happened to Alex Gong. My God, such a waste over what amounts to a dented car. To kill a man over such a thing, to lose a life over such a thing.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...8/02/HITRUN.TMP
Fender-bender hit-run turns fatal in S.F. Kickbox champ chases down driver, winds up shot to death

Jaxon Van Derbeken and Michael Cabanatuan, Chronicle Staff Writers Saturday, August 2, 2003

A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier.

Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street. Witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range when he confronted the driver, who apparently waited for a traffic signal to turn green before opening fire and speeding away.

Gong, who had been working out at the South of Market training gym he runs at 444 Clementina St., was wearing yellow boxing gloves and boxing trunks when he was killed.

Police had not released a description of the gunman or his vehicle Friday night. But witnesses described him as a Caucasian between 155 and 165 pounds who was driving a green Jeep Cherokee.

The slaying came one day after San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced the start of a campaign to crack down on hit-and-run driving.

The 4:30 p.m. incident began outside Gong's Fairtex gym when his car, also a Jeep Cherokee, was hit by a passing car. Enraged, Gong gave chase on foot, going a block east on Clementina, then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had been forced to stop as traffic backed up near the Bay Bridge on-ramp.

''The victim put his arm out to stop the driver, the driver pushed him back and then shot him -- point blank," said Marilyn Moore, a witness who was riding in a car on Fifth Street.

'I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE IT' "The victim grabbed himself and fell backward," she said. "The driver backed up, put the car in drive and drove off. He turned right on Harrison.

"I just couldn't believe it, I've never seen nothing like that in my life," Moore said.

Brian Lam, 26, an instructor at Fairtex, said members of the gym saw the initial fender-bender through an open garage door. Gong, who was inside training, took off barefoot after the man, said Lam, who grabbed a camera and followed. "As I was running up, I see Alex arguing with the guy," Lam said. "The light turned green, the guy popped him. He definitely waited for the light to turn green."

Lam said he tried to take a picture of the fleeing Cherokee, but was in a rush to help his mortally wounded friend. "I just yelled for people to help," he said.

A motorcycle officer on the way to the Hall of Justice nearby stopped, and he and Lam both attempted to resuscitate Gong.

"Last year, Alex paid for my CPR certification," Lam said. "I was giving him mouth-to-mouth, the officer was giving him chest compressions."

Lam said a single bullet struck Gong just above the heart.

"I thought he was dead maybe 10 seconds after he was shot," Lam said.

[SevenStar]

****... :(

[fa_jing]

OMG. What a shame. I'll just say the obvious - he should have just gotten the license plate and called the cops. I think what happened to him could have happened to anyone who thought themselves somewhat tough, or just someone who happened to be really angry already about something. I definitely don't think it matters whether he was a MMA, TMA, UFO, or any other martial arts, but in this case he perhaps was suffering from some misconception due to his psychological prepping for fights. But it certainly is a lesson to the rest of us. Hey here's a quote that came up on other forum, the question was "What's the best overall Martial Art?" The best answer was "AK-47 and rambo knife plus 1 year stay in Liberia will make you baddest MAist"

[Royal Dragon]

"What's the best overall Martial Art?" The best answer was "AK-47 and rambo knife plus 1 year stay in Liberia will make you baddest MAist"

Reply]
If you survive it that is.

[truewrestler]

From different newspaper articles:

The slaying came one day after San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced the start of a campaign to crack down on hit-and-run driving. ...maybe Alex wasn't just angry but rather thought he was doing the right thing.

Either way, it is truly sad. I hope the person who murdered him is brought to justice.

[truewrestler]

Many people got the license plate and description of the guy....


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2003/08/02/shooting802.DTL

Car involved in S.F. shooting possibly found

Bay City News Saturday, August 2, 2003

--------------------------------------

A Millbrae police officer has located a car that police now think was the vehicle involved in Friday afternoon's deadly San Francisco shooting.

A Millbrae police officer came across an abandoned green Jeep Cherokee at the Chevron Station at 400 Skyline Blvd. around 11:58 p.m. Friday, Millbrae police reported.

San Francisco police Sgt. Neville Gittens said that at about 4:30 p.m. Friday, an unidentified white male was driving that Jeep on Fifth Street between Harrison and Folsom streets when the Jeep reportedly collided with another parked Jeep Cherokee which belonged to 30-year-old Alex Gong of San Francisco outside a kickboxing and martial arts gym that Gong owned.

Police reported Friday that Gong saw the collision and chased the Jeep to the intersection with Harrison Street. Gittens said the information police have so far is that Gong got into an argument with the driver and punched out the driver's window, and the driver shot Gong and drove away from the scene.

Based of accounts from witnesses at the scene, Gittens said, police were looking for a green Jeep Cherokee with the license plate 3NAN185, which a records search determined belonged to a 33-year-old San Francisco man, Kurt Reiner.

Police quickly determined, Gittens said, that they were looking for the wrong man. He said somebody had actually stolen Reiner's license plate off Reiner's car, which is not a green Jeep, sometime in July. He said that after Millbrae police found the abandoned green Jeep at the gas station, investigators were able to determine that the Jeep used in the shooting had been stolen in Pacifica in July from another uninvolved motorist and the plate stolen from Reiner's car had been put on the stolen Jeep.

Gittens said he does not know if the fact that the shooter was driving a stolen car when Gong stopped him was what caused the man to shoot Gong. He said San Francisco detectives now have the car in their custody and are processing the car.

[fa_jing]

I forsee a somewhat difficult conviction here.

[truewrestler]

lol, I'm sure they will lose... it was during the commission of a crime (i think) -- fleeing the scene of an accident while in a stolen vehicle with stolen plates

[fa_jing]

good, that's enough for at least manslaughter then.

[SifuAbel]

Nope. Commision of a crime is an automatic murder 2.

[rogue]

My wife read the article and jumped ugly with me, says I'd do the same stupid things as Gong. Though I don't think I would it's a slap in the face and a wake up call to me.

I'm just so angry over this. The sport lost someone good, his family lost him, his friends lost him, his business lost him. And all for something that his insurance would have taken care of.

What the hell kind of crap are we all selling to ourselves? Whatever it is we're starting to believe it. The MMA and kickboxers, the standards for training like they fight, and it turns out that many of them are as clueless about the street as the guy who got his black belt in TKD from the local McDojang.


Gittens said the information police have so far is that Gong got into an argument with the driver and punched out the driver's window, ... WTF was he thinking? My God I'm so sorry for his family, but Gong screwed up on just so many levels.

From AsianWeek (http://www.asianweek.com/2001_10_19/sports_alexgong.html)
But the way he describes his technique is scarier than Jason from Friday the 13th axing down your bedroom door. His premeditated execution of an opponent is an exact science, like Einstein’s theory of relativity or the Pythagorean theorem.

“Muay Thai is the science of eight limbs,” Gong matter-of-factly says.

He then taps certain body parts with his closed fist, explaining the potential lethal weaponry of each limb.

“You attack with eight points of the body,” he says. “Two hands, two elbows, two kicks, two knees. It really is a science because it’s not about being bigger and better, but it’s about being bigger, better and smarter, knowing when, where and how.”

Perhaps if you down one too many Colt 45s and possess a predisposed mental deficiency disorder, you might have the audacity to jump in the ring with Gong. But it won’t be the two hands, two elbows, two kicks and two knees that will thump you into a makeshift world like Alice in Wonderland. It will feel more like two howitzers, two hand grenades, two AK-47s and two machetes dicing and slicing you to bits. Pretty ****ing ironic.:mad: :( Welcome to real reality fighting you all, it's a *****. :mad:
**** I'm just so disgusted, sick and angry over this. ****ing waste of a young life.

[rubthebuddha]

rogue -- thanks for keeping a level head about this. i agree with you -- alex' death is a waste beyond measure. and it didn't need to happen, and i agree that evaluating what was necessary (getting license plates would have been the right thing, even though in this case it would have proven futile) would yield some lessons, particularly in how the world is today.

i'm just deeply sad. alex really was a good guy. :(

[Royal Dragon]

Seriously, you guys may hava been abit offended by my stance (and probably more importantly the way I presented it), but if YOU were in the same position, and some crazy mad man busted thru YOUR window trying to get you, wouldn't you do the same thing? I would, and Terri actully DREW a .45 on a guy once for the very same thing.

I think my thread had some really relative things to think about. I don't think it should have been deleted just because I took the time to write it in such a way as to rile people up, that happens all the time here anyway!!

If you take all of the personal feelings out of it, because he was a well known and respected member of our little community, and focus strictly on the incedent as if it was two unknown individuals. Gong's actions justified the shooting no question about it.

If they do ever find this guy, I seriusly hope he gets off on self defence, because if shooting a guy who's literally breaking through your car window to get you is not considred a legit self defense situation, then nothing is and we are all in much deeper trouble than we realise.

[Black Jack]

I did not see the post Royal but your statement does have merit.

Certain martial artists seem to think that they have a natural kwang yang ming sense on what their attacker is preparing to do to them and can respond with just the right amount of control for their telepathic vision.

People have gotten off for defensive shootings in this very same situation. If I was a judge I would have to see the evidence but their is a shot if all things fall into place and the man was afraid for his life....aka car jacking....violence on his person.....then I would let him go.

[old jong]

I think it is better formulated now.
I guess this whole sad thing shows that it can be a big mistake to blindly follow our emotions.
:(

[Imperial Dragon]

Too bad they took it off, you have an unusual attitude about life and no reguard for human life. I left you a great reply, hope you read it before they took it off.
Royal Dragon, you need to rethink how you act because you attitude and opinions are not only immature they are not those of a martial way of life. You need help.

By the way I have information you have searched for about Tai Tzu. I have studied the Chao family Tai Tzu as well as others for over 18 years in China. I hold a high rank in this style and I also studied with Grandmaster Chao as well here in the US. I don't know if you have the right attitude for me to share any information with you. I have talked on a board like this before, I feel that it is a waste of time but I felt that you need to be given a wake up call.
Rethink you life, learn how to control your views and change your attitude from an ego driven want to be, to an honorable true student of the arts. Living a bad life brings bad things, good way brings good things.

The only way to earn respect and the privilage of learning what you want to learn is to prove yourself worthy. So far you have come up way short. This is why my teachers don't want to even contact you. I know you have tried to contact them and your attitude demonstrated thus far has proven what most of the world thinks of Americans. Have you heard of the term "Dirty American"? No!Yes! It means that in the past the rich american comes to another country and uses their dirty money and tries to buy everything and they think that money gives power over people that have little riches. They want ot buy something or nothing, but it may have been given to them if they were worthy. Im American so don't get me wrong. but you must earn what you want and you get what you deserve.

If you want to learn a system it takes many years of hard work, a positive attitude and trust. So far you have not demonstrated any of these and you, at this time, are not worthy.

Live your life in a positive light and good things happen, in a negative, pain and dissapointment is the result.

[KC Elbows]

Imperial Dragon, put a sock in it. Your post last night was totally opportunistic, which I pointed out last night. You have an ax to grind with RD, and you used people's emotions in response to his first thread in order to get back at him for some perceived wrong. You callously used this guy's tragedy in the same way others felt RD had, except in RD's case, he did not take into account that people here might have known or been close to the guy, whereas by the time you posted, you did know. RD's intent was not spiteful, even if his execution might have not been thought out, whereas yours came off as very spiteful last night, even if today you're trying to pretend it was otherwise. Your post last night was neither great nor impressive, but merely inappropriate.

[Imperial Dragon]

I have no ax to grind with RD. His opinions about human life are tainted. I have no ax to grind with anyone. I researched RD because he has been trying to contact my teachers in china and I was told this from a student of mine who loves to study the internet sites. Your just angry because you have one less site to post your opinions.
My post must have had some truth in it because it got you to write. Are you a real artist or another angry computer want to be ? Some guys on these pages are real and others are fakes. I know several and some I have seen and even visited the schools. Most I bet are out of shape, movie fans who have no or very little training my guess one year at the most, which makes them an expert.
If I had an ax to grind with anyone it would be with the frauds out there. I can back my skill up I doubt most can.
Having a big mouth equates having either a small brain or no skill. As far as putting a "sock in it" I doubt you could do it for me so I will just wear them on my feet.

Open yourself to the ways of honor and truth, not lies and ego. It gets you nowhere

[rogue]

...Gong's actions justified the shooting no question about it.
If they do ever find this guy, I seriusly hope he gets off on self defence, because if shooting a guy who's literally breaking through your car window to get you is not considred a legit self defense situation, then nothing is and we are all in much deeper trouble than we realise. I'll say that Gong punching through the window was incredibly stupid for many obvious reasons, but to say the guy deserved to be snuffed out? No. The shooter seems to have crossed the line by getting out of his car, waiting for the light to change and then ending Gongs life. The shooter had already out thought Gong by several steps.

What bothers me is that many martial artists, sport fighters, traditional or real world/street fighters, seem to have traded common sense for a so called "killer instinct".

The entire incident sounds like something contrived during one of our "what if" sessions, sadly it is reality.

[Black Jack]

How your highness does Royal Dragon have a tainted view on human life??

Just curious to where you "think" you see that outlook and what makes you a better person?

Is it because Royal mentioned the obivous that people should check their ego and not go lurching through peoples car windows like some crazed manic because of a fender bender and that the outcome of the action might be one which ends such a choice of stupidity. More so that maybe the defenders actions could of been justified.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

If you take all of the personal feelings out of it, because he was a well known and respected member of our little community, and focus strictly on the incedent as if it was two unknown individuals. Gong's actions justified the shooting no question about it.

If they do ever find this guy, I seriusly hope he gets off on self defence, because if shooting a guy who's literally breaking through your car window to get you is not considred a legit self defense situation, then nothing is and we are all in much deeper trouble than we realise.

I can see your point, but remember that this guy was committing a crime. He just committed a hit and run, and didn't someone say he was in a stolen car with stolen plates? Gong was trying to stop a crime in progress. Ryu and I have done several such things - Do we deserve to die also? He was trying to stop a crime in progress - being a good citizen.

The killer on the other hand obviously thought out how he would kill gong. that would make it pre meditated, not self defense. But, gong did bust out his window... it would be a hard case to try, but doesn't warrant Gong's death nonetheless.

[Imperial Dragon]

Well Black Jack, I never stated that Im all mighty, but the symbol of my school is the Imperial Dragon. Five toed dragon and golden colored Worn only by the Emp. of China. So thats where my name came from.Not almighty any highness but a student of life and art.

Anywhay do a search on Royal Dragon, look at his past views on things. Did you see his post last night. He stated that he deserved to die. This man deserved punishment, death was his, but every action equal a reaction. He deserved other things to be taught a lesson, jail time etc but death, extreme view but is reality now.
The shooter had a right to defend himself, yes! Life in danger?Yes! so death was the outcome, so be it.

Do some research on RD, see how he has little respect for teachers, people and seems to have a large opinion about himself. Stated that he would slap a teacher if he requested him do something that he did not want to do. He teaches classes without having the proper skill and qualifications. Did you see my post last night? Its gone but I raised some good points, so see it as bashing, I see it as an opportunity for helping a lost sole.

The moral of this story....
Action=reaction which could = death.
Statements made that are uncalled for = people getting on your back which = post being erased.

This forum allows many peoples opinions to be stated, and allows many posts to go on, many are truthful and many are either lies or uncalled for, but they stay up. To be erased it had to be offensive.

[Imperial Dragon]

Another thing, I did not read any article on the killing the only thing I read was RD's post.

If Gong was trying to stop a crinimal he should not be punished! He should thanked and honored.
I admit that I had no Idea that he was a hero.

[old jong]

Please!...We do not live in a Batman and Robin fantasy world. The poor guy was mad because of a dented fender.He was not running to save a kidnapped children or something similar. He made a big mistake in trying to make justice for himself. He should have called the police and his insurrance company and let the guys who are paid for do the job of arresting criminals.
I hope this sad event will make our most impulsive martial arts practitioners think a little bit before confronting somebody on the street this way.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Imperial Dragon
I have no ax to grind with RD.

:rolleyes: Oh please, your war with RD is well known, gator.
You are either a Kash student or Kash himself. You are not fooling anyone.

Take your war elsewhere.

[SifuAbel]

And, as usual. we have Bererks color commentary. Too bad its the color of poo.

[SifuAbel]

uh ........yeah.............righty

Gods!, you are stupid.

[rogue]

It was NOT just a dented fender, a car is a WEAPON and Alex understod that caz he is a fighter and acted as he could to any ballsucker that would try to kill him , the only mistake alex made was not to tuck his handgun into the back of his shorts.

He was a warrior and a fighter, most wimpyknees here cant understand that caz you are a bunch of painsywaist sillysallys, he died fighting and i admire and understand him running after the guy and punching out the window and i would have done the same thing except I would have had my handgun as bckup. berserker, you're in the same fantasy land as the chi-blasters. Try to go into denial over Gongs wrong actions and the result is still the same, he died needlessly.:( Put a macho veneer over his actions and you still end up at the same place, he died needlessly. I'm so tired of the macho bull****.

We've debated and bickered over which styles, which methods of training are the best for the real world. This incident is a loud wakeup call to all of us that we all can be trumped by someone who is operating under a different set of rules than us. I think the only way to give his death some meaning is to learn some lessons from it.

[Merryprankster]

His opinions about human life are tainted.

Hi Imperial Dragon! Welcome to the this forum! You're a fantastic dick! I'm sure you'll enjoy what is hopefully an incredibly short stay so we don't have to listen to your self-righteous claptrap. In the event you do decide to stay, my fondest wish is that you may become less of an incredible wanker.

Cheers!

[KC Elbows]

Imperial Dragon, you are so incredibly transparent it's rediculous. You "confess" that you've been following RD from forum to forum for a year, you take advantage of someone else's tragedy in order to get a little payback, and to top it off, you manage to call those fetid piles of panda dung in text form you posted last night "excellent points". I responded to you because you were out of line, and you're still out of line. Behave.

As for ego, you need to lecture a little less about it and work on yours a little more.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by old jong
I think it is better formulated now.
I guess this whole sad thing shows that it can be a big mistake to blindly follow our emotions.
:(
It is very sad about Alex. My heart goes out to his family and friends. I suggest we show support for them by sending regards to the address of his school.

Regards,

[old jong]

I never read so much stupid comments since I'm here.
Compared to you,Ralek is a gentleman.
You should go troll somewhere else.

I would ban you this instant if I was a mod.

[Imperial Dragon]

Sifu Abel
No Im not "Gator"?! What the hell are you talking about.
Or Kash or anyone that is of consequence to you. However we met some time ago in Florida at a tournament in South Florida. I don't have any gripe with you. I respect you because of your teacher Sifu Gus is a respectable man. RD I don't. He is an idiot and who ever follows him is as well.
So if I took a time of hardship to bring up a point so you did as well sir.

Why do you like him? You don't have anything to learn from him, he has nothing to offer. He is a fraud and a looser who has no knowledge of the arts and tries to pawn himself off as a player. Why would someone like yourself, a martial artist from a good school defend him when he is totally against the principles you have worked hard to gain. You must have worked hard and were dedicated to become a sifu and someone out in la la land is a pretender, trying to be and calling himself a teacher or Sifu and is teaching, corrupting minds and bodies in Chicago.
KC is a misdirected, he misses his room to chat about unusual garb and to blast other schools and people.
As far as Kash if you met him you would know he is real. He is respected highly in my school in TWN., but I have only met him acouple times in Oregon years and years ago.

I have never stalked anyone on the net, I have done research because RD sent word to students here that he would like to learn Tai Tzu from Asia. I tried to call him in Chicago some time ago and I talked to a lady who said she had no idea who he was but it was a number I had from a people search on the internet. So I resorted to observation of these chat rooms. Until then I had no idea and found out about him and spoke with Sifu Livingston on more than one occasion. All the information I collected from the past almost year gives me the answers I need. He is not worthy to obtain the information form Tai Tzu however, Sifu Able you are. Let me know. If not ok no skin off my back. I have both external and internal if you like. Let me know if your intrested if not ok.

Anyway I am not a total **** but I can back it up. Don't worry people I won't stay here long but I will give my opinion when I want, its a country that promotes free speech and you do it so I will.
When I feel like writing anything I will, and hopefully it will contribute to your fun on the web.

[KC Elbows]

Room to chat about unusual garb?

You are an opportunist. You know RD's first name, his last name is out there, he contacts your people but you claim to be unable to contact him, and yet you can't call him, you must follow him on the internet and try to give a smug moral lesson in an inappropriate place. I don't buy this at all.

As for me slamming schools and teachers, I have honestly related my experiences of a certain school and shared the experiences of others. Considering that a certain supporter of said schools in the last day threatened a stranger for no reason doesn't exactly make me feel like changing my position. If those experiences paint said schools in a poor light, c'est la vie, they are my experiences, not yours. If you believe in the actions of the schools I am talking about, then you need not comment on me being misguided, considering that we are discussing con artists who purposefully created an environment of intolerance for outsiders and cheated our government and their own students as a show of greed. Since I was there to see this, since I was present at federal raids at these schools, since I saw the constant intolerance towards those who didn't agree with the party line, I must point out that my first hand experiences trump your uneducated opinion every time.

Now, since this thread is not about you and your gripe with RD, I suggest you either give it a rest or make a new thread for this purpose, and let members discuss the topic at hand.

[rogue]

berserker, it's really bad taste to troll over this. If you think Alex made the right choices fine, but result of his actions fly in the face of that, if you really believe that crap about being a warrior then seek help.

[Ryu]

I'm not sure whether the unnecessary death threats are the more disturbing, or the person claiming Gong's death was some kind of "Valhala" victory immortalized...

First.
Street assaults can and do turn deadly.
Second.
Street assualts can kill even the "best of the best" in the MA realm.

Alex Gong, (whether acting right, wrong, or whatnot) made crucial mistakes that cost him his life. The sad thing is....that no matter how you train for these possible mistakes, an unseen consequence can sneak up on you when you least expect it.

None of us know when we're going to die.
It's what makes life so very precious.

SevenStar mentioned that I, myself, have stepped into potentially dangerous situations for the sake of "justice."
And I have not stopped this practice. I recently broke up a potential assault when a motorcycler had run a car off the road, and began walking over to the driver with hands ablaze.
I did not have to physically fight, but slowed down, caught eye contact with the motorcycler, and turned my car around to ask if "everyone was all right." The motorcycler took off before I could get back to them, and while this might have been a very "noble" thing to do, I could have easily gotten killed for it as well.

I may very well indeed get killed (knock on wood) if my "protectiveness" gets the best of my street sense, and proper judgment.

This story is a very solemn reminder of what the realities of life are. When we confront anyone...we don't know the outcome.
We literally can die at just about anytime.

Proper training in situational awareness, street psychology, adrenaline management (so as NOT to go running after someone) can help in these real life aspects of life....

But the reality is that nothing is fool proof.

We absolutely don't live in a "superhero" fantasy world. What we need to do is realize that each and every one of us is human, vulnerable, and must focus and rely on our wits and brains as much as we do our muscles and "skills."

