Joint manipulation

[Shaolin-Do]

No Im not talking about rolling a doobie that looks like nixon.

Which of the joints on the human body do you feel are most easily locked,manipulated? What locks do you prefer to set these particular joints in? why?

[Water Dragon]

Elbow= Elbow locking with front sweep or shoulder throw w/ break
Spine= Spine locking with shaving (inner leg hook)
Neck= Diagonal Cut (O Soto Gari)

I'm starting to play with locking the knee to set up different sweeps.

[shaolinboxer]

Joint locks are most effective when they are used to create a direct connection to the attackers center. Pain is often not sufficient to exercise control, but pain + loss of balance works much better.

[rubthebuddha]

i find working with the shoulder to be easier than the others, particularly through chi sau.

[truewrestler]

Shaolin-Do, should we assume you are talking about *standing* joint manipulation?

Something which I have seen many times in MMA is a shoulder lock using an underhook .... your opponent bends forward to relive pressure and you then fire a knee to the head. It can also be done without a lock if the opponent leans over while you have an underhook then you place a hand on their head and start kneeing. I'll see if I can find an example of this online.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Shaolin-Do, should we assume you are talking about *standing* joint manipulation?"

Nope. You dont have to be standing to lock someone of course :D

BTW, Ive studied bjj quite extensively before, and am looking forward to getting back into it on the side.

[No_Know]

Fingers, shoulder:

-Bend and turn to a side, the fingers.

-(B)locking the aftarms at the shoulder, with a loose grab hand position. Then follow, press and yield-to the aftarms.

[Oso]

in a non competative environment where they don't whine about small joint manipulation (jk, relax you freaks) start with the smallest joints and work inward to the spine locking each joint in turn.

this must be done quickly and with as much pain to the unfortunate one as possible. don't relax during the transitions.

[Cheese Dog]

Neck cranks, both standing and on the ground.

[SevenStar]

shoulder
elbow
neck
wrist
knee
ankle
spine


In that order, for me. I'm not only basing this on ease of manipulation without resistance, but the frequency in which I lock those joints while rolling.

[chen zhen]

There's really not any more joints u can add to the list now, is there..?

Oh, fingers of course.

[SevenStar]

yeah, fingers. I left those off my list intentionally though, because it's rare that I try anything on a finger. In my longfist days, there were chin na techs for the fingers, but now, I don't have much need for them.

[chen zhen]

Fingers are good on someone who tries to do wristlocks & other sh!t on you.

[SevenStar]

standing, but not really on the ground. If we're on the ground and I have your arm, it's likely that your other arm will not be in a position to get my fingers. Plus, you'll likely be busy trying to fight my armbar and not worried about my fingers.

[No_Know]

SevenStar, I wouldn't even try to use my other arm. I use what ever else to give the arm you've got the leverage to wriggle~- out.

Next plan [wincing face] You win, I'm dead (strained voice).

If you yare going to be naisnse and keep it up, I'll move extreme and get out or get crippled. I hope I've conditioned myself to not allow me to get in too deep. Mostly, recognizing the slope of the continental shelf.~

One can hope.:-)...

[Dragon Warrior]

fingerlocks arent used when training in bjj, but that doesnt mean they are not effective.

For example, suppose i have someone in an armbar and he is defending by grabbing his other arm. Sometimes when the person is strong it can be very difficult to pull that arm straight using good juijitsu techniqe. Grabbing one of his fingers and applying a lock or just pulling it may be more effective when trying to finish the armbar.

Often when training i'll be stuck in this position. Sometimes instead of finishing the armbar, i'll attack with a wristlock and force a submission (a wrist lock i learned from kung fu), or i'll use it to cause a distraction and finish the armbar. I thought this was a good example of kung fu technique i've utilized in bjj.

Standing up it is much harder to apply locks, ecspcially against well trained martial artists. Once in a while when sparring in kung fu, i'll get a beginner in a wristock, choke, gilliotin (spelling?) choke or an armlock into a takedown. Very very very rarely against more advanced students.

