IS your SLT as good as Basic Taiji?

[Phenix]

A great article about CXW
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=380





"Yundong Guilu"
Chen Xiaowang calls this the "Yundong Guilu" (the Principle of Movements) and expresses it as:
Yi dantien wei hai xin.
Yi dong quan shen bi dong.
Jie jie guan chuan.
Yi qi guan tong.
Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion
Once a part moves, the whole body moves
Joint by joint energy threads through
Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action


is a good basic summary.




How do you comprehend these 4 keys?
What do you think? do your SLT/SNT training cover all these points above?

If yes, do you clamp your knee and elbow with body tensingly hold ?
If yes, do you raise your Tahn sau with legs floating and body is scatering into many pieces?

[Phil Redmond]

Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion

"Every movement begins at the waist. Even the blinking of an eye." ;)

Once a part moves, the whole body moves
Joint by joint energy threads through
Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

"Body unity"
is a good basic summary.
"Yup"


How do you comprehend these 4 keys?
What do you think? do your SLT/SNT training cover all these points above?

"With Chan Ga TCC"


If yes, do you clamp your knee and elbow with body tensingly hold ?
If yes, do you raise your Tahn sau with legs floating and body is scatering into many pieces?

"No to both"
But I will confer with my TCC teacher Stephen Chao who is a student of Ma Hong.

[Phenix]

Phil,

Thanks for sharing. So you also study Chen TC ?

[yuanfen]

Hi Hendrik, Phil and list-
The 4 summary principles summarized by CXW are superb, meaningful and important to long term martial development, even though CXW is the major standard bearer of Chen taiji. The principles are not limited to taiji, though some taiji stylists specially in the US assume that other styles dont follow those principles. The principles are "natural"- top flight Chen stylists
understand them but the average taiji folks may just verbally repeat them without understanding them.
In wing chun - proper slt alignment assures the dantien's place
in the the central axis. In kundalini yoga- it is the manipuram chakra- an important nexus for energy control.
The principles can inform different stances- chen's lao jia startup,
wing chun's slt. But the person doing the correction have to know what they are doing. The differences in chen and wc knee positions mean that the kua and the pelvis alignments will have some differences.
Minimizing tensing is important IMO in the journey in both arts.
You find that some top flight karate masters (kanazawa etc)
have gravitated to tachi in order to become softer in their motions.
If wc folks stay tense- good external stylists from muay thai ,
oyama's karate, and punchers can break them.

joy

[Phenix]

Joy,

Great post thanks! yup!


Does anyone wants to share about in detail the implementation of CXW's 4 points in SLT traing?

[Phil Redmond]

Hendrik

Phil, Thanks for sharing. So you also study Chen TC ?
Yes, but I'm a complete beginner. Luckily the Sifu and I have become friends and he's really helpful. I didn't know who his teacher, Ma Hong was until I saw his web site. I think I can use the softer more fluid training he's giving me as I am getting older.
Phil

[Phenix]

Phil,

Great!

I have never studied it but my aunt is related to CXW's disciple decade ago. So I have chance to see what they are doing. Great art.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik and Phil-

Chen Xiao Wang is the standard bearer of the Chen family
and is in the 19th generation.

CXW first started learning from his father then an uncle.
Together with Chen Zhenglei, Chen Dewang, Zhu Tian Cai, and Chen Lizhou inChen village from Chen Zhaokui.

Ma Hong learned from Chen Zhaokui later in Zhengzhou. But they are all impressive.

CXW's second son is 20th generation master. CXW's younger brother still teaches in Chen village where he also teaches CXW's youngest son who apprently is very talented.

The survival of the martial aspects of chen style in chen village
in spite of many upheavals including the cultural revolution is quite a story.

BTW- on the Shaolin forum here at kf0-- see the thread with key words
"political correctness" started witha long aricle by David Ross-
who basically laughs at claimed "Shaolin" connections by many styles.Read and thonk for yourself.

Since moving to Australia CXW has been touring the US about once a year. Fen Zhi Quan , CXW's senior has also visted SF but is
now retired from teaching and now more interested in the health aspects of the art.

Ip Man's migration to Macao and HK avoided modifications of martial content in his wing chun which many styles on the mainland had to undergo.
WC is a superb fighting art though it can be used for health and other things as well. Good wc does not contradict the nature based principles of Chen- though the structures and shapes
are quite different. There is yin/yang and soft/hard balancing in good wc too.

[Phenix]

Joy,

Thanks.
Have seen some of friend's stuffs. and recent article of CXW.
IMHO, I am convinced that there are more keys which CXW didn't reveal to public.
Expecially about fajing such as the source of the Jing and the target handling.
For example. if one looks at Chen Ching's reel silk pictures in his book. There is a "heart" there.