It's obvious this news has everyone on edge. That's okay, since these kinds of things are shocking to everyone.

All this being said, I'd like to say that there is a difference in "protecting someone else" and "protecting a vehicle."

One should be looked upon with a lot more admiration than the other.

That's all I can say about it I guess...

May Alex rest in peace, and my prayers go to his family and friends.

Ryu

[Laughing Cow]

Nice post Ryu.

Every situation is different and what might work out ok today might get you killed tomorrow.

Alex tried to do the right thing as far as he was concerned, and for that he got my respect. OTOH, things didn't work out ok and he got killed.

As one of my teachers used to say " the more you put yourself into harms way the more likely you are to get hurt and killed."

I speak too many MA and most of them reckon that their MA training will give them only a slight advantage if at all in a real fight (some of those compete too).

There are a few though that think that their MA training gives them kevlar like skin, snake like reflexes, punches to kill an ox and thus can overcome their adversary.

IMHO, if you are over-confident and too sure of your skills it will backfire on you.
In a fight like with many other things in life that little fear of things that might go wrong is what keeps you alive.

Cheers.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Imperial Dragon
Sifu Abel
However we met some time ago in Florida at a tournament in South Florida.

You are a Tai Tzu guy and we met in tournament in florida?!?!? Which tournament? when?

Ok, private messeage me and tell me who you are. Mind you, don't try to invent a name because I know everybody down there.

And believe me, if you were tai tzu and we met I'd remember.

[SifuAbel]

"Chinese American who lives both in us and twn "

Please, spare the denials. You forget several people here read RD forums, gator.

Unless there is yet another "Chinese American who lives both in us and twn " whom just happens to do Tai tzu then I may be wrong.

[Chang Style Novice]

Old Jong has made the most sense of anyone on this thread.

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmm,
Interesting turn on this thread. First off, I know I was being very hmm, how should I say it, excessive with my original post, but I honestly have good intent and was playintg Devil's advocate in order to make several points.

1. reguardless of WHO and WHAT the shooter was, in the situation he was in, Alex Gong was the agressor, and Alex Gong not only showed INTENT, but MEANS to do great bodily harm, and possibly kill the guy in the vehical. The "shooter", accidentally hit his car. If he intended to stop, Alex running out like a mad man very well could have scared him away anyway.

Even if the eventual "Shooter" ran in a criminal act to avoid the finacial responsibility, it did NOT warrent a threat AND ATTEMPT on his life. He was more than justified in what he did, even if he is a criminal.


2. Alex Gong, as a trained competitve MMA fighter is basically programed to run INTO confrontations, accept the challenge and prove himself. This (in my opinion), is a common mind set in the MMA world. One that is, and has reacently proven to be a deadly mindset in a real world confrontation. Basically my point is that even though the MMA movement is seriously bent on being ultra realistic, it ultimately is quite delusional about it's martial theory when applied to real world violent encounters. At least as much as they repetedly accuse the "Traditional MA" crowd of being.

In a traditional Kung Fu school, students are taught to avoid violent encounters as much as possible. The arts are for defense only, and one should not seek to go out and fight. This is because we know our training does not make us invincible. The MMA crowd almost seems to breed a mind set in opposition to this. I belive our way is more practical in the real world. If Alex Gong had been following the rules of mindset taught in Traditioanl Kung Fu schools, he may be pretty Po'd about his fender, but he would be alive and well.


As for Imperial Dragon, I'm not sure who you are, or what your specific beef is with me, but you do not know me, or the reasons behind my positions on certain teachers from my past. As for me trying to contact your teachers, if you are of the Line I think you are, I already have contacts, and I already have exchanged documentation of the system and documentation of my performances of the sets in question. Infact, I have enough documented to make a Black Sash in two Tai Tzu divisions. A number of people have besides your line have shared with me, and from the feed back I get, I'm liked in several Tai tzu circles. I sense I'm considred to be a bit of a loud mouth, but I'm apparently liked well enough to share with just the same.

Personally, I think you are incredibly disrepectful for seizing an oppertunity to throw mud at me in a discussion about Alex Gong. My post was inflamitory enough, especially with the way I worded it, but at least it was on topic (And I think everyone knows me well enough to see I was playing Devil's advocate for a reason). What you did was beyond out of line, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it. At the very least, you should have the Balls to make a seperate post about it.

[TAO YIN]

My condolences and sympathies go out to Alex Gong's family and friends. May he rest in peace.




I feel terrible putting this on such a thread since it is bad to talk about the dead anyway, but some things must be said

Berserker,

Did you just say that in order to have killing emotions in check you have to have them in the first place, you have to reach that level???


That is by far the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life. I mean, did the guy who shot Alex reach some sort of emotional killing level at a local handgun club?? Or was he just a normal every day murderer? I know maybe he was in a gang.

You are stupid. but that is ok, many people are. Its ok, you can't help it.

[Merryprankster]

RD, your point number two was too long for me to bother cut and pasting, but I disagree. Almost all the MMA'ers I know will point blank tell you what a terrible disadvantage an unarmed person is against an armed one and that it's definitely a bad idea to seek out confrontation. Alex Gong is a man who made an unsafe decision and he was killed for it. It's not a training issue.

Secondly, when you talk about "ultra-realistic" be careful what you're talking about. Learning to fight isn't self-defense. It's learning to fight. Realism in that context refers to a training paradigm that involves beating the crap out of each other from time to time. Realism in a self-defense context is something else again. Getting the two CONFUSED is a problem that certainly isn't unique to MMA. The stereo-typical MMA mantra is that the MMA fight training paradigm is better. Self-defense is a different issue.

You're entitled to your (wrong) opinions about what is and isn't promoted in the MMA community, of course, just as many are entitled to believe that CMA's are all about goofy looking outfits and bad dancing.

Your ultimate weapon is your head. If you don't use it, you lose it.

[Royal Dragon]

RD, your point number two was too long for me to bother cut and pasting, but I disagree. Almost all the MMA'ers I know will point blank tell you what a terrible disadvantage an unarmed person is against an armed one and that it's definitely a bad idea to seek out confrontation. Alex Gong is a man who made an unsafe decision and he was killed for it. It's not a training issue.

Reply]
Alex gong didn't even consider the guy might be armed. I think that fact alone could be a training issue. Reguardless of what MMA "Thinks" it is, it's not a reality based fighting system, or the thought that this guy might be armed would have been at the front of Gong's mind. No, he assumed he was safe because he was the big bad fighter, and Joe civillian was inferior to his MMA life style. He demostraighted CLEAR inten to do this guy serious harm, AND he demonstraigted the means to do it. I believe his mindset comes from his training.

The "You fight like you train" line can also be said like this "You THINK, like you train" as well.

[Ryu]

Just for the record, does anyone realize that the word "fascist" (that gets thrown around a lot) is simply defined as any person or regime that uses power and force to achieve their goals?

Anyone, then, who uses force to get something accomplished is by "definition" a fascist.

I'm a fascist. Alex Gong was a fascist. MerryPrankster is a fascist, Beserker, you're a fascist too.

Spiderman is a fascist.

In fact, just about everyone and every thing has been a "fascist" in some point in life. So stop throwing the word around like that :rolleyes:

Ryu

[shaolin kungfu]

I'm not a fascist, but only because I dont have any power.

[Merryprankster]

RD,

I think it's far more about the person. I would never chase a guy down. I'd get his license plate and work from that. Death is no fun. Comprehensive insurance and higher premiums are worth it.

You're making a causal relationship where one does not exist--only a correlative one.

[shaolinboxer]

"The "You fight like you train" line can also be said like this "You THINK, like you train" as well."

I could not agree more. It is very unfortunate things turned out the way they did, but it was an avoidable situation. Toughing up on the guy could have been a fair, fast solution. But getting the plate of the car could have been more effective counter attack in the long run, and it would have saved his life.

A great loss.

[fa_jing]

newsflash: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=350&ncid=350&e=3&u=/kpix/20030805/lo_kpix/7395

Apparently the perp killed himself. Guess he felt that he wouldn't be able to afford Johnny Cochrane.

[TonyM.]

Good. Instant karma strikes again.

[rubthebuddha]

not quite. instand karma would be alex surviving with a quick recovery and this dude driving off the bridge because he was picking his nose and not paying attention.

however, we're stuck with what we have. let's just hope this helps bring closure, even though it makes alex' death seem all the more pointless, for the family and friends.

[rogue]

Alex gong didn't even consider the guy might be armed. I think that fact alone could be a training issue. I doubt anything like scenerio this worked into Gongs training, and as far as I know he never claimed to have a "real world" fighting system.

Reguardless of what MMA "Thinks" it is, it's not a reality based fighting system,The few competitive fighters that I personally know never say they fight in a reality based system, they know it's a sport. They know the strengths and limitations of what they do. There does seem to be a fringe in the fight sport community that does think what they do will make them 6 feet tall and bullet proof, but I've yet to see them compete. Anyway I find sport types to have a clearer view of their skills than the JKD(general statement I know) style bunch.
or the thought that this guy might be armed would have been at the front of Gong's mind. No, he assumed he was safe because he was the big bad fighter, and Joe civillian was inferior to his MMA life style. If that was so Gong would have just punched the guy. It's clear that Gong had not fully thought out what he was going to once he caught the guy or what could happen. Same as vast majority of the other martial artists.

He demostraighted CLEAR inten to do this guy serious harm, AND he demonstraigted the means to do it. I believe his mindset comes from his training.Once again, if that was so Gong would have just started beating the guy. I don't think it was his training that got him in trouble but a gap in his reasoning at that point in time.

[shaolinboxer]

"Once again, if that was so Gong would have just started beating the guy. I don't think it was his training that got him in trouble but a gap in his reasoning at that point in time."

Yes. And that gap in reasoning may have been influenced by the psychological reenforcement he had been conditioning himself with inorder to be a more successful competitor. Or he was just SOL.

[Dragon Warrior]

i think his training could have had something to do with him chasing the car like he did. I dont think that MMA training is to blame though.

I'm a Traditional Martial artist and i would have probably chased the car and gotten shot also.

[datsmax]

am amazed as well as dismayed at some of the responses posted here and many of you should eat your words as you read the truth about this tragic, tragic incident. We are all but human and Alex gave his life trying to do the right thing, bare handed, fatefully and purely by coincidence. His destiny fullfilled now with a stone cold killer off the streeets. We should all be so brave.

R.I.P. Alex Gong



Jeep hit-run probe ends in death
Police say suspect in kickbox champ's slaying killed himself

Matthew B. Stannard, Tanya Schevitz, Chronicle Staff Writers Tuesday, August 5, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




A fugitive parolee who admitted to his girlfriend that he had shot a champion kickboxer to death killed himself Monday in a South San Francisco motel room after a 12-hour standoff with police, authorities said.

The man, whom sources identified as Rodger Wayne Chastain, 23, shot himself around noon after telling his girlfriend he wouldn't be taken alive, then spurning police efforts to talk to him in his room at a Travelodge next to the Bayshore Freeway, police said.

Police said Chastain had past convictions for stealing cars and gun possession and had failed to show up for required visits to his parole officer for the past year. Any contact with police would have resulted in his being returned to state prison for violating parole, authorities said.

Investigators said that might have been the motivation behind Friday's slaying of Alex Gong, 32, a champion Muay Thai-style kickboxer who was shot after chasing down a Jeep Cherokee that had hit his parked car in San Francisco's South of Market neighborhood and confronting the driver.

