Laughing Cow

[tnwingtsun]

Before Kung lek axed Mat's thread on remembering the dead at
Hiroshima and Nagasaki,I asked you two questions.


1.If you were the President of the USA in 1941 how would you had handled events??

2.If you had been the President of the USA in 1945 how would you had ended WW2 with Japan???


Old Jong may answer also because his idea was funny,beserker

had some good thoughts,although they were in his Woverine on

crack manner,but mostly true none the less.

I'm sure the Rap crowd has some good input.

[Kristoffer]

I think even though the bombings of Hiroshima was terroble, it made a stop to the war. If the bombs did not drop the war might have continued for a LONG time, killing even more people and possible spreading to other countrys aswell.

Although in this day of age I see no reason or logic to harbor weapons that could literally wipe out the whole world. Usa and Russia is probebly the two most dangerous countrys in the world.

[chen zhen]

Them Spetsnaz are crazy, will kill those Mossad-hos in a second.;)

[Laughing Cow]

tnwingtsun.

What happened, happened talking about alternatives does not change history as we know it at the moment.

Like Mat and many other people I am just so sick and tired of some *******s refusing to remember or recognise certain events due to things that those people did.

How many Americans remember or even know about the fire-ombing of Tokyo and other Japanese Cities taht killed many civillians and was NOT aimed at military targets. Many people see these as war crimes commited by the USA.
Do Americans honour the memory of Nanking?

Lets be honest if everybody acted that way we would have NO remembrance days whatsoever.

Nobody knows how long the war would have gone on if the bomb wasn't dropped, it is all speculation and NOT fact.

Like I said maybe the african-americans should not remember 9/11 or Veterans day due to slavery being commited by the USA.
This is about how I feel about the last discussion.

The USA and other People also needs to remember that they live on a large world with many people and attitudes like that won't gain them many friends and support for their future plans in the world.

Nuff said.

[yenhoi]

War crimes. lol

War crimes are commited by losers. Victors dont commit war crimes. Its really that simple.

War is war, and people die. Killing civilians didnt become such a bad thing until recently. All through history to WW2 killing the other guy's population was widely accepted as a practice of war.

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi
War crimes are commited by losers. Victors dont commit war crimes. Its really that simple.


I guess that must be why the USA is looking so hard for excemption fom the ICC. :eek:



War is war, and people die. Killing civilians didnt become such a bad thing until recently. All through history to WW2 killing the other guy's population was widely accepted as a practice of war.


Agreed, and why is than there so much fuss about nanking and not Tokyo??
:confused:

It is really funny, Japan is one of the real supporters of the USA and will soon send troops to Iraq, if you treat your allies like that how will you treat your enemies??

Seeya round.

[yenhoi]

I guess that must be why the USA is looking so hard for excemption fom the ICC.

Unless something has changed drastically today, the USA does have excemption, we havent signed, and wont. When your big dog on the block, you call the shots.

, if you treat your allies like that how will you treat your enemies??

Japan was not one of the US allies when these 'things happened.'

You mean Japan the 53rd state?

I doubt the US will 'lose' the 'support' of Japan anytime soon.

:rolleyes:

[ZIM]

In August, 1945 the Soviet army was poised to attack the northern end of Japan, whilst perhaps 3 months later the Americans and British would have been in position to begin Operation Olympic, the invasion to the southern islands.

Had the conventional assault taken place, the Soviets would have had a legitimate position to establish primacy in Japan, although they could not have taken the Islands alone.

What all this means is: Japan would have been partitioned in the same way as Korea, Vietnam, Germany, etc. were during the Cold War. The Samurai families of the North would've been killed off, the artisans re-educated, etc, much culture would've likely been tossed.

It may have been interesting- using Tokyo as a counterweight during the Berlin Blockade, threatening attack if the Reds didn't cool it in Eastern Europe, etc. China, maybe, would've been more thoroughly under the Soviet thumb, so no Mao. [There's a bright spot]

But we'd have never been involved in Korea or Vietnam had this been the case. And the Phillipines would have become an armed camp.

Accidents of history/what if's/might have beens.... it may have easily been a much darker world.

[Laughing Cow]

Zim.

Agreed, it could have been much worse.

But history is what it is was, no use huffing and puffing it won't change what happened. Time to move on.

