View Full Version : Whats the best style for quick and powerful self defense?

Andy Johnson
01-17-2001, 05:26 AM
Whats the best style for quick and powerful self defense?

01-17-2001, 05:47 AM
I recommend Traditional Kenpo in your area contact Dave Simmons twindragondave@hotmail.com

You will learn fast powerful techniques for self defense and the martial art.

You Have The Power,

Dave S :cool:

01-17-2001, 06:42 AM
Quick and powerful self-defense, no frills, no flowery moves, no wasted motion? Shotokan. For a CMA I would suggest Wing Chun.

K. Mark Hoover

01-17-2001, 03:42 PM
When fighting, don't think too much and just fight.

Any martial art style you learn will be helpful if you train it in that manner.

01-17-2001, 08:23 PM
It's hard to find any traditional school that offers proper full contact training. I would suggest either a local kickboxing or boxing gym or if grappling is more your flavor then a local Judo club.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

01-18-2001, 03:23 PM
Well, there really is no best style. They all have their merits. I personally recommend Ed Parker's American Kenpo or A.K.K.I. American Kenpo
They are very closely related (since A.K.K.I. came out of Ed Parker's Kenpo) and are both centered around real life self defense. However, most styles of traditional Karate and even Kung Fu will work well on the street. For maximum benefit I would recomend crosstrianing in both a stricking art (Kenpo, Kung Fu, Karate) and a groundfighting art like Brazillian Jujitsu or akido. I say this because your best bet is to stop the attacker while standing up (where a striking art is most effective), but in case you do end up on the ground you kneed a good knowledge of how to fight there as well.
Anyway, I hope I have been of some help.

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind, be ready, and go full force.

01-18-2001, 09:03 PM
If all you want is quick and powerful, I wouldn't even worry about styles learn about 5 techniques and work on perfecting them against an opponent.

1) Front thrust kick (pelvic area)
2) vertical punch (solar plexus, head)
3) spear hand (throat, eyes)
4) vertical knee (groin, sides of leg)
5) elbow strike (ribs, chest, head)

You can take out any untrained person if you truly understand all of those techniques. NOW, if you want to be able to handle trained people or people with streetfighting experience then I would find a good school and join.

In my experience with Kenpo it is mainly concerned with the untrained person who steps with his left and throws a right punch (yes there is more, but at the beginning at least in my training this is what it was). My experience in my other art is more concerned with training you from the start against another trained fighter and then you use those principles for an untrained person as well, but it takes a little longer.

"There are many who talk of the Way, but few who walk the Way."

MonkeySlap Too
01-18-2001, 09:11 PM
There is an old Chinese saying that translates as "One year of Shuai Chiao is better than three years of other fist arts."

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

01-23-2001, 08:35 AM
"In my experience with Kenpo it is mainly concerned with the untrained person who steps with his left and throws a right punch (yes there is more..."

You're right. There's more.

01-23-2001, 11:02 PM
In general a striking art and a grappling art!
Boxing, muy thai=striking.
wrestling, bjj=grappling.

Please judge according to your body structure and weather you like CONTACT! I use to be a BANGER so I use to do boxing and muy thai...as I got older( 26 LOL )...my body couldn't take the banging...hurt back and all...so I became more and more a grappler! It ultimately depends on you!


01-24-2001, 07:50 AM

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

01-24-2001, 04:38 PM
Boxing or REAL kickboxing

01-24-2001, 05:40 PM
SCOTT answer is surprisingly correct also...I'm a future police officer...so I would have to say...a gun can intimidate 80% of an opponent out there...the problem is in most fight enviornments...bars, clubs, and restaurants...u're not allowed to bring one in!


01-24-2001, 07:23 PM

I was just curious what branch/style of Kenpo you are studying? My experience has been through Dr. La Tourette's style.

"There are many who talk of the Way, but few who walk the Way."

Martial Joe
01-28-2001, 02:35 AM
I havent taken any other martial arts besides Wing Chun but it has worked great for me,maybe that can help you.

02-08-2001, 02:23 PM
BJJ and more BJJ fro groundwwork.
Stand Up-
Kungfu-White Eyebrow, Dragon, Choy Lee Fut
Wing chun(NOT)
Karate-Goju, Uechi Ryu, Kyukuoshin
And Muay Thai.

02-08-2001, 07:59 PM
All and none !

All styles contain within them the real capacity for self defense hidden in a lot of other stuff that a body can do (art) but shouldn't do in a fight.

The trick is too find these things inside the art you practice and then practice them from a self defense, not a "martial art" pov.

So, I tend to agree with Kevin A. Hirakis, except (of course) my list is a little different in its choices of the most lethal / most efficient strikes.

The only blow that I can't seem to find in classical styles anywhere is the cqc chin jab, a driving of the palm heel straight up into the chin with the hand pointed back to towards yourself...of course palm heel strikes are common and easily modified to this particular form but as a technique in a classical form / kata, it is elusive.

If you know the strike and know a form with this strike in it, please let me know!`

<A HREF="http://]pacificcoast.net/~ttruscott" TARGET=_blank>The Fighting Old Man

02-08-2001, 08:55 PM
The most effective and most efficient way to defend yourself is the ancient art of running. Let's face it, most fights can be avoided if the victim is brave enough to run away, but most don't because they feel ashamed or think it's cowardly to run away.