"He knew that if this guy made him stop, the cops were going to check him, and he was going to go back to jail," said San Francisco homicide Inspector Michael Johnson. "He wasn't going to go back to jail. Whether he had to kill somebody else or kill himself, he wasn't going to go back to jail."

The Jeep, which police said was stolen and bore stolen plates, was recovered late Friday in Millbrae.


POLICE INFORMANTS QUESTIONED
Johnson said police had begun looking for Chastain on Saturday after questions to police informants led them to a woman with a grudge against him. She gave police Chastain's name, authorities said.

San Francisco police spread the word, and a tip brought South San Francisco officers to the Travelodge on South Airport Boulevard early Monday.

Police cleared guests out of surrounding rooms and brought in tactical and negotiating teams to speak with Chastain and a woman in the room with him.

Many of those guests, some still wearing their pajamas, spent the morning waiting to return to their cars and clothes.

"We didn't know if it was a terrorist or what," said 65-year-old Roxanne Vergers of Covina (Los Angeles County). "We just opened our drapes, and it was like reality TV."

Chastain's companion, who police said appeared to have been trying to talk him into giving himself up, surrendered at about 6:30 a.m. and spoke with Johnson and Inspector Maureen d'Amico.

The woman said she had been dating Chastain for about a year, police said. She described him as somewhat mysterious -- she didn't know his real last name -- and said he claimed to have shot a police officer in Texas, something police were checking Monday evening.

The girlfriend told police that on Friday afternoon, Chastain had gone to San Francisco to pick her up and parked on Clementina Street, an alley off Fifth Street in the South of Market area.

As he parked, Chastain accidentally struck Gong's car, also a Jeep Cherokee,

the girlfriend said. Rather than wait for the possible arrival of police, she said, he took off.

Gong saw what had happened from the training gym he ran at 444 Clementina St. and gave chase on foot, still wearing yellow boxing gloves and boxing trunks.

Based on police conversations with Chastain's girlfriend, Johnson said, investigators believe that when Gong caught up with the Jeep, Chastain told him he couldn't stop.

"He told the victim, 'I can't stop, I'm wanted by the police, I can't stop and deal with this, I'm sorry, but I gotta go,' " Johnson said.

Gong began striking the car, smashing a window and a turn signal and tried to reach in to turn off the vehicle, Johnson said. At that point, authorities believe, Chastain shot him.


PAROLEE'S GIRLFRIEND'S PLEAS
In the hotel room Monday, as police and the girlfriend tried to encourage him to give up, Chastain made it clear he would not surrender, Johnson said.

"He told her, 'I'm not going to be taken alive,' " Johnson said. "He said, 'I'm not going back to jail.' He knew the game was up."

Police had no further communication with Chastain after the woman left. As the morning wore on, officers used a flash-bang noisemaking grenade to try to get his attention and telephoned his room several times.

Police also used a camera to try to peer beyond a mattress that Chastain apparently had propped in front of his room's window. Officers were unable to see anything useful.

At about 12:23 p.m., tactical officers heard a single gunshot, said South San Francisco police Sgt. Mike Brosnan. Officers soon found Chastain's body next door to the room where he had been staying, Brosnan said.

He said Chastain apparently had broken a hole in the wall and crawled into the adjoining room, presumably in an escape attempt. Police theorize that when he saw no way out, Chastain hid under a mattress and shot himself in the head with a revolver.

Investigators plan to conduct ballistics tests to see whether the weapon Chastain used on himself is the same one used to kill Gong.

Several of Gong's fellow martial arts aficionados drove to the Travelodge to watch the drama unfold. Afterward, Roman Fan, who studies Muay Thai in the East Bay, said the suspect's death brought little comfort.

"I kind of wish he didn't die so we could know if he really did it," Fan said. "I believe in an eye for an eye, but nothing can bring (Gong) back."

Gong's girlfriend, Mai Tran, also said it was more frustrating than comforting to hear that Chastain was dead.

"I'm not easy with the fact that he killed himself," she said, "because I feel there was more to this case than just an accident."

San Francisco's acting Police Chief Alex ***an said there would be a lot of unanswered questions about the case.

"Here we have a parolee, who stole a Jeep, stole some plates and killed an innocent man," ***an said. "I wish for the victim's family we could have answers to some of these questions. I feel we owe it to them."

Chronicle staff writers Jaxon Van Derbeken and Jim Herron Zamora contributed to this report. / E-mail the writers tschevitz@sfchronicle.com and mstannard@sfchronicle.com.

[fa_jing]

Sorry, a civilian with no armed backup smashing through a car window in an effort to stop a fleeing criminal is not "the right thing" in my book, it was the wrong thing and the fact that he got shot and killed proves it. I think he was a good guy and trying to do what he saw as a good thing in his world view, which many of us share, however just because something is done with good intent doesn't mean it was correct. In fact had Mr. Gong been successful, he would have encouraged others to put themselves at risk in the same manner. I regret and am saddened that this fate befell Mr. Gong, however, these events are indeed a lesson to all of us.

[Black Jack]

It was a very bad error in judgement to do what Gong did. Unless you are the Dark Knight from a Frank Miller graphic novel. It has nothing to do with his training. Just a stupid decision made at the worst possible time.

The only good judgement in this whole event was the perp blowing his own brains out. One last piece of dogsh!t our taxes have to go to supporting.

If only more criminals would take such responsibility and off themselves I might be lead to take up guitar practice and sing like some f'in hippy.

[rogue]

We are all but human and Alex gave his life trying to do the right thing, bare handed, fatefully and purely by coincidence. His destiny fullfilled now with a stone cold killer off the streeets. We should all be so brave.Excuse me but I don't think Gong was trying to sacrifice himself for whatever "right thing" you're talking about. :rolleyes: I find this canonization of Gong and what he did odd. If the guy was the top wushu competitor and did the same thing you'd be laughing your ass off.


Yes. And that gap in reasoning may have been influenced by the psychological reenforcement he had been conditioning himself with inorder to be a more successful competitor. I'm not a competitor and guys like SS Guro and Prankster would know better than me, but, the guys that I know are pretty level headed and have learned to keep cool when things are going wrong and under pressure. Considering that his aggression may have been hightened at that exact moment because he was training you may have a point, but other than that...

[datsmax]

I didn't say he was a saint but for **** sure a better person than his cold blooded killer . I said he was human and made a very bad mistake if you can't understand english.

Neither you nor I can say what was going through his mind when that guy was trying to get away. Obviously he wanted to stop him, a reaction most of us would have. the guy smashed his car, thats wrong. who would imagine he'd also be a murderer? (and also you cannot speak for me regarding your other hypothetical situation. it sounds more like an inferiority complex you may have).

ps. law enforcement risk their lives every day "doing the right thing". sounds like some of this group wouldn't give thanks to them either. well, you live your life as you see fit. I'm glad there are the good guys though and I'm out of here. rollie eye smiley thingy returned.

[rubthebuddha]

datsmax -- i believe you're the one missing the point. Alex shoud NOT have gone after the jeep, because he did NOT know what the level of threat was. safety is the most important concern, and running after someone with no idea what the other person's level of threat or mental state is is NOT the right thing.

and comparing Alex to police officers is like comparing apples and oranges. police officers are PAID to go after threats and throw themselves in harms way to deal with criminals and prevent crime from happening. Alex was paid to train people to fight well, as well as paid to fight on his own. the fact that Alex was a wonderful person, fantastic coach, champion fighter and everything else does not change the fact that running into, rather than away from, a potentially dangerous situation is not a safe, and thus wise, choice to make.

i do pray that Alex rests in peace, and that those who benefited from his good nature continue to do so after he is gone. i have done that several times on my own and with friends of Alex. but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't make the best decision.

no one is questioning Alex. they're questioning a single action that wasn't the best one.

[rogue]

datsmax, this isn't about Alex but if someone does a hit and run chances are they're not a fine upstanding citizen. Sorry but I didn't see where in your post you used the word "mistake". Well you live in your little world and the rest of us will live out here. Good luck.

[datsmax]

thank you rubthebuddha, I am only asking a modicum of respect for my fallen friend. some of the other replies are just foolish and pathetic, making wild assumptions about the situation and his character. the words I used are tragic, human, fateful for those unable to read between the lines. of course we would like to have this go down another way but we have what we have. I'm sure this event will be argued till kingdom come and trying to get the last word is pointless anyways. this is a tough time here, please understand as many of us are trying to also. peace to you.

[rogue]

Nice article, contains info for a memorial fund at the bottom. (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/08/05/MN295168.DTL) We can all agree that one of the good guys was lost.

[Laughing Cow]

Datsmax.

You are making just as many wild assumptions about the situation.



... his cold blooded killer ... murderer ... etc.


Your comment implies a premediated and planned desire to kill Alex Gong.

Regardless of which side you are on widely made assumptions are wrong as you stated yourself.
Don't give into stereotypes.

This is really the kettle calling the pot black.

Cheers.

[datsmax]

uh hello, I was commenting after the fact not making assumptions at all. was he not a cold blooded murderer? are you people dense. the perp showed premeditation all on his carrying a loaded weapon. no wonder people are laughing at this forum. I give up.

[Laughing Cow]

So now all people that carry a loaded gun are murderers and premedidate to kill someone.

Come on and get real.

The Guy "killed" some one that attacked him, that is a fact. If he was/is a criminal or not does not figure in this equation.

The fact that he had a criminal record and commited another crime will affect the case in court for sure.

If you carry a loaded gun(which many do in the USA for self-protection) bump your car into another and that person gomes at you, you wouldn't shoot him with the gun on your hip, because it would make you a cold blooded pre-medidated murderer and killer.

Yeah, people here are laughing but not at the situation but at you I think.

[Fred Sanford]

the perp showed premeditation all on his carrying a loaded weapon. no wonder people are laughing at this forum. I give up.

wrong, *******. Carrying a loaded weapon does not show that he was planning on murdering anyone. Get a f.ucking clue, stupid.

[Fred Sanford]

you wouldn't shoot him with the gun on your hip, because it would make you a cold blooded pre-medidated murderer and killer.

depends on the situation, if the guy comes at you and goes nuts you might be justified in shooting. The law states that you can use deadly force if you believe that your life is in danger or to protect yourself from serious bodily injury.

[Laughing Cow]

No argument there.

Like I said none of us were there and saw what went down exactly, if Alex was threatening enough than the other guy might have been justified in taking the shot , criminal or not.

That's my point, a bad thing happened but now going all ape**** over the guy that shot Alex and calling him a cold-blooded murdered, etc., IMO, is wrong and unjustified.

Cheers.

[rogue]

The guy did wait for the right moment to kill Gong, so to me the guy was a killer no matter how you cut it. The guy also may have had a nut loose. Regardless of Gongs actions this dirt bag, who was leaving the scene of an accident in a stolen car, with stolen plates, with an illegal handgun was up to no good. Calling the guy a murderer is understandable and to me justified.

[Fred Sanford]

The guy did wait for the right moment to kill Gong

which was the right moment? after telling Gong that he was wanted by the police and had to split? after Gong started breaking out windows? after Gong started reaching into the car?

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Gong has probably done similar things in the past. Bad decision making reinforced by a good outcome, until now.

[Laughing Cow]

rogue.

Here I am nitpicking:

Both actions of murdering and killing are pre-medidated actions.
Check your dictionaries.

So you are saying that the Guy WANTED and PLANNED to kill Alex Gong?
So he pulled the gun with the INTENTION of killing Alex Gong?

For most criminals there is a big step between theft and similar and murdering someone.

Amazing how much you guys got inside into what went on in the guys head, plus, I always thought it was up to the courts, judges and juries to decide if it was murder or similar.