All I am saying is that we should remember the people that died and suffered due to the events of history.

I am not japanese but I do remember Aug. 6th, same way a thought goes out on other days of historic events where civillians died.

Don't know why it is so hard for some to do, and why some have to attach conditions and rules to their compassion.

Yenhoi.

I know that Japan wasn't a US ally during the 2nd world war, but if I remember correctly China was.
:D

[Laughing Cow]

Yenhoi.

if japan is the 53rd state, will Australia be the 54th.

John Howard (Bonsai) already is changing his attitude about US bases on Australian Soil.

[ZIM]

All I am saying is that we should remember the people that died and suffered due to the events of history. I have no problems with what you've written- that's partly why I read history, in fact.

[Laughing Cow]

I think we better let Chen Zhen close this now.
:D

[ZIM]

Not my point. But I'll let it go, no problem.

[tnwingtsun]

>What happened, happened talking about alternatives does not change history as we know it at the moment.<

Agreed,but why not answer the two questions?
You didn't agree with us dropping the two nukes so you must have an alternative in mind.

>Like Mat and many other people I am just so sick and tired of some *******s refusing to remember or recognise certain events due to things that those people did.<

What happened,happened,my first memorys of WW2 came from Grandfathers and Great uncles that served who expressed their
joy and relief that those bombs put an end to the war,an end to the madness,how bittersweet,they are all dead now,I remember that event because I connected with their feelings about that event.

>How many Americans remember or even know about the fire-ombing of Tokyo and other Japanese Cities<

I don't know the answer to that question,I sure as hell do and have since I was a child because of first hand accounts,when I was a kid(I'm pushing 40 now) my Grandad would take me to the VFW with him and hang out with the old guys,went fishing many times with those WW2 Vets and i always learned somthing new about WW2,no glory stories,no history books,no internet,just guys robbed of their youth by a just cause,many kids today can tell you a fifty digit cheat code for a playstation game but don't have a clue as to why we went to war.


>taht killed many civillians and was NOT aimed at military targets. Many people see these as war crimes commited by the USA.<


Study Military history before you put to much into this thought,Tokyo was(and still is for you rappers:p) the Capital city,the seat of a very hostile goverment at that time,it was a VERY BIG Military target and by virtue of any military thinking since the dawn of history proves this point.
Doolittle's raid on that city had a big bonus for the America's morale at that time.
War crimes??
Many more people that lived and fought through that war would tell the many people you speak of that they're full of $hit,to bad theres not many alive now to speak up.

Define War Crimes.
Maybe this will help,
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?action=openPageViewer&docId=6963120

I'm like you,Mat and many others, I am just so sick and tired of some arseholes refusing to remember or recognise certain events.
And due to what they did has EVERYTHING to do with it.

> Nobody knows how long the war would have gone on if the bomb wasn't dropped, it is all speculation and NOT fact.<

Based on FACT,this is what we know.

"Truman and Marshall were intimately familiar with losses in the Pacific during the previous year: over 200,000 casualties from wounds, fatigue and disease, plus 10,000 American dead and missing in the Marianas, 5,500 dead on and around Leyte, 9,000 dead during the Luzon campaign, 6,800 at Iwo Jima, 12,600 at Okinawa, and 2,000 killed in the unexpectedly vicious fighting on Peleliu. Both also knew that, save for some operations around New Guinea, real casualties were routinely outpacing estimates and the gap was widening. They also knew that while America always emerged victorious, operations often were not being completed as rapidly as planned- with all the added cost in blood and treasure that such lengthy campaigns entailed."

How many units of bloody speculation is that??

This is worth the read.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/giangrec.htm

>Do Americans honour the memory of Nanking?<

I do,the WW2 generation was well aware of what the Japanese
did there which gave them even more resolve.

>Like I said maybe the african-americans should not remember 9/11 or Veterans day due to slavery being commited by the USA.<

What a fucing insult to every black Veteran from my Drill Sgt. to my best friend I went through Ranger school with,we saw NO color,Cow,you are tripping in outerspace when you say stuff like that,give yourself a brain check,you can't sugar coat that one.

>The USA and other People also needs to remember that they live on a large world with many people and attitudes like that won't gain them many friends and support for their future plans in the world.<

What attitude???
The will to think for yourself????