Thus, " I" have heard, there are two location which were called the source of Jing. one is somewhere in the upper body. and the 2nd is somewhere in the hand. The upper boddy one can be link with Dandien.. usual stuffs. but it is late to issue and needs big movements.
As for the source in the hand is the quick one and related to small circle turn into no cycle. In real life it is too late to reel appearance "reel silk" , shift body weight for netralization and then issue.... or side step.... with the upper body Jing Source activation. Yes, even with following all CXW's 4 sentence. Those are good only for the form and preparation demo or friendly push hand..... IMHO

Sure, SLT is related to the second jing source ultimately, ofcorse :D. (sure sure, always says our own stuffs has it too) where no appearance shift will seen when one issuing and can have multi-ple fajing and probing in no time.... The issue is that without real carefull understanding one cannot activate this things.... so one stuck and SLT died.

Well, all is "Thus as I have heard". I might be dreaming. IMHO

[yuanfen]

Joy,

IMHO, I am convinced that there are more keys which CXW didn't reveal to public.

((Of course not. Not a matter of secret but in public -- why throw
pearls...))

Expecially about fajing such as the source of the Jing and the target handling.

((CXW can issue from anywhere. Targets come naturally with ting jing and deep knowledge of meridians and points. Some stupid guy jumped him from the back ina demo in Europe- he got a chen elbow and his heart rhythm went crazy-needed emergency care))))

For example. if one looks at Chen Ching's reel silk pictures in his book. There is a "heart" there.

((A chakra there. Chen man ching(?) is not one of my favorites))

Thus, " I" have heard, there are two location which were called the source of Jing. one is somewhere in the upper body. and the 2nd is somewhere in the hand. The upper boddy one can be link with Dandien.. usual stuffs. but it is late to issue and needs big movements.

(Enough reeling- you can release from any part of the spring.
Enough chum kiu and biu jee- meet at the same crossing))

As for the source in the hand is the quick one and related to small circle turn into no cycle. In real life it is too late to reel appearance "reel silk" , shift body weight for netralization and then issue.... or side step.... with the upper body Jing Source activation.
((Yes- in good wc too movements become smaller and practcally imperceptible))

Yes, even with following all CXW's 4 sentence. Those are good only for the form and preparation demo or friendly push hand..... IMHO

((A journey of a thousand miles begins....))

Sure, SLT is related to the second jing source ultimately, ofcorse . (sure sure, always says our own stuffs has it too) where no appearance shift will seen when one issuing and can have multi-ple fajing and probing in no time.... The issue is that without real carefull understanding one cannot activate this things.... so one stuck and SLT died.

((Absolutely- the average taichi guy waves their hands and the average wc guy chain punches or "spars".))

Well, all is "Thus as I have heard". I might be dreaming. IMHO

((Shadows. No permanent entities))

[Phenix]

((A chakra there. Chen man ching(?) is not one of my favorites))-J

Not Chen Man Ching. But Chen Ching the ancestor of CXW who wrote a book and all the reel silk. --HS



(Enough reeling- you can release from any part of the spring.
Enough chum kiu and biu jee- meet at the same crossing))

IMHO, there is reeling release which is slow..... HS



((Absolutely- the average taichi guy waves their hands and the average wc guy chain punches or "spars".)) ---J

True. because reeling is slow. --HS

[PaulH]

With all due respects to Tai Chi, I prefer good 'ole boxing anyday.
WC is like Muhamad Ali to Sonny Liston of Tai Chi. From my limited ignorant and full of "self" opinion, WC under Bruce and WSL "shook up the world." Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
With all due respects to Tai Chi, I prefer good 'ole boxing anyday.
WC is like Muhamad Ali to Sonny Liston of Tai Chi. From my limited ignorant and full of "self" opinion, WC under Bruce and WSL "shook up the world." Ha! Ha!

Regards,


Paul,

IMHO,
No offence. Not out of disrespect.

Certainly WSL is great. But, do you know WSL was carried out of the Chinese Martial art Tournament in Taiwan?

As for Chen Fake.... those Chen hard liner Martial artist in Beijing is not sissy boy. Anyone has touch hand with the Chen family's fighters knows how sharp and sponatnoues is thier jing without even roll....

Cheng MAn-Ching defeat the foreign boxer in the embassy...
Wang Xian-Chai and Sun Lu Tang defeat Japanese fighters at old age.
Wang Tie with White Crane of Fujian.

So, every style has its strenght and weakness.

IMHO, as it was said, " win or lose is small matter. But, know oneself and know others.."

A question is does WCK has the vehicle to cultivate the sharp and spontaneous Jing? and how far this type of WCK sharp and spontaneous Jing will achive. If one's SLT/SNT doesnt par with Taiji's basic training such as CXW's. Then one's WCK is in trouble in a long run. IMHO.

Nasty might win? sure, but if we read about the incident of Yang family with people who play nasty. Nasty doesn't always work against advance people.