Maybe he is a murderer to YOU, but that does not make him on in everybody elses yes.

Have fun, I am done here.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not sure why the word "Murder" is even being apllied here. Alex Gong chased this guy down in a Psycotic rage, and Busted through this guys window with his bare hands (No tools, hammer, tire iron etc..). This guy didn't "Wait" for the right moment, he delayed the shooting as long as he possibly could, and when Gong started comming through the window at him, I'm sure he was withdrawing to the other side of the vehical, and scrambling to get that gun out form under the seat aim, and fire before Gong killed him. This is a man who was fearing for his very life, not a murderer. Gong's own positioning (he had position on him by going through the glass) would have prevented the shooter from driving away, and so would cross traffic if his intent was to blow the light.

No, He struggled the best he could to survive, and Shot Gong as a last resort to get him out of the vehical so he could return to the drivers seat and drive away. The fact that the light happened to turn green right then was just a conincidence.

The really sad part of this, is this poor guy ended up killing himself out of guilt over what he was forced to do.

No, this was NOT a murder, Gong was just a Tyson gone mad, and his actions demonstraighted both the INTENT and MEANS to do this poor guy SERIOUS bodily harm, and probably even kill him.

The real tragidy was the police stand off, and his eventual suicide.


Gong did this to himself, and he got what he deserved. IF he had done it to me, I would have capped him twice for his efforts. I have no tolerance, or patience for those who attempt great, or even minor physical harm to another under ANY cercumstances other than self defence. If you attack another human being, you desreve what you get period. I don't care if your the Pope. Gong was no saint, he was a violent man with a vicious temper. If this was not true, he wouldn't have been punching through a car window to get this poor guy, he would have run far enough to get a plate number. He wouldn't have chased, caught and punched through a car window in an attempt to bust the guy up.

What he showed us all here, was not some noble warrior spirit, but his true nature, an angry out of controll psycopath with no reguard for human life. He deservs no respect, sympathy, understanding, or morning. He died in the act of attempting GREAT violence on another in the most barbaric way. As martial artists, he made us all look horribly bad in the process.

When the civillian population sees us from now on, they are going to see hostile, crazy mad men looking maim and bruthalise others at the littlest excuse because of guys like Gong & Tyson.


Yes, this was a tragic situation, but not for Gong, he got what he had commming. It was sad for the Shooter, his eventual sucide over this, it was sad for his family and freinds who lost a loved one over Gong's rage and wild uncontrollable anger. It is sad because of the pain and anguish Gong has put his family and feinds over his actions and loss. But as for Gong himself, it's no great loss. His violence, anger and wilde out of controll temper have been snuffed out so others will not be able to feel the wrath of a mad man who has no care or feelings for the physical well being of his fellow man. It's just too bad a man felt so much guilt over this that he had to kill himself. Gong was not worth it.

[Black Jack]

I am not shedding any lost tears for Gong, I did not know the gentleman, why lie on a forum and say crap I don't mean, and his action was sheer stupidity, no matter how much you lube it up it just won't fit as anything close to being nobel. But I sure as hell am not going to call the shooter's suicide anything close to a tragedy.

A tragedy is when a kid gets run over by a drunk driver. This f@ck job was just wasting good air. Check out his own actions and background. This is not a waste. It's just about time.

[Mr Punch]

Aw sheeet. I agree with BJ.

[rogue]

RD, are you trying to make a point or did Gong pee in your Cheerios sometime in the past? If you're trying to make a point using the same technique as Swift in a "Modest Proposal" let us in on it. But if you think that Gong was some sort of Tyson then produce some proof or just drop it. Like BJ, I didn't know Gong and I won't be joining in the noble warrior going to Valhalla rants, but I sure as hell don't think he was the kind of person you're painting. And as far as the perp goes check the article that dmax posted.

Police said Chastain had past convictions for stealing cars and gun possession and had failed to show up for required visits to his parole officer for the past year. Any contact with police would have resulted in his being returned to state prison for violating parole, authorities said. A crook who didn't want to go back to jail but was back to his old ways. Chastain != Gong!

[Laughing Cow]

FYI.


Slain kickboxer led an amazing life
From 'orphan' in India to world champion

C.W. Nevius, Chronicle Staff Writer Tuesday, August 5, 2003

Alex Gong was always a story just waiting to be told, but no one expected that story would end with him dead on the street at 32.

Starting at age 9, he spent almost three years in an orphanage in India. He was an Asian kid who grew up in New Hampshire, a high school dropout who went back to school and earned a business degree from San Francisco State.

At 23, on a whim, he flew to Chandler, Ariz., to devote himself to a form of Thai kickboxing called Muay Thai. Five years later, at 6 feet and 160 chiseled pounds, he was the world middleweight Muay Thai champion and appeared on ESPN, HBO and the television show "Walker, Texas Ranger" with Chuck Norris.

He was also a notorious prankster. "When you walked into this gym," said one regular yesterday, "you were either going to get sprayed with a lot of water or get your shorts pulled down." And he was a devoted role model and surrogate parent to CJ, the son of his girlfriend, Mai Tran.

It was easy for everyone who knew him to believe all of those things about Alex Gong. What they can't believe is that he was slain last Friday.

"When Mai (his girlfriend) called me, she said there had been an accident," Gong's mother, Nita Tomaszewski, said Monday, eyes welling up once again. "I thought he might be hurt. And I said I could deal with that. Because I knew he was indestructible."

They keep trying to explain it to CJ in a way that makes sense when you are 9 years old and have modeled everything -- your haircut, your walk, your gym shorts -- on your buddy Alex.

"CJ keeps asking why," said Tran, who had been Alex's girlfriend for five years. "He wants to know how did he shoot him? And why did he have to shoot him there (pointing to her heart)? He says, if he shot him here (pointing to her stomach) he could have been revived. I just never, ever figured he wouldn't be part of our life."

EASY-GOING FRIDAY

Things were slow and lazy last Friday afternoon at the clean, well-lighted gym just off Fifth Street. Instructor and fighter Linda Loyce had just finished her work on the heavy bag and "was putting off doing my pull-ups. I was talking to one of the trainer's wives, getting ready to help her get the babies out of her car."

That was when a Jeep Cherokee came up Clementina Street, a narrow little alley just north of the Fifth Street entrance to the Bay Bridge, stopped and then backed right into Gong's Jeep with a resounding crash. Loyce remembers looking the driver dead in the eyes and getting an uneasy feeling.

"He just pulled away really slowly," she said, "no hurry at all."

Wearing boxing gloves and trunks, Gong chased the Jeep down the street. Loyce is sure he was just trying to get some information, not start a fight. When Gong caught up with the car at a red light, he reached for the driver, who pushed him away, then fired a shot into Gong. He died almost immediately.

TRUTH, JUSTICE THING

"Alex always had that 'Truth, Justice and the American Way' thing," his mother said. "I remember he called me once and said he came out of his apartment in the Richmond District, and this guy was beating a woman up. He said, 'Mom, people were just standing there not doing anything.' Alex did a technique and took his feet out from under him. The guy said, 'You hurt me.' Alex said, 'What do you think you were doing to her?' "

Everyone had an image of Alex Gong yesterday, from the publicity shot on the gym wall, the attack fighter nicknamed "F-14," to the old softie who just bought CJ a new bike.

"When he'd see CJ," said Tran, "he'd drop to one knee, and his face would just light up. He wasn't his biological father, but he always said, 'That's my son.' "

"When I got married again five years ago,"' said Tomaszewski, who lives in New Hampshire, "Alex gave me away at the wedding. He said to my husband (Lee Hammond), 'You know it is a family tradition that you have to fight me for my mother.' "

Hammond's response: "I said 'Really? Do I have to last a long time? Can you make it quick so it won't hurt so much?' "

Loyce remembers Gong's playfulness. "He was like the ****y brother I never had," Loyce said. "There was a lot of little kid humor, like burping. Somewhere, I know Alex is looking down, happy that I told everyone he was burping at workouts."

A TOUGH CHILDHOOD

It was remarkable that Gong held on to his sense of playfulness, considering the trauma he went through when he was about CJ's age. Tomaszewski and her then-husband, James Gong, went through an acrimonious divorce when Alex was 8 years old. In a dispute over the child's custody, Tomaszewski said, her ex-husband took the boy overseas to India and Tibet. In India, Alex was enrolled in Children's Village, a boarding school in Dharamsala. Three years later, Alex turned up, alone, at the American Embassy at Kathmandu, Nepal. He couldn't be traced to his mother because she'd gone back to using her maiden name, and Alex couldn't remember "Tomaszewski."

"I guess (his father) got tired of being a single parent," said Tomaszewski, "because he dropped him off at an orphanage. For two and a half years he really had no parents."

"I know he said it was a very difficult time for him ...," Loyce said. "I know he said he had to fight a lot as a kid. He always said it made him stronger, but I know it was very hard."

And for his mother, who didn't know where in the world her only son had gone.

"I spent all my resources looking for him," she said.

And then, like a miracle, he suddenly appeared again. She said Monday that she was reliving that sense of loss once again. She didn't want to complain, she said. She understood budget cutbacks had hit hard everywhere, but she was waiting to get her son out of the morgue.

"I'm from New Hampshire," she said. "I thought, this is a big city. Maybe this happens all the time. But this is my baby."

As it happened, Tran and Alex's mother came back to San Francisco together. Tran was in Miami when Gong was killed and asked that CJ's biological father keep the boy away from the news reports so that she could tell him herself.

CJ kept turning it over in his mind, mostly silently, until yesterday when they were at the mortuary, planning the service. Someone asked the family what Alex would like to have them say. CJ's hand went up.

"I know," he said quietly. "The family that kicks together -- sticks together."

Alex Gong said that all the time, and the boy remembered.

Services for Gong will be held Thursday at Dugan-Serra Mortuary, 500 Westlake Ave., Daly City, beginning at 4 p.m. A memorial fund has also been set up at the Wells Fargo Bank in Millbrae. Donations can be sent to Special Account Memorial, 344 301 2574.

[Serpent]

I guess this is half the trouble in a country where so many people are always armed.

But ask yourself this. Without the benefit of hindsight with Gong's case, put yourself in exactly the same position. Can you really say that you wouldn't have chased the guy down? I think Rogue's original post is being overlooked a bit here.

Sure, in hindsight, it was a stupid thing to do. But I bet the majority of us would have done the same thing.

[Royal Dragon]

A tragedy is when a kid gets run over by a drunk driver. This f@ck job was just wasting good air. Check out his own actions and background. This is not a waste. It's just about time.

Reply]
Hmmm, you may have a point there. However, I have a few freinds that were pretty much the same as what we percive the shooter to be, and they turned their lives around and are now good fathers and husbands with steady jobs. People can, and do change.

Laughing Cow,
Thanks for posting that. It still does not change the fatc that Gong ran this guy down, and busted thru a window to get him. The shooting was still a justified Selfdefence case IMO


But ask yourself this. Without the benefit of hindsight with Gong's case, put yourself in exactly the same position. Can you really say that you wouldn't have chased the guy down? I think Rogue's original post is being overlooked a bit here.

Reply]
No, When it happened to me, I let it go, and just reported it to the police. it turned out they couldn't do anything becasue all I got was a partial plate, but my insurance at the time fixed it and my only out of pocket was the deductible ($250), not my life.

[Elxen]

Originally posted by Serpent
[B]I guess this is half the trouble in a country where so many people are always armed.

verrrry good point.
Such a situation is very rare in my country....that is because they don't sell bullets in every store you run into or give you a rifle when you open a bank account.
guns suck and never made this world a better, safer place

[Black Jack]

First off that is not the problem. When people get their heads out of their asses they would see that. The problem is people who act before they think.

