how many forms do you think there are in wah lum?

[Shaolin Dude]

and is yao allowed to teach the forms he learned from wah lum? because I know he got kicked out of wah lum because he wanted to do modern wushu. please answer me

[Shaolin Dude]

is there a way I could get a copy of wah lum's student handbook?

[18elders]

LKS taught 11 forms- wah lum forms 1-6 that are taught now are not part of them, these were added by chan wan ching in hong kong.

Can yao li teach the wah lum sets? Sure he can, he just can't advertise them as he is a wahlum teacher.
I have seen some of his forms, a bit different than what is taught now and also a form that nobody in present wah lum knows. It was called Saint hands i think.

PM me, i think i have a few copies of the hand book or may be able to get you one

[Ren Blade]

What were the original 11 forms that Lee Kwan Shan taught?

[woliveri]

how many forms do you think there are in wah lum?

Answer: A hell of a lot more than are being taught now. I was told by a very reliable source MC has over 400 forms in his arsenal. A small percent of that now being taught.

[18elders]

Don't know the 11 origianal forms- good luck finding out!'

Woliveri-wow the count just keeps going up, we asked mc when the count was 300 and he laughed and said no he didn't know 300 forms. get a new source

[Lohan Fury]

I would guess there are at least 110 to 120. I know a person who has somewhere around 50 or so forms who asked TT once and he said that's not even half...

Then again he was talking to a few people and I think he might have been referring to all of them. I'd all together they have something like 64 different forms (most of them all of them know, some each person "specialized in")

But what do I know? Not a lot....

[yu shan]

I always felt like I was learning only "part" of a form. Alot of times, a WL form ends really weird. Like it should keep going...ending with a techn. that normally does not end a form. Oh well, WL forms always kicked my a*s! Just wish there would have been more to them. (Not gonna beat a dead horse)

Why the need for so many hand forms? Weapons are another story...right?

[woliveri]

18Elders, well that number was from the 80s so it looks like it's going down, not up. So take away the number 400 and leave the statement "a sh*tload". Source saw them on video (8mm). k? Anyway, like you said, good luck finding out. Maybe he just know's 2 and that 2 sprouted into 10,000 ha ha. You know he passing more than what's currently seen now to Mimi. I don't really give a flying f*rt. Jeepin and Qi Gong are my lively hood hobbies now. Maybe later some Baji would be nice.

take it light!!!

c'ya

[yu shan]

This is total yin and yang! Where do you jeep? Did some in Arizona (Sedona & Kole`s Ranch) As for given a fly`n. I`m on to bigger and better myself.

Isn`t k? doing Eagle now? Had some really good times with him...a real talker!

Weekend`s coming up! Go for it.

[18elders]

the question should be how many has he mastered and understood all the techniques and applications??
To me it is useless just to know the moves and not understand the form.
He (MC) told my kung fu brother that he didn't know alot of forms when he came to the US.

[Shaolinlueb]

is there a big mantis to go along with little mantis?

[yu shan]

Shaolinlueb

Check out the above thread, I believe it will shed some light on your question.

I think WL is truly missing the real treasures hidden in a form!

[Ren Blade]

I have heard that Big Mantis is one of the original Wah Lum forms that Lee Kwan Shan taught Chan Poi.

[yu shan]

From what I understand, MC only studied a few years with LKS. And, he was a very young child (six-ish). More than likely, a Si-Hing or Chan Wanching taught him his stuff.

Your really going to get 18-Elders going now! :)

[Joe Mantis]

If you are talking about Chan Pui's WL then yeah I'd say over a hundred forms for sure.

But if you are talking Hong Kong or other places... I have no clue.
18 Elders said LKS taught 10 - 11 forms.

My questions are:
1. What are those forms?
2. Are they being taught in CP's WL.

I'd like to ask MC myself but don't think he would be receptive to be asking questions.
Hua Lin??? What can you do?

If anyone has been to the WL headquarters Hong Kong ( I think)
can you contribute to this discussion?

Yu Shan: true true about knowing forms and not apps.

Interestingly enough: Many styles only have about 10 forms.

[18elders]

went to the WL headquarters in hong kong, it was just chan wan ching's wife's house with some pictures on the wall. MC said nobody there trains WL.
I would think if people did still train it then when MC took all those group trips to hong kong and china then the students would have trained with some wah lum people but i don't think anyone ever did.
we went to his village and did a demo and saw the locals do a demo, they did fan cha and it was the first form they learned. It was a little different.

[Joe Mantis]

Mantis Cave lists many people that studied under LKS.
Can't anyone contact these people and get some additional info?

Hey 18 isn't Fan Cha an Eagle Claw form?

[Jack Squat]

Joe Mantis-

Good Call!