>All I am saying is that we should remember the people that died and suffered due to the events of history.<

We are in 100% agreement on that,but please do not down play
Why thoses people suffered and died or whats the point in remembering???????????????

>I think we better let Chen Zhen close this now.<

WHY???

In order to better understand other people's views why should discussion be oppressed???

You only pi$$ed me off when you pulled the race card which is a weak cop out which frankly I didn't expect from you,you can do better than that.

>Don't know why it is so hard for some to do, and why some have to attach conditions and rules to their compassion.<

You make some very good points even though you slipped into a brain **** with the race card,I don't think theres a human alive on this world with unconditional compassion when embroiled in a World War,but you and I do have the gift of compassion,lets just never forget why we remember and what brought on the horror,to bring up that FDR knew in advance of the inpending Japanese attacks and the raw materials imbargos does not excuse what the Japanese did during WW2.

[Laughing Cow]

tnwingtsun.

You want me to answer those 2 questions.

Get a life, NOBODY an give an asnwer to them and you are fully aware of that.
Do you think your little tactics can trap me that easy, I didn't fall for them when I was a teen and sure as hell want fall for it now.

Keep going most of the guys here are so transparent, misinformed and think they know it all.

FYI. Here is a link to a shortened version of the geneva convention on war-crimes.

http://www.survivorsrightsinternational.org/definitions/war_crimes.mv

Take note when it was added to the geneva convention.

Like I said Chen Zhen time to close this.

[tnwingtsun]

Laughing Cow

Why are you so defensive??
You made some good points but also some very ONE sided statements,whats wrong with someone calling you out on your one-sided statements??

>Do you think your little tactics can trap me that easy<

I'm not trying to trap you,lol,I would had never bothered if I didn't think I would get an intelligent discussion from you.
Now I'm starting to wonder.
I was interested in what your ansers would had been,I can answer my questions to you,I would had done the same as history.

>I didn't fall for them when I was a teen and sure as hell want fall for it now.<

Giving Chen Zhen orders is to close a thread because your version of history doesn't ring true and someone disagrees with you is kind of well,acting like a baby,if for any reason this thread should be closed its not because we disagree,its because you insulted many black US Veterans with your BS statment.
You get a life Mr.2k plus
:rolleyes:

Now that we've both thrown mud why can't we have a logical discussion?

I read the 1949 Articles.

[Mr Punch]

Yo tnwt, cheers for opening a debate on this one.

Actually I deleted the first thread, not Kung Lek, because

1) it was past Aug 6 and
2) it had metamorphosed from what I had intended: simply a gesture of respect to a lot of people who died in horrible circumstances.

That's why on the original thread, I thanked you for bringing up Nanking and still saying "RIP TO ALL."

As I said here (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24422) before it was locked down, I don't agree with the idea that there was a connection between Truman's decision to bomb Hiroshima and the atrocities at Nanking. But I knew that someone would bring it up on a Hiroshima thread, and I was grateful that you did it in a respectful manner (if a little trolly!) before the real wankers like Berzerker came in.

And I thought your questions were quite interesting.

1) In a similar manner I guess... though I'm not so sure of my own historical knowledge of the finer details at the start, or of its relevance to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, other than it being a possible way to understand the need for demonstration of power and mass violence within most of us.

2) By listening to my generals and offering a surrender treaty that the Japanese could accept, as opposed to one that I knew on all of the intelligence available that they would refuse, thus prolonging the war and giving me carte blanche to test the A-bombs to set the tone for the Cold War at the behest of a second rate engineer and his cronies.

I do not believe that the bombings were necessary to stop the war.


As for feelings across the world at the time, none of us know but please think about the following.

As for your grand-uncles, I had one who was shot in the death railway in Burma, among others, and even their families remember the outright horror at the bombs, that according to them, most of the world felt. The relief that later took over, as the squaddies realised they weren't going to have to face disembowelment at the hands of fanatics, and the elation at the final end of the war, seem to have eclipsed the very very real shock that I think most people felt at the time.

Who can blame them? Both feelings were very real, and when you have lived through such horror, you can understand the desire as you get older, to stop the nightmares by replacing the horror with gratitude.