It was amazing when Sakuraba applied the kimura standing up against Henzo Gracie. Sak finished it on the ground, but it was one if the best applied locks i've ever seen standing up. I don't think there is a better move than that when somebody has you in a bear hug from behind.

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, I like fingers for locking too. Actually fingers are probably the easiest joint to break, which is why it's an illegal maneuver in MMA meets, and therefore not included in most MMA styles. Cool move though.

[Dragon Warrior]

Yeah finger locks are great when fighting street rules (no rules), but dont make the mistake of using them in order to stop a fight. Most people will feel a lot of pain from a finger lock, but some wont stop fighting. I know if my fingers were broken i would not stop.

I wouldnt spend to much time training fingerlocks though. Just learn the most effective ways of applying them and understand that they can be effective if you use them the right way.

I wouldnt recommend using fingerllocks when sparring or rolling though, for obvious reasons.

[chen zhen]

7*: I also meant standing, not ground.

-cz

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Dragon Warrior
fingerlocks arent used when training in bjj, but that doesnt mean they are not effective.

For example, suppose i have someone in an armbar and he is defending by grabbing his other arm. Sometimes when the person is strong it can be very difficult to pull that arm straight using good juijitsu techniqe. Grabbing one of his fingers and applying a lock or just pulling it may be more effective when trying to finish the armbar.

Often when training i'll be stuck in this position. Sometimes instead of finishing the armbar, i'll attack with a wristlock and force a submission (a wrist lock i learned from kung fu), or i'll use it to cause a distraction and finish the armbar. I thought this was a good example of kung fu technique i've utilized in bjj.



I'm not saying they're not effective at all...

as for the position you mentioned, however, I will usually either use my feet to kick the arm out, shove the arm to the side - forcing it out of his grip (sometimes in conjuntion with using my feet to kick his arm away), use the wrist lock, as you mentioned, or go for a bicep crush.

[yenhoi]

Elbows
Neck
Knees
Spine(lower back)
Shoulders
Hips
Ankles
Wrist

In that order, basically. Ground and Standing. (All it takes is contact.)

All paths lead to puter kapela.

I am obsessed with elbows.

:eek:

[Oso]

don't forget that you don't have to break the finger joint. shouldn't break it really.

A) once a joint is broken you can't use it for control. It may hurt like hell but in a fight most people will fight through that level of pain, as we all know.

B)fingerlocks should be used as a lead in to other locks or in conjunction with another lock.

[Dragon Warrior]

"I'm not saying they're not effective at all...

as for the position you mentioned, however, I will usually either use my feet to kick the arm out, shove the arm to the side - forcing it out of his grip (sometimes in conjuntion with using my feet to kick his arm away), use the wrist lock, as you mentioned, or go for a bicep crush."


Do you think a fingerlock might be used well in that position????


I know all those moves except the bisep crush. Havent learned that yet. Do you just take the leg that is over his face and turn it so it is over his elbow and then sit up to crush the bisep????

I'll usually try to get the guys elbow under my armpit, and pull on an angle toward his head and usually i get it.

One time I was sparring with my friend and we got on the ground. I got him into an armbar position but he held his arm. I punched him in the stomach to distract him and pulled the arm. It worked really well.

[FatherDog]

Elbow
Knee
Ankle
Wrist
Hip
Shoulder
Neck
Spine

In that order.

[Shaolin-Do]

Hmm... spine locks... Please give an example...
:)

[norther practitioner]

What I concider "spine locks" is more of cranking on a persons head, twisting up there neck until you throw them, they throw themselves.... etc...
I like wrist locks, 'cause they hurt like a biatch... still have to get more than just the needle to the bottom of the sea at speed though.

[yenhoi]

Yeah, neck cranks basically. I included spine (lower back) because when someone is twisting (coiling, retracting, preparing for some sort of strike, etc) you can lock their spine with pressure from nealy any place you have contact - specially if you have contact on their hips, shoulders, or lowerback somehow - then knock them over or something.

At any rate I want the spine somehow.

:eek: