TCM for virtues/emotions [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

blooming lotus

08-13-2003, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Former castleva
"the list goes on, and I'm not gonna really stretch myself here to cater for you Former Castleva as that would be a waste of my time. Past experience dictates that a degree of mental flexibility in ones approach is not your forte.
"

Well,thanks for providing me with those.Considering where they seem to come from,I do not think there is much more to convince me.Of course,a simple example would have done.
While I´m not entirely sure what the case of mental flexibility is,I´ll be quick to point out that there is little room for superstition.

To appear polite,I´ll provide one with a random site (to start with) about the correlates of organs and emotions,and so on..;
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/lobe.html

hmmm.

To take that deeper and to bring it back to the qi, also for anyone else interested (like it needs western science for conformation!?!)- and Being that you have noteable interest in nuero - science, you should be familiar with nano - technology and specifically remnant resonant energy (qi) which we all posess and has a direct correlation to both emotional and physical health and well being. if not please explore quorumglobal.com
If you need more, I have recently recieved further documentation on dhea, a precursor, or source ingredient, to virtually every hormone your body needs which when an increase of 10mg / lt occurs within blood levels, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (december 11, 1986), causes a 35% reduction in motality rates by acting as a buffer against stress related hormones such as cortisol. please see www.meditate.com.au

hope this helps

p.s. should you not find the pearl after several divings - do not blame the ocean

;)

Stacey

08-14-2003, 08:44 PM

emotions and elements.

Nervousness effects the kidney...making you need to pee before a fight.

Repulsive Monkey

08-15-2003, 04:37 AM

Fear to be exact but thats only because in TCM the Kidneys control the lower two orifices and thats why in a fearful situation one can empty their trousers as an involuntary action.

woliveri

08-18-2003, 08:01 AM

This doctor has been very successful with this method of removing emotional blockages from patients:

www.modernmedicalchikung.com

Former castleva

08-20-2003, 06:40 PM

"There you go again! superstition and TCM for you seem to be inextricably interwoven.
I cannot abide the weak minded when they make themselves rigid and shoot themselves in the foot by blindly beleiving that Western medicine is the way forward and is the be all and end all.

Thats fine Former, I'll leave to that cul-de-sac mentality, but for the others who are hughely entrenched I do hope they manage to pull their way out of it, and accept that western medicine and in fact western science does NOT hold the monopoly on actuality."

I wonder whether the "argument to geography" of "western" science will ever leave us.
I guess I will not be getting any data on your alleged relations concerning the pathology of,say,colon and "spirit"?
It still requires a decent leap of faith to eat this up.

vikinggoddess

09-02-2003, 09:21 AM

Hi I'm new to this forum, so I'm coming in late on this topic.

I actually wrote a paper last month on using 5 elements to regulate emotion. You can see what you think....

<a href="http://chinesetherapeutics.org/elementmusic.html">
5 elements, emotion and music</a>

vikinggoddess

09-02-2003, 09:24 AM

http://chinesetherapeutics.org/elementmusic.html

Daredevil

09-02-2003, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Former castleva

It still requires a decent leap of faith to eat this up.

It takes a leap of faith to believe in western medicine as well.

A belief in a scientific reality is just that. You choose to believe the beginning assumptions and subsequent conclusions which form your paradigm. You do this based on empirical evidence and logic. It's all good.

But ultimately, it is just a belief.

And convincing someone not willing to believe is very difficult. No description of brain regions and pictures of the same will convince someone of your truthfullness. You're the exact same, but on the other side of the divide.

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem is proof enough inside Western science for me. All systems of science are ultimately lacking. No system can completely depict all the truths in existance.

Also, that you can conceive of a system to describe the workings of something, does not mean you cannot conceive another, different system to do the exact same. All this leaves room for other systems, other depictions, to be possibly true.

Of course, words will usually fail to create belief. I suggest you get personal experience of TCM to validate your disbelief. In fact, I suggest I get personal experience, too. I've no clue personally if it (acupuncture and such, I do qigong though) works, but the same could be said for my experiences with western medicine. It seems to work for a lot of people, though. So does TCM.

I keep an open mind.

Former castleva

09-02-2003, 01:21 PM

"It takes a leap of faith to believe in western medicine as well.

A belief in a scientific reality is just that. You choose to believe the beginning assumptions and subsequent conclusions which form your paradigm. You do this based on empirical evidence and logic. It's all good.

But ultimately, it is just a belief. "

Sure,after you have demonstrated that.It is funny that you actually mix "empirical evidence and logic" with "belief".

"And convincing someone not willing to believe is very difficult. No description of brain regions and pictures of the same will convince someone of your truthfullness. You're the exact same, but on the other side of the divide."

False analogy,it sounds.
Let´s put it simply.
I´m not out to convince anyone of MY truthfullness.Ultimately,the decision is one´s own.The material is there for you to look,feel free to challenge it (turn over the whole of modern neuroscience,you will not be forgotten).This thread was,originally,about emotions,and I´m offering my insight.I did also ask about TCM´s approach to this,and whether it holds water.I received no direct answer/evidence for it´s favour.
Now,here´s a random site on tcm/emotions;
http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/article.asp?PageType=article&ID=1278#The Emotions and Mental Disease

It is said;
"Traditional Chinese medicine considers that the emotions are governed by individual organs. "
"In China there is less 'mental disease' as we know it in the West, because the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or spleen,"
"Each organ is given a particular emotion; for instance, the liver is said to be the organ affected by anger. "

Or as Repulsive Monkey put it;
"but only as far as an imbalance of the emotions having clinical significance. All five emotions are obviously related to their specific organ.."

I consider these quotes important in our case.
I´d encourage you (the general "you" included) to tell how this wisdom applies.Please,whether you answer or not,do try avoid telling me how "close-minded","weak-minded" etc. I am for not accepting these explanations by faith.

"Also, that you can conceive of a system to describe the workings of something, does not mean you cannot conceive another, different system to do the exact same. All this leaves room for other systems, other depictions, to be possibly true."

What kind of a system do we need then? I think it is very easy to resort to ad hoc explanations in cases as this.
Additionally,you would have to demonstrate that there actually is something there that cannot be explained with the current system/needs another system (this also carries the danger of ad hoc).

Daredevil

09-02-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Former castleva
Sure,after you have demonstrated that.It is funny that you actually mix "empirical evidence and logic" with "belief".

I'm glad it's funny. Please, elaborate.

Take into account that you actually have to first believe that empirical evidence is worth anything. For a long time people didn't believe in it. The same goes for logic.