Elxen I enjoyed your brain **** of a post. Typical uneducated euro trash. Thanks for making me smile this morning.

[FatherDog]

In a purely legal sense, Gong was using his fists and nothing more; not deadly force. So even if the shooter had been a normal citizen and not a wanted criminal, shooting Gong would not have been legally justified.

[Fred Sanford]

In a purely legal sense, Gong was using his fists and nothing more; not deadly force. So even if the shooter had been a normal citizen and not a wanted criminal, shooting Gong would not have been legally justified.

actually i reckon it would have been legally justifiable. I think that chastain might even have been able to beat murder charges with a half decent legal defense. He would have went to jail for other things tho.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, Gong being a VERY successful and well trained fighter would be considred a deadly weapon all by himself.

[Laughing Cow]

I agree that it might be considered justifiable self defense.

Put yourself into the guys shoes.

You bump into a car outside a MA school, one guy dressed in workout clothing starts to run out of said school to chase you.
Lets see chances are that he will want more than just a few words, especially after he grabs you through the car window.

The guy would have gone to jail for his other offenses, but I doubt that he would have gotten much for the shooting in itself.

His previous offenses and the shooting of gong are seperate incidents and need to be evaluated and judged as such.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, that's my entire point. He ran becasue of the other stuff he was involved in. He deserved to be caught, and punished for that too. However, Gong was a DIRECT threat to his life, and well being, and he was totally justified in shooting him.

[Laughing Cow]

On a side-note they got the Guy that stabbed Genki Sudo.

Article (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20030806p2a00m0dm033000c.html)

Another version (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20030807a9.htm)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Actually, Gong being a VERY successful and well trained fighter would be considred a deadly weapon all by himself.

Legality goes only by what is known at the time. This is why it is legal self-defense to shoot someone who is pointing an unloaded gun at you; you don't know that it is unloaded, and believe yourself to be in life-threatening danger. This person did not know that Alex Gong was a trained kickboxer; all he knew was that a man chased him and punched his window. That is still non-lethal force; meeting it with deadly force falls outside the legal definition of acceptable self-defense.

[rogue]

You know RD you're right about Gong, thank God that fine upstanding citizen was there to kill him before Gong broke any more windows.:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Black Jack
First off that is not the problem. When people get their heads out of their asses they would see that. The problem is people who act before they think.

Elxen I enjoyed your brain **** of a post. Typical uneducated euro trash. Thanks for making me smile this morning.

Why is it that in most other countries throughout Europe and Australia, New Zealand, etc. the populace would agree with Elxen's post. However, only a gung ho cross section of American society shares your view.

I don't want to turn this into another gun control or anti-American thread, but you cannot poosibly deny that if guns were less of a lifestyle in the US then Gong could well still be alive. In England, Australia, Belgium, etc. an incident like this is extemely unlikely to happen. In the US it is extremely likely.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by FatherDog

Legality goes only by what is known at the time. This is why it is legal self-defense to shoot someone who is pointing an unloaded gun at you; you don't know that it is unloaded, and believe yourself to be in life-threatening danger. This person did not know that Alex Gong was a trained kickboxer; all he knew was that a man chased him and punched his window. That is still non-lethal force; meeting it with deadly force falls outside the legal definition of acceptable self-defense.

Errmm... well, he came running out of a kickboxing gym ,wearing kickboxing shorts and boxing gloves and had enough condition to run down a car. Pretty obvious he's not some Joe Bloggs non-threatening nobody. Plus, he punched out a car window.

[Elxen]

Originally posted by Black Jack
First off that is not the problem. When people get their heads out of their asses they would see that. The problem is people who act before they think.

Elxen I enjoyed your brain **** of a post. Typical uneducated euro trash. Thanks for making me smile this morning.

First of all, honey, there is no need to become rude, it only shows what kind of person you are and trust me, the world does not want to know, and me in particular am not intrested in faintish insults.

Secondly, the USA has the rate of killings equal to an underdeveloped country while in a lot of other topics it is VERY developed (that are FACTS my dear friend, and i'm not saying I don't like USA or americans but facts are facts, live with it boy) And you -mr-I-picked-my-wisdom-from-the-clouds- dare to claim the fact that anybody can buy a gun has nothing AT ALL to do with that???? (talking about heads and asses were you?)

Thirdly, mr rudeboy, I'm glad I could make you smile becasue smiling is good for everyone, even for ignorant people.
But calling me uneducated, well, now you made me smile, and thats a very hard thing to do at 8.30 in the morning. But stating such a thing again shows how impulsive you are. Next time, try to think before you write, have a nice day :cool:

And last but not least
In my eyes, a good beating does not equal a deadly shooting.
For me, a european trash guy it is totally insane that some of you seem to justify MURDER because the guy would have had a good beating.......

cheers








:cool:

[Elxen]

Originally posted by Serpent


but you cannot poosibly deny that if guns were less of a lifestyle in the US then Gong could well still be alive. In England, Australia, Belgium, etc. an incident like this is extemely unlikely to happen. In the US it is extremely likely.


and anybody who denies this needs some extra brains -
no offense

edit: and think about it man, if all guns were banned, we -the choosen fighters of this world, the best of the best- could kick everyones ass and break hundreds of windows!!!
We would RULE the world!!! AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAH *drool*


:D

[Laughing Cow]

I posted this initially over in another forum, but think it can fit here too:

The psychology of self defense and the force continuum (http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/continuum.htm)

Personally, I like what is contained within it.

Cheers.

[TigerJaw]

The trouble is, nobody knows what really happened. Nobody saw the whole thing and heard everything that was said, not even those who were there.

The question that courts would ask is. 'Did the driver believe at the time that the only way to protect himself was to shoot Alex in the chest.' This depends on the guys story and whether it ties in with eye witness accounts.

In favour of the Self defence argument is that Alex was in his workout gear and no-doubt looking scary as all hell and the abilities that he was demonstrating. Alex could, in a fair fight have easily killed the guy. The courts probaly would have bought this apart from the fact that the guy waited for the lights to change. The prosecution would argue that this means that he shot Alex merely to have avoided capture and that he was aware that he could have just driven away. That's the point, the court would have to believe that the shooter believed that he had no choice. It would be a tricky case.

This has nothing at all to do with the morality of the situation, this is just how the courts operate.

[Royal Dragon]

I think Alex busting through his window drove him to the other side of the car, and he was unable to get to the vehical controlls to drive away. Shooting him was the only way he saw to remove Gong back to a safe distance so he could regain access to the vehical controls and drive off. Also, blowing a Red light means you have to literally cut infront of moving traffic and end up stuck there in a wreacked car. He wouldn't have gotten far if he tried to blow the light. Even if he had, he would have been facing injuries form the accident, AND Gong comming in for the kill at the same time.

The way I see it, Shooting Gong was his only option.

[Elxen]

The way I see it, Shooting Gong was his only option. [/B]

since when is a beating equal to death??????????? you ASSUME all the time he would have kicked the guy to death!!!!

How many people here have been kicked or stomped in the face and how many of them died???
OTOH how many have had a bullet close to their heard and lived???
don't you see the difference or are you playing games?

[Black Jack]

It has nothing to do with being rude kiddies. I am just sick of dealing with ignorant a$$wipes who claim all sorts of bogus anti-gun/anti-self defense dogma but are either to blind or just to stupid to check the facts but instead make up there own. Kinda like how America has a crime rate equal to a third world country.

Typical bullsh!to.

Less guns in the hands of law abiding citizens equal higher crime rates. Thats it. End of story. Criminals do not obey gun laws. Guns save lifes.

Just to point out how absurd one of your posts are Elxen. You say using a gun to defend yourself is not deserving in a hard beating. That line right there shows how messed up the euro-liberal mindset is. People have died from simple one time punches to the head serf boy, how you can magicaly divine how much beating you can take before you die, or if the attacker will just stop at beating you and not intend to kill you or any other of his motivations is beyond me, wow.....you must be the next John Dee.

It is this kind of warped viewpoint that you and others hold which just reinforces to me how messed up Europeans are for the most part. I would rather have my legs amputated than ever life in that area of the world. I would gag to death on all the PC correct bullsh!t.

[Serpent]

I repeat:



I don't want to turn this into another gun control or anti-American thread, but you cannot poosibly deny that if guns were less of a lifestyle in the US then Gong could well still be alive. In England, Australia, Belgium, etc. an incident like this is extemely unlikely to happen. In the US it is extremely likely.


There's one reason for that, which should be blindingly obvious.



Originally posted by BlackJack
It is this kind of warped viewpoint that you and others hold which just reinforces to me how messed up Europeans are for the most part. I would rather have my legs amputated than ever life in that area of the world. I would gag to death on all the PC correct bullsh!t.


That's just fine. It's idiots like you that are least wanted in that part of the world anyway. And anywhere else for that matter. It's idiots like you that make the rest of the world hate America.

[Goldenmane]

since when is a beating equal to death??????????? you ASSUME all the time he would have kicked the guy to death!!!!

I don't think anyone is saying that they are automatically equating a beating with death. However, there are a couple of points to bear in mind.

Firstly, as has already been mentioned, people can die from a beating. We don't even know if Chastain had a medical condition that would increase this possibility. Perhaps he was a heamophiliac. We just don't know.

Secondly, no-one can be expected in such a situation to know how much of a beating the guy who has just punched out your car window is willing to provide. He might only be intending to slap you in the face, but then he might be intending to beat you to death... people have died in road rage attacks before, and Alex Gong was an obviously fit and trained fighter, and apparently pretty p!ssed off...

The real point here is that we don't actually know. We don't know much about Chastain or his history, his motivations, even his mindset at the time. We don't even know precisely what happened in what order, because the eye-witness accounts vary a bit.

With a bit of imagination, it is possible to come up with scenarios of history and motivation that paint Chastain as variably a bad-ass nutter, a total loser-victim, a regular guy who has had some bad luck, a delusional believer in aliens with anal probes, or any number of others.

The sad fact is that Alex Gong died of a bullet wound to the chest, from a gun held by Chastain, in an incident which has become rather sensationalised (as such things often do)... and that Chastain subsequently took his own life. Regrettable series of incidents, and perhaps a reminder to us all that life can be very unpredictable... proceed with a little caution.

The rest of it is all just smoke and mirrors, really, with people leaping to rather large assumptions based on very little real data.

RIP Alex Gong.

[Marky]

"you must be the next John Dee." Black Jack

Whoa, there's an esoteric reference for ya. Where I live everyone thinks John Dee sells tractors.


"It's idiots like you that make the rest of the world hate America." Serpent

Good thing you don't have any guns, or I might be scared! =) Haha, just goofin' on ya.

[rogue]

The real point here is that we don't actually know. We don't know much about Chastain or his history, his motivations, even his mindset at the time. We don't even know precisely what happened in what order, because the eye-witness accounts vary a bit. We know he was a parolee (car theft) who didn't want to go back to prison and was willing to kill someone and himself to make sure he didn't. We could bring up that his goal could have been accomplished by going straight, saving everyone alot of trouble.

How this turned into a sob party for Chastain and turned Gong into a maniac vigilante/hero that saved bus loads of kids, I don't know. Gong was an excellent fighter, seemed like a good business man, and a good guy, so, just by going by the facts that we know you can draw some very simple lessons.

1. No matter how good a fighter you are there is always someone out there that can take you out by either fair or unfair methods.

2. Never try to intimidate someone, you may push them further than you're willing or able to go which means you loose.

3. Never approach a stranger in a car. Watch how cops do it to see it done right, and then remember that even they get killed doing it.

