classmates

[neit]

do you judge the quality of your school, by your classmates? if i chose to make them a big factor in evaluating my school, i should find somewhere else to train. i am pretty sure that most of them cannot fight. even the ones who have been around for years. its hard to tell wether the instruction is lacking, or the students are just terrible. my school is one of the oldest and well known in my city yet it has few students and most are not very good.
:confused:

[quiet man]

An excellent question, IMHO. The quality of my classmates is very important to me, because
1) if my sifu is a good fighter, then he'll defeat me,
2) if my sifu is a good teacher, then my sihings will defeat me.

In my case, both statements need to be true, and both are true (but of course, these aren't the only things I need). My dai sihing is my age, has three or four years more training than me (and his training includes about two years of private lessons with sifu) and he kicks me around like I'm a rag doll.
Then there's this other sihing, who has 2 years more training than me, but he trains at home like his life depends on it (he'll do 2 hours of quaan sau daily), and he also kicks me around... I won't go any further, suffice to say I get kicked around a lot :D .

[Kristoffer]

I agree fully with quiet man.
A sifu can be able to kick Tysons ass but can he teach it? The school's students is only as good as the sifu can teach.

[No_Know]

Students can be shown well. But they only Do as much as they choose and as little as possible-this varies.

[Ray Pina]

Can your teacher use his stuff? Can you learn from him so that you can turn his stuff into your stuff? That's all that matters. Forget everyone else.

[Shaolinlueb]

our sifu was very good. pushed us hard, made us into good quality students. I am a head isntructor and I do the same. im not a jerk about it cause a lot of people at our school virew it as a hobby. But they have good kung fu. they're not going to achieve it overnight. If i had to judge the quality of our school on our students right now. I would say we have a good school.

[red5angel]

I tend to look at the students as individuals and then try to gauge a sort of learning curve to see if the people in a class are learning alot or well. If the students seem to be doing well, regardless of individual skill, then the class must have some value to it.

[Starchaser107]

It fluctuates, sometimes theres a good amount of dedicated students that train hard , and someone from the outside looking in would say by those standards that this is good. sometimes there are more hobbyists just going through the motions , not interested in putting thier time or really much effort into it...the most that can be done is try to explain to them that this is self sabotage but ultimately they cant be forced to train on thier own , or give it 110%.
I've been with my school for a whiile now, during which time i've seen people come and go, only a few remain. Nothing is static everything is always changing. I have developed and learned a great deal from my sifu, so for me it is a good school, if it depended on the performance of other students to determine wether i stayed or went...then there would be times i stay and times that i go, but i don't think in those terms. "Don't watch me , watch yourself"

[neit]

hmmm, i am guessing its time to move. its bad when a beginner such as myself is more competant than most of the senior students. sometimes it is just depressing seeing some people work out.

[Ray Pina]

I walke into my old Wing Chun school able to beat all but two guys from day one: one was there for 13 years, the other five but 250lbs.

If I walked away I would never have learned how to stick to or trap my apponant. I would never had learned the importance of sensitivity training (my isshin-ryu lacked it) and most of all, I'd have no idea of what my internal Master is talking about. That was the bridge for me. I needed that.

Don't worry about anybody else. How is the material? That's really all that matters ... and what YOU do with it.

[Yung Apprentice]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".


If your sifu looks to be a good teacher, but the student's aren't grasping it, because they are not putting forth the effort, then it's still is a good school. But that can lead to problems. When sparring, having no students who can actually give you a challenge.

Problem with that is, it's hard to tell if the students suck, because the sifu is a bad teacher, or because they are bad students.

[neit]

well we don't spar, but thats another reason to leave

[Mr Punch]

As Red5 says, you should give a wee while and see if you can guage which ones of the students are working, and which ones are plain stupid before you judge on the quality of the teacher based on his students.

Even then, you should be able to learn something from even the slowest students.

And it's more important that, if there is a grading system, obviously bad students aren't graded highly. I've been to one school in particular where there was a woman who was terrible... fair enough, but she was on the belt before black, and she couldn't do anything required of that level, and furthermore she showed everyone up when a newb came to class. I didn't mind: it always gave me something to do, and an exercise in patience... but it turned out to be a symptom of a guy who charged for his gradings and never failed anyone.

[SaMantis]

neit, before you take off, talk to the sifu (or head instructor) about your concerns, and the goal you're trying to reach.

If it's fighting proficiency or solid forms work (or both), and you're not seeing that, tell him. Of course, be polite about it. How the sifu responds after that talk is up to him. If the training becomes satisfactory, great; if you decide to look for something else, fine; but in either case the sifu knows the source of your dissatisfaction and why you left (if you leave). He won't be happy to hear it, but you're doing the honorable thing and telling him the truth about how you feel.

[neit]

SaMantis - i think you are wise. i will try and think of a tactful way of putting it.

[No_Know]

Neit, If there were better students than you at which you could look and from which you could learn, then how would you think you would feel to have them leave because you were not at their level?

If they need to get better you can help by being as good as you are for them to learn from. As you would learn from better than you.

