Dog Style Kung Fu, BJJ and TKD guys, et all:Kicking from the ground! [Archive]

apoweyn

08-05-2003, 01:00 PM

In taekwondo, I've seen and practiced a couple of kicks from the ground. The really popular one seems to be the sidekick from the ground. Personally, the pitfall I see there is that it wouldn't take much for someone to take your back. I suppose that's always a danger with a kick that requires a lot of hip commitment like that. But to my mind, on your feet, you'd have a few more options. Or a few more opportunities to get yourself out of it. But on the ground, if the other guy gets my back, it's pretty close to done with.

I've seen BJJ types (MP, notably) do a sort of stop kick from the ground. But it doesn't really seem to be intended for damage. Just to stop the other guy advancing while you get back on your feet. So you kick out and then stand up. Alternately, as a stop kick, the length of the foot can be used to initiate contact so that you can entangle the standing opponent's legs, etc. Essentially, start grappling again.

But that's through the eyes of the uninitiated. So salt liberally.

Stuart B.

ShaolinTiger00

08-05-2003, 01:03 PM

lmao @ "kicking while falling"

You guys never cease to amuse me with your stupidity! Keep up the great work!

fa_jing

08-05-2003, 01:08 PM

http://sherdog.com/fightfinder/matchvids.cfm?matchid=3326

We practiced a four-directional kicking drill on the ground against the airshield. It's quite taxing actually.

ST00: specifically while falling deliberately (no contact/control by the opponent) as a response to pressure and rolling backward, you can shoot your leg up with reasonable effectiveness.

chen zhen

08-05-2003, 01:11 PM

ST00 may be Ralek after all..;)

ShaolinTiger00

08-05-2003, 01:14 PM

no contact/control by the opponent)

ok. that makes a WORLD of difference.

it's still silly as hell.

truewrestler

08-05-2003, 01:24 PM

fa_jing, do you mean a drop kick :p

just kidding... sounds cool, like kicking when jumping guard

truewrestler

08-05-2003, 01:25 PM

ShaolinTiger00, I PMed you earlier

Chang Style Novice

08-05-2003, 01:37 PM

I'm stuck on why you'd fall to the ground in the first place if there's no contact with or control by the opponent. Whaaaaa?

One guy did show me a circular ass-over-teakettle heel kick that could be used in conjuction with a forward breakfall. I'd rather never get to a point where I had to use it, but I can see it's utility.

red5angel

08-05-2003, 01:42 PM

What the hell is dog style kungfu?!

Oso

08-05-2003, 01:51 PM

limited and surprise, as with any technique, is a big help.

most of the ground kicking I've learned is from the monkey aspect of the PM I've learned. However, I understand the DiTang (dog boxing) may have crept in or influenced it at some point.

It is certainly possible to pass a ground kicker's leg just as it is possible to pass/block any attack.

It's just another option and relative skill still comes into play as always.

CSN, ime/imo, if you have lost balance for some reason (push, throw, sweep) sometimes it may be better to keep going to the ground and be stable when you get there vs. being unstable as you try and regain your base. I refer to this concept as beating the opponent around the circle. If he is trying to get me to the ground and I take control of the momentum and go there intentionally then I am in a better position to deal with him if not readily reverse him or escape.

red5angel

08-05-2003, 01:58 PM

Isn't Gouquan, dog boxing?

Shaolin-Do

08-05-2003, 02:04 PM

Good point Oso.....

Cant say Ive ever seen any sort of Dog Boxing.

red5angel

08-05-2003, 02:06 PM

Dog Boxing has come up on this forum a few times, I would like to find out some more info on it if possible, anyone got anything?

neigung

08-05-2003, 02:11 PM

I thought Dog Boxing was almost all ground techniques?

Ralphie

08-05-2003, 02:14 PM

I practice some fujian dog fighting, and it's tough. The break falls are somewhat different than Judo. You don't slap, but use the larger surface coverage of your body in order break your fall. This can take a lot out of your body at first, but is great conditioning as well. The idea is that you won't always be in a position to slap in order to disperse the energy of the fall if you are to do a comparison. Also, there is a focus on sweeps and escapes from odd positions as well. Some of the things practiced are also similar to things like the "flying armbar". Although it is quite different than bjj, you do sometimes see some similar techniques.

For R5, dog fighting kf is kind of a ground fighting style of cma. I think it is called dog fighting because you're trying to throw/sweep someone to the ground and then beat them. So, being on the ground and in a flury might look like a dog fighting.

Shaolin-Do

08-05-2003, 02:19 PM

http://members.aol.com/irondogfst/dogfist/index.html

Dunno wheather or not this guy is legit...

Shaolin-Do

08-05-2003, 02:27 PM

Stand on a chair or other high object with one leg bearing the weight. Hang a heavy load on the hooked foot of the other leg and raise the leg till the thigh is level, then lower it.

Sounds like an alright workout.
:)

Chang Style Novice

08-05-2003, 02:30 PM

"CSN, ime/imo, if you have lost balance for some reason (push, throw, sweep) sometimes it may be better to keep going to the ground and be stable when you get there vs. being unstable as you try and regain your base. I refer to this concept as beating the opponent around the circle. If he is trying to get me to the ground and I take control of the momentum and go there intentionally then I am in a better position to deal with him if not readily reverse him or escape."

Sure, fine, but then you've had contact and lost control. It sounded to me like the fajing was talking about kicking as you're throwing yourself to the ground for some reason I can't concieve of right now. What you're describing sounds more like what I mentioned in the second part of my post - controlling a fall that's already underway and maybe backing off your opponent or even scoring on him while its happening.

red5angel

08-05-2003, 02:45 PM

hey Ralphie, you have PM.

Oso

08-05-2003, 02:57 PM

csn, uh, I think(?) we're in agreement. If I'm in contact and am either in a position of advantage or at least nuetral, I won't lose that contact just to fling myself to the ground.

r5a, maybe, I coud certainly have my chinese words mixed up.

red5angel

08-05-2003, 03:03 PM

Oso I am surprised with your interest in Ursine that you don't practice Sambo :)

Oso

08-05-2003, 03:10 PM

check out my sig...Judge Penn has the correct in that it's all about opportunity and making the best of where you are and what's available to you.

but, now that you mention it...I have trained in Sambo just a little. A good buddy of mine learned some while he was in the Marines and he showed me some stuff.

Ha, I should have run against CZ for ORA mod.

rogue

08-05-2003, 03:12 PM

that was somba he taught you you red ninny. Didn't you wonder why he had you wearing ladies underwear? :p

Oso

08-05-2003, 03:14 PM

no, I wear ladies underwear regularly.

want me to tell you what I was wearing when we had lunch?

:D ;)

red5angel

08-05-2003, 03:25 PM

Rogue, have you ever tried sparring in a pair of silk panties? It's divine....although avoid the thong.

rogue

08-05-2003, 03:33 PM

Oso, I was talking to the other red ninny, and no I don't want to know what you were wearing.:D OK maybe a little.

red5angel, aka red ninny, you are a very sick person, and that's your good attribute.:p

we have a bundle of kicks from the ground, work great but I can see someone with a grappling background trying for the back. Like stand up kicking much depends upon timeing and what the other guy is doing.

Golden Arms

08-05-2003, 03:38 PM

I have heard about Dog Boxing several times..but info is sparse..Last thing I read on it was in one old book of Robert Smiths. A kung fu sifu is talking about it, and says that they (dog boxers) fight by closing distance and then falling and scissoring or pulling the opponent with them, and repeatedly kicking them and sweeping them from the ground. He recommended fighting them by throwing things at them from a distance :) heheh..

Oso

08-05-2003, 03:55 PM

I am apparetly confused, Di Tang looks to be 'ground' boxing.

Mr Punch

08-05-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Oso
CSN, ime/imo, if you have lost balance for some reason (push, throw, sweep) sometimes it may be better to keep going to the ground and be stable when you get there vs. being unstable as you try and regain your base. I refer to this concept as beating the opponent around the circle. If he is trying to get me to the ground and I take control of the momentum and go there intentionally then I am in a better position to deal with him if not readily reverse him or escape. Oso has been pushed backwards by the correct, fallen backwards with it preemptively, and kicked it silly on the way.

ST100 has mercifully caught the quiet.

I've caught the silly bleedin expressions.

I've had my nose broken by somebody taking control of the speed of my takedown and kicking me with the momentum. Ever since then, every time I get taken down/thrown in aiki or in sparring, I'm looking to kick something with the force of my own body going down.

I was always taught a straight-up kicking motion with a backward ukemi, and a kind of raking heel kick with a forward ukemi, but I was taught them as a means to increase my own momentum to get back on my feet quicker. However, if you can't complete the ukemi because something (like someone's nose/shin/random body part) is in the way, using the momentum of the fall adds a lot of force to your kick with very little muscular effort.

Of course, I've also been in the position when somebody has shot and landed on top of me, smothering my whole body under him, when my kick turns into a knee, sometimes to good effect, sometimes to none. Situations vary.

Fajing was also correct
as a response to pressure and rolling backward

I've never done a discipline where I've regularly practised kicking from the ground itself but I have been shown some in WC (it was ok) and practised a fair bit in aiki (very useful - riot police instructor and the best butt-scuttler I've ever seen!). Should do some more.

Mr Punch

08-05-2003, 07:30 PM

Oh yeah, furthermore ST100, what the **** is a judo sacrifice throw if it isn't a kick to the gut on the way over? Seen that work a fair few times...
;)

Oso

08-05-2003, 08:44 PM

I've caught the silly bleedin expressions.

:D

Oh yeah, furthermore ST100, what the **** is a judo sacrifice throw if it isn't a kick to the gut on the way over? Seen that work a fair few times...

that would be a tomo nage, right? that isn't the only sacrafice throw, though. I'm trying to get a different one down now. to late to try and describe it.

oh, in kung fu we call a tome nage a 'dragon throw' because the foot placement is the same as our dragon stomping kick.

Mr Punch

08-06-2003, 07:04 AM

I can't remember which one it is... maybe tomo nage... I know there are a few sacrifice throws...

Anyway I only said I've seen it work... I always sucked at it myself!

ShaolinTiger00

08-06-2003, 07:13 AM

Mat,

I'm "quiet" because Fa-jing qualified the statement and it made sense.

ST00: specifically while falling deliberately (no contact/control by the opponent) as a response to pressure and rolling backward, you can shoot your leg up with reasonable effectiveness.

And your comparison of a judo sacrifice throw to kicking while falling is ridiculous.

A sutemiwaza is the epitome of a controlled throw. with constant contact through out the entire throw, immediately follwed up by groundfighting.

Your comment "tomoenage -a kick to the gut" tells me you know next to nothing about the throw or the proper setup.

Mr Punch

08-06-2003, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Mat,

I'm "quiet" because Fa-jing qualified the statement and it made sense.Anything's a bonus! j/k :p

And your comparison of a judo sacrifice throw to kicking while falling is ridiculous.
... tells me you know next to nothing about the throw or the proper setup. Try 'nothing'! See above post!

Kristoffer

08-06-2003, 07:42 AM

Hi all!

Oso, your previous postings about refeering Dog KungFu as DiTan is interesting. I have heard of this 'Dog Kung Fu' before but I always thought it was a grappling art similar to BJJ. But when you say the word DiTan, a little light turns on over my head.

In my style, there is an (as my sifu says:) ) old and unusual style incoporated. We don't train this as much as the 'core' but it is there and I have training in it. The name of this is Ti Tan . It is basically ONLY ground techniques, but not in a grappling way. It looks like a monkey style (except without all the 'sillyness' :) ). We spend hours on different sweeps from aqward positions, kicks etc all done while squating very low. I have only heard of this style being refered as Ti tan, never Dog fighting so I don't know if it's the same thing. But I thought u might find this interesting.

fa_jing

08-06-2003, 08:11 AM

To clarify, I was thinking of a situation that I've been in during sparring being overwhelmed with punches from in close, and losing my balance because of the pressure. Rather than try to fight back ineffectively while rocked back on my heels, inviting a throw, sweep or knockout, I would try to cut my losses and drop and roll back. It's a risky, desperation maneuver because if he has a low kick on the way I could get hurt, not to mention sacrificing my mobility and options for counterattack by going to the ground. Not while falling, but rather after hitting the ground and while rolling back so that my shoulders and upper back are forming a base on the ground I would automatically shoot up a kick to his groin, legs, or lower abdomen. This has a low chance of doing damage, but it may distract him long enough for me to create some space and give myself a better chance of getting away.

Similarly, if I get thrown but make it to the ground intact, and additionally my opponent was not able to control me or the throw (throw was not clean/correct, he lost his balance and control of his momentum while throwing me but did not fall himself) and we have space between us, I was able to squirm to the position where I'm on my back with my legs facing him, and he is advancing towards me but still standing, I will shoot out some thrusting heel stomp kicks like any good BJJ player would do. See the clip, although most people don't leave their face wide open like Tatarov. Like I mentioned before, we practiced some emergency kicks to the other 3 directions as well, but I've never been in a position to actually attempt these during sparring. The other 3 directions are over the head, and to each side.

I'm aware that throwing a kick from the ground opens me up to having the kick caught and an ankle locked/broken, but my options from the ground are very limited, especially since I never formally studied ground grappling.

fa_jing

08-06-2003, 08:18 AM

P.S. - my sifu didn't like it when I did the intentional drop thing. He wanted me to use my footwork more effectively to get out using lateral movement.

No_Know

08-06-2003, 08:41 AM

fa_jing, when dropping, Kick. One leg to the face/chin/throat area. The other bent, to guard the groin on the way down.Or both legs to mid section. When you land, legs should still be up and at at least thigh/knee level. One at center line to guard the groin.
With your legs out and between you and the one person if they are not moving you might be able to backroll and stand from the roll.

Use your leg as your arm. If grabbed roll the leg and wrap the foot about the wrist or forearm. if they keep the grab they get controlled. This might be a strength battle but it's an optionn other than allowing the lock or break if leg grabbed when feet between you and person.

Oso

08-06-2003, 08:43 AM

kristoffer, interesting. sounds similar. our 'monkey' stuff is exactly as you described, none of the silliness. Lots of rolling drills and off balance kicking and odd angle attacks.

STOO, in kung fu we practiced the 'tomonage' as a throw that can be done if you get rushed as you are throwing a front kick and your leg is still chambered. We would then plant the foot in the fold of the hip, grab the arms or head, and roll down and back for the throw. We also always trained it with the followup mount. The jujitsu guys I'm working with now throw it with the shin against the hip/lower torso. Is this the difference you are referring to?

SevenStar

08-06-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Oso

:D

that would be a tomo nage, right? that isn't the only sacrafice throw, though. I'm trying to get a different one down now. to late to try and describe it.

oh, in kung fu we call a tome nage a 'dragon throw' because the foot placement is the same as our dragon stomping kick.

some of my better techniques are sacrifice throws- tani otoshi, sumi gaeshi and ura nage.

Oso

08-06-2003, 11:37 AM

I just got shown a new one a couple of weeks ago that I like.

Can't remember the japanese for it but here's a try at a description:

from the standard judo grip move the right hand to grip his right lapel from the inside and as high up as you can

then you kind of step/jump with both feet drilling into the ground on the other side (his right side/your left) as you twist and look left as hard as possible.

the choke is almost immediately there.

pretty simple and I've pulled it of once in randori so far. I like's it.

SevenStar

08-07-2003, 08:43 AM

I know what you're talking about - never knew the japanese name for it though. The choke is referred to as a clock choke.

JusticeZero

08-12-2003, 01:04 PM

Oooohhh.. I don't check the forum for a few days and people get into a discussion of my favorite range of combat. About a third to half of the stuff I do is in this area, it opens up all sorts of options for attack and the attacks can get more solid and effective. Too bad I can't actually be understood.. *sulk*Come hang out in Oregon sometime.

Mr Punch

08-12-2003, 03:31 PM

That'd be Oregon, er USA right... is that even on the same planet...?!:D

Go oooon, share something with us Justice, pref something to do with a grapple including a kick from the ground... but anything will do.

JusticeZero

08-12-2003, 04:07 PM

Hmm..
Retreating Martelo Enganhosa: Step back and collapse back onto the back leg. Slide the front leg to open up on the inside. When you land sitting on the heel, fall sideways onto the lead leg side with the elbow into the kidney, reach over with the opposite hand, and roll off the elbow as the pivot for a shin roundhouse, parking the kick next to the second hand. (From which point one can execute a heel thrust kick or stand up in elbow or head thrust)
Which might be mildly risky if the kick misses, but it's not the only technique one can do either. It just happens to be the one I was doing today is all, so it springs to mind. We were working on a very hard to explain sequence that included it, though in this case it was done as a knee to the back of someone doing a particular leg takedown.

GunnedDownAtrocity

08-13-2003, 12:48 AM

i barely skimmed this so it may have already been mentioned.

hook one foot behind their ankle while kicking their knee with the other. not the most practical thing in the entire world, but after reading some of the other stuff i thought i might as well mention it.

there's lots of ground kicking in harimu tiger, but i believe that was actually out of juijitsu. and when i say lots of ground kicking in harimu i mean lots of side and back kicks from the ground. there might be more but that's all i have seen so far.

ngokfei

11-21-2004, 06:53 PM

check this site for info and drawings of dog boxing

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/gouquan.html

MoreMisfortune

11-21-2004, 07:02 PM

i havent read all thread
in fact i havent read shyt
but ill just comment that the bjj guys do kick from the ground
call it "pedalada"
but that is, they dont really pratice that much
its a kick for when theres a dude standing in front of you and you are on the ground, when he gets close, you kick
but that is, i dont know if today its still teached like on every bjj place
but its something the gracies used to to, yeah

ShaolinTiger00

11-21-2004, 09:54 PM

but that is, they dont really pratice that much

sport bjj does not practice it much, but in vale tudo and mma we practice it quite often for many different reasons.

attacking an opponent trying to appraoach from a distance while we're down.

attacking an opponent trying to back up.

to create space to stand up

to attack a guy in our guard (heel "spikes")

etc..