Even if you are good enough to stand your ground and actaully fight, there are always some consequences of your action. Most trouble makers that are intent on causing trouble have some sort of genetic defects, and even if you give them a good beating, they will try to seek their revenge in other ways. I speak from experience.

So, if you want to learn the most effective method to defend yourself in the shortest time possible, run young man. RUN.

However, if you are not man enough to run away, try genuine Thai Boxing. Believe it or not, most Hong Kong traid members learn Thai boxing because the enforcers can get their soldiers to fight in the shortest time possible. Think about it; they can't wait 3-years to train their members in something like wing chun or choy-li fut.

02-08-2001, 08:58 PM
Why have we sunk so low that a question like this has started a discussion?

02-12-2001, 03:36 AM
With little to no doubt in my mind, the best styles for quick and powerful self defense are Hsing I, P'a K'ua, Silat, Escrima, Praying Mantis, or Shuai Chiao.
Probably in that order.

However, if you are learning from an instructor who is a crock, then what ever you learn is worthless. IMHO, lots of instructors in most arts are not worth their salt. (I am sure that that is at least a little gasoline to the fire.)

If you don't practice by yourself consistantly, you are deceiving yourself. Generally speaking, I find that a person needs to practice a given technique into the thousands of repetitions before they can realize some of the capablities in their arts.

Of course, I have a glock 40 that is quite fast and powerful....


yi beng, kan xue

Martial Joe
02-12-2001, 03:51 AM
how come you listed Wing Chun and Shotokan and then put "(not)" next to them?


02-12-2001, 08:14 AM
I have heard this & asked 1000 times . let me tell you a secret. There is no best or quick way to develop a weapon if you want quick buy a gun also all the styles have somthing good to offer in the selfdefence. one more note somtimes it is not the style that matters but the person behind the style .good luck

02-13-2001, 10:27 AM
...best system anyway, not the best STYLE. Check out Tony bluauers chu fen do (he has a website.)I would recomend any of his videos, the Panther series is a good one. He trains pure street reality in ways that have blown me away. He develops basic tools,attributes,psychology,and some of the most realistic confrontation drills you'll ever find. For "quickie" self defense it is the best hands down. As for what you would want for a styel....you have a buffet of choices!

02-16-2001, 02:16 AM
kung fu san soo

02-21-2001, 04:15 AM
I'm not as strong as anybody that tries to fight me on the street, but then again, I'm given the advantage.It seems to me that u're looking for that same advatage.I've gained it by studying Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu.no blocks, just redirections and extrememly fast powerful attk's/counters.
whatever u practice with Sifu,works on the street-period-
defending:fists,pipes,bricks,sticks,bats,knives,gu ns,u're covered.
no wasted movements,no flowery forms.It's a for real combat system that(trust me) actally works on the streets.

02-21-2001, 08:48 AM
I have tried dozens of styles. The worst are styles like Tao kwon do, SHOTOKAN, any okinowin style, or "hard style" . A hard style is one which is stiff, and has no fluidity or economy of movement. I believe all Jap., okinowin styles fit the hard style description no matter how you try and get around it. Chinese styles are by far the best, but even they can be hard..hung-gar for instance, or shaolin. If you practice a hard style and have to defend yourself against a good streetfighter, or boxer, you will most likely loose! Or the bigger guy will win.
The best styles I've seen so far are: Dim-Mak(death touch) as taught by Master Erle Montaigue www.taijiworld.com (http://www.taijiworld.com), dimmak comes from taijiquan(tai chi), however few people know the true martial applications. Baguazhang is good, hsing-i chuan, wing-chun is also ok. Bruce lee studied chinese arts..he was fluid-quick-and powerfull , look for these qualities.

Seeker of the Way
03-09-2001, 03:06 PM
Here in Denmark, a new school has popped up, called Wing Tsun. It's basically a variant where they have eliminated the philosophy and internal elements of classic Wing Chun, and emphasize on a total all-out attack until your opponent is disabled or dead. To this end, they use chain-punches to the face, kidneys, solar plexus and throat, as well as pressure kicks to the knees. They combine this with the grappling from Krav Maga ( I don't know where KM borrowed it from though), to get what I'd label the most effective self defence system I saw in my life.

Scary as well, because they don't teach temperance or philosophy along with it, they accept every psycho that comes in from the street...

Just my cents, tho...

"I know Kung Fu."