I mean it sure seems obvious, but many of the things we take for granted aren't. It's cultural conditioning

Originally posted by Former castleva
I´m not out to convince anyone of MY truthfullness.Ultimately,the decision is one´s own.The material is there for you to look,feel free to challenge it (turn over the whole of modern neuroscience,you will not be forgotten).This thread was,originally,about emotions,and I´m offering my insight.I did also ask about TCM´s approach to this,and whether it holds water.I received no direct answer/evidence for it´s favour.

Very well. I admit you didn't insist people should accept your truth. However, your exposition did imply a sort of ... truthfullness beyond that of the opposite view. No insult meant here!

Originally posted by Former castleva
I´d encourage you (the general "you" included) to tell how this wisdom applies.Please,whether you answer or not,do try avoid telling me how "close-minded","weak-minded" etc. I am for not accepting these explanations by faith.

As for me, I didn't directly mean to say you're any of the above, but I'll admit that the implication might have been there. Just what I "accused" you of doing. :)

Originally posted by Former castleva
What kind of a system do we need then?

Lots of systems. Evolving systems. That's what I like about science. It is that. But it is not gospel (hey, there I go again mixing science with belief ....)

Former castleva

09-02-2003, 03:56 PM

"I'm glad it's funny. Please, elaborate."

Well,when you have the former as your guide,the latter loses value.

"Very well. I admit you didn't insist people should accept your truth. However, your exposition did imply a sort of ... truthfullness beyond that of the opposite view. No insult meant here!"

He,he.I guess one could see it that way then (not offended).
What I´m revealing is just factual information.

"As for me, I didn't directly mean to say you're any of the above, but I'll admit that the implication might have been there. Just what I "accused" you of doing. "

I was not referring to you all that much.

"Lots of systems. Evolving systems. That's what I like about science. It is that. But it is not gospel (hey, there I go again mixing science with belief ....)"

Evolution is a universal law (applies to science).

Daredevil

09-03-2003, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Former castleva
Well,when you have the former as your guide,the latter loses value.
The latter (empirical evidence and logic) needs the former (belief) to even exist. Beyond that, often to explore new territory, you have to believe something is out there in the first place.

And although the method of proof is different, the scientist choosing to accept the results of his experiments believes in them in the same way another person might accept natural events to be the will of God.

Also, in the modern world and the "softer sciences", where there are lots of theories lying around and even contradictory research results, there remains a vast area of knowledge within the reach of these leaps of faith.

Perhaps there are areas of knowledge that will never fall under a working and proven theory. Indeed, this seems almost likely. Yet, is it impossible for individuals to gain enough information to believe something factual to be true, without gaining enough information to drag this new knowledge into the realm of western science?

While I recognize that you may not accept the veracity of TCM, I'll use it as an example (actually concentrating more on meridians). How has the information of this field been originally created? I've read stories that the paths of meridians have been revealed to people meditating and it has went from there. Sounds strange, certainly. It was also interesting to note that this knowledge seems by implication widespread since the finding of the "ice man" from the Alps. Significant is also the following: the whole theory of TCM has eluded western scientists (lack of truth or lack of evidence, who knows), the recent study of the paths of radioactive isotopes in the human body seemed to conform perfectly to the meridian system. So, there seems to be something there.

Former castleva

09-03-2003, 09:36 AM

"And although the method of proof is different, the scientist choosing to accept the results of his experiments believes in them in the same way another person might accept natural events to be the will of God."

Choosing to accept? Whether chosen or not,the results talk for themselves.I find your analogy disturbing.An idea that there even is a God behind any natural event is not a scientific one (-non-falsifiable).

"Perhaps there are areas of knowledge that will never fall under a working and proven theory. Indeed, this seems almost likely. Yet, is it impossible for individuals to gain enough information to believe something factual to be true, without gaining enough information to drag this new knowledge into the realm of western science?"

The problem with a lot of "belief medicine" is the lack of a theoretical foundation,thus the name.

"While I recognize that you may not accept the veracity of TCM, I'll use it as an example (actually concentrating more on meridians). How has the information of this field been originally created? I've read stories that the paths of meridians have been revealed to people meditating and it has went from there. Sounds strange, certainly. It was also interesting to note that this knowledge seems by implication widespread since the finding of the "ice man" from the Alps. Significant is also the following: the whole theory of TCM has eluded western scientists (lack of truth or lack of evidence, who knows), the recent study of the paths of radioactive isotopes in the human body seemed to conform perfectly to the meridian system. So, there seems to be something there."

I have roughly enough of reason to think that,for long,a lot has been "made up" (you may check out numerous sites that I have offered).One has to understand that such concepts predate the most rudimentary understanding of physiology or anatomy.
As far as the ice man (Ötzi) goes,it appears that certain points may have been marked,cannot say (the man also used coal for medicine).I think you need to be careful when it comes to saying how much this/it has interested anyone (without giving the references) but I agree that there has been some study.

From this article;
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1102/acu.html (to be read?)
"The concepts of chi, meridians, and acupoints do not correspond to any anatomic entity or known physiologic process. Because chi is not reasonably definable in nonmystical terms, determining whether acupuncture affects it is impossible. In only one biomedical study¬a French study characterized by the injection of a radioactive tracer at an acupuncture point¬did researchers conclude that meridians existed; a follow-up study revealed that the tracer had drained as it traveled ordinary blood vessels. As for acupuncture points, different charts depict different numbers and different locations, and devices marketed as means of locating acupoints have turned out unreliable."

For balance,see this thread;
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23439

vikinggoddess

09-03-2003, 01:54 PM

This thread was,originally,about emotions,and I?m offering my insight.I
did also ask about TCM?s approach to this,and whether it holds water.I
received no direct answer/evidence for it?s favour.

Hey there still waiting for a critique, if you are so inclined, on my paper on "5 elements, emotion and music". This is one approach based on TCM theory, specifically making use of the 5 element control cycle to regulate emotion. You can judge based on your intuition and emotional experiences if this theory has any potential usefulness.

http://chinesetherapeutics.org/elementmusic.html

Former castleva

09-03-2003, 02:09 PM

Thank you for your link.

"You can judge based on your intuition and emotional experiences if this theory has any potential usefulness."

I particularly liked the way you put it.
I must note that I notice a load of advice that I consider unfounded.However,as can be grasped from your post,how music affects one is up to invidual.

Daredevil

09-03-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Former castleva
Choosing to accept? Whether chosen or not,the results talk for themselves.I find your analogy disturbing.An idea that there even is a God behind any natural event is not a scientific one (-non-falsifiable).
I really don't see how the results can speak for themselves. It is always a human being that does the interpretation. All of (for example) Newton's formulas mean very little unless they're interpreted and understood.

If there is no-one to interpret them, this doesn't automatically invalidate the truth inherent in them, but the truth is not apparent in anyway. Except that the rock falls towards the ground.

If the movements of God are invisible to us, that is we cannot interpret them, this doesn't invalidate the possible truth of the matter. The truth just isn't apparent in anyway. Except that the rock falls towards the ground.

How do the results speak for themselves?

There remain lots of systems out there, out of our grasp with our current knowledge. Also, as I implied earlier, there can certainly exist two systems which explain the same phenomena and both remain true.

Originally posted by Former castleva
The problem with a lot of "belief medicine" is the lack of a theoretical foundation,thus the name.
What constitutes a theoretical foundation that you would accept? TCM does have its own theoretical foundation, even though it is not congruent with modern science.

Please refrain from explaining the matter with modern scientific terms (just as the Bible-toting religious person cannot validate God by quoting the Bible).

As for a lot of stuff being made up ... well, sure. That is likely true and for that I recommend -- just as you -- a healthy dose of skepticism for everyone.

Former castleva

09-03-2003, 05:00 PM

"Please refrain from explaining the matter with modern scientific terms (just as the Bible-toting religious person cannot validate God by quoting the Bible)."

Why should I? Does not it stand up to examination?
I still do not see anything that cannot be treated in such a manner.I´d,actually,consider the lack of interest in dealing with the subject in rational terms as inability to make a case for it (see below).

"What constitutes a theoretical foundation that you would accept? TCM does have its own theoretical foundation, even though it is not congruent with modern science."

Obviously.I know of no reason to resort to ancient&out-dated if I am to choose.I can empathasize with historical workers and their best bets at explanation but I refuse to accept those explanations as justified these days (leading to great danger of ad hoc hypothesis).

"If the movements of God are invisible to us, that is we cannot interpret them, this doesn't invalidate the possible truth of the matter. "

I can only hope that you are presenting this as an analogy.
Again,your basic conclusion is right (pink unicorns might just be out after me).Once again,what is invisible to us?

"There remain lots of systems out there, out of our grasp with our current knowledge. Also, as I implied earlier, there can certainly exist two systems which explain the same phenomena and both remain true. "

You might want to elaborate.What about two systems?
Talking about the subject we´re dealing with,what is there that cannot be explained with "our current knowledge"? I know of very little.

Daredevil

09-03-2003, 05:24 PM

Staying up late, I see. You're not the only one ...

Originally posted by Former castleva
Why should I? Does not it stand up to examination?
Examination by what methods?The scientific method? if so, we're staying in the system and court a circular argument. If I don't accept the validity of the scientific method, there's no point to utilizing it in your argumentation.

Originally posted by Former castleva
I know of no reason to resort to ancient&out-dated if I am to choose.I can empathasize with historical workers and their best bets at explanation but I refuse to accept those explanations as justified these days (leading to great danger of ad hoc hypothesis).
Ten thousand years from now "modern" science will be ancient&out-dated. It is a matter of perspective.

Well, actually, it probably won't be out-dated per se as it will no doubt in part form a foundation in the then current scientific paradigm.

However, in the same way the theoretical basis for TCM isn't outdated. For TCM doctors and practisioners it forms the foundation for their practise.

There is a theory behind TCM. Sure, it does not make sense within the western science context, but it is not within it, so it's pretty obvious. They're two different systems (until such time their differences are bridged -- that's a huge maybe).

The "effects and results" that come from its practise make sense within it's own context. The same goes for western science. To a man who believes in science it makes perfect sense that a rock falls due to gravity. To the hypothetical man who believes it falls due to God's, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Former castleva
Once again,what is invisible to us?

...

Talking about the subject we´re dealing with,what is there that cannot be explained with "our current knowledge"? I know of very little.
I have no idea and that is my point.

Former castleva

09-03-2003, 07:14 PM

"Staying up late, I see. You're not the only one ..."

This is rather rare!

"Examination by what methods?The scientific method? if so, we're staying in the system and court a circular argument. If I don't accept the validity of the scientific method, there's no point to utilizing it in your argumentation."

The scientific method,surely.It´s fairly objective.I know of no better one´s.

"However, in the same way the theoretical basis for TCM isn't outdated. For TCM doctors and practisioners it forms the foundation for their practise."

If it dates from the times when demons were "apparent" causes of illness&and nobody had heard of microbes i.e (still embracing related ideas) I think it is outdated,whether one uses it or not.

"There is a theory behind TCM. Sure, it does not make sense within the western science context, but it is not within it, so it's pretty obvious. They're two different systems (until such time their differences are bridged -- that's a huge maybe)."

"Western" science evolves (in fact,"western science" does not exist.It is universal.The opposite context is known as "pseudoscience") I have been pushing this point through for long enough,which context does TCM "theory" make sense in?
I´ll be restating the point/my question that I made much earlier;
Remember these?
;
""Traditional Chinese medicine considers that the emotions are governed by individual organs. "
"In China there is less 'mental disease' as we know it in the West, because the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or spleen,"
"Each organ is given a particular emotion; for instance, the liver is said to be the organ affected by anger. " "

Dear friend,which context does this make sense in?
Let´s assume that it makes sense in TCM context,can you draw any correlates between it and science/common sense? I would expect you to be able to,if it´s valid.As simple as that,as it was from the start.

"The "effects and results" that come from its practise make sense within it's own context. The same goes for western science. To a man who believes in science it makes perfect sense that a rock falls due to gravity. To the hypothetical man who believes it falls due to God's, it doesn't. "

Around here,I can but agree that the possibility of the rock not falling is very small,whether one believes it to fall because of God(s) or gravity.
However,what we are dealing with around here,cannot be compared to your rock analogy in a fair manner.

I bet you remember these;
"""Traditional Chinese medicine considers that the emotions are governed by individual organs. "
"In China there is less 'mental disease' as we know it in the West, because the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or spleen,"
"Each organ is given a particular emotion; for instance, the liver is said to be the organ affected by anger. " ""

In your rock analogy,the rock will fall,not caring whether you believe it to be due to gravity or God.
But here it reads,for example,that "...the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or spleen".From falling rocks,we have moved to medicine.No matter how hard one believes,I consider it unlikely that the cause for neurosis (and thus it´s treatment) will be found from "the liver or spleen" (But as you state,we are locked in our ignorance.God may be watching us,and SAME DIAGNOSES may have had DIFFERENT ORIGINS&PATHOPHYSIOLOGY in ANCIENT CHINA).
At this point I think,things are about to make a make a difference (which can be IMHO,even unfortunate). :)

"I have no idea and that is my point."

I see.

vikinggoddess

09-03-2003, 08:37 PM

"Traditional Chinese medicine considers that the emotions are governed
by individual organs. "
"In China there is less 'mental disease' as we know it in the West,
because the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or
spleen,"
"Each organ is given a particular emotion; for instance, the liver is
said to be the organ affected by anger. " "

Dear friend,which context does this make sense in?
Let?s assume that it makes sense in TCM context,can you draw any
correlates between it and science/common sense? I would expect you to be
able to,if it?s valid.As simple as that,as it was from the start.

Natural Selector,

You may be interested in checking out psychoneuroimmunologist Paul Pearsall, Ph.D.'s book "The Heart's Code," in which he explain's theory and science behind energy cardiology and cellular memory. His book is illustrated by amazing cases of pychological transformation by patients after heart-transplants.

"The heart has its reasons, which reason does not know." ~Blaise Pascal

Former castleva

09-04-2003, 09:25 AM

"Natural Selector,

You may be interested in checking out psychoneuroimmunologist Paul Pearsall, Ph.D.'s book "The Heart's Code," in which he explain's theory and science behind energy cardiology and cellular memory. His book is illustrated by amazing cases of pychological transformation by patients after heart-transplants.

"The heart has its reasons, which reason does not know." ~Blaise Pascal"

I´ve heard of such cases.Patient´s nature supposedly changing after getting a new heart.I have read of only one documented case though,from a reasonable science journal (under "paranormal"/"unexplained",as an anecdote).
I would,however,first associate a change or two with the surgery itself,which could have considerable influence on person´s psyche (the writer should be keen to make a case for such-,outside of these factors).
Anyways,thank you for your reply again (goes for DareDevil too).
This does not turn these absurdities (mentioned before) into science,that´d take much.

Former castleva

09-16-2003, 01:45 PM

"hmmm.

To take that deeper and to bring it back to the qi, also for anyone else interested (like it needs western science for conformation!?!)- and Being that you have noteable interest in nuero - science, you should be familiar with nano - technology and specifically remnant resonant energy (qi) which we all posess and has a direct correlation to both emotional and physical health and well being. if not please explore quorumglobal.com
If you need more, I have recently recieved further documentation on dhea, a precursor, or source ingredient, to virtually every hormone your body needs which when an increase of 10mg / lt occurs within blood levels, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (december 11, 1986), causes a 35% reduction in motality rates by acting as a buffer against stress related hormones such as cortisol. please see www.meditate.com.au

hope this helps
"

Late thanks,
and I´m ("re")posting on this;
http://worldwidescam.com/quorumdd.htm

vikinggoddess

09-17-2003, 11:30 AM

" If you need more, I have recently recieved further documentation on dhea, a precursor, or source ingredient, to virtually every hormone your body needs which when an increase of 10mg / lt occurs within blood levels, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (december 11, 1986), causes a 35% reduction in motality rates by acting as a buffer against stress related hormones such as cortisol. "

Hey this DHEA chemical fits nicely into the Chinese Medical paradigm. From the meditate.com.au research article: "L DHEA is also produced by your adrenal glands. It is a precursor, or source ingredient, to virtually every hormone your body needs. DHEA levels are a key determinant of physiological age and resistance to disease. When DHEA levels are low, you're more susceptible to ageing and disease; when they're high, the body is at its peak -- vibrant, healthy, and able to combat disease effectively. DHEA acts as a buffer against stress-related hormones (such as cortisol), which is why as you get older and make less DHEA you are more susceptible to stress and disease. "

DHEA sounds an awful lot like "Kidney" qi or essence, and we know that the adrenal glands are closely associated with the kidneys. From Chinese medical theory we know that Kidneys are associated with fear and are the source of prenatal qi. Decline in Kidney qi corresponds directly with ageing. Of course, also, the adrenal glands are activated in response to fearful situations.

I am familiar with different types of brain waves & biochemistry, etc., but I don't know what you mean by remnant resonant energy. Is that a term coined by Quorum Global Limited?

Are you saying that Qi is something different or something in addition to bioelectromagnetic energy.
http://www.yorkkarate.com/Articles/Q%20i&%20Bioelectromagetic%20Energy.pdf

Former castleva

09-17-2003, 12:19 PM

" Decline in Kidney qi corresponds directly with ageing. "

Such phrases are presented as gospel in certain circumstances,but when you say something like this,you are handing out the idea that "qi" has somehow gained a degree of falsifiability.

"From Chinese medical theory we know that Kidneys are associated with fear "

Or that a bamboo stick can deflect "bad chi" (been told.See feng shui) for example."Associated" (with);emphasis on association (i.e. cultural).
Example of association uniting with "medical" practice;
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993376

"I am familiar with different types of brain waves & biochemistry, etc., but I don't know what you mean by remnant resonant energy. Is that a term coined by Quorum Global Limited?

Are you saying that Qi is something different or something in addition to bioelectromagnetic energy."

Havind searched,I find that "remnant resonant energy"&"bioelectromagnetic energy" are associated with pseudoscience.
Here,quackery&energies coming together,for an example;
http://www.painrelief.org.uk/how_do.html
Be aware,though,sometimes pseudoscience/quackery in question can be boosted with real scientific terminology.

vikinggoddess

09-17-2003, 06:26 PM

" Decline in Kidney qi corresponds directly with ageing. "

Such phrases are presented as gospel in certain circumstances,but when you say something like this,you are handing out the idea that "qi" has somehow gained a degree of falsifiability.

Incorrect, the point is that from the perspective of Chinese medicine qi is at a certain peak level at birth and declines with age over time, similar to DHEA which is produced by the adrenal glands.

"From Chinese medical theory we know that Kidneys are associated with fear "

Or that a bamboo stick can deflect "bad chi" (been told.See feng shui) for example." Associated" (with);emphasis on association (i.e. cultural).
Example of association uniting with "medical" practice;
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993376

Well, having never encountered your bamboo stick remedy in my years of Chinese medical study, this seems a bit irrelevent to the discussion. By association, as in "Kidney's are associated with fear," I am referring to the Chinese medical perspective on the connection between the Kidney's and their corresponding emotion of fear. Your article on on poaching and the abuse of animal resources, while interesting and worth discussing, is also off topic.

"I am familiar with different types of brain waves & biochemistry, etc., but I don't know what you mean by remnant resonant energy. Is that a term coined by Quorum Global Limited?

Are you saying that Qi is something different or something in addition to bioelectromagnetic energy."

Havind searched,I find that "remnant resonant energy"&"bioelectromagnetic energy" are associated with pseudoscience.

Well you did bring up the remnant resonant energy.

Bioelectromagnetic energy is not pseudoscience. You actually already referred us to scientific info. at www.meditate.com.au where they discuss EEG monitoring of electrical patterns produced by the brain. These electrical frequencies are measured in Hertz, and are a part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Therefore, being generated by a living organism the can be reasonably referred to as bioelectromagnetic energy. http://cbp-1.lbl.gov/cycle1p04b1.htm

Here,quackery&energies coming together,for an example;
http://www.painrelief.org.uk/how_do.html
Be aware,though,sometimes pseudoscience/quackery in question can be boosted with real scientific terminology.

http://www.bonsaikitten.com/

Former castleva

09-18-2003, 08:16 AM

vikinggoddess

09-18-2003, 11:56 AM

"Incorrect, the point is that from the perspective of Chinese medicine qi is at a certain peak level at birth and declines with age over time, similar to DHEA which is produced by the adrenal glands."

Yes,that is their perspective.Now does it extend anywhere beyond that? And you have not exactly shown that it is falsifiable by now,unlike the stuff of endocrinology that you link it to.

What exactly are you fishing for?

"Well you did bring up the remnant resonant energy. "

No.You mentioned it before.

Not

"Bioelectromagnetic energy is not pseudoscience. You actually already referred us to scientific info. at www.meditate.com.au where they discuss EEG monitoring of electrical patterns produced by the brain. These electrical frequencies are measured in Hertz, and are a part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Therefore, being generated by a living organism the can be reasonably referred to as bioelectromagnetic energy. http://cbp- 1.lbl.gov/cycle1p04b1.htm"

What I´m saying is that spreading such terms ("sugar") does not justify the purposes that they are linked to,in order to sound believable,not to mention falsifiable.

There is no spreading of terms here. I'm using words (not butter) that can be defined and used within sentences to explain theories, etc. Now would be a good time to come clean if you have another definition of falsifiable. \Fal"si*fi`a*ble\, a. [Cf. OF. falsifiable.] Capable of being falsified, counterfeited, or corrupted. -- Johnson.

What are you looking for experiments or potential experiments to test Chinese medical theory? For example, in a double blind study of patients taking herbs classified as Kidney Qi tonics do DHEA blood levels rise? Do patients subjective feelings of fear also change?

"http://www.bonsaikitten.com/"

Relevancy? Fortunately they are not for real.

The point is we all know the internet is full of various and assorted bull****, and you don't need to point this out.

"Your article on on poaching and the abuse of animal resources, while interesting and worth discussing, is also off topic."

It relates to Chinese medicine and how far associations go.

So you concede that Chinese medical theory & associations have real consequences on the human and animal life, as well as the world around us, though these associations may not always be quantifiable or (falsifiable? {just going with the flow on that one}).

Thank you.

Former castleva

09-18-2003, 01:06 PM

"What exactly are you fishing for? "

Simply put;
-DHEA levels lower as we age (OK.)
-"Kidney qi" levels lower as we age (How come? To detect this,we would need to be able to detect&measure it).

"Not"

Yes,yes!
See page 2 of this thread.You said;
"I am familiar with different types of brain waves & biochemistry, etc., but I don't know what you mean by remnant resonant energy. Is that a term coined by Quorum Global Limited?"

"There is no spreading of terms here. I'm using words (not butter) that can be defined and used within sentences to explain theories, etc. Now would be a good time to come clean if you have another definition of falsifiable. \Fal"si*fi`a*ble\, a. [Cf. OF. falsifiable.] Capable of being falsified, counterfeited, or corrupted. -- Johnson."

What I said above probably sheds light on my thinking.
I will provide you with information on non-falsifiable;
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/explan/untest.htm

"What are you looking for experiments or potential experiments to test Chinese medical theory? For example, in a double blind study of patients taking herbs classified as Kidney Qi tonics do DHEA blood levels rise? Do patients subjective feelings of fear also change? "

I don´t mind seeing such.

"The point is we all know the internet is full of various and assorted bull****, and you don't need to point this out."

I get it.I actively attack it.

"So you concede that Chinese medical theory & associations have real consequences on the human and animal life, as well as the world around us, though these associations may not always be quantifiable or (falsifiable? {just going with the flow on that one})."

These associations may or may not be falsifiable,but they can have real consequences,definitely.
Importantly,they can be wrong&still have consequences.

vikinggoddess

09-18-2003, 02:45 PM

Simply put;
-DHEA levels lower as we age (OK.)
-"Kidney qi" levels lower as we age (How come? To detect this,we would need to be able to detect&measure it).

Well it would be most interesting to try to correlate DHEA levels with Kidney Qi. So if that was the objective, DHEA levels could be measured in patients with and without Kidney Qi deficiency. Kidney qi levels could be measured on a relative scale indirectly by correlating the cardinal signs and symptoms Kidney qi deficiency as defined by Chinese medicine. A point scale would be assigned to these cardinal signs taking into account time frame, medical history, etc., and would include for example, hair loss, chronic low back pain, subjective feeling of fearfulness, quality of eyesight, etc., etc. If there was a correlation between Kidney qi levels and DHEA levels, then Kidney qi tonics could be given to these patients. DHEA levels could be tested to determine if they increase after intake of Kidney qi tonics.

Sure this is all rather correlative as relating to the concept of Kidney qi, but who really cares? Only those who stand to benefit financially from the status quo. Chinese medicine and biomedicine are both essentially pragmatic. This is really all any patient cares about anyway, if the treatment works for them. Once MD's notice that a phamaceutical that is approved for one use starts having benefcial side effects in separate area, no MD's do any experiments to see why it is useful for a separate problem. They just start using it for the other problem. How many biomedical remedies or surgical maneuvors have been used over the years without understanding the action and consequences (to the grave detriment of many lives)? Researchers can and do test the pharmacological actions of Chinese Herbs and Formulations, as well as the benefits and physiological basis of acupuncture. The Chinese medical theory which allows practitioners to effectively deploy these treatments or herbs really needs no scientific justification if it works. This is because foundation and paradigm of Chinese medicine predates the scientific method, and is rather based in a substantial way on case histories passed down over generations upon generations. Chinese medicine can exist with biomedicine just as light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.

"Well you did bring up the remnant resonant energy. "

No.You mentioned it before.

Not

Yes,yes!
See page 2 of this thread.You said;
"I am familiar with different types of brain waves & biochemistry, etc., but I don't know what you mean by remnant resonant energy. Is that a term coined by Quorum Global Limited?"

**Hello!?** And prior to that you posted:
To take that deeper and to bring it back to the qi, also for anyone else
interested (like it needs western science for conformation!?!)- and
Being that you have noteable interest in nuero - science, you should be
familiar with nano - technology and specifically remnant resonant energy
(qi)

Former castleva

09-18-2003, 03:31 PM

"**Hello!?** And prior to that you posted:
To take that deeper and to bring it back to the qi, also for anyone else
interested (like it needs western science for conformation!?!)- and
Being that you have noteable interest in nuero - science, you should be
familiar with nano - technology and specifically remnant resonant energy
(qi)"

Hello! :D That was not me.

"Well it would be most interesting to try to correlate DHEA levels with Kidney Qi. So if that was the objective, DHEA levels could be measured in patients with and without Kidney Qi deficiency. Kidney qi levels could be measured on a relative scale indirectly by correlating the cardinal signs and symptoms Kidney qi deficiency as defined by Chinese medicine. A point scale would be assigned to these cardinal signs taking into account time frame, medical history, etc., and would include for example, hair loss, chronic low back pain, subjective feeling of fearfulness, quality of eyesight, etc., etc. If there was a correlation between Kidney qi levels and DHEA levels, then Kidney qi tonics could be given to these patients. DHEA levels could be tested to determine if they increase after intake of Kidney qi tonics."

Let me see here,are the symptoms of "hair loss,chronic low back pain,subjective feeling of fearfulness,quality of eyesight" considered to be related to what they call "kidney qi deficiency"?
Again,it seems as if we are encountering the same problem.To determine "kidney qi deficiency",you would need to be able to measure qi (assume for a while,that it exists)."Measurement" based on pulse diagnosis has no physiological relevance that I know of (scientific proof).Like hair analysis for example,no proof.
Consider me confident,but correlations between the "real world"&TCM appear small in this light.
What about the symptoms then? Point a finger if I´m wrong but hair loss can be associated with nutritional deficiency/diet,thyroid disorder,genetic factors,and other hormonal factors.Just like hair does not grow grey in old age because of "weakening kidneys",it does not leave you because of them (no knowledge of endocrinology during the hot days of TCM).Correlations between emotional states and internal organs was a driving force in this discussion.Alleged links between "kidneys-fear" is what I might call "biblical biology" (there seem to be correlations between it,the Bible and knowledge of the time,and TCM) Heart used to be the center of the mind and so on.Again,you just need to show that kidney issues have nothing to do with fear.Eyesight seems to be another unrelated thing too.Lower back pain seems to me,the only legitimate symptom to associate with kidneys (by nephrolites etc.).However,even in such a case,it needs to be shown carefully that the pain would be due to them and not because of numerous other reasons.

"How many biomedical remedies or surgical maneuvors have been used over the years without understanding the action and consequences (to the grave detriment of many lives)? "

I do not know.How many?

vikinggoddess

09-18-2003, 05:21 PM

Let me see here,are the symptoms of "hair loss, chronic low back pain,subjective feeling of fearfulness,quality of eyesight" considered to be related to what they call "kidney qi deficiency"?

yes, also knee and ankle pain

Again,it seems as if we are encountering the same problem.To determine "kidney qi deficiency",you would need to be able to measure qi (assume for a while,that it exists)."Measurement" based on pulse diagnosis has no physiological relevance that I know of (scientific proof).Like hair analysis for example,no proof.

The probability in encountering all the signs comprising the standard Chinese medical diagnosis of Kidney Qi deficiency is surely a low percentage when compared to the population at large, and a point scale based on the diagnosis would therefore be useful in a Saturday afternoon experiment comparing DPEA levels among Kidney Qi deficient and Non-kidney Qi deficient individuals.

What about the symptoms then? Point a finger if I´m wrong but hair loss can be associated with nutritional deficiency/diet,thyroid disorder,genetic factors,and other hormonal factors.

Ya, genetic diseases are typically categorized in Chinese medicine as being due to weak Kidney Qi, or inherited Kidney qi from the parents. Regarding nutritional deficiency, this is also related to Kidney qi deficiency. This is because in order to survive in this world you need Qi from food, but when you don't get it, in order to survive, the body draws on it's one-way-bank account of Kidney qi. That is why is it a bad idea to work long hours with out food, just surviving on cigarettes or drugs.
This behaviour depletes Kidney qi. That is why, from the perspective of Chinese medicine, the crack and herion addicts look like hell due to depletion of their Kidney qi.

Just like hair does not grow grey in old age because of "weakening kidneys",it does not leave you because of them (no knowledge of endocrinology during the hot days of TCM).

we are not talking about kidneys, but rather "Kidneys." in other words, the Chinese concept of the energetic Kidney does not directly correspond in everyway to the physiological kidney. And anyway, we have a Kidney qi tonic to reverse premature greying.

Correlations between emotional states and internal organs was a driving force in this discussion.Alleged links between "kidneys- fear" is what I might call "biblical biology" (there seem to be correlations between it,the Bible and knowledge of the time,and TCM)

or what others might call cross-cultural observation-based insight.

Heart used to be the center of the mind and so on. Again,you just need to show that kidney issues have nothing to do with fear.

My point is that Kidney qi deficiency may present with fealings of irrational fear, and conversely an excess of fearful experiences may result in Kidney qi deficiency. For example, a very common presentation for a victim of child abuse is chronic insomnia and nightmares. This is a case of trauma leading to an energetic disconnection between the Kidneys and Heart.

Eyesight seems to be another unrelated thing too. Lower back pain seems to me,the only legitimate symptom to associate with kidneys (by nephrolites etc.).However,even in such a case,it needs to be shown carefully that the pain would be due to them and not because of numerous other reasons.

Bad eyesight from childhood points to a genetic weakness, AKA weak Kidney qi. Regarding the back pain, that is why I said that medical background would need to be taken into account. In this way low back pain due to traumatic injury, for example, could be ruled out.

In any case, with regard to all your exeptions to the Kidney qi deficiency cardinal signs, these are within the paradigm of Chinese medical theory and diagnosis of Kidney Qi deficiency. You can't remove Chinese medical theory from an experiment designed to test it.

"How many biomedical remedies or surgical maneuvors have been used over the years without understanding the action and consequences (to the grave detriment of many lives)? "

I do not know.How many?
Every lobotomy for starters. I will see if I can pull up some prescription-drug related death statistics for you out of my Phamarcology notebook.

bodhitree

09-19-2003, 06:31 AM

do either of you have Jesus in your life?

Thats what you all sound like, Trying to change what one another holds true. You missionaries.

Former castleva

09-19-2003, 08:46 AM

Bodhi,you have been listening to too much RAF.
This is just a normal discussion.Yours being,feel free to contribute!

"we are not talking about kidneys, but rather "Kidneys." in other words, the Chinese concept of the energetic Kidney does not directly correspond in everyway to the physiological kidney. And anyway, we have a Kidney qi tonic to reverse premature greying."

"Physiological kidney"? Does kidney qi tonic actually reverse premature greying for real? Would it target actual kidney or "TCM kidney" (sorry,could not resist that).You are shifting the level of falsifiability further from our grasp.

"or what others might call cross-cultural observation-based insight."

For it´s day,with minimal understanding of it all,I´ll let them have their old bone but it has nothing to do with reality as we know it.
We do know better now!

"Bad eyesight from childhood points to a genetic weakness, AKA weak Kidney qi. "

It goes on around here.Genetics="weak kidney qi".Again,we can point to testable and verified causes,or just cling to untestable explanations that can easily be placed in line with the former.
If it goes "genetics-weak kidney qi",what does TCM do?

"Every lobotomy for starters. I will see if I can pull up some prescription-drug related death statistics for you out of my Phamarcology notebook."

Lobotomy has been used for a reason,and the consequences are known.It cannot be considered treatment though IMHO.

"a very common presentation for a victim of child abuse is chronic insomnia and nightmares. This is a case of trauma leading to an energetic disconnection between the Kidneys and Heart."

This,and the rest of tcm related relations seem to be made-up.
I even have hard time commenting on them because,as previously,they are untestable or simply bear no relation to actual condition.
Dated,I conclude.
Too bad if this sounds unproductive but it´s a dead-end for now.I appreciate your serious input though.
My hands are tied.

vikinggoddess

10-06-2003, 03:09 PM

(back from honeymoon, apologies for the delay in my reply F.C.)

"we are not talking about kidneys, but rather "Kidneys." in other words, the Chinese concept of the energetic Kidney does not directly correspond in everyway to the physiological kidney. And anyway, we have a Kidney qi tonic to reverse premature greying."

"Physiological kidney"? Does kidney qi tonic actually reverse premature greying for real? Would it target actual kidney or "TCM kidney" (sorry,could not resist that).You are shifting the level of falsifiability further from our grasp.

"or what others might call cross-cultural observation-based insight."

For it´s day,with minimal understanding of it all,I´ll let them have their old bone but it has nothing to do with reality as we know it. We do know better now!

Modern quantum physics tells us that there is no singular reality. Particles are waves and waves are particles. Don't try to superimpose the outdated singular reality theory onto this discussion.

"a very common presentation for a victim of child abuse is chronic insomnia and nightmares. This is a case of trauma leading to an energetic disconnection between the Kidneys and Heart."

This,and the rest of tcm related relations seem to be made-up.
I even have hard time commenting on them because,as previously,they are untestable or simply bear no relation to actual condition.

TCM relations will continue to seem made-up to you unless you fully immerse yourself in the paradigm. Instead you are challenging everything that is brought forward and trying to fit it into your perspective, before you understand the fundementals of the theory. Chinese medicine doctors trained in China (OMD's) are trained both in Biomedicine and Chinese Medical theory. If they can differentiate and entertain and apply these two paradigms, then you should be able to as well. Otherwise what is the point for you to be the moderator of this forum?

Former castleva

10-06-2003, 05:00 PM

"(back from honeymoon, apologies for the delay in my reply F.C.)"

That´s OK.Honestly,I was not expecting a reply at all.
(Gongrats. btw).

"Modern quantum physics tells us that there is no singular reality. Particles are waves and waves are particles. Don't try to superimpose the outdated singular reality theory onto this discussion.
"

Nice twist (red herring?) but does not really answer my questions for example (which you were quoting yourself).

"TCM relations will continue to seem made-up to you unless you fully immerse yourself in the paradigm. Instead you are challenging everything that is brought forward and trying to fit it into your perspective, before you understand the fundementals of the theory. "

I´m trying very hard.But that TCM explanation you offered for this&that trauma in question,the theory is missing IMHO (at least in scientific sense).OK,you can go ahead and say that it is up to me to switch the paradigm but I have already expressed my lack of satisfaction with that.What is a theory that cannot be tested? I argue that you are asking me to accept a religion.As I said,for it´s time,this is all nice but when set in cement,we´re talking pseudoscience.To claim that water turns to wine,or that mind,trust- resides in the heart,are positive,scientific claims.
(You can replace "energetic disconnection between the Kidneys and Heart." for example,with nasty spirits).

"Otherwise what is the point for you to be the moderator of this forum?"

Well,I like to moderate&my stance is actually unrelated in those terms (deleting abusive material etc.).

vikinggoddess

10-06-2003, 08:16 PM

regarding your Q: "Physiological kidney"? Does kidney qi tonic actually reverse premature greying for real? Would it target actual kidney or "TCM kidney" (sorry,could not resist that).You are shifting the level of falsifiability further from our grasp.

I've heard from various sources that research on HeShouWu, a famous Kidney Qi tonic, does indeed stop/reverse premature greying. Problem is that for many Chinese medical studies I only find the translated abstracts or have abstracts personally translated from Chinese into English. I mentioned in another post, that I would like CAM of the NIH to put some funding into investigation and review of Chinese medical research studies performed in China. The average person simply does not have the ability to access the published Chinese studies. However, you can see the book "Chines Herbal Medicine Materia Medica, Revised Edition" by Bensky and Gamble p. 329 for research on other effects of HeShouWu, notably reducing blood lipids & cholesterol, regulating blood glucose leves, treatment of chronic malaria.

I´m trying very hard.But that TCM explanation you offered for this&that trauma in question,the theory is missing IMHO (at least in scientific sense).OK,you can go ahead and say that it is up to me to switch the paradigm but I have already expressed my lack of satisfaction with that.What is a theory that cannot be tested? I argue that you are asking me to accept a religion.As I said,for it´s time,this is all nice but when set in cement,we´re talking pseudoscience.To claim that water turns to wine,or that mind,trust- resides in the heart,are positive,scientific claims.
(You can replace "energetic disconnection between the Kidneys and Heart." for example,with nasty spirits).

Don't want to be rude, but TCM Heart-Kidney theory is not worth explaining for in detail for the purpose of this argument given your level of close-mindedness. (More of what you will flatly reject). This is unfortunate as this is TCM forum. What's theory that cannot be tested? I guess that is called experiential. Religious, no.. no higher power/God, no worshiip, no spiritual leader. Nice try though. Chinese medical theory leads to diagnosis, prescription and treatment. Outcomes can be tested. Pharmacological actions of herbs and herbal formulas can be tested. Your dissatisfaction with a theory you do not understand does not negate it's usefulness in helping treat and cure illness.

"Otherwise what is the point for you to be the moderator of this forum?"

Well,I like to moderate&my stance is actually unrelated in those terms (deleting abusive material etc.).

Considering you admit openly that TCM related relations seem to be made-up and TCM is not a valid theory, your presence as moderator in a TCM forum is more that a bit out of place. Have you even studied any of the basic introductory texts on Chinese medical theory, or are you just going by what you read in the forum?

Former castleva

10-07-2003, 02:10 PM

"I've heard from various sources that research on HeShouWu, a famous Kidney Qi tonic, does indeed stop/reverse premature greying. Problem is that for many Chinese medical studies I only find the translated abstracts or have abstracts personally translated from Chinese into English. I mentioned in another post, that I would like CAM of the NIH to put some funding into investigation and review of Chinese medical research studies performed in China. The average person simply does not have the ability to access the published Chinese studies. "

I think that would be,if not virtually,impossible.Too bad I cannot acces those studies.Your proof,being anecdotal.

"Considering you admit openly that TCM related relations seem to be made-up and TCM is not a valid theory, your presence as moderator in a TCM forum is more that a bit out of place. "

Obviously,it was felt that my presence is not out of place,considering my position.

"Pharmacological actions of herbs and herbal formulas can be tested. Your dissatisfaction with a theory you do not understand does not negate it's usefulness in helping treat and cure illness."

I cannot disagree when it comes to testing herbs.
Of course my dissatisfaction does not affect the outcome,but you´re <begging the question.>

"Have you even studied any of the basic introductory texts on Chinese medical theory, or are you just going by what you read in the forum?"

I have not studied the texts/books,neither am I just going by what I read in the forum.

"Don't want to be rude, but TCM Heart-Kidney theory is not worth explaining for in detail for the purpose of this argument given your level of close-mindedness. (More of what you will flatly reject). This is unfortunate as this is TCM forum. What's theory that cannot be tested? I guess that is called experiential. Religious, no.. no higher power/God, no worshiip, no spiritual leader. "

I hope I did not appear rude either.I have to give you props for your exceptional patience.
That´s a usual ad hominem argument ("close-mindedness").
Your last sentence is justified.Experiental theory? I´m afraid that it won´t cut the mustard if "experiental" goes "Relating to or derived from experience." which seems to be the definition.I cannot even track down a thing called experiental theory (unless TCM gets it´s own special categories again).
As for religion,I can see what you mean.What I´m saying is that you state that i.e. chronic insomnia is associated with "energetic disconnection" dealing with kidneys and heart.Right? Or that heart heavily influences...the mind,right? Your basic stuff where the thread left from.Well,it seems to that the mind has shifted from heart&other internal organs to brain,that´s how it is seen today.Yet you´re giving me the idea that it is not quite like that,right? Contrary to evidence.So if I state that it´s not true,I become close-minded (note;this is not directed against you any more than the next person).I call this dogma.Religions,their dogma´s don´t evolve over time,neither can they be questioned.Yet they are presented as if they were special.

vikinggoddess

10-08-2003, 06:35 PM

Too bad I cannot acces those studies.Your proof,being anecdotal.

Agreed on the access issue.

"Considering you admit openly that TCM related relations seem to be made-up and TCM is not a valid theory, your presence as moderator in a TCM forum is more that a bit out of place. "
Obviously,it was felt that my presence is not out of place,considering my position.

Well apparently this is some kind of an issue, since there are 500+ views to "ban F.C.," and what's the other one? Is FC human. I didn't really look closely though. For me it is enough that you are openly denounce Chinese medical theory with out having a clear conception of it in a forum for information exchange on Chinese medicine. Your misdirection, for example to macrobiotics, when someone asks about Chinese nutrition is also a huge disservice to new people who come into this forum with the misconception that you, as moderator, have a clue about Chinese medicine. It would be a real digrace to Kung Fu Mag. if some wise old Chinese Doc. got discouraged from sharing clinical knowledge by you giving him the 3rd degree.

I cannot disagree when it comes to testing herbs.
Of course my dissatisfaction does not affect the outcome,but you´re <begging the question.>

The positive outcomes are there in research and repeated case studies. if you want some cliniccal research citations check out: "Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines" by Jake Paul Fratkin.

I hope I did not appear rude either.I have to give you props for your exceptional patience.
That´s a usual ad hominem argument ("close-mindedness").

Well it's unusual to have an excuse to use make such a claim. However, it's rare to find a forum moderator claiming that the theory which provides the basis of the forum seems made up.

Chinese medical theory & paradigm is complex, intricate, and has many levels. With a true understanding and exerience of the medicine, one will not see the world in the same way. You will never have an understanding of Chinese medicine by picking apart details of higher-order theoretical concepts with out getting some clue about the very basic fundementals upon which they are based.

Why don't you do us all a favor and at least find a $2 copy ebay of "The Web That Has No Weaver" by Ted Kaptchuk, Chinese trained practitioner and Harvard researcher?

Former castleva

10-08-2003, 08:03 PM

"Well apparently this is some kind of an issue, since there are 500+ views to "ban F.C.," and what's the other one? Is FC human. I didn't really look closely though. For me it is enough that you are openly denounce Chinese medical theory with out having a clear conception of it in a forum for information exchange on Chinese medicine. Your misdirection, for example to macrobiotics, when someone asks about Chinese nutrition is also a huge disservice to new people who come into this forum with the misconception that you, as moderator, have a clue about Chinese medicine. It would be a real digrace to Kung Fu Mag. if some wise old Chinese Doc. got discouraged from sharing clinical knowledge by you giving him the 3rd degree."

What do you think about those threads? This does not really relate that much,to our original discussion but let´s have a go.
What about those threads? Are my thoughts an issue for you?
This is a public forum,and what you read is up to your wishes.Agreed? What misdirection? All I have offered are my honest answers.I actually tried to help with the macrobiotics case for an example.It is up to one to ask from oneself "Is this reliable? Is this for real?" That,is what my posting is all about btw.We´re all here to discuss the same thing,there´s still no need to agree about everything..Yes,I moderate and in no way is that meant to indicate that I am an authority,which I am not! And I have made no such claims.As I have stated before,if you have some (possibly unfounded) problem with my presence,it´s useless to attack me.