Any KFOers in Hong Kong? Anyone going soon or know any PMers who live there?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Joe Mantis
I still believe that any of the original material passed on to MC is at the top. I'm sure he keeps it close. One clue is the fact that Big Mantis appears to be the WL version of Beng Bu. It's currently on 6th Level. Quite a ways up there if you're familiar with WL. He also told me WL has Luan Jie but it's different. Don't know what it's called or when you learn it (by the time I get to it I'll be too old to do it). Listed under Advanced Wah Lum Fist forms is Tong Long Juk Dung - Praying Mantis Exits Cave. Again, it might not look like other versions.

Also, the WL Headquarters moved back to the mainland. Not sure if WL exists in HK anymore. Been there 2 times and never saw any.

Shaolinlueb
"is there a big mantis to go along with little mantis?"
There is a Big Mantis to go with Little Mantis. There is also a Big Fan Cha to go with Little Fan Cha. What I haven't seen is a Big Open Gate to go with Little Open Gate.

[CeruleanRyuujin]

Anyone ever find out what the 11 forms were?

[yu shan]

I`m trying to get you the list.

[Chop Socki]

Joe Mantis
What I haven't seen is a Big Open Gate to go with Little Open Gate.

Big Open Gate... the mind reels! :p

[tattooedmonk]

I saw about ten years ago had forms ( available on video) in the ranges of 400+.
I do not know if these forms or videos are still available or are being taught . GM Chan Pui has a lot of material!!

I personally have over 150 forms in my arsenal from various sources , mostly all from SD( 100+).

[SoCo KungFu]

This is sort of steering into a slightly different direction. But it is sort of relevant.

In addition to which were the original forms, does anyone have any further info on MC's training? Mainly, where did the southern stuff come from? I originally thought he learned first a 5 families type system then later moved to mantis but it seems that was incorrect.

I know there is some southern stuff there. The leopard set...and 18 elbows and 36 hands have a number of combinations which are also found in Lau gar set and Gung gee (slightly modified but its easily identified).

Is there any info on Tan tui mantis prior LKS and wah lum?

[mickey]

Hi SoCo KungFu,

I am not a wah lum man, though I remember reading a martial arts magazine of of the UK that featured an article on Grandmaster Chan. He said the before Lee Kwan Shan came to their village, they did Mok Gar (I am working from memory here). This may explain the use of the heel in the front and side kicks. Mok Gar is known for its heart piercing kicks and tiger tail kicks-- all done with the heel.


mickey

[Yao Sing]

yu shan, sorry I missed your call. Can't hear the phone when I'm out on the bike. Post the list, you got it.


I saw about ten years ago had forms ( available on video) in the ranges of 400+.
I do not know if these forms or videos are still available or are being taught . GM Chan Pui has a lot of material!!

Don't know what you saw but it wasn't Wah Lum. There aren't hundreds of forms in WL. I don't know how many MC knows (or has quan pu for) but not everything he knows is in WL. I think that's where the mistake comes from, he knows sets from other styles.


Hi SoCo KungFu,

I am not a wah lum man, though I remember reading a martial arts magazine of of the UK that featured an article on Grandmaster Chan. He said the before Lee Kwan Shan came to their village, they did Mok Gar (I am working from memory here). This may explain the use of the heel in the front and side kicks. Mok Gar is known for its heart piercing kicks and tiger tail kicks-- all done with the heel.


mickey

Mok Gar is his family style and that's where the Leopard Form originates. LKS came from a Tan Tui family background before learning Mantis in the Wah Lum Temple.

[Yao Sing]

I know there is some southern stuff there. The leopard set...and 18 elbows and 36 hands have a number of combinations which are also found in Lau gar set and Gung gee (slightly modified but its easily identified).

Is there any info on Tan tui mantis prior LKS and wah lum?

As I said above, the Leopard Form came from Mok Gar. The first Spear set in the curriculum is from Lau Gar.

[Corwyn]

well, I hope that I am not breaking any rules here (so I won't post the names of forms just in case) but my handbook shows a total of 52 forms - hand and weapon - required to reach 6th level. In addition there are at least 13 "advanced" forms listed and I've seen and learned a few additional forms that are not on this list. So we're up to 70 +/- forms.

I am guessing that on top of that there are some strictly for the gifted or the chosen, and of course some forms that might only be passed to Mimi. So we're up to 100 +/-. but considering MC's history why would be surprising if he knows a few 100 forms?