03-11-2001, 08:17 AM
Lesson one : Okinawa culture is NOT Japanese culture. The Okinawans were forced to become Japanese citzens. Like most tropical peoples it was and is hard for them to understand the manic attitudes of the cold weather peoples (i.e. Japanese , but this applies to all "snow folks" , Americans , Brits and Germans (or Teutonic based cultures). Saying they're the same islike saying Hawaiian culture is traditional American culture . Just because your country was taken by another country doesn't mean they're the same culture . Lesson two : Most Okinawans despise all Imperialist powers (especially Japan) . It is true that the Japanese stole Ryukyu Kempo ( Chuan Fa ) , but what they got was an incomplete form of tuite (Okinawan grappling) + Shaolin (Shorin) Chuan Fa. The 3 Shorin Ryu subsystems that I have studied for about 20 yrs. have all the classic Chinese fighting philosophies : powerful but controlled extension on technique(s) , Economy/feasibility of movement
, change body , spacing , circle and point , whipping (relaxation until moment of impact) , etc. , etc. , et nauseum . Everyone of my Senseis have told me that the Okinawan masters would intentionally deceive their subjugators (the Japanese) about technique application (bunkai) , and that Ryukyuan culture was far from synonymous with Japanese culture . On the contrary , it more closely paralleled Chinese culture (originally) if anything . The Okinawan dialect is called Hogan , and is not understandable to the Japanese. In addition , even great Okinawan karateka such as Gichin Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan aka. sport Shorin ryu) were not taught the cherished Fukien Crane forms of Sokon Matsumura due to his friendliness with the Japanese . The Japanese Karates are extremely rigid because they've been reinterpreted by a totally different and regimented people . Find a traditional Shorin or Okinawan Goju (which incidentally means Hard and SOFT) Dojo (training hall) , and talk to the instuctor(s) . Ya' gotta know what you're talking about before you spout rhetoric . I have studied Chinese Kuntao and would like to say that the martial interpretation of Suidi (Shorin Ryu) is just as valid and , in certain aspects even moreso , than the Kung Fu I studied for 6 yrs. I'll pit my martial knowledge against anyone anyday of the week . I try not to practice ignorance and linear thinking ; only the Shorin (Shaolin) Way . You are correct in your assessment of Shotokan , but could not possibly be speaking about the Combat princples of the Uchinanchu and the Shaolin tradition .

unclaimed effort
06-04-2001, 04:29 AM
All styles are limited no matter how effective people say it is, so basically it depends on you. I recommend, however, Wing Chun, 7 star praying mantis. Mainly if you practice right all the styles will become as quick and powerful for self defense. :)

If two tigers fight, the result will be one injured tiger.

Stillness in stillness is not real stillness. Stillness in motion is real stillness.

06-11-2001, 04:09 PM
"Whats the best style for quick and powerful self defense?"

There is only one correct answer: The style you have practiced hard and learned well.

06-12-2001, 12:24 AM
"Whats the best style for quick and powerful self defense?"
There is only one correct answer: The style you have practiced hard and learned well.

And then person woke-up...quick seemed to me to indicatate a person with at least virtually no training to acquire powerful "self-defense". If it is not study time oriented then of courseyou are not wrong~

Kara-te--you can learn techniques quickly that are powerful~ within a month.

Aikido/Juijitsu (not the stuff called Brazilian)/Bujinkan(taijitsu)--can learn powerful self-defense quickly~

I'm not sure how Wing Chun begins but the stance and hands indicate that this would be powerful self-defense learned quickly.

Praying mantis, if the do forms first would be good but might be too techniquey to be a quick learn to get powerful techniques.

Shaolin and the other fighing Kung-fus are too develope the body first to learn powerful sel-f defense quickly.

Arnis type things would be good except weapons arenot all the time on hand, even sticks. So I'm sticking to empty-hand thingies.

Interenal arts--take a month to begin to get propper strength and years to get useable real fight comprehension...

If what was meant was styles~that even after long use gets one quickness and power for "self- defense", then Jerry Love at least as basically correct. They all can be some kind of good. While they have their own -nesses the individual can mold it to accentuate the aspect(s) of choice. Note:this use by preference alters that art from it's way to be passed on. Pass it on the way you're taught~ make it your own~. Shw them your way after you've given them The Way. Then they can find Their Way. Which like children is a littlebit of you and a little bit of your teachers, anf a little bit of their teachers...Perhaps, some-such.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

06-12-2001, 03:32 AM
if you want fast and good self defence. I would say Wing Chun from my experience. The other things I trained in were okay but Wing Chun to be the better.

In a *real* situation speed is a very big factor. In Wing Chun you learn to chain punch and fast at that. You will get very good and quick at it. You may never bother to go further but I encourage you to do so. but if your in trouble a quick Wing Chun punch to the center body or chin or face will do. Then if you got to a higher level of teaching could go for the chin and or neck with other blows. but if you havne't then just go in with loads of chain punches to the head. Nothing fancy and I'm SURE it would knock anyone down. or serveraly beat them. but if you want really quick, how much time do you have exactly? or are you not willing to learn a Martial Art and just want the self defence parts?

Most of the arts will be all practical. But I would say go for Wing Chun. Nothing fancy. Simple movements that can deal alot of pain and power.

Remember when that thug draws his hand back or goes to sing. YOU would have been trained not to swing back and unleash a wasteful movement of a punch. But from where your hands are you will just block with one hand and punch with the other straight to his face. This will easily if your not like a fly hit him off. And you can combo in or run if you want to.

In the end that person said about running. that is ultimately true. If you can run do RUN.


SLUPPA BUT SO...only a Cambodian person may know this....hehe

"Bye 4 now; not 4 ever"

06-12-2001, 07:17 PM
Ahhhh.... (SLC says, bowing to No_Know), "quick", as in short/small training commitment, rather than the velocity with which your body reacts. :D

Rolling Elbow
06-19-2001, 06:36 PM
Learning techniques and applying them are too different things..wake up to that fact. bujinkan budo taijutsu as you mentioned is not a quickly learned and easy to use art. i have seen many lower level people in teh art and they would get smoked by someone with 6 months Wing Chun.