But if you feel you are not improving...Do it anyway any look at how it seems unsatisfactory. Then address that. Supposedly it's a process.

Whatever whatever, very good.

[shaolinboxer]

A great teacher always has excellent students.

[No_Know]

Is that excellence, perfect technique from the beginning?

Or is that excellence, students recalling as best they can what they were last show and putting it together as best they can.

Note: excellent students; it's not about perfect technique, but perfectING technique.

Perhaps, perhaps some might think or say. Perhaps perhaps.

[neit]

no_know - i am afraid that the other students cannot learn much from me. first of all since they have been around longer they assume that they are much more advanced than those who have just started. also forms wise they know more than me. it's actually rather annoying when someone tries to give me "pointers" when they are not even doing the stance properly.

[Shaolin-Do]

Neit, I cant tell you how much i see eye to eye on this.

Brown belt in style X who has been training for 1 yr thinks hes a bad mofo compared to this newly minted yellow belt with 3 months of training... and a BB in BJJ and Muay Thai and 14 Yrs experience in MA... ect.
You get my point. Assumptions are a dangerous thing.

[shaolinboxer]

I would only advise to be careful when considering what is "proper". For example, at my school we have say...15 really great stylists. All of them have unique ways of expressing their technique, even though they all have one head teacher. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether your stance looks exactly like your sifu's stance. Only that it contains the essense of, for example, stability.

I have many people I train with who complain "wait, is it this way, or that way", to which I respond "well the point is this...so which feels better?"

When in doubt, ask the old man. When still in doubt, try everyone's solution, then find your own.

[No_Know]

That's unfortunate for them and you.

As you are a beginner~ at that school~ you will do pretty much as you are told and therefore are a reminder of what the general correctness is in at least some areas. People that have gone through it can remember the correct parts and recognize what is you trying to get it, and correct their deviations from how it was supposed to be to the point that does not go beyond shaolinboxer's mention of individual, yet correct.

[Shaolin-Do]

"As you are a beginner~"
Not really... :)
Ive had people try to show me all kinds of silly sh!t....

[No_Know]

You might wonder. Even ask about it a little. But if they don't know it you don't win to point out they don't~ Do what they say is right and go through the procedure of someone equal or higher up seeing wrong in you then you can say so and so said this. Then so and so gets straightened out you get a more correct version. Everyone learns in an environment of tolerance.

Perhaps some such. One might say.

[Shaolin-Do]

Id never treat someone stupid for trying to correct me, unless it was done in a condescending manner. Theres something to learn from everyone, just keep your eyes open. I just laugh it off and move on most the time, if not try to correct them myself. If they dont listen, I figure it will get corrected as soon as sifu notices. I dont need to go around saying so and so said this or that.
:)

[No_Know]

I've heard it said that, Everything is big in Texas. Shaolin-Do's Heart is no exception.

[taijiquan_student]

In regard to the original post: I hope not! I can count the number of classmates of mine who don't suck one hand. That's not counting the senior students, who all kick major as.s, but most of the people in my class aren't intrested in learning the martial aspect. Currently our sanshou class consists of me, two of my other classmates, and a senior student.

[R]

" i am pretty sure that most of them cannot fight. even the ones who have been around for years. its hard to tell wether the instruction is lacking, or the students are just terrible.

first of all since they have been around longer they assume that they are much more advanced than those who have just started.

kung fu instructors are very hard to be honest with(in my experience).

its bad when a beginner such as myself is more competant than most of the senior students."

Now I see that you aren't happy training and that you are better and more knowledgable than your classmates. How long did you say you have been a student at this school? If you have already mastered kung fu then perhaps you should look to another art.

Perhaps you should find a school where your obvious talent will be appreciated. Consider a Brazilian Ju Jitsu school or perhaps a shoot fighting establishment. In fact you might find that you might do well at boxing or any of the other arts. There is always the consideration that maybe it is time for you to start up a class of your own.

Anyways should you decide to continue to train in kung fu feel free to come visit where I train anytime and you can work out as hard as you desire.

Best of luck at you new club/school.

Ross

[joedoe]

I don't know what your school is like, but I think you should bear in mind a few things. How qualified are you to objectively determine that you are better than the seniors? Have you ever seen any of your seniors fight? Have you sparred any of your seniors, and if so have you sparred them often enough to determine that you are in fact better than them?

Just a few things to think about ;)

[Serpent]

Something else to consider. Rent and stuff like that is expensive. In order to run a viable school, one has to make enough money. The large majority of that money comes from the students that make up the bulk of the class - yet maybe only 10% of them are serious martial artists. The other 90% are hobbyists, doing it for fun, for fitness, to stoke a little ego and any of a dozen other reasons. This is fine as they are the ones that finance the whole operation - the 10% of dedicated students could never keep the place open on their own.

Therefore, judging a teacher by his students is a dangerous area - make sure you are judging him/her only by that 10% and not the 90%. That's not an easy thing to do.

People will work only as hard as they are willing to do. A teacher can teach them only as much as they are willing to learn. Everybody needs to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

If your teacher is good and you have the desire and the drive to learn all that he can teach you, why be concerned by others in the class?