C

[yu shan]

Beng Bu - aka - Big Mantis
Lan Jeet - Lan Jie
Baht Zhao - Ba Zhou
Tam Toy - Tan Tui
Lin Wahn Jurng - Lien Huan Zhang - (continuous palms)
Teet Bay Sow - Tieh Men Suan - Iron Door Bolt aka (Little Mantis)
Dai Fan Che - Da Fan Che
Yat Lo Lin Wahn Tam Toy - Yi Lu Lien Huan Tan Tui - (first route continuous tan tui)
" " " " " " " (second route " " " )
" " " " " " " (third route " " " )
Yau Ling Kuen
Yin Ji Chuen Lum

[EarthDragon]

And we wonder why other styles and arts look down and call kung fu practioners form collecters.

with numbers said in this post like 150 ,400+ 300 how can anyone take our art seriously?

The time it takes to master just one form and all it applications should be enough, but to learn that many moves with no understanding or application is like an egg with no yoke ................. all you have is an empty shell. No wonder why kung fu in this day and age are being laughed at form the UFC, MMA and the hard core fighters of today.

[Chop Socki]

And we wonder why other styles and arts look down and call kung fu practioners form collecters.

with numbers said in this post like 150 ,400+ 300 how can anyone take our art seriously?

The time it takes to master just one form and all it applications should be enough, but to learn that many moves with no understanding or application is like an egg with no yoke ................. all you have is an empty shell. No wonder why kung fu in this day and age are being laughed at form the UFC, MMA and the hard core fighters of today.

What a bizarre way to interpret a system's wealth of history and tradition as a reason to feel ashamed. I'll match your 'egg with no yoke' parable with one of my own: the art does not define the artist. If my student handbook was 47 volumes long and contained thousands of forms developed over hundreds of years, is it safe to make broad assumptions about the practitioners of my style based on that alone? Or could one instead infer that the breadth of material allows one to tailor their knowledge to the techniques that best suit their body style, interests and abilities? I believe I'd prefer the opportunities afforded by a rich system over all of the 'one size fits all' offerings. And if I should choose to take the wrong path and become a form collector instead of someone who seeks the deeper meaning hidden within a smaller number of forms, shame on me, but that's no fault of my system.

There are 2 different conversations going on here - the material that comprises the Wah Lum system and the number of forms that Master Chan knows. Certainly they're very different things.

Practice! Practice!

- CS

[EarthDragon]

agreed, I simply made a statment. If you have over 400 forms you cant possibly know any of them.

What good is having a quiver full of arrows if you cant draw the bow?

seems lie you wasted a lot of money on nothing

[Chop Socki]

I'm in complete agreement that an individual with 400 forms is, with very few exceptions, very likely to be a master of none. On the other hand, saying that a system shouldn't be taken seriously because it offers a wide range of 'stuff' that can be tailored to individual needs is a pretty big leap imho, and that's how I interpreted your statement 'how can anyone take our art seriously'. Apologies if I misunderstood your intent.

No harm, no foul.

- CS

[EarthDragon]

Oh I see , my intention was not to say anything about the system, just that I can see how MMA, UFC and other styles pick on kung fu when people come on the interent and say they have even 50 forms.

That is ridiculous in my opinon. we have only 10 and I am still learning them after 16 years. To learn is not to collect. and when you collect you did not learn.

Their is a guy who teahes in my city that claims to have 8 black belts. How could anyone take this guy seriously? this is the problem with MA today to many of these situations and not enough training..........

[mantid1]

Im not against someone having a lot of forms. If the person enjoys doing forms more than running everyday...so be it.

If a student from one system has 50 forms and another from another style only has a few from his own style.....but neither one has ever stepped into the ring more than one time to prove themselves...what does it matter?

Having 1 or 100 forms does not make a peson a good fighter. Even if a guy knows the random apps out of his 3 forms...who says they are good techniques or he can apply them?

Can somone give me an example of more than one or two people from seven star, eight step....etc who are fighting mma or ufc style fighting that has been a winner?

You can just list one if you like.

They are not laughing at the chinese martial arts because wah lum has 100 forms

They are laughing because they know if a traditionally trained chinese martial artists steps in the ring and fights the way 8 step or other traditional mantis styles fight that the mantis guy will get his ass kicked in a hurry.

Sorry to have to break it down for you all like that.

If someone does not agree I encourage you to get in the ring and make a good name for the mantis community.

Im not saying traditional arts are not good for self defense and the most important thing to stay healthy.....but they may not be the best method of fighting out there.

If you want to learn to fight.....you have to fight...and fight.....and fight.

[EarthDragon]

Im not against someone having a lot of forms. If the person enjoys doing forms more than running everyday...so be it.

I am not against it either, I just think its a waste of time to learn that many forms without true knowledge of the first one.

If a student from one system has 50 forms and another from another style only has a few from his own style.....but neither one has ever stepped into the ring more than one time to prove themselves...what does it matter?again a quiver full of arrows without learning how to draw the bow. whats the point?

Having 1 or 100 forms does not make a peson a good fighter. Even if a guy knows the random apps out of his 3 forms...who says they are good techniques or he can apply them?

then why go on to learn more? this is my point

Can somone give me an example of more than one or two people from seven star, eight step....etc who are fighting mma or ufc style fighting that has been a winner?

nope but the street is the other medium.


They are not laughing at the chinese martial arts because wah lum has 100 forms

They are laughing because they know if a traditionally trained chinese martial artists steps in the ring and fights the way 8 step or other traditional mantis styles fight that the mantis guy will get his ass kicked in a hurry.

but thier still laughing..... and then when they read so and so knows 350 forms

Sorry to have to break it down for you all like that.

no apolgies needed just conversation


Im not saying traditional arts are not good for self defense and the most important thing to stay healthy.....but they may not be the best method of fighting out there.

true however mantis is incrediably practical and I have used it many times in my years of fighting, bouncing and security. but if you cant use what you have already learned then why would one seek more?

If you want to learn to fight.....you have to fight...and fight.....and fight.

is this not the basis for martial arts?
want to look good and graceful in empty forms? try Wushu nothing worng with it and some people devote thier life to it but what are they looking to achive?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by mantid1 : Today at 08:14 PM.

[Chop Socki]

You know... after all these years of studying martial arts (over 20 and counting!), I still laugh when I hear or read someone express the belief that if you don't routinely beat people up in bars or back alleys, you haven't proven the validity of your style.

Years ago, I was that guy who was always looking for a reason to be teed off, and I saw the slightest accidental nudge or the look that lasted more than a second to be a challenge - one that, more often than not, I acted on. Then I discovered martial arts. The odd thing, looking back, is that even from the very beginning, the appeal wasn't to learn newer and better ways to beat people up - it was to channel my misplaced aggression into something more positive. The result? When I knew nothing, I fought constantly. As an experienced martial artist (who has proven himself in both the ring and the alley), I just don't fight anymore. Can I? Absolutely! But now, I'm not looking for a reason to let fly, and I realize that a bump is just a bump, a look is just a look, and that tough guy in my face in the alley just isn't enough of a challenge to merit a response. Like the car with an alarm, a confident martial arts says 'you'll have better luck elsewhere' without opening his mouth.

For my friend EarthDragon, another parable: it's been said that when you study martial arts dilligently for 1 year, you can defeat two men in combat; after 2 years, you can defeat three men. After 10 years... it isn't an issue, because you don't fight anymore.

Sorry mantid... I'm not being judgemental, just sharing my philosophy and the benefit of my experience. I hope you find something of value in this novel!

with respect,

- CS

[DocWho]

Chop Socki,

Well said my friend. Your point is make very clear on the road of a martial artist.

Here is an excerpt from - http://www.chinahand.com/shaolin/sl_history/slhistory.htm

SHAOLIN CHUAN
As a Martial Art
1. Form is a consecutive series of movements linked together to FORM a pattern designed to bring about some change within the practioner.
2. Introduces basic martial techniques (strikes, blocks, etc.).
3. Begins coordination training.
4. Utilizes the body's External Energy by using techniques rather than internal energy. This is the traditional teaching method prior to learning internal arts.
5. Instills an appreciation of martial arts as a life art rather than a destructive art, by causing an awareness of body strengths, weaknesses and limitations.
As a Health Exercise
1. Introduces the concept of balanced flowing movements.
2. Much of the training is dedicated to strengthening muscles and tendons. This is accomplished by extreme movements and abrupt changes in directions (advancing/retreating, sinking/rising, etc.). This training brings about improved agility, balance, flexibility, and will benefit one's overall health.
3. Institutes a daily program of exercise which is cardiovascular in nature.
As a Performance
1. When you practice you perform.
2. Performance is exercise for the Spirit and Mind.

:)

[DocWho]

With great sincerity, I would like this thread to continue discussing about the forms of Wah Lum Praying Mantis. In doing so, we can learning more about their lineage.


:)

[mantid1]

I think that the CMA is much more than just fighting. Face it...you can teach a student to fight in the first few months...if you cant your style is not so great.

Why would the old masters develop such indepth systems that incorporate Chinese culture..medicine if it were only about fighting?


I would feel sorry for the person who trains for a few hours a day several times a week because they may get into a fight. To me that is a paranoid person who needs to see their Chinese medicine man to get things balanced out.....or to make it easier get a script for prozac or other drug to take the demons out of our head. When we are not being chased by shadows we do not have to train for the fight as hard.

Not trying to be disrespectfull to anyone....I just think the CMA offers benefit the society as a whole in many different ways.....not just the 3% of the population that want to fight.

[SoCo KungFu]

As I said above, the Leopard Form came from Mok Gar. The first Spear set in the curriculum is from Lau Gar.

Yeah I knew the leopard set came from Mok family. That's interesting about the spear though. I haven't seen any other spear sets with the Lau name I'll admit. But I was to understand that southern spear tends to draw power from the lead hand as opposed to the rear hand which is more northern and what is found in this spear set. I just figured it was a different Lau than the one in the 5 southern families.

I'm more interested in the other techniques though.

So if MC's family trained in Mok Gar, did he continue to learn Mok Gar after meeting LKS? If he started from LKS at such a young age I would think he would have had to. I don't think there is any way for him to have gained enough experience in Mok to make additions and such at that young an age and in such little time. Did MC make a lot of the southern additions or was it that guy that taught MC after LKS passed?

Also what about the other techniques? Such as the kui sows; the elbow, low backfist, high backfist combos and such that are often in southern material (though with different stances); etc? Where did all that other stuff come in?

[EarthDragon]

chop
For my friend EarthDragon, another parable: it's been said that when you study martial arts dilligently for 1 year, you can defeat two men in combat; after 2 years, you can defeat three men. After 10 years... it isn't an issue, because you don't fight anymore.

LOL beat up 2 guys at the same time within 1 year of training????? thats why parables are not always the truth.

But whatever, OK point taken lets take fighting out of the equasion as I no longer fight myself and of course thier is much more to kung fu than fighting we all know that and that is not my point nor the reason i responded in the firtst place however it is the basis of the art.

all my point is if you are a martial arts practioner and you have more 10 times more information than you can apply you are learning unneccessary information even if you are simply collecting forms.

whatever floats your boat, but lets be real TCMA is about fighting whether you like to fight or have never fought in your life its still about MARTIAL warfare. again if you like to show lots of forms then pratice Wushu..... no one will laugh when you can demonstrate 280 emtpy forms with no application.

Doc
sorry to highjack your thread just thought that was funny and needed mentioned. I know nothing of Chan Pui other than crosssing hands with him on Goldenrod Rd many moons ago and he is a gentleman and a great guy.

[DocWho]

Earthdragon,

This is not my thread. I simply am interested in various branches of the mantis system. In your 8 Step studies, have you learned the section 1 to 6 forms which was the original creation of:

Chiang Hua Long (Master of Plum Flower Praying Mantis)
Wang Zhong Qing (Master of Bagua)
Chen De Shan (Master of Hsing-Yi and Tong-Bei)

From the information I gathered these forms were the heart of the 8 Step Praying Mantis system. I found these information from www.8-step.com.

:)

[woliveri]

After this thread started I've since moved to Shanghai and started Bagua Zhang. I used to love Wah lum for the nice forms they had.

I've since found the quality of this bagua is fantastic, the more I see the more it amazes me,

The Wah Lum of Bagua but better as my teacher points out every application and we drill and 'lock horns'.

He said he will teach me all he knows too so perhaps one day I'll be the MC of Bagua.. Ha ha ha...

[EarthDragon]

I watched Mimi do a breakfall form many years ago, how many of you WL guys are currently doing this, practicing this or mastered this kuen?
I was quite impressed with it

[CeruleanRyuujin]

For those who are curious.

The external empty hand forms from the 1983 Curriculum are:

Level #10
16 Hands
Little Open Gate
Wah Lum 1st form
Straight Form

Level #9
Seven Kicks
Second Form
18 Elbows
2 Men Forms
Little Mantis

Level #8
4th Form
36 Hands
Leopard
Lo Han

Level #7
3rd form
Buddha Palm
Fan Cha

Level #6
5th Form
6th Form
Big Mantis

Advanced Level
Drunken Form
Swallow
Plum flower
six corners
18 kicks
18 locking hands
tin fong fingers
so lo sow
luck low
Tong Long Juk Dung
Soft form

There are ofcourse a ton of weapons etc as well... but this I think is good enough for this threads purpose.

[yu shan]

My handbook (date unknown) lists a form in level #7A called "Tam Tui". Has anyone see it and is it a new addition. And is it a kicking form or something related to leg work? Just curious, I have not heard my friends speak of this form. Back in the 70`s I did get to see the "Swallow form" performed, very nice. Some of my comrades at the time learned "soft form", I missed out on that one... anyone know it? And did I hear at one time, MC`s camp say that "eighteen kicks form" will never be taught?

[CeruleanRyuujin]

Yu Shan,

What does the empty hand for list look like in your HB? Does it match the 83 one i posted above? Would you mind posting it if it is not the same or sending it to me in a PM?

[yu shan]

10B- 16 hands

10A- Little Open Gate, WL First Form

9B- Straight Form, Say Lok, Little Mantis

9A- Seven Kicks, Lo Han, Second Form

8B- Leopard Form, 2 man form, Little Fan Cha

8A- 18 Elbows, Fourth Form, Lok Low #1

7B- Lok Low #2, Third Form, 36 Hands

7A- Fan Cha, Buddha Palm, Tam Tui

6- Big Mantis, Fifth Form, Sixth Form

Cheers.

[phoenixdog]

Let me break it down for the MMA guy.The mantis that I know would be illegal in the UFC,IFL,MMA ring world,thats why it has the long standing street reputation that it does.

[Shaolin Dude]

My handbook (date unknown) lists a form in level #7A called "Tam Tui". Has anyone see it and is it a new addition. And is it a kicking form or something related to leg work? Just curious, I have not heard my friends speak of this form. Back in the 70`s I did get to see the "Swallow form" performed, very nice. Some of my comrades at the time learned "soft form", I missed out on that one... anyone know it? And did I hear at one time, MC`s camp say that "eighteen kicks form" will never be taught?

I've seen tam tui 2-3 times. If I remember correctly, it is mostly a hand form with some kicks.

Yao Li knows 18 kicks and I think I saw Bob Rosen did it one time.

[mawali]

I've seen tam tui 2-3 times. If I remember correctly, it is mostly a hand form with some kicks.

There are many versions of tantui. It is a basic form within Changquan -Northern Fist) (may also be called tantui) and Zhaquan and similar systems!
Aren't most forms hand forms, with soem kicks?

[Chop Socki]

I've seen the Wah Lum tam tui form several times - at least one of them - and while it's not quite as heavily balanced towards kicks as, say, seven kicks, the one I'm familiar with does have more leg work than hand techniques. I've also heard it described as the 'little mantis' equivalent of the Tam Tui system that was merged to form Wah Lum, as far as where it would fall in the system for educational purposes.

I've seen soft form referred to as 'cotton fist'; if they are in fact the same form, Master Chan has been teaching that (or some version of it) in seminars recently. Very nice stuff.

As far as student handbooks and curriculum, the biggest changes I've seen between the '83 version posted previously and what it looks like today are the inclusion of seminar material that has been taught over the years and added at appropriate points in the system. I don't think the 'core' stuff has changed much - you're not going to see 2nd form or 18 elbows go away, but things like S'il Fan Cha and Say Lok were added after they were introduced in seminars.

Practice!

- CS

[EarthDragon]

phoenixdog,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me break it down for the MMA guy.The mantis that I know would be illegal in the UFC,IFL,MMA ring world,thats why it has the long standing street reputation that it does.__________________

LOL your kidding right? let me guess your style is too deadly to be in the ring? you know killing techniques, Dim mak, or dismemberment jointlocks?
you cant possibly be serious so i will let that go.

PS my KF brother fought with mantis in the UFC 6& 7 winning both bouts and there is nothing illegal about any of mantis's techniques in the ring. please dont give me the its too deadly reply. not every application is illegal.... if it is dont use it.

[Jack Squat]

The WL tan tui form (at least the one I learned) is a very difficult but very short form which is more legwork than handwork. It's a great set to do at tourney's as long as you add something to it to make it longer. It ranks up there with Yao Ling Kern (actually named Soft Flexible Fist which is different from Soft Form) as the most difficult WL emptyhand sets to perform. Yao Ling Kern is probably the "breakfall form" that somebody said they saw Mimi do, as it contains a breakfall into a kip up. Both Tan Tui and Yao Ling Kern are great performance sets.

[phoenixdog]

In 2004,a fighter was killed here in the ring with an illegal forearm blow to the back of the neck. I knew this man and had trained with him so I am not kidding.

[ironfenix]

would the breakfall form be wah lum drunken form? There are a couple of breakfalls in that form if i remember correctly.

[EarthDragon]

Phoenixdog,
While I am sure that unfortunate accidents can happen. It was not a mantis technique that killed this man and saying mantis techniques are too deadly to use in that kind of venue is ridiculous.

A forearm blow can be in football, hockey TKD, Muai Thai or any contact sport.

are you saying because the guy practiced mantis that threw the forearm that its techniques are illegal? whats illegal about a forearm blow? lets be real here.

Ironpenix
I am not sure if the form is drunken but it had many rolls adn was done very gracefully. I was hoping one of the WL guys would know

[ironfenix]

earthdragon, how did you know? i never said anything, but thanks. about the form, was she flipping on her head and doing the front breakfall on her forearms?
if so - drunken form.

[Yao Sing]

Getting back to the topic of the thread there's one thing to keep in mind: MC is old school and after 8th Level what you learn is customized to what your strengths are so each student learns different.

The standard curriculum only goes so far then it varies by student skills. So there really is no set WL form list . It's open ended. Also, what you learn at the higher levels depends on circumstances. I learned some stuff that other didn't just because it worked out that way. Being in the right place at the right time.

I've missed out on some good stuff for the same reason. Actually, in the early days it was pretty much random. I know some guys that started off with 36 Hands since there was no curriculum laid out at the time.