Just some think out loud two cents.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

No offense taken, even Wong admitted that he can be downed (just like M. Ali). Like any "bad" boy to the bones , he loved fightings and won't back down from the thrills of beimo. While I don't know the whole detail, I suspect that it was this very indomitable spirit that they had to carry him in stretch to pull him away from that Taiwanese tournament.

Fighters are fighters. The strongest in mind and spirit often will be the victor in the end regardless of their martial art style. Perhaps Joe Frazer would have won in a real fight over Ali if they met each other at some dark alley...

Regards,

[Phenix]

Pual,

Great.

In Leung Jan's time and my ancestor Cho Soon Time, dead waver has to be signed. Even today's Kyokusin tournament one sign accident and dead waver since one doesnt wear guard....

IMHO, if MA cannot use for real fight. Then, there is not real MA.
And in the real life, one has to consider how to tan those Baseball bat breaking round horse kick of Kyokushin and skull shatering elbow of Muay thai......

Yang family and Chen family has work as body guard of the loyar and transportation. Wang Xian-Chai was hire by warlord. The Ta Shen Pih Kau's Ko Xi was a guard for transport precious stuffs..... (which is no accident his grand grand student such as Chen KuanTai win the Lui Toi match in SEA)..... Those are real guys who live thier life in the edge of razor.... IMHO, these people and thier decendent needs to be taken seriously.

What does SLT offer? That is the question. Just an opinion.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

This is interesting question of yours. "A question is does WCK has the vehicle to cultivate the sharp and spontaneous Jing? and how far this type of WCK sharp and spontaneous Jing will achive. "

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam! it hits! But I'm curious to hear of your view on the SLT and how it fits to this end.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam! it hits! But I'm curious to hear of your view on the SLT and how it fits to this end.

Regards,


I hope that the body know best and Chan and Mushahi and M Ali.



See, Baam and do it is a great talk. However, without the core technology and the evolving technology and the sweat and blood training. IT doesn't work. How many time M Ali has to be coach and training and correct in the training? how many times Mushashi has to draw his sword and make correction....
Ask oneself, can one command one's mind to come back to the instant and calm in an instant? if without those capability. the rest is dreaming.

Not even it doesn't work it ruin one's body. clamping the elbow will cause chest problem in a long run. clamping knee will cause knee problem in a long run. Clamping elbow, tense chest, force breathing with chest might likely to cause heart disease and hypertension with heart papiltation and short temper. There is no accident that some WCK people die young with heart or liver problem or short temper....

In reality, TaijI has 64 type of Jing issues methods and drill.
Emei has 36 types of method of Jing. not to mention the path of of Jin travel. Without those method, training can be redesign of wheel. or dreaming for money to come down from sky while not working to earn the money.

Chan has the "body" "wu Ji" is the body beyong Ying and Yang.
However, when it gets into application. it is in the domain of Ying and Yang. thus, all medirian.... technologies goes.


Certainly, people might think Chan or Dao wisdom talk is the key to everything. NO it is not.
Those are just the Body or Tee. the implementation is the other part of reality. Not to mention most Chan or Dao talks are just smart talk with not content. the question ultimately is does one has it? Does one even understand and can implement what CXW present? when one totally implement what CXW present how does it feels interm of body movement and breathing? If one has a higher mastering in SLT CK BJ then CXW's writing one should be able to realized them, since those are basic. if not then the reality is not there yet. IMHO.
just my two cents.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,


"without the core technology and the evolving technology. IT is doesn't work.
Ask oneself, can one command one's mind to come back to the instant and calm in an instant? if without those capability. the rest is dreaming."

To come back and be calm in an instant is more of a mind training to me. Can I keep and let go of his force when it is the moment and with proper and appropriate means? One can wrestle with this problem learning how to control his emotions and thoughts better to capture his center as well as how to feel the other's positions, where he is empty, etc, in the enviroment of Chi Sau. Perhaps Chi Sau is practical Chan training in disguise! As I sense that this won't cut it from your point of view, I'll hold my peace and let you speak more on this core technologies in SLT.

I note that you edited your previous post regarding M. Ali and Mushashi's training. It is unsettling still that they can achieve such great skills without training in specific knowledges that you spoke of. If there is any formula, it is blood, sweat, training hard and smart toward your goal whatever your heart desires.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam!
---------------------------------------------------------
((Wow! The details were important to Ali and Musashi- you have to tatse the bitter first. Ali had an "exhibition" match with Lyle Alzado of the Oakland Raiders in their glory days... and Alzado was one steroid driven unholy terror on and off the field. In an interview a sports journalist asked Ali if he was concerned about Alzado's physical prowess.
Paraphrasing- Ali replied-Not really--- it takes a long time to develop a good jab- and getting past a good one isnt easy.

But boxing is really an external sport- the sun sets quite early
and Ali is not throwing too many jabs these days..

Have you read Musashi carefully? The last and fifth ring in the book of five rings is nothingness! "Your everyday practice, as
it accumulates, will eventually reveal true no-thing-ness to you as the 'spirit of the thing itself'."

Misquoting Picasso...mediocre artists borrow- great artists steal-
so stealing Paul H's style- an approrpiate verse for many forum discussions..

'Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went

With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow;
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd-
I came like water, and like Wind I go

Omar Khayyam.))

[Phenix]

Paul,




To come back and be calm in an instant is more of a mind training to me. ---P

Yes and no. if you heart still keep palpitate your mind can wish what it wants. --HS

Can I keep and let go of his force when it is the moment and with proper and appropriate means? One can wrestle with this problem learning how to control his emotions and thoughts better to capture his center as well as how to feel the other's positions, where he is empty, etc, in the enviroment of Chi Sau. --- P

Try it to see if that works? :D




Perhaps Chi Sau is practical Chan training in disguise! As I sense that this won't cut it from your point of view, I'll hold my peace and let you speak more on this core technologies in SLT. -P

One needs to see the whole picture. otherwise, things will go extreme. Peace or not reality is reality.

I was chatting with a senior WCK master months ago and he told me Hendrik you face still show when you fajing. That is how far people will notice...... So heaven is vast and earth is wide.. sea is deep... there are lots of things needs to be learn..... there are plenty of advance people out there. Those ancient ancestors are not writing things down for leisure :D--HS


I note that you edited your previous post regarding M. Ali and Mushashi's training. --P

yes. I want to stress the important of technics and don't want people to mistaken that training is not important.
handling of key technology does make a different between two diligent trainers. --HS


It is unsettling still that they can achieve such great skills without training in specific knowledges that you spoke of. If there is any formula, it is blood, sweat, training hard and smart toward your goal whatever your heart desires. --P

There is plenty of people works hard and harder then me but it doesn't means they all will become millionaires. ... making a mouse trap the same way again and again and the price drop more and more... who doesn't know how to make a mouse trap?.---- a silicon valley saying.

[Phenix]

.

Have you read Musashi carefully? The last and fifth ring in the book of five rings is nothingness! "Your everyday practice, as
it accumulates, will eventually reveal true no-thing-ness to you as the 'spirit of the thing itself' ---Joy

GREAT!
yes agree.
Nothing comes easy. if those word of CXW passing some one's ears similar to wind. That is thier great lost.

Check one's thigh if they clamp to the lower part of the abdoment or relax fluidly. IF it clamp tigh then the YJKYM is not relax. and see the Huan Tiau point... is it suck in ...... all this technics.
after saying it a 10 year old can do it. without saying it, a 80 years old might not know it even if one stand there 2 hours aday.

[PaulH]

Joy and Hendrik,

Okay. Since you two are colluded to squash my petty arguments, and Ernie is somewhere having a perilous fun with his Whitewater, I just bow now to the inevitable defeat from your superiour verbal powers. "I came like water, and like Wind I go."

I'll be back when I am armed with better implementation tools though! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Joy and Hendrik,

Okay. Since you two are colluded to squash my petty arguments, and Ernie is somewhere having a perilous fun with his Whitewater, I just bow now to the inevitable defeat from your superiour verbal powers. "I came like water, and like Wind I go."

I'll be back when I am armed with better implementation tools though! Ha! Ha!

Regards,


Pual,

IMHO,
Why is the Chinese has different type of Kung. Such as the Varja palm Kung, The tiger steps Kung, The Expell Mountain Palm Kung.... The great power eagle claw Kung, The fire dragon Kung....

The letter Kung means work and the character is made up of the letter force and letter task. So, Kung is a repeatable drill training. As for the name Varja palm or Expell Mountain Palm, even they are in the same palm catagories there are different technics for cultivation and thus will yield a different type of power and potential. Thus, every type of art has its "technics" not just "work" but has to come with "what and how then work on it."

As it said, Training in routine but not Kung until old age is totally wasted.

Certainly, you are open to believe what you want to believe about the "verbal power" :D.

But a serious question remain what kind of "kung" one is cultivating or just doing SLT routine. Sure one can always argue about just punching the sand bag.... but the question is : is that accord to the SLT's way of issueing Jing?

[PaulH]

Okay. You tell me how does one know he is doing WCK way of jing or not? Where would be the basis of such comparisons in the SLT?


Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
I was chatting with a senior WCK master months ago and he told me Hendrik you face still show when you fajing. --HS

That must be your "Fa Daan" face showing :D


Seems like the thread is going circles, so let me throw in a few BS (and then run before Hendrik goes FaJing on me).

>>Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion

Many of our movements in SNT resemble circles, where DT can be the center of the circles or at a point along the circumference. For WC support center, call 1-888-DAN-TIEN :D

>>Once a part moves, the whole body moves

well, even when the hand moves a little, the body subconsciously adjusts itself due to COG changes, even very little. So I guess nobody can freeze solid when doing hand techniques.