Unfortunately, there is only my grandmother left alive now... none of the vets themselves, but she speaks of how her brothers were appalled by the Bombs, despite being relieved by the end of the war. She says the feeling changed over the years. And, as a Christian, she admits her feelings included a feeling of revenge, of justice, but only years later, one which she has battled and thankfully believes she has overcome. Her then surviving brothers never even contemplated vengeful feelings. Only the relief.

We can never understand those feelings.

Every conflict is different, especially in hindsight, with added conventions, so even vets of every other horrific conflict cannot understand those feelings. Let alone us on this board, mostly civilians, mostly getting up, going to work, arguing about our ******* govts, making love, feeding the kids, sleeping.

People like those who lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As close as I can get to human feeling, on a website, talking to strangers I'll never meet across the world, is by expressing my sorrow that those people had to die, regardless of the rights and wrongs of what their govt had done, or what led up to it, or what followed on from it. Regardless of my nationality, political hue, religion, or however the **** badass I may or may not be.

War is ****. It is sometimes necessary. That doesn't mean RIP TO ALL shouldn't be aimed for as a mark of respect.

One final note. Some people who give a **** about the state of humankind write messages on message boards on Nov 11, on May 8, on Dec 7, on Sep 11, etc in an attempt to come to terms with human atrocity, while trying to keep our distance from this darkness that is in all of us to some degree. The Japanese have never apologised for Nanking. They have never apologised for Bataan, Korea, etc. But then, they see Hiroshima and Nagasaki as something distant that foreigners talk about. There is no Japan, there is no Japanese national feeling, according to most of the Japanese I have spoken to about this. They lost. They can never come to terms with their loss, their actions, or anything like it. They just want to move on. But what some of them seem to be starting to realise is it's not up to them to decide when it's OK to move on, and indeed, they can never move on until they start trying to come to terms with some of these issues.

The morality of these issues is less relevant to us than it is to the Japanese. For us, there can only be hollow messages of condolence. The horror of these issues is as relevant to the Japanese as it is to the survivors of Nanking, but at least the survivors of Nanking, as the wronged, have a means of trying to come to terms with it.

Hope you could stick with the long post!

[tnwingtsun]

"Hope you could stick with the long post!"

Yes I did!

Very well said,I respect and admire the message of peace(as I took it) I got from your post.

Thank you for responding,to expand on your answer to question # 2

Allow me to quote D. M. Giangreco again.

"Some today assert, in effect, that it would have been more humane to have just continued the conventional B-29 bombing of Japan, which in six months had killed nearly 300,000 people and displaced or rendered homeless over 8 million more. They also assert that the growing US blockade would have soon forced a surrender because the Japanese faced, quote: "imminent starvation." US Planners at the time, however, weren't nearly so bold, and the whole reason why advocates of tightening the noose around the Home Islands came up with so many different estimates of when blockade and bombardment might force Japan to surrender was because the situation wasn't nearly as cut and dried as it appears today, even when that nation's supply lines were severed. Japan would indeed have become, quote: "a nation without cities," as urban populations suffered grievously under the weight of Allied bombing; but over half the population during the war lived and worked on farms. Back then the system of price supports that has encouraged Japanese farmers today to convert practically every square foot of their land to rice cultivation did not exist. Large vegetable gardens were a standard feature of a family's land and wheat was also widely grown.

The idea that the Japanese were about to run out of food any time soon was largely derived from repeated misreadings of the Summary Report of the 104-volume US Strategic Bombing Survey of Japan. Using Survey findings, Craven and Cate, in the multi-volume US Army Air Force history of WWII detailed the successful US mine-laying efforts against Japanese shipping which essentially cut Japanese oil and food imports, and state only that by mid-August, quote: "the calorie count of the average man's fare had shrunk dangerously." Obviously, some historians enthusiasm for the point they are trying to make has gotten the better of them since the reduced nutritional value of meals is somewhat different than "imminent starvation."


This is a big read but will shed some light on Truman's choice.

Casualty Projections for the U.S. Invasions of Japan, 1945-1946

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/invade.htm

I may seem hardheaded on this but I think its important to understand the whats and whys on the use of what we know now as global destructive force,its a shadow that hangs over the world now more than it did during the cold war.