I suspect with Mimi taking the lead there will be further refinements and structure. Wah Lum is still a work in progress. I happen to know the MC has taken possession of another complete system of Kug Fu that is very similar to Wah Lum. I suspect some of that will be integrated into WL in the future.

Forms are transient, they aren't written in stone to be preserved and worshipped. They are just a collection of moves compiled for different purposes such as drilling certain attributes or providing examples of usage.

It's the techniques themselves that are of importance and shoud be the focus of training. If you understand the principles, concepts and moves then designing foms should be just another tool to help achieve the desired results.

[18elders]

hey jack,
send me a pm

[Erasmus Mingatt]

I can't comment about this since I am an 8 step M practitioner...

Is WAH LUM the same style as 7 star? :confused:

If I remember correctly..7 star has between 117-123 forms ...

[CeruleanRyuujin]

I can't comment about this since I am an 8 step M practitioner...

Is WAH LUM the same style as 7 star? :confused:

If I remember correctly..7 star has between 117-123 forms ...

Nope, Wah Lum is a hybrid style of mantis unique from 7 Star.

[yu shan]

Are you allowed to expand on your comment about this other style MC is taking on?

I know what you mean about being in the right place at the right time. That is how I learned Little Buddha Palm, Big Mantis and some others. The chips were falling my way those days I guess, WL forms that is.

[Yao Sing]

Are you allowed to expand on your comment about this other style MC is taking on?

Am I allowed? I really don't think that applies. Sorry though if I came across as having inside knowledge or having some authority on the subject. I'm only on the outer fringe and maybe someone still in the system can clarify.

Did you take any of the Ching Ping Gim seminars? You were gone before the Tassle/Gim seminars I believe (short version taught on a cruise seminar, the complete set taught at recertification came with copy of Quan Pu). Those sets came from Master Lu Jinhai and I believe he offered the complete system to MC.

I could be wrong though. I don't usually pay much attention to form names or history, I just focus on the moves and what I can do with them.

The Leen Sow Kuen handset we learned from him in Shanghai (1998) was so close to the look and feel of WL that we picked it up fairly easy. I really like it and integrated some of the moves into my WL 1st Form 2-man. If we ever find ourselves in the same room in the future I'll show you some.

Hope I'm not too inaccurate in my info.

[Jack Squat]

FYI

The breakfall form and the drunken form are two different forms. Both very difficult to execute........

[CeruleanRyuujin]

So I am kinda Curious, what level are most of the Wah Lum sifus that are currently in Wah Lum still? From what I have heard, most only have up through 6th form, if that, and Chan really has not shown anyone but Mimi and some of the old timers who left long ago the advanced stuff?

Also, I keep hearing about the old Wah Lum vs. the New. I hear that the new is much more wushu. Is this true? Is this why many of the old timers left? obviously politics play a part with any martial art, i am just curious what the main politics were that caused the various rifts...

Anyone know the answers to the above questions?

[Jack Squat]

Each individual has his or her own reasons for leaving WL so I can't give an overall answer for why so-and-so left, only why I did. Thats a story for a different thread, which was already done several years ago (called Why I left WL I believe).

I haven't been in the WL system for awhile and have lost touch with most people I know that are still in it, so I will only comment on my experience. I feel that the trend was definitely more toward wushu-izing the forms. Some people may argue this, please remember I am only giving my opinion. I do not feel this came from MC, but from other Sifu's and students in the organization. This may simply be a reflection of what was/is going on in the Chinese martial art scene in general in the US and some Sifu's and students were more influenced by this than others.

If anyone wonders if they are in a school that is "wushu-ized", regardless of style, or feel that they themselves may be individually "wushu-ized", there is one easy way to find out. Simply go take a look at the weapons rack......

[isol8d]

If anyone wonders if they are in a school that is "wushu-ized", regardless of style, or feel that they themselves may be individually "wushu-ized", there is one easy way to find out. Simply go take a look at the weapons rack......

OK, I'll bite, because I can see this from several angles.

Are you talking about the steel used for the metal weapons, the quantity of weapons or the type of weapons being an indicator?

[yu shan]

Cerulean

Arnt you one of the old timers? I have seen video of some of the earlier years, and it definitely appears that the forms were much more difficult. I suspect MC maybe had to tone down the difficulty of the forms. I could be wrong.

isol8d

I got a hunch your on the right page, but thanks for taking the bite.

[Jack Squat]

Isol8d

I'm referring to the type of steel in the weapons. That being said, I am not flaming wushu by any means. I love wushu and totally respect the wushu players.

[spiralstair]

Hi Guys,
As a long time Wah Lum practitioner I can tell you that the Sifu exam is basically the same as it has always been. My 36 hands for the Sifu test is fundamentally unchanged since 1978. That is the way I teach my students.

The 'Wushu-ized' Wah Lum that people talk about comes from seeing Wah Lum in public demonstrations, shows, or tournaments. The add-ons to forms for the extra 'pop' for the viewers has a very long tradition in martial arts in general, not limited to Wah Lum.

If the school you're attending does a lot of public competitions and/or performances, chances are you'll see students adding gymnastic type movements to their forms to grease the groove with the viewers.
If the school you're attending does not, you're either lucky or unlucky, based on your preference for flash.

One thing for sure though, the surest way to get a "moon cha cha" from Master Chan is to add any kind of a flashy move during the Sifu test.

[CeruleanRyuujin]

Cerulean

Arnt you one of the old timers? .....

Yes and no I guess.... My material is really old, but it did not come from me training directly with Chan. My instructor trained with Yao Li both before and after Chan moved from Boston... and stayed with Yao after the split, focusing on the mantis training he started with... He is now in his 70s and I have taken over teaching the style in the area... The reason for my questions are simply a curiosity of what has changed since the old curriculum (We have very, very little modern wushu in our forms if any)... what can I say, I have an interest in history ;-)

Thanks all for humoring a student of Mantis in the South West.

[Jack Squat]

Spiralstair

Are you really in Switzerland? That must be a beautiful place!

Anyway, I agree with your comments, it is a general practice to spice up the forms for public viewing or tournaments. Everyone does it, always have, always will.

As far as MC giving someone a hard time for changing the forms, etc. I have no doubt that that is also true. I can only imagine some of the things he has seen! As I said, I don't think it came from MC. But I must add that I saw it spill over into the kwoon as well. That's why I made the weapons rack comment (which I already regret). Not going to name names, don't want to cause any arguements or bad vibes. Using wushu weapons for everyday training in traditional schools is just one of those things that crept it's way into many schools here, not just some schools in WL. As I have stated before, just giving one persons opinion (mine). I have read enough of your posts to know where you stand and FYI I feel that you are an asset to the CMA community, not just WL.

And for the record, WL is an awesome style and it helped me tremendously. I recommend it highly. I don't regret my time in the system and I would do it all over again (if only I was young again!!!)

[SoCo KungFu]

Hi Guys,
As a long time Wah Lum practitioner I can tell you that the Sifu exam is basically the same as it has always been. My 36 hands for the Sifu test is fundamentally unchanged since 1978. That is the way I teach my students.

The 'Wushu-ized' Wah Lum that people talk about comes from seeing Wah Lum in public demonstrations, shows, or tournaments. The add-ons to forms for the extra 'pop' for the viewers has a very long tradition in martial arts in general, not limited to Wah Lum.

If the school you're attending does a lot of public competitions and/or performances, chances are you'll see students adding gymnastic type movements to their forms to grease the groove with the viewers.
If the school you're attending does not, you're either lucky or unlucky, based on your preference for flash.

One thing for sure though, the surest way to get a "moon cha cha" from Master Chan is to add any kind of a flashy move during the Sifu test.

The problem though now is that a lot of the people learn the wushu-ized Wah Lum as though it is the actual true technique and don't know better. This is the problem with jazzing up your stuff and not keeping true. I guess if they want to train forms comp that's their choice though.

I learned Wah Lum material but I was never part of WL. Sigung broke away after a fallout with MC in the 80's or 90's I think when crap started going south. He learned a lot of the WL from his higher peers because they knew he'd keep it (WL wasn't his first system) and they knew if they forgot he'd still have it. MC didn't even know what all he had been learning for a while (according to the info that was passed to me, but I can't varify any of it so....) Anyways, the WL stuff I learned was the way it was done at that time frame. The WL I see now all the time...its like a different system. Not just talking the fluff. They do techniques...there's no connection. No martial intent. The stances are weak/out of alignment and there's no power. Limp arms in punches, floppy feet in the kicks. The guys I've spoken too say they don't really practice the mantis keys or any trapping/hooking. Techniques have been altered to be easier and faster for demo and the actual use of the tech was lost. They don't judge their kung fu by actual use nor do they seem to train it to be functional.

I know that there are some out there that try to find ways to keep it real or to make it real if thats the case. But then that is getting into politics and I'm not going to get into that mess between those guys. There's plenty of threads on it anyways.

Those are just my observations from the Florida area. I'm not speaking on anyone in particular since I don't actually know any of the WL people, just see them at times performing. I haven't been to any of the tournies lately though so take what I say with that in mind. That and I no longer train in my old system. I still practice my mantis but I prefer the tiger stuff I know now.

[Chop Socki]

One practitioner who doesn't emphasize focus, power and discipline is too many... yet it still doesn't define the system.

My goal? One student at a time. :p

Practice!

- CS