>>Joint by joint energy threads through

no forearm muscle used. It goes by shoulder joint steering elbow, elbow joint steering forearm. One joint pushing another....

>>Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

that happens after we punch in the air for an hour straight non-stop, after all the impedding muscles got exhausted ;).

[Phenix]

YY,

Thanks for the help to explain.



Ya, people even check facial to see how tense/fluence one is.....
There are lots of deep stuffs in the world alots people just don't talk about it.

[PaulH]

I'm a meat and potato guy, so I too will give my uncanned version of beef here.

Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion

I don't know about its heart, but for sheer power it comes mostly from the lower back where resides our friend "Dan". It is the hub or nexus point of upper and lower bodies and their energies anyway.

>>Once a part moves, the whole body moves

It depends on whether you want to link that part to the rest of the body. This is how you can hit nontelegraphically. A simple test - move your finger and see how your body move with it.

>>Joint by joint energy threads through

Remind me of the Tai Chi thread of pearls .

>>Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

Provided that you know how to thread its ways through the pearls, I think?

[yuanfen]

Paul H. sez:

I'm a meat and potato guy, so I too will give my uncanned version of beef here
-----------------------------------------------
Holy Cow!

[PaulH]

Joy,

Am I supposed to say "How?" - Honest cowboy to an honest injun. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

How now holy cow!
(2nd grade reader)

hao kola
(ist grade dakota)

[PaulH]

Just call me Paul! Ha! Ha!

[yuanfen]

That's my number one son's name too!

[Phenix]

Heaven outside heaven there is no ending
Body within bodies the diagnosis and action are clear
The qi of sword similar to rainbow beyond physical
return to "not two" just the way it is.

repeatly calling (MIss) "Little Jade" but there is no occasion.
Just hope that person recognizes the "voice". --- a chan poem




YY Joy, the ancient chinese like to name the teenage girl "little jade"? we need to change that to Hsu Chi or Diaz...:D
Now adays is easier to recognizes the voice. Just look at the caller-ID before answer the cellphone. :D


"I don't want clever conversation
I never want to work that hard
I just want someone that I can talk to
I want you just the way you are." ---Billy Joe, Just the way you are.

Sound like a 16 years old?





Looks like some body parts or bodies..... :D

[KingMonkey]

Did you take up taiji purely out of interest or did you hope it would help your WC? If so what aspects were you hoping it would help and have you noticed any results ?

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

Being the #1 son of the famous Detective Chan, I must ask whose chinese body this belongs to? It couldn't be that of Ms. Wing Chun for she is more Yim and not Yang. And those mysterious scarlet threads around arms and legs...What could this be, Pop? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by PaulH
And those mysterious scarlet threads around arms and legs...What could this be, Pop? Ha! Ha!


that's Chen TC silk reeling diagram.

[PaulH]

Thanks, YY. Do you or Hendrik have the diagrams of WC Jing? I feel mysterious power spark when I do the biu, but never quite figure out where it comes from. All of these diagrams remind me of Chin Yung's popular KF novels. Some bumbling idiots look at the mysterious diagrams and suddenly divine the elusive secrets while some KF masters had the book and could not make head or tail out of its meanings. Here Gin to idiocy!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


that's Chen TC silk reeling diagram.


The Jing body of a particular move....

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Thanks, YY. Do you or Hendrik have the diagrams of WC Jing? I feel mysterious power spark when I do the biu, but never quite figure out where it comes from. All of these diagrams remind me of Chin Yung's popular KF novels. Some bumbling idiots look at the mysterious diagrams and suddenly divine the elusive secrets while some KF masters had the book and could not make head or tail out of its meanings. Here Gin to idiocy!

Regards,

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[PaulH]

More positive proofs that we are androids all along! Actually something did click on my robotic head. If jing could be released prominently at fingertips then surely it can be refocused to be released anywhere along its ging body path. Is this the far jing and short jing that we were talking on the previous body thread?

Regards,

[PaulH]

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties. -Francis Bacon, Advancement of Learning

This thread seems to end with uncertainties, but when will certainty begin? I'm still eagerly waiting for its coming.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

A punch can clear up many uncertainties-
but may create wobbling new ones both for the puncher and the punched..

[PaulH]

The subject is interesting, but I fear it too will be just another riddle for the amusement of the wise. Like all wise owls they become more silent and lonely as the world passes them by. I would rather that they build bridges and not walls.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi Pual,

Great Wall,
Some see wall,
Some search for gate,
Some never know the different between in or outside the wall.
Some doesn't see a wall.

For the see wall, wait until they searh for gate.
For the search for gate, wait until they give up looking for the type of gate they expect.
For the never know the different, let them peacefully live where they are.
what Gengiskhan see?
No wall but China.



The book of Chen Pin-San sit there until Tang Hao bought it so that the kids has money for his burrier..... NOw a days only 3 usdollar to buy a book of Chen Pin-San's life research. But then how many appreciate them? how many understood them? how many doesn't see a different has it or not has it....
and the life goes on
and the saga continous.....
Write the book under everyone's eyes............
What do one see?
embrace the uncertainty.

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,

a great song...

"And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah
There will be an answer, let it be."

[Phenix]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Did you take up taiji purely out of interest or did you hope it would help your WC? If so what aspects were you hoping it would help and have you noticed any results ?


Silicon Valley law # 1, always check out your competitors technology.

Silicon Valley law # 2, de-cap it up and see what really inside the IC.

Silicon Valley law # 3, make use of whatever is great but not violating patent .

Silicon Valley law # 4, use the competitors technology to against themself by lowering the manufacturing cost. If Can't then contact them for join venture! :D

[yuanfen]

I do wing chun, I dont do taichi- not enough hours in the day.
But Iam curious about martial arts in general- so when i sense a good one -I spy:-

joy- up the wingchun mountain -surveying the scenery but not falling off the mountain.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

There has never been any real walls in Genghis Khan's empire building. He conquered the lands with ease. What one sees would depend on the helpful guide and his experience. Unfortunately the guests are led down more rabbit trails. I prefer that old trusted guide who can cut through the merry chases and lead me straight to the simple beauty of the scenery. While the chase after promising shadows could be worthwhile, it is too exhausting mentally and physically.

If a thing is simple, anyone even a child should be able to understand its nature readily. What I see so far is a very time-consuming and complicated learning process of the delicate intricacies of qi flow, ging flow, mind, breathing, and physical body. How will this help a person to understand SLT or to appreciate the sparking freshness of its springwater? If it should become less into nothingness as Joy said earlier, are we going the hard and perilous way to the mountaintop? Is real WC mostly for the chosen few - the brightest and best and so far from the common crowd?

Regards,

[Phenix]

Paul,

"If a thing is simple, anyone even a child should be able to understand its nature readily. What I see so far is a very time-consuming and complicated learning process of the delicate intricacies of qi flow, ging flow, mind, breathing, and physical body. How will this help a person to understand SLT or to appreciate the sparking freshness of its springwater?
If it should become less into nothingness as Joy said earlier, are we going the hard and perilous way to the mountaintop? "---Pual


How many years it takes CXW born from a Martial art family and in a martial art village and train hard to realize the 4 sentences he kindly present to the world?

How many people truely appreciate and understood his great present to all?
How many be able to understood What he means?
How many be able to do what he present
Without burning mid night candle for years and years?





We now see, what the ancient people gone through and recorded, doesnt that better then those who never even has a chance to read what happen in the past and still in try and erro because they don't read calssical chinese?

WCK looks simple. As it was said in the past " Yee Hok Nan Jeng" easly to learn and difficult to master. Without mastering every details how does one master such a deep art? and mastering means understand every details. No short cut. IMHO

Two weeks ago, Sifu Robert Chu and I had a great chat. He said" there is two type of peace when related to WCK, one is don't do WCK at all, another one is going through all the ups and downs, loops and hoops, and then finally reaches peace. " I think his words has alots of truth in it.



"Is real WC mostly for the chosen few - the brightest and best and so far from the common crowd? "---Pual

IMHO, I think have faith in WCK and willing to go through everything needed is the key. But then, I don't know what is Real WC.

[PaulH]

"Easy to learn, difficult to master."

Well, how about: " Learn the Easy, Master the difficult"
It could be just the way how one goes about looking at the perceived patterns. Surely there is always a shortcut for the master! Perhaps you know some shortcuts in the up and down of this long reeling silk thread...Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
"Easy to learn, difficult to master."

Well, how about: " Learn the Easy, Master the difficult"
It could be just the way how one goes about looking at the perceived patterns. Surely there is always a shortcut for the master! Perhaps you know some shortcuts in the up and down of this long reeling silk thread...Ha! Ha!

Regards,

If there is shortcut, which I wish also, then late, Cho Hung-Choy will not let someone wasting 2 decades of thier life to just understand SLT even with all the complete writing and private teaching.

I learn to be gradfull to know what CXW and his ancestors gone through even I don't know all the detail. But, I learn thier direction to hold a system for 19 generations (more then 19 now).
That direction alone worth millions.

As for the details, one has to eat one's food everyday. IMHO.

[yuanfen]

Paul H. sez:
There has never been any real walls in Genghis Khan's empire building.
((The Mongols in their heyday were amazing and brutal. They overran Europe and South Asia and were at the gates of Paris.
Japan was spared by luck as a "divine wind" destroyed the Mongol fleet.))

He conquered the lands with ease.

((Ease? An understatement. Lots of sacrifices, training and group discipline. They forged cooperation between bands and were ruthless with rivals and enemies. They were top flight wrestlers and changed Chinese and Indian wrestling. They were superb horsemen. Experts make the difficult look easy))

I prefer that old trusted guide who can cut through the merry chases and lead me straight to the simple beauty of the scenery. While the chase after promising shadows could be worthwhile, it is too exhausting mentally and physically.

((Excellence has its price. You have to read what CXW's daily routine was in his starting days. Master Ho Kam ming was closely associated with Ip Man from 55-56 till IM's death. Of those years
a little over seven years involved intense daily work under guidance- atleast 4 hours every day of the week. IM's direct tuition period was shorter but he had lots of time to develop his art before escaping from the PRC))

If a thing is simple, anyone even a child should be able to understand its nature readily.

((An exaggeration- unfortunately as luck will have it- millions of children the world over have arrested development-poverty, neglect-you name it)))

What I see so far is a very time-consuming and complicated learning process of the delicate intricacies of qi flow, ging flow, mind, breathing, and physical body.

((depends on what level of the art one wants to attain. There are wing chun people in Hong Kong who trauned only for matches and did well full contact matches in their time. Master Ho can vary the training for full contact matches and for learning the art.
Survival self defense, understanding principles and full contact fighting are quite different things in the wing chun cafetaria. I have had the sheer good fortune of running into a sifu(Fong) who has been and is good at all 3 areas.))

Is real WC mostly for the chosen few - the brightest and best and so far from the common crowd?

((Not chosen ...but kung fu specially wing chun was a matter of personal achievement. Interestingly the Taiwanese army used to- and perhaps- still does use TKD for their mass soldierly drills rather than kung fu. Makes sense- kiya!!!))))

((Too late for catching typos))

[Phenix]

Joy,

Great post!

When the foundation is not solid the result is very unstable....
As Lao Tze said, Big device is late to complete. A Vast " bow and Robe" which can cover a vast land indeed take long time to make.

a three diamension wave equations can not be solved with simple algebra. a new multidimentional wave equations always needs partial differential equation with atleast x,y, and z coordinate. and the tough part is the origin of the coordinate cannot be hold absolute because of ----no self abiding. so solve without solving. certain within uncertain....

without the philoshophica, there is no advance art.
formular is great until MS excel comes out.
and Art is just technics practiced so much that is has its own "soul". how to get there with short cut? how can one claim "formular, absolute origin based" teaching as advance?
Cant, the nature not alowed. And I don't want to lie.


The elevator to the top of mountain is not working. use the stone stair way. at least there is a stair. why complain, havent we see people has to climb to make new stair way from no where?

[PaulH]

Thanks, Joy and Hendrik. I enjoy very much your takes on the WC learning path or curve for the individual. I like to share my take on WC learning too. Hence I will borrow the voice of "the Prophet". He speaks very well for me.

On Teaching by Khalil Gibran
Then said a teacher, "Speak to us of Teaching."

And he said:

No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half asleep in the dawning of our knowledge.

The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness.

If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.

The astronomer may speak to you of his understanding of space, but he cannot give you his understanding.

The musician may sing to you of the rhythm which is in all space, but he cannot give you the ear which arrests the rhythm nor the voice that echoes it.

And he who is versed in the science of numbers can tell of the regions of weight and measure, but he cannot conduct you thither.

For the vision of one man lends not its wings to another man.

And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth.


On Self-Knowledge by Gilbran
And a man said, "Speak to us of Self-Knowledge."

And he answered, saying:

Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.

But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.

You would know in words that which you have always know in thought.

You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.

The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;

And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.

But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;

And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.

For self is a sea boundless and measureless.

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."

Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."

For the soul walks upon all paths.

The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.

The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.

Regards,

[old jong]

The harder and most resisting opponent is living inside all of us?...;)
(Just could'nt resist!);)

[PaulH]

Old Jong,

Of a truth, you are plain simple. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Now the questions remain,

for example:
1,TST talks about Lap nim what is that according to you?
2, Robert Chu published his structure tests. many talks about structure, what is structure according to you?
3, fajing, what is fa jing? how to do that?

Imho, I believe TST,Robert will be able to define to detail what they mean. But what is it for others? can one knows a process when one doesn't know how to describe it?





care to share?

[old jong]

Can a bird explain the laws of aerodinamics or the principles of lift?...There are things,only practice can develop. Some achieve them but can they really explain?...

(It feels strange being so serious!...Oups!...I think I feel a satori coming!...) ;) ;) :D :D

[PaulH]

Old Jong,

That's a good one, but Hendrik is right. Everyone can get away with answering the questions but the teachers. If you teach, you just have to know your subjects well in order to know how to relate to your students. Of course I'm exempted by nature.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Old jong sez-(It feels strange being so serious!...Oups!...I think I feel a satori coming!...)


old jong- you must have been in the water closet:-

[old jong]

I like Ho Kam Ming words: "If you practice right ,it will come naturally."