4. Never run into an unknown situation if you don't have to. This is advice that I've recieved from cops, spec ops and firemen. If possible take time to scope out your target. Information is what helps keep you and yours alive.

5. In America guns are a part of life. Good or bad? Who cares, learn to recognize common carry methods and any tell tales that someone is packing. Always keep in mind that someone, especially someone who just did something illegal, could be packing a gun or a blade.

6. Training doesn't always translate from one situation to another.

[Goldenmane]

We know he was a parolee (car theft) who didn't want to go back to prison and was willing to kill someone and himself to make sure he didn't.

Was it car theft? I know he had a record of theft and gun convictions. Wasn't aware that his conviction and prison time was due to car theft. Not that it makes any difference, I'm just trying to keep the details straight in my head.

As to whether he was willing to kill someone else... that might be debatable. He may not have intended Gong to die. Not that he strikes me as being particularly intelligent - it doesn't take a complete genius to realise that pointing a gun at someone tends to increase the chances that you will kill them. He could well have been just a moron, who couldn't grasp the basic idea.


We could bring up that his goal could have been accomplished by going straight, saving everyone alot of trouble.

Very possible. On the other hand, he might have had a fairly good reason for skipping parole - old enemies, or some such. Or he could just have been a terminal loser who skipped because it seemed like a good idea at the time.


How this turned into a sob party for Chastain and turned Gong into a maniac vigilante/hero that saved bus loads of kids, I don't know.

Heh. How many times have you seen the exact sort of thing happen?

For the record, I am not attempting to paint Chastain as a good guy or a bad guy, or anything in particular. Or Alex Gong, for that matter - I have never had any contact with the guy, so I cannot pretend to know what he was thinking or any such thing.

What has really interested me in all this is precisely what you have just pointed out - the ways in which people respond to hearing about events. I myself am inclined to agree with your points regarding the simple lessons we can learn from the events, and prefer to avoid casting any judgement upon the people involved, because I don't feel well-informed enough to do so.

As to the 'guns good or bad' debate: I think the whole debate is somewhat pointless. Guns are there, and not likely to go away. Best approach (for everyone, not just people in the US - guns are pretty much everywhere) is to learn about them. I live in Oz, and we don't have as many guns, but they are out there. I'd rather do what I can to avoid dying because of ignorance.... so I learn what I can.

[rogue]

As to whether he was willing to kill someone else... that might be debatable. OK let's debate. Let me see if Alex Gong wants to join in as he has some experience in this area.


He may not have intended Gong to die. Shooting a guy in the chest is one of my favorite places when I'm trying to wound someone.


For the record, I am not attempting to paint Chastain as a good guy or a bad guy, or anything in particular. Goldenmane I wasn't referring to you but to some of the others, your post was just the handiest to quote.;)

The reason I posted this thread is that it is a real life incident that shows the worst possible outcome. No "what if" scenerios, no writing off of the guys skills, just what we know happened. Everytime I hear someone spouting off about how this or that system, style or sport is the most realistic, what happened to Alex Gong will be fresh in my mind.

[Goldenmane]

Shooting a guy in the chest is one of my favorite places when I'm trying to wound someone.

Heh. What I meant was that Chastain might have been stupid enough not to think about what he was doing, or scared enough that he didn't aim well, or any number of things.

People have a tendency, I've noticed, to work somewhat on the assumption that people are inherently as intelligent as they themselves are... so the primary inclination can be to assume that Chastain acted with intent in shooting Gong in the place he did.

The empathy factor works in a number of interesting ways - we wouldn't like to think of ourselves as shooting someone in the chest without intending to kill them, so we tend to apply by default that aspect to Chastain.

He could have just been a really lousy shot, who had never really gained any understanding about guns - just another twit who had a gun because he thought it was a magic stick that would make problems go away if you pointed it at them, with no thought as to the consequences, etc.

People do stupid things all the time. Ignorant people with guns kill each other and themselves often enough for it to be accepted as something that happens. Add panic into the mix, and the likelihood that something bad will happen increases.

Hence my comments regarding Chastains "willingness" to kill someone. He may well have been willing to do so.. or he may have simply been a panicky twit with a gun. I'm thinking in terms of concious will here... I'll work once more on explaining what I'm trying to get at and bore you to death in the process:

I am taking "willing to kill" to mean that Chastain was sufficiently versed in guns that he had conciously made the decision that he would kill someone. We don't know that this is the case.

I, and I imagine yourself, would not carry a firearm (or any weapon, for that matter) without weighing up the reasons for doing so, the consequences of using it, and in what circumstances I would do so and to what level. I don't carry a firearm for a number of reasons, the prime one being I don't have sufficient need. If I did, I would hope that I wouldn't use it except in dire need and that I would use it well.

There is, however, the chance that I would panic in a bad situation and not use the gun well. I might pull the trigger when the fight/flight response kicks in. I might aim poorly and rather than shoot someone in the shoulder to stop them, shoot them in the chest. I might forget that the darned thing is loaded and, intending only to frighten someone, point it at them... leading to rather more consequences than I had intended.

These are all things that I am aware of, and so I take them into consideration when deciding whether or not to carry a firearm. To improve my aim and knowledge, I will go to a firing range and practice regularly. I will read and talk to people about guns, and seek to improve my education.

And I will therefore not carry a weapon unless I am, in fact, willing to kill someone else and accept the consequences.

On the other hand, someone else might not think about any of these things, and just grab a gun because they can. Poor knowledge and lack of consideration plus a dangerous tool... recipe for things to go wrong.

I'm arrogant enough to think that someone who carries a weapon without knowing as much as possible about it is being stupid, and that anyone who kills someone else or themselves as a result is being very stupid. But then, I've had the advantage of a pretty good education, exposure to a lot of different ideas and ideals, and am of a contemplative nature. That description certainly doesn't fit everyone.

I was taught as a child about guns: how to handle them, how they worked, how to use them, and what they did. I was taught quite well, and taught to see them as tools, to be used for specific purposes. In that regard, I have been fortunate. I live in a fairly gun-free society, and the vast majority of people in this society have likely never seen a real gun, let alone handled one or killed something with it. Therefore, my chances of being able to handle a gun effectively in a tense stuation are likely higher than most others in this society.

But most people in this society don't actually seem to think about the majority of what they do. They drive badly, without actually considering that they could have an accident and kill someone. There is a sizable section of this society that openly states that it feels it has a right to speed, and yet has never considered whether they are willing to kill a child as a result. It's the 'it'll never happen to me' syndrome - and the vast majority of these people, in my experience, can't even tell you how an internal combustion engine works. Ignorance + arrogance + dangerous tools = one heck of a lot of accidents on the roads - and we have good roads with less crowding and better cars than a majority of places in the world.

Anyway, I'm digressing and probably not making my point any clearer.


The reason I posted this thread is that it is a real life incident that shows the worst possible outcome. No "what if" scenerios, no writing off of the guys skills, just what we know happened. Everytime I hear someone spouting off about how this or that system, style or sport is the most realistic, what happened to Alex Gong will be fresh in my mind.

Aye, mine too.

[Fred Sanford]

I might aim poorly and rather than shoot someone in the shoulder to stop them, shoot them in the chest. I might forget that the darned thing is loaded and, intending only to frighten someone, point it at them... leading to rather more consequences than I had intended.

no offense, but anyone who knows what they are talking about would never talk about shooting to wound someone by shooting them in the shoulder or arm, it's a myth. you shoot to eliminate the threat.

[Goldenmane]

no offense, but anyone who knows what they are talking about would never talk about shooting to wound someone by shooting them in the shoulder or arm, it's a myth. you shoot to eliminate the threat.

None taken.

I have, as yet, never shot a human being, only animals. In those cases, you don't tend to shoot to wound either. However, sometimes it happens, so it would seem to me to be possible.

I wouldn't be likely to try it, but the reasons would not be because it can't be done, but because it is so darned unlikely to work.

This reflects again on the issue of how much Chastain actually knew about guns, too. It highlights the question of whether he did in fact believe that he could shoot to wound 'just like you see in the movies'.

You're right, of course - shooting to wound (whilst I wouldn't call it a "myth") is hardly a recommended thing to attempt - and is just one of the things that needs to be learned/taken into consideration when contemplating carrying a gun.

(Side note: Ned Kelly, the most famous Australian bushranger, was taken down by a "shot to wound"... he was shot in the legs with a shotgun. The wound almost killed him, but he survived long enough to be tried and hanged.

The reason he was shot in the legs was because most of him was covered with armour - head, torso, and upper thighs.

No real bearing on the discussion, but I felt like mentioning it out of interest anyway.)

[Fred Sanford]

there is something called a pelvic girdle shot, which is designed to put someone down by taking out their structure. they could still very well die from it. once again the intent is to eliminate the threat.

[Goldenmane]

Ouch. Sounds nasty.

[Royal Dragon]

"It's idiots like you that make the rest of the world hate America."

Reply]
In Black Jack's defense, why does the fact the man has a solid beliefe in one's right to defend himslef, make him hateable by the rest of the world?

Really, does the world think that you should just lay down, and let someone beat you to death, or serious injury? Does the world believe that you should just take the risk that an attacker knows exactly how hard to hit you so you don't become seriously injured (As if he's done intensive scientific study to determin such things?)?

Does the World really belive you can be viciously, and brutally attack by someone, and NOT be at SERIOUS risk of perminant, and dehabilitateing injuries or even death?

Does the world really belive if threatened by a person or situation that the likely out come could very well be serious injury, perminant disability or even death, that one should just lay down, and allow it?

Really man, if the world hates those willing to stand up, and defend themselves, thier famiies or even strangers, then the world really does not desreve us caring about how it feels about us.

I'm sorry, but if someone comes at me in a wild rage, I HAVE to assume the worst possible outcome. If I don't, the chances of me NOT being badly hurt, perminantly injured, or even death is pretty high. In the case of Alex Gong, the fact that he ran this guys car down, and BUSTED THRU his window clearly demonstrated not only the willingness to SERIOUSLY harm, cripple or even kill, it demonstrated he had the means to do it, AND the intent, the desire, and that he was actually in the process of doint it.

Alex Gong was a trained fighter, that was clear by what he was wearing, where he came out of, and the fatc that he busted thru a car glass not only bare handed, but with a PADDED hand. A cxar glass is NOT an easy thing to break wihtout a hammer, but bare handed?? Let alone a PADDED hand? That's serious power, and intent. You don't just question that sort of thing, it's Clear as a bright day what it means.

Think about the situation here guys. When that glass broke, Chastain would have been driven back away form the controlls of the car, he couldn't just drive off without letting Gong get a hold of him first because GONG had controll of that side of the car not Chastain. He KNEW only that it was only few precious moments before Gong got that door open, and gave hime such a serious beating that he might NEVER recover from it, if he lived through it.

He couldn't even take the time to question that conclusion, it was not a time for philisophical, self debate. It was a do or die moment. I highly doubt that Chastain, even for a moment, thought Gong was going to just give hm a "slap in the face and a stern talking to" People don't just break through glass, bare handed, unless they mean serious buissnes. Chastain had mear moments to do something, against a motivated, and VASTLY superior foe who he KNEW could do whatever he wanted to him, and there was nothing he could do to successfully stop it, short of killing him. So he did the ONLY thing he could do in a situation like that, he killed him. Later, he felt such intense guilt for his actions, he took his own life. This was not a man who was captured, and laughing about it, this is a man so guilty over what happened he commited suicide.

[Elxen]

[i]So he did the ONLY thing he could do in a situation like that, he killed him.

The ONLY thing??
As far as I know, a car has more than one door (even in america ;) ) so he could have opened the other door and run iso shooting someone down....

secondly I stick with my previous point; a beating, even a serious one doesn't equal shooting someone in the chest.


Really man, if the world hates those willing to stand up, and defend themselves, thier famiies or even strangers, then the world really does not desreve us caring about how it feels about us.

I do not hate those willing to stand up or whatever but it never is right to kill, especially not when you just wrecked the guys car. You make it seem that he didn't deserve a serious beating?
The chicken**** deserved a serious beating, but he was a coward and rather took a precious life than to get what he deserved.

[Royal Dragon]

As far as I know, a car has more than one door (even in america ) so he could have opened the other door and run iso shooting someone down....

Reply]
Oh yeah, Gong just ran down a CAR on foot, you really think escapeing out the door would have helped? This poor guy knew he could have gotten out of the vehical, but then what? Have Gong catch him in a hundredd feet and beat him half to death? Sorry, shooting him and driving off was his best, safest option. The fact that you make comments like you do sugjests you have never actually been in a violent encounter. I have, you don't ant to make a crucial mistake by underestimating your attackers intentions.


Huh, just a beating you say? In my old neigbor hood, "Just a beating" very often included near death experiances, long hospital stays, months of recovery and being out of work because of it, and I know of more than one individual who have perminant injuries to THIS VERY DAY from attacks suffred in their teens some 15-20 years ago. Only a fool would risk that if he had a gun at his side.

No, shooting Gong was the right thing to do.

[Royal Dragon]

I do not hate those willing to stand up or whatever but it never is right to kill, especially not when you just wrecked the guys car. You make it seem that he didn't deserve a serious beating?

Reply]
If it's NOT Ok for Chastain to defend himself by shooting, then it's NOT Ok for Gong to dish out a "Serious" beating either. No, he did not deserve a beating for mear property dammage. Beattings should be reserved ONLY for retaliation in physical attacks, and then only in self defense. Besides, Gong is supposed to have insurance to cover his car incase of just such an occasion. He's NOT the Law, and he's not Judge, Jury and Executioner either. He's just some guy who works out in that gym. Chasing someone down in blowing through their car window in a blind rage is never acceptable, neither is beating them "Seriously" over mear Property dammage.

Chastain, did the right thing. Gong was asking for it, and got what was comming to him.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by rogue
We know he was a parolee (car theft) who didn't want to go back to prison and was willing to kill someone and himself to make sure he didn't. We could bring up that his goal could have been accomplished by going straight, saving everyone alot of trouble.

How this turned into a sob party for Chastain and turned Gong into a maniac vigilante/hero that saved bus loads of kids, I don't know. Gong was an excellent fighter, seemed like a good business man, and a good guy, so, just by going by the facts that we know you can draw some very simple lessons.

1. No matter how good a fighter you are there is always someone out there that can take you out by either fair or unfair methods.

2. Never try to intimidate someone, you may push them further than you're willing or able to go which means you loose.

3. Never approach a stranger in a car. Watch how cops do it to see it done right, and then remember that even they get killed doing it.

4. Never run into an unknown situation if you don't have to. This is advice that I've recieved from cops, spec ops and firemen. If possible take time to scope out your target. Information is what helps keep you and yours alive.

5. In America guns are a part of life. Good or bad? Who cares, learn to recognize common carry methods and any tell tales that someone is packing. Always keep in mind that someone, especially someone who just did something illegal, could be packing a gun or a blade.

6. Training doesn't always translate from one situation to another.

rogue has caught the correct in bed with his wife and is currently engaged in chasing it down the fire escape.

[Royal Dragon]

Agreed

[Laughing Cow]

One thing I think many have failed to consider.

What target did Axel Gong give the other guy.

Punches the car window out and reaches into the car, not much you can aim at besides the Head and chest which will fill your view.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

[Shaolin-Do]

If the dude waited till the green light to shoot him, he could have apparently driven off anyways. I dont buy it... Human life isnt worth it. mother f*cker should have bought some mace if he was afraid of things like this happening, you dont shoot someone when you get a little scared. Be a man.

[Royal Dragon]

I doubt he "Waited" for the green. He had to shoot Gong first, to get him out of the way so he could get back in the driver's seat before he could drive away.

Gong had Position on him, and that prevented him from driving away sooner.

No matter how you look at it, Gong asked for it, and got what he had comming.

[Serpent]

How many times have people on this forum said something along the lines of:

"Don't pick a fight if you can help it, after all, you never know if the punk has a gun or a knife."

It's what we're all taught. Why now defend Gong's foolishness and gung ho attitude?

Sure, Chastain was a criminal *******. Sure, Gong was a nice guy and didn't deserve to die. But he tried to be a hard ass and paid for it. His mistake. End of story.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford


which was the right moment? after telling Gong that he was wanted by the police and had to split? after Gong started breaking out windows? after Gong started reaching into the car?
Can't forget punching out the lights of the jeep. I'll guess Mr. Gong stopped punching the car when the guy agreed to get out of the car, and I'll guess the guy agree to get out the car when he decided he was going to shoot Mr. Gong.

Bad decision making reinforced by a good outcome. [/B]
I love this quote. It doesn't only apply to this situation. I've seen it over and over and over again. Thanks for sharing.

It is a sad situation for both lives that were lost. Bad decisions were made by both Mr. Gong, and Mr. Chastain.

May God rest both of their souls, and help both of their families through this trajedy.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Serpent
...
But ask yourself this. Without the benefit of hindsight with Gong's case, put yourself in exactly the same position. Can you really say that you wouldn't have chased the guy down?
...

I don't think it was dumb to chase the car down, but it wasn't a good thing to start punching the windows and lights out. It put alot of fear in Mr. Chastain.

I heard a guy say "When people fear you to the point where they think you will kill them, watch your back because they may kill you BECAUSE their fear is soo great."

I'll never forget that.

I chased a guy that hit my car, waited for me to get out of my car and drove off. I later caught up with him at a red-light, reached into his car and pulled out the keys, but not before he started to backup with my arm stuck in the drivers window reaching for the ignition key. I got a hold of the key, the car stopped, and told him to get out. I'm thinking "I'm gonna beat the pope out of him.".

When he got out the car, I felt like if I would've hit him, I would've ripped the skin off his face because he didn't look like he was in shape, or that he could fight (I know, can't judge a book by it's cover.). I felt like a bully, in spite of what he did. Still, he looked really scared, and when he got out the car, he paused like he was going to talk with me, and started running. I didn't give chase. He left his car in the middle of the street. I waited for the cops to show up, but they didn't do sh!t...

I could've got shot in this incident, and only have God to thank that I wasn't. I don't believe it was because of any "right" decisions I made.

I just wanted to share a situation that happened to me which was similar to the incident with Mr. Gong, but didn't end as tragically.

Again, I don't think Mr. Gong was wrong for chasing Mr. Chastain. Even if it was just to try to reason with the person that hit his car.

I apologize if it isn't appropriate for this thread.

[Royal Dragon]

If his plan was to catch him and tell him off, he'd probably be alive today. He died because he attacked him with brutal intent.

[Rockwood]

royal fyi if alex gong had punched anyone with brutal intent they could possibly die from it. The man could punch very very hard. If he had brutal intent no shot would have been fired.

Alex's problem was that he was too nice a guy to begin with. He gave the guy a chance and got shot for it.

-Jess O

[Royal Dragon]

Don't forget he had a AUTOMOTIVE glass to blast through first. That gave Chastain just barely enough time to dive to the other side of the car, and go for the gun. He probably didn't want to shoot him, and delayed as long as he could, but when he realised that was going to be the only way to make it safe to get back in the driver's seat and blast out of there to safety, he was forced to pull the trigger. Gong really gave him no choice in the matter.

Like I said before Gong is just lucky it wasn't me, I would have capped him twice, got out of the car and shot him again for good measure, and I know plenty of other people that would do the same.

[Rockwood]

roy-

Don't probably this or that. If Alex Gong had wanted to punch through glass and then your head or anyone elses there is no fing way in hell you could have stopped it. There would be no going for a gun or a knife or anything. Neck trauma, head caved in etc. So drop the tough guy act.

Alex went for the keys instead of damaging that dude in a possibly permanent way. He was a nice guy and I guess this is what happens to nice guys.

"Like I said before Gong is just lucky it wasn't me"

Shut up you idiot. You're a paper tiger wanna be tough guy.

-Jess O

[Royal Dragon]

No way in hell ANYONE is going to bust thru AUTOMOTIVE glass, AND hit a target on the other side. It's not humanly possile. Automotive glass is to damm tough, it would have absorbed 90% of the inpact. Gong would have had to rechameber and re position and take a second shot. Anyone responding on animal reflex would have run to the other side of the car and ducked down. If he had the gun in between the seats, he would have been I the perfect position to grab it and aim.

It does not matter if Gong was going for the keys, his actions displayed life threatening intent, and he go what he had comming. You can't just expect a guy to sit there and let Gong do whatever he wants to them.

Shut up you idiot. You're a paper tiger wanna be tough guy.

Ok dude, if you say so. :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by FatherDog


rogue has caught the correct in bed with his wife and is currently engaged in chasing it down the fire escape.

hi KKM!


Oh yeah,

tf?/pics!!??

['MegaPoint]

The fact is that guns make cowards courageous. They are here to stay (in the USA) so what can we do about it? The USA is a country of weaklings and cowards. PERIOD.

There is no substitute for prudence. Self preservation means using reason to overcome irrational emotion. Being aware is key as is being smart. Smarts can't be taught. I mean common sense can't be learned. That is forged in your preadolescence and after 16 there is no hope if you have none. Man vs. car is not good. He coulda' got run over. He did get shot. That's why we have insurance. They'll take care of it. It is just a car, nowhere equal to a human life.

Oh well. All martial artists tend to gain confidence. Being over-confident is just as bad as being insecure. Like I've said on here countless times, sport is a pale imitation of life. That is it. There is no sport that will prepare you for reality. NONE. No MMAs, boxing, football whatever. Street smarts comes with real life experience and listening to folks who have been through it. Like I said those Thai Boxers in the Philippines, were fresh meat. They caught muggings and beat downs more than anyone else except for off-duty, drunk Air Police (SPs, now SFs).

You live and learn. Sometimes you die and others learn from you. Most often people think, "that won't happen to me, what I learn in MMAs prepares me for the streets". So laughable. Anyway, like I said before Muay Thai is hard-assed kickboxing and nothing else. It is not a self-defense art. Never was, and never will be. Trick yourselves and the streets will turn you out.

Condolences to Mr. Gong and his family. Sorry he didn't learn the valuable lesson of logic and life preservation in his Muay Thai gym. There is a reason that the Chief-of-Police of Bangkok does Okinawan Karate and Chuan Fa. Muay Thai is for Mafia betting. Human pit bulls. I hope this incident opens peoples eyes. Evaluate things honestly, and don't believe the hype.

Machimura is looking down and frowning on the MAs community. You guys don't know who I'm speaking of, but so what.... :(

[rogue]

Matsumura?

Lots of fantasy in all parts of the martial arts community (TMA, MMA, Reality MA), bought into it myself for too long a time. With all the information, videos and text in print and online you'd think we'd be a little wiser. Ring sports are great but without street smarts they fall way short as a self defense system. On the other hand the "deadly" guys think every altercation calls for causing someone permanent disability.

[diego]

Originally posted by Ryu

Spiderman is a fascist.


Ryu

i always wondered about that guy...any man that walks around in tights and a mask just doing his duties must have some sort of charachter flaw!!.:)