Tcma

[Shaolin-Do]

Originally posted by saek san


Let's ask ourselves, how can we promote CMA and continue the tradition of growth and development?

Thought this question deserved its own thread.

First off... Id have to say people need to be a little more open about styles, less secretive about all their "deadly techniques".

[red5angel]

How about fighting tournemants. TMA is getting a bad name in some areas because they can't seem to hold their own in competition and like it or not, that is a venue that is paid attention to. If you can see it work in the ring, then you know it can work in real life.

[red5angel]

oh yeah, and get rid of any art ending in "do" and starting with "shaolin"

[Shaolin-Do]

Sounds like a plan. And we can get rid of styles that cant decide on one name.
:rolleyes:

:D


Yeah, apparently kung fuers tend to get whooped in tourneys... :(
If they even compete... Fact of the matter is, tournament shape is generally phenominal. Tip top. The point is to win, and you have to be the best, so you try harder. A lot of kfers seem to just do it for health, and due to the lesser popularity of the art, there just arent that many people into it that seem to be interested in tournament fighting... And a lot of KFers seem to be under the misconception that grappling is useless... Shortly after making this assertion they get mopped by a grappler... Ground game is necessary to be a well rounded fighter. You dont have to be a master, but you gotta at least learn and train enough to get back off the ground...

[norther practitioner]

Getting rid of the end all be all myth would help a lot of arts out...
Too many think they are the shiznit, when in fact they are built out of the same principles as most others. Promoting cma should be a lot easier as it can encompass a whole family, we try to get parents into our tai chi or kung fu program while having there kids in the kids program.. brings back a little bit of the family aspect found in cma...

[Shaolin-Do]

Theres actually quite a few families training at my kwoon, and it does kinda make it nice :)


Which school do you train at NP?

[red5angel]

SD - I also find a lot of kungfu guys train for "self-defense" reasons or for aesthetic reasons. I rarely run into KF guys who want to compete and are willing to train just that hard to do it. It doesn't mean they aren't out there but they are few and far between.

[Shaolin-Do]

"I also find a lot of kungfu guys train for "self-defense""

And most of these people still train unrealisticly. :(

[norther practitioner]

Shen chuan guan..... spirit boxing school
Body in Balance...

[themeecer]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Promoting cma should be a lot easier as it can encompass a whole family, we try to get parents into our tai chi or kung fu program while having there kids in the kids program.. brings back a little bit of the family aspect found in cma...

I strongly feel this is the ticket. I believe this is superior to tournament competetion successes. Yes, when the Gracies were dominating the UFC you had a lot of people flocking to their schools. But you are limiting your demographics to 16-30 y/o males. This is a much smaller percentage of the population. Other age groups are not going to be interested in this type of fighting. I think we could learn a few things from all the TKD schools out there. I don't think calling them McDojos is a 100% negative thing. McDonalds has the most succesful franchise in the world. The reason for this, they have a proven system that maximizes profit and efficiency. If we can pattern our schools off of proven success principles we can not only make more money for ourselves but also expose more people to the martial arts. Our schools need more 'tai chi for seniors' classes. We need to offer free qualified instructrion in rape prevention. And even though at times I hate teaching kids, MA classes geared for kids. I'd like to have a school that you can start in when you are 5 and stay with for the remainder of your life.

Please note: My praise of a 'mcdojo' system does not include treating students like numbers or only seeing them as profit. The 'family' aspect has to be there. It just doesn't hurt if some good business principles are there as well.

[red5angel]

shaolin do, exactly. Part of the reason I took up some sportive type training and am taking it on more seriously now, is because in almost all the TMA schools I have been to or visited, chi sau is the closest I have ever got to sparring! TMA schools just don't do it anymore and I don't get it.

[Shaolin-Do]

We spar in SD, its just generally softer contact(until bb, even then never really "full contact", and honestly, a lot of the people just fight. Dont really try and use techniques, so often that it really makes me happy when I see people actually using what they have learned.

Exactly why Im really looking forward to the SC guys getting back together here.. from what I understand they like to pound the crap out of each other. :D

"We need to offer free qualified instructrion in rape prevention."

Im strongly contemplating teaching something along these lines for the spring semester at UTSA... Been asking around, and lots and lots of college age women are REALLY interested in something like this, geared towards women, and not cardio kick boxing cr@p.

[themeecer]

Not to say you're not qualified, but I've seen a few schools offer 'rape prevention' when they were not even close to being qualified. Heck .. I've taught a couple classes like that myself. Now that I'm a little wiser I wish I had someone else to have done that. I could teach a woman how to defend themselves in these situations, but not in the week they gave me to teach. I would want at least a year with them. I teach 'how to fight' effectivly after years of training. I don't teach how to fight off an aggressor twice your size with only a week of 2 hour classes. I don't understand a woman's psyche (hehe that's an understatement), when they are confronted with these situations. It's easy for me to tell a woman to react in a situation like this when their minds may be locking up on them. I would prefer someone to teach that knows how to maximize their time to teach the most effective, easiest remembered techniques possible.

[brothernumber9]

I suppose building or promoting TCMA is somehwat subjective since some of it will relegate to the argument of fighting. I believe in the fighting aspect more than not. Schools just need to get out there and fight using theories and techniques of the systems they study (though not solely if opportunities present themselves otherwise). i think heavy promotion of San Shou and Open Lei Tai or MMA fights and parallel promotion or explanation by proponents of its ties to TCMA are what is needed. Although more than a few here have less than positive thoughts towards someone like Sifu David Ross, his and his classmates' efforts are what is needed for TCMA schools to progress back to what most of us have been told are the standards of our practices. One of the biggest selling points by any school is the promotion of its champions, especially its fighting champions, even Tai Chi, Bagua, and Xing Yi tout the fighting prowesses of treasured masters. I doubt my Sifu would ever let any student open a school without full contact or proven fight experience.

[norther practitioner]

Wow, I think I might actually agree with you meecer...lol :D

Such the truth in way too many situations.

[Shaolin-Do]

So basically, our only chance to legitimize kung fu is though tournaments?

NP- Didnt even see that school in the phone book... After the visit Im kinda debating moving up there...
:D

[norther practitioner]

SD, we will be in the next edition... we just opened the new school last month. Lakewood is a nice area too... There are a few good schools in town, some very good mma and bjj guys, some good cma, and some other good tma schools, however there are plenty of mcdojo style schools here too... good scenes, etc...


Who said it wasn't legit... lol
If you are looking for street cred. go train for fighting that way specificly..

I'm thinking more in line with the fact that most cma schools are smallish, a lot of sifus have a tougher time marketing and keeping students than jma and kma... Is it the nature of the beast, or is it its handler?

[Shaolin-Do]

Maybe a little of both?

:)

Have you heard/know anything of the wu-tang school there?
I know theres only 15 students and a test required to enroll...
That doesnt really mean too much tho :)

[red5angel]

I guess it just depends on what you mean by legitimize, what do you mean?

[norther practitioner]

Have you heard/know anything of the wu-tang school there?

No, I know of an internal school a few blocks from mine, beccas school, my school, wahlum school, sd school, no wu-tang school, where did you get info for them?


I didn't know we weren't legit, or are you talking about in the sporting arenas ala ufc, k1, pride, etc...

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, and less pseudo spiritualism and more conflict resolution and risk awareness training.
The problem with the whole sport fighting thing is that to win them you have to train for that format. When I was training for San Shou,my kung fu sucked but my kickboxing and wrestling were great. At the end of the day, if your main reason for training is to win competitions, then chances are you'll do a competitive style. However, I also think the total lack of competitive sparring that you see in some schools is also destructive. Better to fight like a kickboxer than not being able to fight at all. The problem is that San Shou and Qing Da aren't really the answer either. You need a format that allows open hand techniques, grabs and joint manipulations, as well as punches, kicks, sweeps and throws. Maybe Koushu Lei Tai is the way forwards, with a bit of a rule revision, or mabe we should go for a format closer to sport Ju Jitsu.
To Say that CMA guys can't hold their own in MMA is a bit untrue, as very few have entered and half of those who have were from seriously iffy schools and lineages.

[Shaolin-Do]

To gain wider acceptance in the public opinion and eyes. Its not how I feel, I was just recapping whats been said thus far.

F*CK! :( just accidentally deleted a whole paragraph that I made a good point... and forgot what the hell I wrote remembering my response to R5s question. :(
**** my shortterm memory loss.
:(







:D

[themeecer]

As I with you NP. :)

I liked the thread I read a while back about removing testing fees and increasing monthly fees to compensate this. I feel this is a win-win situation. The instructor won't be loosing any money and it is a great marketing tool. 'You don't pay for your belts here, you earn them.'

I've also been toying with the idea I've seen other schools offer. I see the package deals they offer a lot. You get a uniform and a month or two for a flat rate. I don't care if we make a dime on the sale of the uniform. If a student buys one this way they almost feel obligated to stick with lessons because they already spent the money on the uniform. For schools that make you sign contracts this isn't an issue, but I'm not keen on the idea of contracts. If you don't want to be taking classes anymore, I don't want you there.

Any other ideas?

[Black Jack]

James Cagney would choke Bodhidharma the f@ck out! Then he would put out his coffin nail on the fat *******s forehead.

Heeeee.......Yahhhhhhh!

[Shaolin-Do]

"they almost feel obligated to stick with lessons because they already spent the money on the uniform."

Yessir.
:)

Earning your belts does sound nice, and I also like the fact that for every student you bring in (if they stay), you get 10$ off your monthly tuition... (thats how it is at my kwoon at least) Eventually you can get rid of tuition all together... :)

[themeecer]

Nice.

SD ... who's your teacher? I liked that the SD school in Lexington had a seminar by Master Joe Schaefer on the business aspect of MA. I wish I could have made that. I'm trying to remember what the brochure said about it. Something to the tune of Master Joe wanting to get a 'Ph.D' in MA school administration. He read like 200 business books on the subject and under his instruction the number of students in schools under him went from 0 to over 600 in 10 years. I know nothing else about the man, but I liked this about him. I wish we had more of this. I like to be around more people like this, so I can pick their brains.

[themeecer]

Speaking of tuition what is everyone paying out there?


Our school offers Tuesdays and Thursdays from 6 till around 8:30 for $30 a month.

[norther practitioner]

It comes down to matial arts schools as teaching the arts, centered around different aspects, some emphasise different things. Different strokes for different folks.. When does a school become a mcdojo/kwoon. Unfortunately it is a business, that needs to make money to survive, there are many methods to this. Contracts can work, they are just overemphasised (sp?) in most cases. We do contracts, but they aren't all that binding, we do uniforms now, but we also do a fair amount of training in forms and for forms competition. We fight too, do two man sets, the whole deal, it just gets frustrating when people can't make the commitment and don't always show up, now we have all these people in different spots and have to split up our lessons which makes much more work. I'd have to say that the lack of fighting at some schools is disheartening, but it is also usually centered around the focus of the students there, if they want to fight more than can switch schools, etc.. obviously a contract will hinder that, but only (hopefully) for a month or two, and in the mean time hopefully this person is getting some decent training in fundementals.

[Shaolin-Do]

Sifu Ryan.

When I signed up was cheaper that it is now for sure... :D

Now its... 75$ if you have direct deposit, 85$ if not. Thats not what I pay tho :D
For that you can go up to 10 times a week.

NP- We have contracts too... but they dont really mean anything.

Master schaeffer... Neurophysiologist. Extremely intelligent man. Very nice too, but kinda c o cky. Lots to be learned from him, he educated himself in all fields of MA. (business, spiritual, physical...ect)

[themeecer]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
it just gets frustrating when people can't make the commitment and don't always show up, now we have all these people in different spots and have to split up our lessons which makes much more work.
I HATE THIS!!!! I have to put up with this all the time. I'm teaching a double broadsword form right now and I have a couple of students that try to hit and miss. This form is too complicated for me to rush through and catch them up on what they missed. Anyone have solution ideas for this?

[Shaolin-Do]

They fall behind everyone, or make the extra effort to come in to saturday classes or the like. You get what you give, at least thats how it is here, as it should be.

My sifu has been encouraging me to host harder contact sparring outside of the kwoon, with people I feel comfortable training with. I wanted to host a higher speed chin na class at the kwoon, but insurance reasons and people who horse play prevent this, which is reasonable. So im probably going to start meeting people from the kwoon at the park to beat each other up, cause Id really like to see some advancement in SD around here... to say the least theres a lot of... err... "misconceptions" being held around here...

[norther practitioner]

Our school offers Tuesdays and Thursdays from 6 till around 8:30 for $30 a month.

Thats pretty cheap.
I'm not sure what we charge, but it goes down as your commitment goes up.. a year is say x, but a month by month would be (x/12)+$15 or something like that... We also do first month free, but after so many classes you should be in uniform etc....
We're about to test our first new crop... We're deciding how to do it, they will definitely be earning there new level, but we need to decide how to pay for whatever signifies there next level somehow. We also do a trial period type thing....

[norther practitioner]

Anyone have solution ideas for this?
makeup classes at there own dollar, or they just won't be ready to do that form if they are testing or whatever.. motivation...
You get what you give.. one of our mottos (the grass is always greener where you plant it).

[Shaolin-Do]

"the grass is always greener where you plant it"

You sure you dont smoke?

:D

[norther practitioner]

I don't remember.......:D

[MonkeyKing]

Originally posted by themeecer

I HATE THIS!!!! I have to put up with this all the time. I'm teaching a double broadsword form right now and I have a couple of students that try to hit and miss. This form is too complicated for me to rush through and catch them up on what they missed. Anyone have solution ideas for this?

Depending on how far ahead the 'regulars' are, and how much the hit and miss ppl 'hit' you could try letting them stay where they are for a good review, while the stragglers learn what they missed. Kung fu means time/effort, so it would be a good time for the regular students to practice and refine what they've learned, and let the ppl who missed catch up and still feel welcome at the class.

Also, a good thing would be to let the students that were there to get the material try their hand at teaching those ppl that missed out. Let them catch up the absentee's, this is good reenforcement too, since you do learn a lot just from teaching. Plus you can take the opportunity to teach your future assistants how to teach at this point. Or you can see who will make a good instructor in the future. And if you need to go help or instruct somewhere else in class this could free up some of your time.

[MonkeyKing]

I know that at different times in my training I've had to miss once or twice, and sometimes for months. I'm just glad that everytime I returned to my training there were good instructors there who understood and were able and willing to get me back up to speed on the things that I've missed. As a result I feel like I should pass this same understanding on to those ppl that can't always be there, whether they be a raging teen, or the business man that has to leave for work. Or even the guy that can't always afford class and has to take a break for financial reasons, as long as their heart is in the training, I appreciate all students that put forth the effort to better themselves through martial art training.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MonkeyKing
As a result I feel like I should pass this same understanding on to those ppl that can't always be there, whether they be a raging teen, or the business man that has to leave for work. Or even the guy that can't always afford class and has to take a break for financial reasons, as long as their heart is in the training, I appreciate all students that put forth the effort to better themselves through martial art training.

I like the idea of letting the others teach them .. I think I am going to start doing this. Thanks. My problem is that I have some that miss every other week. That just runs through me. I have went through all the stages you have mentioned, raging teen through businessman out of town and I can count the times I missed for several years on one hand. And we have never turned a student away that couldn't afford it. It comes back to commitment level. The ones that aren't committed are just customers, I don't even consider them students yet.

[MonkeyKing]

Commitment, and something else that I've seen happen before is whether or not the students feel like they're getting quality instruction. Sometimes we have students hit and miss that are committed, but what happens is they don't always like the instructor. That's something else that we all should be doing on a regular basis too, is evaluating ourselves to make sure that our students are receptive to what we have to teach.

If no one likes you as an instructor it's hard to retain good students. After reading some of your posts on this forum, it's plain that your very opinionated and aggresive with that opinion. If your this aggresive in your instruction maybe your turning some 'customer's off to what you have to teach. They can 'sense' the fact that you hate their lack of committment and hit/miss attendance. I'm not trying to be flaming or critical, but constructive criticism does help sometimes, and this is just my observation based on what you've presented here. So that might be something else to consider, if your having attendance problems, try listening to what your students have to say about your instruction. Ask them for a critique of all instructors at your school and submit them anonymously, that way you allow them to express their feelings without putting them on the spot. AND this is a great way to get into their heads and find out what they want that you may not be providing.

This is some of the things we've done at our school, and it's really helped get some word of mouth going about how approachable and flexible we are as a school by adapting to the learning curve of various students. Our 'regular' attendance has been much better, and our committment level from our students has doubled, because they now see us as committed to THEIR training. To quote someone I don't know, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." About their goals.

[norther practitioner]

letting the others teach them

That would be me at my school....

We are starting everything hard core again in September, summer is a hard time to get started here, everyone is into the outdoors thing (myself included). I've learned so much more about detail recently (especially concidering I haven't taken a day off in a few weeks). We are trying to discourage stragglers, however we do a lot of comprimise to keep the school "up and running" so to speak...

[Shaolin-Do]

"since you do learn a lot just from teaching. "

You learn immensely from teaching.
Used to teach elemetary school music, teaches you about yourself and what you are doing.
Good suggestions MonkeyKing.

Our kwoon also has students teach, and for the most part it has done very well. Sifu sometimes has to fine tune what has been taught, but those who help instruct are learning for themselves as well.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MonkeyKing
Commitment, and something else that I've seen happen before is whether or not the students feel like they're getting quality instruction. Sometimes we have students hit and miss that are committed, but what happens is they don't always like the instructor. That's something else that we all should be doing on a regular basis too, is evaluating ourselves to make sure that our students are receptive to what we have to teach.

If no one likes you as an instructor it's hard to retain good students. After reading some of your posts on this forum, it's plain that your very opinionated and aggresive with that opinion. If your this aggresive in your instruction maybe your turning some 'customer's off to what you have to teach. They can 'sense' the fact that you hate their lack of committment and hit/miss attendance. I'm not trying to be flaming or critical, but constructive criticism does help sometimes, and this is just my observation based on what you've presented here. So that might be something else to consider, if your having attendance problems, try listening to what your students have to say about your instruction. Ask them for a critique of all instructors at your school and submit them anonymously, that way you allow them to express their feelings without putting them on the spot. AND this is a great way to get into their heads and find out what they want that you may not be providing.

This is some of the things we've done at our school, and it's really helped get some word of mouth going about how approachable and flexible we are as a school by adapting to the learning curve of various students. Our 'regular' attendance has been much better, and our committment level from our students has doubled, because they now see us as committed to THEIR training. To quote someone I don't know, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." About their goals.

I appreciate your constructive criticism. I understand what you are saying, but I don't think this is the problem here. I pride myself at making people feel good about themselves under my instruction. I praise any small improvement I see them make, and I do it in front of others. On the other hand, I don't sugar coat it. If I see something that needs fixed I tell them so. But I make a point to explain why I am correcting them. I know they are a good martial artist and that they want to be doing things correctly. And that they will make a fine instructor some day and I know that they want the knowledge they are passing on to be accurate. I am familiar with your quote. I'm sure I have read it in the numerous books on leadership and business, the best being "How to Win Friends and Influence People."