Again,bravo on your post

:)

[chen zhen]

It is totally reverse here from the main board, here I don't close down OT topics!:D
This thread is great, i will let it stay, as long as u keep it reasonable.

Also: people should remember the 12 million ethnic germans who lived in eastern europe, who were made refugees by the soviet union during WW2. The Russians killed them in millions & raped roughly the same amount of women. This is something history has forgotten.
+ the 100.000's of germans who were terror-bombed by the allies. No-one was really innocent during that war.

[quiet man]

Originally posted by chen zhen

+ the 100.000's of germans who were terror-bombed by the allies. No-one was really innocent during that war.

Just remember Dresden...



No one is really innocent, there are only powerless.

[chen zhen]

Numbers from a website I just found:

-----

Table 3 - Civilians killed during the Second World War (by state)

minimum maximum

Allied Powers

Soviet Union ** 16 000 000 19 000 000
Poland *** 5 675 000 7 000 000
Yugoslavia 1 200 000
France 350 000
Greece 325 000
Czechoslovakia 215 000
Netherlands 200 000
Britain 92 673
Belgium 76 000
Norway 7 000
Denmark 2 000

Axis Powers

Germany 780 000
Hungary 290 000
Romania 200 000
Italy 152 941
Bulgaria 10 000
Finland 2 000

Total (estimate) 27 077 614

** This huge number, which is based on post-war demographic shortfalls, not
on recorded deaths, conceals several categories listed in Table 5. It is
only partially attributable to the German Occupation. It also ignores the
breakdown by nationality, never officially disclosed, where the heaviest
losses where sustained by Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Russians, Poles, Balts
and Jews.

*** The lower figure does not allow for Polish citizens obliged to adopt
Soviet citizenship in 1939.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Table 4 - The Holocaust: the genocide of Jews by the Nazis, 1939-45
(by states of origin, minimum and maximum estimates)

minimum maximum

Poland 2 350 000 3 000 000
Soviet Union 1 500 000 2 000 000
Germany & Austria 218 000 240 000
Hungary 200 000 300 000
Romania 200 000 300 000
Netherlands 104 000 110 000
Czechoslovakia 90 000 95 000
France 60 000 65 000
Greece 57 000 60 000
Yugoslavia 55 000 60 000
Belgium 25 000 28 000
Italy 8 500 9 500
Luxembourg 2 800 3 000
Norway 700
Denmark less than 100

Total (estimate) 4 871 000 6 271 500
average c.5 571 300

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Table 5 - Categories of people killed in Soviet Russia and the Soviet Union
1917-1953 (excluding war losses 1939-1945)
(after R. Medvedev, R. Conquest)

minimum maximum

Civil War & Volga Famine, 1918-45 3 000 000 5 000 000
Political repressions in the 1920s tens of thousands
Forced collectivisation and
'dekulakization' after 1929 10 000 000 14 000 000
Ukrainian Terror-Famine, 1932-3 6 000 000 7 000 000
Great Terror (1934-9) and Purges 1 000 000
Deportations to the Gulag, to 1937 10 000 000
Shootings and random executions, 1937-9 1 000 000
Deportations from Eastern Poland, Baltic
States, and Romania, 1939-1940 2 000 000
Foreign POWs: Poles, Finns, Germans,
Romanians, Japanese 1 000 000
Deportations to the Gulag, 1939-45 7 000 000
Deportations of nationalities: Volga
Germans, Chechens, Ingush, Crimean
Tatars, etc. 1 000 000
Post-war screening of repatriates and
inhabitants of ex-occupied territory 5 000 000 6 000 000

Gross total (median estimate) c.54 million

NB. Several of these categories overlap.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Table 6 - Principal categories with Europe's death toll (1914-1945)
* = 1 million deaths

Total civillian losses
in Europe in WW2 ***************************

Soviet citizens killed during WW2 ***************************

Victims of the Soviet Gulag **********************

Military losses WW2 **************

Collectivization and
dekulakization losses ************

Military losses WW1 ********

Losses during Russian Civil War *******

Ukrainian Terror-Famine ******

Jewish Holocaust ******

Poland's losses, 1939-1945 ******

Total US and UK losses during WW2 * (half of)

Total civilian losses
in Europe in WW1 *****
(chiefly in Austrian Galicia,
Russian Poland, Serbia, Belgium
and N. France)

Warning: Except for the Military losses during WW1 and the Jewish Holocaust,
none of these estimates have been satisfactorily researched or
substantiated. They can only be used as general indicators of the scale of
the losses involved.

[Mr Punch]

tnwingchun
many kids today can tell you a fifty digit cheat code for a playstation game
:mad: Maaaan, that's so much horse puckey! You'll have to show me some proof that kids can remember fifty-digit pokes!


Ok, Ok, I'm stalling while I read that mammoth link of yours, and find some quotes for what I say.

On the surface, I don't disagree with that article/research, but it seems to contain a lot of hindsight. I'll keep reading. But, as our arguments aren't mutually exclusive, just from different angles, I'll try and find some dirt on Truman, McArtur, et Al (actually, I blame that ****ing Al: he gets everywhere...!:D)...

Later.

[chen zhen]

I agree that article was'nt that well-researched, I'll try to find a better one. It really did'nt have the right numbers, especially for Germans, and there was'nt japanese casualties at all.

[yenhoi]

Hail chen zhen.

"They drop 100, 200, 500 pound bombs on us, then we drop 1000, 2000, 5000 pound bombs on them."

:rolleyes:

[ZIM]

Not a slam, LC, but wouldn't it be easier to just say that you're opposed to using nuclear weapons in any capacity and will never forgive the USA for doing so historically, regardless of circumstances?

This is, at least, honest and forthright, a definite statement of purpose and one that doesn't muddy itself with finger-pointing on both sides.

A suggestion for clarity, not a complaint or insult. If I'm reading you wrongly, then I apologize.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by ZIM
Not a slam, LC, but wouldn't it be easier to just say that you're opposed to using nuclear weapons in any capacity and will never forgive the USA for doing so historically, regardless of circumstances?

This is, at least, honest and forthright, a definite statement of purpose and one that doesn't muddy itself with finger-pointing on both sides.

A suggestion for clarity, not a complaint or insult. If I'm reading you wrongly, then I apologize.

You are right I should have stated it like that.

I am also worried about the current trend of the USA dis-allowing everybody else to own them(except approved allies) while they want to build new ones.

To me this breeds BIIIIG Problems and, IMHO, is because they used one once with a certain degree of success.

Today's battle field nukes will be similar in power to the two that were dropped.
ICBM nukes alrady pack a lot more punch.

Nukes these days won't work as a deterent as too much time has passed since the Hiroshima bombing, mankind has a short memory.

[ZIM]

Fair enough. Of course, I don't like that you hold the historical use of nukes against us, but thats the decision of forebears, not mine.

FWLIW, as an American, I will offer this: I live as part of what is considered the Western world and like or not, it thrives on war, exploitation, industrialization, capitalism, etc. Like it or not, I'm here and living fairly well because somebody else killed or bombed some other person- to ignore that is to live in a fantasy. And note that I am including much of the West, not just the USA. Other societies have their individual burdens, but I will not address them here.

It 'works' for us and not much else has been devised [that I am aware of] that could possibly replace it. It could be better, certainly. It could also be worse, so there's a need for me to accept it and change what I may, difficult as that is.

I do wish very much that the rest of the world could share in the bounty that is the West's. I believe that they're going for it in the ways they can. Hopefully, this will not lead to further wars.

I'm not sure how to best approach that. Economic assistance and education has been tried, political help has had varied results, resource development has caused as many problems as it has solved. Perhaps it is the perception of distrust that taints it all.

But the issue is not to give up, to keep trying. As was written: "What happened, happened talking about alternatives does not change history as we know it at the moment". No, but the future can change.

[Laughing Cow]

Zim.

We are bassically in agreement, I as a European fully understand your viewpoint.

Anyhuh, gottat go. There are some houses out there that I want to look with the view of owning one.

Seeya later.

P.S.: War exploitation and so on have existed for centuries across the globe.
Wars are always fought over some form of resource, I can't recall one war where money/resources/power was not an underlying motive.

[yenhoi]

7 days war.

:rolleyes:

[chen zhen]

Hail chen zhen.
"They drop 100, 200, 500 pound bombs on us, then we drop 1000, 2000, 5000 pound bombs on them."

:rolleyes:

WTF is this?!

Dun make me close this down..;)

[yenhoi]

I quote der Furher.

:eek:

[tnwingtsun]

Countries with Nuclear Weapons Capability

Acknowledged Nuclear Weapons Capability
Britain
China
France
India
Pakistan
Russia
United States

Unacknowledged Nuclear Weapons Capability
Israel

Seeking Nuclear Weapons Capability
Iran
North Korea1
Abandoned Nuclear Weapons Development
South Africa—Constructed but then voluntarily dismantled 6 uranium bombs.

Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine—When Soviet Union broke up, these former states possessed nuclear warheads that they have since given up.

What we know so far.


>I am also worried about the current trend of the USA dis-allowing everybody else to own them(except approved allies) while they want to build new ones.

To me this breeds BIIIIG Problems and, IMHO, is because they used one once with a certain degree of success.<

Europe has her share of nuclear weapons.

I feel safer knowing that certain countries don't have nuclear weapons.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/deplete_uranium.htm

"Heroes like Osama bin Laden will never bring victory to the Muslims. They can only cause damage to the enemy, but they can never bring victories. You might disagree with me, but I personally see positive changes in the Muslim world. The dictators that rule us are under tremendous amount pressure from their god, the Sleeping Giant (i.e., the US), and from their people who might end up assassinating them.

When the Muslims get rid of their corrupted dictators and start building their own weapons and technologies, then we will see how much and for how long the Sleeping Giant's men can fight.

Don't ever under estimate the Muslims, because it was the Muslims who invented/discovered many of the laws for Physics and Astronomy, as well as invented Algebra (named after the Muslim Al-Jabir) and many parts of Trigonometry, and found cures to many diseases such as Chicken Pox and others.

My point is, it's easy for the Muslims to come back and to show your Sleeping Giant how small he is."

I don't think theres anything wrong with being worried about countries that show little control over their nuclear security,ie
North Korea bragging to use those weapons,suitcase nukes disappearing from former Soviet block countrys.

I think once certain countrys get Nuclear weapons there is a very high probabilty of an all out exchange with Israeli,at the very least car bombings will turn into TAC NUKES going off.

LC or anybody,how should we go about trying to prevent this??

BTW,I don't know if I agree with the long term harmful affects of
depleted uranium,too much of it in anyones back yard can't be a good thing though.

[chen zhen]

Yenhoi: Yes, I see that. So you're calling me a nazi symphatizer, just because I try to make people understand that innocent germans was killed too?

F u.

[shaolin kungfu]

LOL at that picture. He looked like the crypt keeper.:D

[chen zhen]

I can make it an avatar, if anyone wants it..?
:D

[shaolin kungfu]

Please do.:)

I'll save it and use it sometime soon probably. :cool:

[yenhoi]

I didnt call you anything. calm the **** down.

If anything, Im the nazi symphatizer.

fu 2


;)

[chen zhen]

OK...*puff**heeve*
;)

I'm calm now. I'm just used to be called names in these discussions. I thought u were a good guy, and then suddenly..
But I'm easy now.:cool:

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ZIM
I live as part of what is considered the Western world and like or not, it thrives on war, exploitation... Like it or not, I'm here and living fairly well because somebody else killed..some other person

Is there any place on the planet where this isn't the case?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
BTW,I don't know if I agree with the long term harmful affects of depleted uranium,too much of it in anyones back yard can't be a good thing though.

It's effects are minimalized as it's radiation cannot penetrate skin, it is rapidly and efficiently excreted in the urine, and it cannot pass the placental barrier.

The main hazards from it would be in the kidneys and lungs. The former resulting from non-radiologically toxic effects of chronic exposure; and the later in the special case of inhaling a sufficient amount of powderized DU small enough for direct access to the lungs but too large to be absorbed by the capillaries there.

The (non-radiological) toxicity can also cause poisoning if chunks of it cause wounds which are untreated.

[ZIM]

Is there any place on the planet where this isn't the case? Nope. In fact I would go so far as to state that other societies do a more thorough-going job of exploitation and mass-slaughter than the West does. But we have the reputation, so what can you do? :o

That's why I wrote 'other societies have their individual burdens but I will not address them here'.