Aikido-budo taijutsu: you are looking at a long way to combat proficiency.(depending on the practitioner of course, but generally)

Short term and wuick defense i would say any art that stresses all out destruction :

JKD,Thai boxing, Krav Maga, Kyokushin kai karate

for quick skills i would say in kungfu :

wing chun and any other southern or norther art with hand skills and realistic applications. Depends on how much form training you do vs. actually using elements of the form in realistic application.

for the others..

Who said Okinawan arts are too rigid? REal masters are not rigid. even Shotokan does not and is not supposed to be soo **** rigid. Allot of chinese arts have also become rigid due to americanization, lets not foget that.

finally, H-sing, Bagua, Tai- Chi- who said they are quick skills learned for defense? They take asl ong as bujinkan budo taijutsu and aikido do.Why? Cause you have to lean to control your whole body and move with principles in mind. Anything that stressees the right basics early on will be good. Movement, strikes,breaks, comfort on teh ground, that is the key.

The downside however, is that no 6 month training will turn a Charles Atlas comic geek into a Bruce Lee unless he was one tough SOB in the first place. 80% of people practicing are all fluff and full of s**t. So someone can give you basic skills, but you need the balls and conditioning to put them to use.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

06-19-2001, 09:00 PM
I see alot of folks here really slagging Shotokan.
In the higher levels you'll start to see more natural less rigid postures. As far as "stiff" goes, sure their stiff. I've seen plenty of people get knocked stiff with simple Shotokan techniques.

06-20-2001, 04:02 AM
Shotokan=Sport Shorin Ryu, but it is better than most other Ryu. Kyokushinkai might be a better "hard" style to learn, although it is similar to Shotokan. I say master one, and learn many.Peace...OP

06-20-2001, 04:54 PM
The psychological and physical conditioning
involved with studying Shotokan serve as a great base from which to start.
I now study CMA but when I studied Shotokan I loved the fact that we sparred every night. Most of our time was spent preparing to fight. Shotokan will toughen you up quick.
I studied at a very traditional school. There was no real "sport" about it. I'm not very familiar with the specifics of Shorin-Ryu, but I will concede that the Okinawan Styles are more effective.

06-22-2001, 07:52 AM
" Mr. Groundking, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything
that could be considered a rational thought.
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

07-03-2001, 08:56 PM
Muay Thai is good, because it teaches you how to grab and knee someone properly.

07-04-2001, 05:57 PM
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for 1 on 1 confrontation.

To be a warrior.....<img src="http://bjj.org/figures/choke-anim.gif"width=35 height=45>>YOU MUST TRAIN!!

07-04-2001, 09:45 PM
find a school of any style that has hands on fighting or sparring. that's the quickest way to learn how to fight. stand up drills and techniques that are called like "plum blossum technique" usually won't do you good on the street unless you have a situation that suits that exact technique. find the right instructor! :cool:

unclaimed effort
07-11-2001, 05:28 AM
Raimondo, by properly do you mean exposing your whole centerline?

When you win a fight, who do you think feels worse, you or your opponent?

07-13-2001, 02:45 AM
Personally, if you're talking fast self defense, you want a quick defense and a limited number of offensive strikes. If you're talking quick, that means you're not talking getting anything really good, just as few techniques as possible so you can still remember proper mechanics.

My personal choice would be Western Boxing. If you've only got a week to train, you could at least learn how to punch correctly. No boxing school will let you spar without at least 6 months of training (acording USA Boxing- the amateur boxing federation). Western Boxing is actually a deep and rich tradition, after getting a good taste of it this summer, it's much more of an art form than I would've ever guessed.

What you described about a punch leaping forward with no pull back is consistent with boxing. I don't know what Rocky movies you've seen, but any pulling back movement, except instantly after the punch is thrown, is generally a bad thing.

I agree with just about everything you said about okinawa and japan. I went to high school there. Eventhough I trained kung fu while I was there, I had a lot of friends who did Shorinryu, Uechi Ryu (or whatever the real name is), Seidokan, and a friend who fought kyokushinkai (although he learned on the mainland). I'm not a huge fan of Shorin Ryu, I'd met Fusei Kiisei a bunch of times. The uechi Ryu fighters were famous for sending 15 year olds to on-base competitions, and breaking Marines' legs in sparring. I remember hearing a saying from the older generation that was popular when the last emperor died: "Emperor die, me no cry". I'd just like to make 1 miniscule correction. Okinawan dialect is Uchinaguchi. Hougen is a Japanese word that's like an umbrella term for any japanese dialect.

In college, nothing to do and no money so no beer.

07-14-2001, 02:42 AM
hey Lost_Disciple,

I meant if the other guy pulls his hand to swing at you which most people tend to do. Then if you have done Wing Chun you won't be swinging your arm back to throw a movie punch. But you will do a good centre line punch from wherever your hands are. Also I know as I do Wing Chun always have my hands out in front of me and never behind me if I can help it. Which is most of the times.

The speed of your punch and you can easily follow in or just keep doing a few centre line punches to hit that guy in the face.

What did you mean anyway?

"Bye 4 now; not 4 ever"

07-14-2001, 02:58 AM
Sorry, didn't mean to get on your case. I thought you were implying that only wingchun would have you firing a punch without pulling your arm back. I guess I misread your first post. I was just saying that boxing does the same, except for the centerline part.

07-15-2001, 12:31 PM
I see you live in Austin. Do you know of Ronald Lindsey of Bastrop? He is a Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu Kyoshi who trained with Kise, Yuichi Kuda and Hohan Soken. His fighting principles are awesome (and very Chinese in their approach).

I have trained in Judo, Boxing, Kuntao, Shorinkan and Matsumura Seito Shorin. Maybe you had contact with the sport oriented Shorin Ryuha? I can't say that I agree with you on your assessment of Shorin, but you're entitled to your evaluation of the art. I found my skills served me well in the Philippines, as they were empirically tested a few times. Most of my self-defense success was due to Shorin ryu principles.

I gather from the "concise" description of your meeting with Fusei Kise you weren't impressed. I know for a fact that although not too personable, Kise is known as a tough and very knowledgeable martial artist on Okinawa.

Uechi Ryu is a very good system, that teaches the sound fighting principles of PangaiNoon. Sensei Lindsey also studied Uechi Ryu in Okinawa. The difference between the fighting efficacy of Uechi and Shorin is nil in my opinion, and we also practice "body-hardening", low kicks, toe kicks, alot of open handed techs, tuite, pp, etc.

Kadena is a beautiful base (if that's where you were stationed) and the Okinawan people are pretty cool! Thanks for clarifying the language of the Uchinanchu. Later... :D

07-15-2001, 09:54 PM
Oops. I'm too lazy to change my profile. I moved to Lubbock from Austin a year ago. I've been back three times since for short periods.

I don't know anything about those instructors you were talking about, I didn't head out to Bastrop much. If I ever go back, I'll try to check them out, but it looks like I'll probly be moving to Baltimore.

Listen, I didn't mean to trash Kiisei. Whatever I've known, seen, or heard about him in the past, I have no right or reason to use as villification of this man. It's a sad thing in martial arts when people only worry about the negative. To his credit, I think he instructs really well, I think his school(s) in the States are doing well, and he's well known in Okinawa. After meeting him on a few occasions, I just had no desire to study with him. Nothing bad about him, just a personal preference. Sorry if my comment seemed to infer anything besides that.

Like I said before, I knew a ton of Karate people on Okinawa, I also met quite a few Okinawan masters. It was probably a waste though, considering I was doing kung fu even at that time- I think someone else would've enjoyed the opportunity a lot more. I honestly don't remember seeing any Shorin Ryu fighters, or Goju Ryu for that matter. I saw a lot of fights with fighters from Pangai Noon (thanx for reminding me of the Uechi style's new name), as well as Seidokan- I'd never heard "seidokaikan" until I came to the US, are those 2 the same? Plus, on TV there were always the kyokushin fights.

One more thing, Uchinaguchi may even be a b*stardization of the original word, considering the suffix "guchi" is the Japanese word for mouth. B*stardization or not, everyone on Okinawa knows the Okinawan language as Uchinaguchi or Okinawan Hougen. Admittedly I was just trying to show off. :D hehehe I lived on Kadena for about 2 and a half years, my parents stayed there for 4 while I went off to college. I love that island, that base, and all the beaches- I used to work at Kadena Marina.
I dream of being able to go back there some day.


07-16-2001, 12:57 AM
L.D.: It's not like I'm totally enthralled by Kise. I know that he is a great Karateka, but to be honest with you I haven't been impressed with any of the Kenshinkan guys that I've seen thus far. According to very reliable sources Kise doesn't even teach the complete rendering of Matsumura Orthodox that he learned from Hohan Soken. His Kenshinkan style is becoming tournament oriented and losing much of its street efficacy. So I don't take any of your comments to heart. No harm, no foul! I was just making the comment that as a warrior Kise is about as raw as they come. He's mean, athletic, intelligent and strong. That doesn't mean that what he teaches, who he teaches it to, and how he teaches it is the final word in MAs.

The Uechi family doesn't really like having their family name used to identify a style of Karate. Since it is the Chinese-derived art of PangaiNoon, it would only be right to call it by its original nomenclature.

What style of CMA do you train in? You're like me. When I was in the Philippines I didn't take advantage of all the great Arnis/Silat/Escrima practitioners they had there and instead concentrated on Shorinkan and Filipino/Chinese Kuntaw. Many of the Karate dojos and schools on Okinawa are commercialised to the bone anyway, and it was even stated by Sensei Kuda of Matsumura Shorin/Kenpo that the best and most innovative instructors of Ryukyuan MAs now reside in the U.S. (although many are on the down-low like Sensei Lindsey, in tiny-assed Bastrop).

I will agree with you that Kadena and Okinawa was off-the-hook and I wish to return one day to seek out a couple of old Masters who now teach very selectively in their backyards. Anyway, good luck in life and the MAS and it was cool connecting with you! Peace... :D

07-16-2001, 07:54 AM
Well I was trying to talk more about not focusing on the negatives in martial arts rather than beg for forgiveness from Kiise followers.

I knew that bit about the Uechis, I just could never remember the name "PangaiNoon". I'd been calling it Uechi Ryu since I'd heard about it and a few months before I left Oki they started telling me that wasn't the name. I got some copies of some papers from Kathy Baxter-Lukopolus of Goju Ryu that detailed a lot of the exchange between China and Okinawa, leading to the formation of the different karate styles. They talked about the origins of PangaiNoon as well as Goju- which styles of kung fu they came from and which provinces.

When I was in Okinawa I studied under Norm Burland, who'd studied Green Dragon (SL Martin style out of NJ) in Hawaii until his sifu left, then 2 years under Master Chuek of Hawaii (White Crane & Choy Li Fut), and finally between 6 months and a year under Vernon Rieta (Hung Gar and Choy Li fut) before getting transferred off Hawaii. Sifu Norm had been training for about 10 years under Master Hokama Masamitsu (Chen Taiji, Simplified Taiji, and Hsing Yi) who teaches in Shuri. Norm was a certified instructor under Hokama. Someone else on this board studies under Hokama as well. We used to go down there on Sundays. Shortly after I joined though, Norm stopped going down there and started going to the Okinawa City Taiji club- a member of the Japanese Wushu Taiji Federation. There he perfected his competition forms and picked up 42 step sword as well as 42 step open hand. His lineage may be ugly but he knows how to use what he's got.

I learned a lot of what Norm had in a relatively short time cuz I hung out with him everyday. I was sad to go off to college.

My junior year of college I got a co-op with IBM in Austin and started training of Jeff Hughes of the Kung Fu Exchange (7* Praying mantis) and went up to Round Rock for Sifu Pickens' Shuai Chiao class to learn some basics.

Came back to college about a year ago, unfortunately. In early may I started training everyday with a friend of my roommates who'd done San Da in Taiwan. I learned some of the western boxing and he helped me improve my kicks and my shuai chiao. It was only 2 months of training but I learned a lot, and I think I got a bit better.

Might be moving to Baltimore soon and hopefully I'll get to train with Tai Yim.

I'm not an instructor of any style, nor more than a beginner in anything. My problem is due to the fact that I've been moving around about every 6 months to a year for the last 8 years. If I'd stayed 8 years in one style, I'd probably be almost decent by now. Hopefully my next move will be my last one for a long time.

Sorry for the long post. Probably a lot more history than you wanted to know.

[This message was edited by Lost_Disciple on 07-16-01 at 10:59 PM.

[This message was edited by Lost_Disciple on 07-16-01 at 11:01 PM.]

07-28-2001, 07:42 AM
Arnis ;D

Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..

07-28-2001, 02:06 PM
originally posted by unclaimed effort

"Raimondo, by properly do you mean exposing your whole centerline?"

By properly I mean grappling your opponent effectively, so it is harder for them to escape while you knee them, and therefore making it harder for them to strike back at you. In fights I've been in, distances tend to be closed quickly (although that could be just the way I am trained to fight, making close up strikes (knees and elbows) and grapples more effective, and untrained swings less effective.

Last time I checked, thai boxing was not wing chun, and does not use centrelines.

08-15-2001, 08:17 AM
I love kung fu. But for QUICK and powerful? I'd say screw kung fu altogether (kung fu means skill over TIME). Check out www.scars.com (http://www.scars.com) and learn how to destroy bodies from a man who's actually done it -- ALOT of it.

Quote from the founder of SCARS: "The smell of feces stays with you forever." Referring to men he's actually killed first hand -- the victim craps himself. Not pretty but shows you the level of violence one may have to actually confront if one is going to train for real-life combat.

may the force be with you

08-15-2001, 09:01 PM
I knew there was a scars guy in here. :p

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

08-16-2001, 10:03 AM
Not a SCARS guy. Just read about it and it seemed like an effective system for someone who wanted to be able to handle run-of-the mill thug situations with minimal training time. The founder of SCARS has undeniable experience if you believe his press -- which I do.

Anyway, I'm a "want to be an excellent fighter" guy. I'm interested in more advanced training that might take me much longer to master than an intensive one week training seminar but that will bring me to a level where I am able to handle advanced fighters/multiple fighters in a hostile combat situation.

I have the opportunity to study Jook Lum Mantis with one of Henry Poo Yee's students. That's the route I'm going to take for now.

Any suggestions?

may the force be with you

08-16-2001, 12:28 PM
running away always works for me.

08-16-2001, 01:02 PM
bigjoe, that's a good one.

i'd have to say that it's up to the person. maybe someone with longer and stronger legs might want to try out something like tkd. maybe a smaller, weaker guy might want to try out wing chun.

i tried out tkd for a couple of years but at the end, i knew it wasn't something really for me. my kicks weren't as strong and i didn't have as much balance needed to follow through with a tough kick.

since i'm a smaller guy, short range fighting is something that works for me. that's why i practice wing chun. i personally liked the idea of using my hands more than my feet and the kicks are low so i wouldn't lose my balance.

i'd say wing chun is a very effective style (i'm biased though) as well as choy lee fut since there are high, medium, low kicks, different knuckle strikes, sweeping, chin na, throwing, swings, etc. it's a complete system and that's what i like about it.

i think crosstraining two styles could be something effective too. i'm thinking about mixing my wing chun with something else- probably an internal style though- in a couple of years when i'm out to college. :p

08-16-2001, 01:09 PM
frankly, i'd have to say that grappling is something one shouldn't use in a real fighting situation. when grappling, you expose way too much of yourself and it takes a long time to finish an opponent. what if you were rolling on the floor with a guy trying to steal your wallet... he might have a partner and his partner could just stab you while you're on the floor.

if someone wanted to learn grappling, i'd advise him/her to learn a striking art also... maybe muy thai, boxing, kickboxing and use the grappling as a "back-up" weapon.

i'm not posting this message as an attack against grapplers. i'm sorry if i've offended anyone but this is just my honest opinion.

08-17-2001, 04:35 AM
TKD for street fighting? What the fizuck?! Reality ain't what you want it to be, it's what it is!

08-17-2001, 07:27 AM
wingchunsl - definitely. i have a friend called simon, who just got the under 18s national title for brazilian ju jitsu. he has a lot of stories about guys from his (BJJ) club and the fights theyve gotten into - one guy, who is the queensland champion, got tackled in a bar. i dont remember the technical term, but he went to the ground with the other guy, and ripped all the ligaments in the attackers shoulder. at this point, the attackers friend stomped on the BJJ guys head 5 times, knocking him out.

i still plan on doing BJJ one day tho, just to see what its like.

08-17-2001, 12:04 PM
Takeonesdough... lol... classic... have to remember that...

My anus is superior™

08-26-2001, 08:35 PM
I completely agree with what San*****a said. The fewer techniques you have and the better you know them, the less confusion you will face in a fight and the better you will do. Being well-rounded is also key. Study a little bit of everything (kicking/striking as well as grappling/pressure points) and you'll be prepared for most of the self-defense situations you'll encounter.

08-27-2001, 10:10 PM
The only answer worth reading is SLC's.

08-28-2001, 11:41 PM
will also get you into fighting shape mentally and physically pretty fast. They train like madmen and like top athlete's. The belt tests are KILLER.
They make you earn 'em. There's nothing like earning a Kenpo belt. You'll walk out of there pumped, 5 pounds lighter(from fluid loss) and feeling like you can walk on water.

You will also be one of the sorest Mutha's the next day!!!!!!!!

08-29-2001, 09:04 PM
I saw that there were some earlier posts referring to having a gun. One of the posts was put up by someone who apparantly is in some kind of training to become a police officer. I would have expected a different answer from a person studying law enforcement...but whatever...

Here's what I would say on the subject of guns. True, guns are intimidating (and for a good reason). I am NOT opposed to guns or gun ownership...I own at least 6 of them (and I only have 2 hands...does that make me a fanatic?). However....

As far as police are concerned...let's remember that the police UNIFORM is just as much a part of the intimidation as the presence of the gun. People are not, generally, intimidated by police because they carry guns (police officers rarely pull their guns out)...they are intimidated by them simply because they ARE POLICE. They have authority.
Joe Public carrying a gun does not have any recognized authority. The gun can bring him SOME authority...but it will be more of a bully's authority.

The other thing is that there is no "non-lethal" use of a gun. Don't be fooled by the movies. As an Emergency Medical Technician, I can tell you that ANY gun shot wound can be life threatening...even the "shoot 'em in the leg" type. You have large arteries in all of your limbs and in your torso and it doesn't take long to bleed to death from a gun shot wound in the leg.

Not to mention...you might not know your opponent. There is a possibility that your opponent could be ex-military or otherwise trained to take your gun away and kill you with it.

The use of a gun in combat requires as much training as a Martial Art does...don't let anyone make you think differently. Yeah, punks and gangs use guns all the time...but how accurately do they seem to shoot? Not too accurately considering how many innocent by-standers get shot in the course of a gun fight. The police are a much better example of how to use a gun in a populated area. They only shoot when they have a clear shot of the target. They shoot two (2) bullets at a time from a handgun(not 17) or 3 from an M-16 or submachinegun--if it's a really nasty fight (not 32 bullets or however many). Shotguns are used only in certain circumstances (like the assault rifles and submachineguns) because their rounds "scatter". Police always consider the "over penetration" of the bullet. Meaning they always consider what is BEHIND the target and where the bullet will go if it misses or passes THROUGH the target. And they always fire from a covered position if at all possible.
So...again...there is alot of training involved in the proper use of a gun for defense.

Perhaps, the previous comments were made in fun...but just in case some naive person wandering the 'Net should read them. I wanted to make a few more reality-based comments on it.

Guns don't kill people....people kill people. ;)

"There is only ONE karate"

08-31-2001, 11:53 AM
Well put. True.

may the force be with you

yin lion
09-13-2001, 09:43 PM
I looked and there were 64 responces that reminded me threr are 64 hexagrams. which are derived from all combos of the eight tri-grams. My responce is just that eight tri-gram palm (bagua). sence the style is inturnal it has much more power than an strictly exturnal style. also I would sugest yin style (that which I do) and the lion system of yin style, due to the VERY agressive moves most often called mean by my pers. in the phicial movements you plow through the attacker breaking his root and tossing him into his head or sholder breaking it. sounds mean does it not.

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

09-13-2001, 10:58 PM
I am sure some people will diagree with me on this, since it seems that the average new students seems to want immediate results. It seems to be a common question I get when I get a new student-"How long will have to do this to become street effective?" I will tell you this question is very understandable but I also cringe when I have this asked by a brand new student. I feel he/she is already counting thier days to quit training once they feel they know enough. I actually had this said to me by a very cocky student once. This student just one day stopped coming to class and when I inquired why he left he said that he had learned enough. By the way he trained with me maybe 3-4 months. I couldn't believe this, since with the many years I have trained in martial arts I still look at myself as a student and always will be.

In my opinion I will say I believe with the right teacher Wing Chun is one of the easiest systems to learn and to become street effective quickly, though it isn't something you go to class once or twice a week for 3-4 months and know enough (as it was put to me).

Though don't get me wrong I personally believe we can and should learn from other systems, whether they be traditional or the average street fighter or boxer at the local gym. The statement I give to these types of students is it isn't how fast or how much you learn it is what you learn. Not to mention the quality of what you learn, which is obviously in most cases determined by who you choose as an instructor. And no I am not speaking about who has the best lineage or most famous teacher or how much you spend. I for one can tell you my best training came out of a park, garage or a back yard by not so well known instructors (at least outside of the region they were teaching).

I for one believe some styles are better than others, though it isn't always the art as the practitioner. What I mean by this is though one may not be a TKD fan I promise you there are though within that system that will woop it up with the best from any other system.IMHO. I believe this to be true with any system vs. another. :D

Laine Nakachi
10-15-2001, 09:28 AM
What's the best style for quick and powerful self defense.

< Little Chain Monkey,

Actually,you need a combination of a system which contains hand to hand combat
like kung fu and kempo,and joint locking or joint breaking techniques like chin na or jujutsu.
Throwing techniques like judo or shuai chiao ( Chinese version of throwing )
Grappling such as Bjj or chin na ( the chinese version of grappling .

So actually ,you need to learn the arts that contains these components.
To make yourself completely trained in all aspects of combat.
And attach them together,and you have a complete martial arts system.

Kempo or kung fu already contains joint locks or joint breaking techniques.
And take downs.
Wing Chun itself contains grappling,so you need to learn throwing techniques.

And if you do have a chance to spar or experiment with a partner or a friend.
Do so,you also need to get accustomed and adjusted to the techniques,you're learning.

Best thing to do is to avoid the confrontations.
If cannot then you're going to have to do what you,really don't want to do.
Blast the attacker,but finnish the attacker off as soon as you can,other wise
your energy going be drained.

Condition yourself both mentally and physically.

Develop drills which is design for your self defense techniques.
Example: If your attacker throws a right hook at your face.
What's the best way to defend against that right hook,and so on .
So in your mind,you need to fantasize these things happening,and if you been practicing your self defense techniques ,
the answer will pop up in your mind .
If your attacker moves in a certain way,what are the ways you can use against your attackers moves.
It's the man who makes the art,not the art makes the man.
If you find a way to make your system better do it, you may benefit ,from it.

Take Care and goodluck ,

Fe luk

SanSoo Student
10-17-2001, 06:02 AM
Kung Fu SanSoo is in my opinion the best for street fighting. I have trained in this art for 12 years, and hold a 2nd degree black belt. I still remember my first day there, I learned how to elbow a guy in the neck, then follow by a rake in the eyes and knee in the groin. In my first day, I just learned how to kill, and blind an attacker coming with a punch to the face.

10-17-2001, 06:24 AM
Training for realistic situations is one of the most important aspects of kungfu training. I of course like taijiquan for self defense, otherwise I wouldn't study it, but I would never say something so ridiculous as calling one art the best art for street fighting.
Having established that realistic training is important, I ask you all about the whole of martial arts training. Yes, these arts were (and still are)used in life and death situations, but they also strengthen your body, give you more energy, flexibility, better structure, and hopefully, calmness in difficult situations.
Although training for combat is key to the martial arts, I think we can get a little carried away with learning to kill people, or too excited about it. There is much more to martial arts than eye-ripping, throat-crushing, and groin smashing. Not that you shouldn't learn these skills, but SanSoo Student, if someone punches you, will you really want to blind them for life? Why would you want to tear someone's eyes out, or elbow them in the throat? You might have to do this in a life or death situation, but seriously, do you really think you'll need to kill people?
There is more to martial arts then killing. I can go buy an Ashida Kim(hahaha) book to learn places to stab people, take a few months of BJJ and Boxing, and be better than any average person at fighting. But that doesn't mean I have any sort o****, or real, deep skill. It just seems you(SanSoo Student) get a little carried away with learning how to kill people who punch you. But then again, I'm probably wrong.
Just my thoughts,

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

11-06-2001, 05:31 AM
A good effective style? Try either Tiger style kung fu, Wing Chun, Hung gar or traditional Japanese Bujinkan Nin Po Tai Jutsu (ninjutsu).
If u are really serious about training-Ninjutsu is definately the best for winning any fight without the type of aggression that these other styles I mentioned have. But they are all pretty good, but u shouldnt do all of them!