I think there are things out of reach of human consciousness or logic. They can be "explained " only by metaphors and the student is not garanteed to "see" the picture as the teacher.
This is why (IMHO) there are so many ways to achieve the same results in chikung or Yoga or painting or you get the idea?...

Joy...I have to go now!...;)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by old jong
Can a bird explain the laws of aerodinamics or the principles of lift?...There are things,only practice can develop. Some achieve them but can they really explain?...



too bad you are human but try to learn to fly! :D

See what Leonardo Da Vinci did
http://www.dyslexia.com/leonardo.htm

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Old Jong,

That's a good one, but Hendrik is right. Everyone can get away with answering the questions but the teachers. If you teach, you just have to know your subjects well in order to know how to relate to your students. Of course I'm exempted by nature.

Regards,

No one is exampted if one wants to know fajing. Then one has to master the process of fajing. ONe can answering the question in Cantonese or fujian or math or drawing or writing. But no examption... :(

[Phenix]

Originally posted by old jong
I like Ho Kam Ming words: "If you practice right ,it will come naturally."

I think there are things out of reach of human consciousness or logic. They can be "explained " only by metaphors and the student is not garanteed to "see" the picture as the teacher.
This is why (IMHO) there are so many ways to achieve the same results in chikung or Yoga or painting or you get the idea?...

Joy...I have to go now!...;)


Practice is Kung Fu but what kind of Kung Fu? There should be a name. And technics must come with that name. :D shao lin and Taiji kung fu are different. So "if" one practice the "correct technics belong to that style", it will come naturally." "if" not then garbage in garbage out. :D

As for trying to get general "so many ways to achieve the same results...." what is the different between a Chen taiji Side outward "block" and a karate side outward "block" ? :D

Honestly, IMHO, I think when people said "oh, there are so many ways to achieve the same results..." they are just giving face for those who don't know.;)

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

No excuses for me then. Joy, you go first and I will follow. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phenix



too bad you are human but try to learn to fly! :D

See what Leonardo Da Vinci did
http://www.dyslexia.com/leonardo.htm

I remember I must have read Jonathan Livingstone a hundred times (A long times ago)!...It still makes sense even if it smells "plagiat" a lot!...Anyway it's the ideas that really count. ;)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

No excuses for me then. Joy, you go first and I will follow. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Can't learn to swim without get wet and drink many mouth of water....:(

[PaulH]

As you insist, here is my unpublished theory of FaJing. Fa = release. Jing= power. The closest example to this is firing a gun. You line up the target to your gun's nose (lining up your body power points to the target) and pull the trigger (mind trigger or mental cataclyst that often associates with extraordinary power people possess in time of great stress) A great combusion takes place in the bullet chamber ( the internal body stuffs) propelling the bullet head and throws the empty shell backward (like push and pull action in lop da or arrow punching). My key is the mind trigger which causes that internal explosion to punch with penetration.

Regards,

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phenix


As for trying to get general "so many ways to achieve the same results...." what is the different between a Chen taiji Side outward "block" and a karate side outward "block" ? :D

Honestly, IMHO, I think when people said "oh, there are so many ways to achieve the same results..." they are just giving face for those who don't know.;)

There are a few "hard" karateist who have achieve a better "internal whatever we call it" than many Internal masters. Their only explanation is :Hard work!...We don't know how we walk, but we do!...Try to explain the complex dynamics of the simple act of walking...

IMHO,I think that those who say "My way is the only one"...Are just giving a face to themselves. ;)
Anyway I don't know!...

[Phenix]

Paul,

Now we all can steal your secret from you :D


As you insist, here is my unpublished theory of FaJing. Fa = release. Jing= power. ---P

Ok

The closest example to this is firing a gun. You line up the target to your gun's nose (lining up your body power points to the target) and pull the trigger (mind trigger or mental cataclyst that often associates with extraordinary power people possess in time of great stress) ---P

IMHO, I think, To the contrary, when fajing people is not suppose to be stress. Stress then one blink ;)



A great combusion takes place in the bullet chamber ( the internal body stuffs) propelling the bullet head and throws the empty shell backward (like push and pull action in lop da or arrow punching). ---P


IMHO, there are jing to propelling one back, to propell opponent, to let the opponent absorb all...... similar to physics collosion study, elastic , non elastic.....

But then, still what generate the power? what did the acceleration? what track the power travel? What is the trajectory?..... lots and lots..... :D

As for the Internal body stuffs, there is no internal or external, force cannot come from just "think". we all live under the law of center gravity .... all physics..... So, no internal stuffs. IMHO.


My key is the mind trigger which causes that internal explosion to punch with penetration. --P


What does mind trigger? what causes the internal explosion? what explode? if it is explode then it will be slow between one explosion and the next one.......:D


You know, IMHO, I believe Technics are very engineering. The way to bring a good technology into the world is by beable to dream and works out all the details. As for the art side, well, first the technology then art.

Now, