What is it with UK Lau Gar

[pat1]

I have been studying Lau Gar for 5 years. Why is it that Lau gar students get such grief from other Kung Fu styles.

[Pakmei]

Pat,

It could be due to the impression that the Lau Gar schools in the UK come across as being very commercial and not particularly Traditional.

From what I have seen of Lau Gar, most people who practise Lau Gar have this unknown tendancy to to fight like a kick boxer.
Personally the way I see things is, if your learning a Traditional style of Martial arts then you should learn to the techniques of that style and be able to apply them to any situation.

Instead you learn the forms but you guys are taught to fight like kick boxers... to my mind, if your going to fight / spar like a kick boxer then you'd be better off going to learn at a kick boxing school.

I'm sure there are others reasons why the Lau Gar people get quite a lot of flack especially from the more traditional styles of Chinese Martial Arts. It's not just the Lau Gar people tho, it's also the people of practise Wu Shu Kwan as well.

[pat1]

Pakmei, thanks for your reply. Its a pity that alot of other people don't get to see the traditional side of Lau Gar. It seems that the kickboxing side is easy bait for putting down Lau Gar.

When you see people like John Russell or Andy Nation teach and demostrate you will see a completely different view on it all.

I hope that the views which many express on these forums about Lau gar are from people just seeing the kickboxing side, and if one day they are lucky enough to see the teachers mentioned above or for that the many many other traditional guys, then maybe their views will be changed.

[CHAZ]

You would have to be very lucky to find a good traditional Lau Gar teacher, most teachers I have come across only teach the traditional side for the grading syllabus, and the rest of the time its kickboxing(semi-contact). If you can learn from John Russell and other Gaurdians of the style then you are very very lucky(They are Good!!!).

I wasted over 12 years learning Lau Gar from teachers who only had a limited knowledge of the traditional side, now that I am learning Choi Lee Fut I am now more than happy

[Ben Gash]

Chaz, who are you doing CLF with?

[johngreenhow]

Pat1 - I agree with you.

I studied Lau gar on and off for around 11 years in the UK in various schools around the country and although it's all Lau Gar there *is* a lot of difference in where the emphasis is put.

Training in a Guardian's class is great, you get a good fundamental grounding in kung fu.

I spent some time training with Jason Crabtree in Cardiff and what I learnt in his class has stood me in very good stead here in Shaolin.

In my humble opinion, Lau Gar produces some very well rounded martial artists, and gives students the opportunity to move towards what they feel suits them - be it kickboxing or a more traditional style.

I trained in a few other styles, including Wing Chun and Shaolin, but Lau Gar always holds the middle ground for me - it's a great balance between the various aspects of martial arts and an effective style. This is why I'll always go back to it.

[Lin Chong]

Just to say before i go on writing that this is not an attack on UK Lau gar or its practitioners. Its just an opinion. It is true that Lau Gar style in UK used to be one of the most popular kung fu styles there. And there are some good and tough Lau Gar people out there.

However as for the Uk Lau Gar being a traditional style of kung fu, from what i have hear and seen over the years doesnt have a good reputation amongst most traditional gung fu stylist due to number of reasons.

I suppose on of the reasons is the authenticity of the forms practiced in UK Lau Gar. One it seems that UK Lau Gar seems to borrow too much from other southern styles such as Ba Mei, Hung Gar, Wing Chun etc... Uk Lau gar doesnt seem to have its own distinctive flavour like other styes of Kung Fu. Rather it seems more like a mixed souhern style. Some of the people who has stopped practicing lau gar after a long time complain that over the years since Lau Gar has been in the UK scene there has been way too many changes to the style it self.

Another argument is that Uk Lau gar dont seem to exit outside Uk . The Lau Gar practiced in some parts of China is very different to the UK one. As for Hong Kong, Lau gar style doesnt seem to exist there either, especially anything similar to UK Lau Gar. Considering Jerrmy Yau and his family was from Hong Kong, surely there must be other Lau Gar stylist there.

Also people like John Russel etc have been exposed to and trained in other styles of kung fu which in turn have helped them in their own style. So to say that they got all their skills from Lau Gar is not exactly right.

Once again i am not putting down the UK Lau gar, but putting forward just a little bit of what i know of UK Lau Gar.

[phoenix-eye]

"borrow too much from other Southern Styles"

Isn't that what many, if not most, kung fu styles do?

Forms and techniques are aggregated from various sources over a long period of time. Some lineages of Hung Gar have Wu Dip Jeung "Butterfly Palm". This originated from Northern styles. Does this mean that Hung Gar is not traditional?

This process, may or may not, have resulted in the UK Lau Gar system and may, or may not have, happened in the relatively recent past (i.e around 30 yrs ago). But to simply say that the system is not traditional because it "borrows" techniques from other styles is wrong.

I am not in a position to state that Uk Lau Gar is a traditional style as taught in China/Hong Kong or anywhere else. However, from a personal viewpoint - I don't participate in the semi-contact/kickboxing stuff (getting too old anyway!) but the training I have received through practice of the Lau Gar forms has given me a strong foundation from which to progress on into learning Hung Gar.

I would be the first to admit that there may be elements lacking in the Uk Lau Gar system - but that should not blind you to its strengths. They are there if you are prepared to look.

[pat1]

So to say that they got all their skills from Lau Gar is not exactly right.
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I never mentioned that in my thread, but of course to intergrate other techniques into a style is how Kung Fu has evolved over the centuries.
With all arts not just the martial, would you put down picassos cubism because it wasn't 'traditional'.
If Kung Fu had not adapted, changed, soaked up on influences and stayed the same we would all be doing a one exercise form and that would be all.

But of course it all depends on how people translate tradition.

[CHAZ]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Chaz, who are you doing CLF with?

I train in Newcastle upon Tyne under Sifu (Edmund)Ng Ho Tak:D

[Serpent]

Any of you guys know what Neville Wray is up to these days? What about Kevin Brewerton?

[pat1]

I believe that Neville Wray runs some super league tournament and is still active in Lau Gar. He was made a Guardian a few years ago.

[johngreenhow]

Yep,

Last time I was in a tournament in the UK it was run by Neville Wray. It was supposed to be all about a new set of spectator sport orientated rules. This was a quite a while ago though.

I'd like to pick up on a point made in the thread - Lau Gar borrowing from other styles. Could well be, but this is something that I like about it.

I've now studied a little Shaolin stuff and some Wing Chun too. I find that rather than sticking religously to one style I enjoy learning about everything that's out there. After all, I'm in no hurry and I've got all the time in the world to take the bits I like and drop the bits I don't.

If Lau Gar is borrows from other styles then I can't criticise it, in fact, it's probably helped me in the way I pick up stuff now, if not having set me on this path in the first place.

You're right about the forms changing though. It's probably the most Chinese thing about the style ;) Anyone who's spent time in China must be familiar with the whole situation when something changes totally over night and absolutely, bare faced denial is the approach taken to anyone who questions it...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by pat1
I believe that Neville Wray runs some super league tournament and is still active in Lau Gar. He was made a Guardian a few years ago.

That's good to hear. So he still teaches somewhere then?

HE always used to teach in Woking and Maidenhead. Maidenhead was his main class really. Is he still there?

[pat1]

Serpent

Neville Wray still teaches in Maidenhead, not to sure about Woking.

He has a link to his email through the official Lau Gar site.

[pat1]

I sometimes read on these forums the name Stan Brown being one of the original students taken up through the ranks. Does he still teach/train and has he anything to do with the BKFA or like many of the original group have gone on to do their own thing or stopped.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Pakmei
Pat,

It could be due to the impression that the Lau Gar schools in the UK come across as being very commercial and not particularly Traditional.

From what I have seen of Lau Gar, most people who practise Lau Gar have this unknown tendancy to to fight like a kick boxer.
Personally the way I see things is, if your learning a Traditional style of Martial arts then you should learn to the techniques of that style and be able to apply them to any situation.

Instead you learn the forms but you guys are taught to fight like kick boxers... to my mind, if your going to fight / spar like a kick boxer then you'd be better off going to learn at a kick boxing school.

I'm sure there are others reasons why the Lau Gar people get quite a lot of flack especially from the more traditional styles of Chinese Martial Arts. It's not just the Lau Gar people tho, it's also the people of practise Wu Shu Kwan as well.

Wu Shu Kwan? Five Ancestors? They cop a lot of flack from traditionalists? Why?

[Pakmei]

Joe,

Not quite sure why the Ng Chor Kuen (Wu Chu Chuan - 5 Ancestors) get some grief! It's definitely a traditional style with it's roots firmly grounded from Shaolin.

I know the 5 Ancestors school here in the UK, have a tendency to teach the forms very quickly to the students, so that may be one of the reasons for the grief.

On the other hand tho, Wu Shu Kwan as taught by K.C. Chang, etc. That is definitely not a traditional style of chinese martial arts.

I have actually witnessed their class in action, and personally wasn't impressed with their teaching methods, syllabus... actually nothing about the whole school set up impressed me.

What did come across as very evident was how commercial it was and costly towards the students... (still fools and their money spring to mind!)

[Subzero]

Originally posted by Pakmei
Pat,

It could be due to the impression that the Lau Gar schools in the UK come across as being very commercial and not particularly Traditional.

From what I have seen of Lau Gar, most people who practise Lau Gar have this unknown tendancy to to fight like a kick boxer.
Personally the way I see things is, if your learning a Traditional style of Martial arts then you should learn to the techniques of that style and be able to apply them to any situation.

Instead you learn the forms but you guys are taught to fight like kick boxers... to my mind, if your going to fight / spar like a kick boxer then you'd be better off going to learn at a kick boxing school.

I'm sure there are others reasons why the Lau Gar people get quite a lot of flack especially from the more traditional styles of Chinese Martial Arts. It's not just the Lau Gar people tho, it's also the people of practise Wu Shu Kwan as well.


My school is anything but comercial.We strugle.Alot.I think that the problem for this is that we are too traditional.

We still teach semi contact sparring, which is completley optional, but not as intensivly as we use to.It's hard to do semi contact and fight traditionaly.It wasn't designed for it.For a start most of our moves (I.E. Grabs, gouges etc) aren't alollowed in that type of sparring.So yes we fight like kick boxers in that area (Or better;) ).

But we do more continuos sparring than every other type.

But we hardly (My club neway ) Put any empthisis on semi contact.We teach applications for forms and encourage students to think of applications b4 we sugest possible ones.Syllubus work is the most important are in my calss and as far as i'm aware every other Scotland Lau Gar club is like that.


But i do know of a number of more comercial clubs in Britain and indeed Scotalnd (Not SLG)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Pakmei
Joe,

Not quite sure why the Ng Chor Kuen (Wu Chu Chuan - 5 Ancestors) get some grief! It's definitely a traditional style with it's roots firmly grounded from Shaolin.

I know the 5 Ancestors school here in the UK, have a tendency to teach the forms very quickly to the students, so that may be one of the reasons for the grief.

On the other hand tho, Wu Shu Kwan as taught by K.C. Chang, etc. That is definitely not a traditional style of chinese martial arts.

I have actually witnessed their class in action, and personally wasn't impressed with their teaching methods, syllabus... actually nothing about the whole school set up impressed me.

What did come across as very evident was how commercial it was and costly towards the students... (still fools and their money spring to mind!)

Thanks for that. I wasn't sure if Wu Shu Kwan was yet another way of saying 5 Ancestors (I am guessing it isn't). I know the sifu of the London Wu Chu Chuan school, Sifu Kim Han, and he is an outstanding teacher. His teaching philosophy does appear to be to teach forms very quickly, but whenever I have trained with his students I have been impressed.

[Ben Gash]

Wu Shu Kwan in this context means martial arts school (Wushuguan) . Contrary to the popular line, Rhee Ki Ha was not the first korean teaching TKD in England. There'd been a guy here for several years. Annoyed at being supplanted, and disillusioned with the emerging sport TKD he explored the more combatitive aspects of TKD, and trained in Northern Shaolin. It's basically Kenpo, but with a TKD base instead of karate. They do do traditional chinese forms, but they're pretty basic. To be fair, they do tend to describe themselves as Chinese kickboxing.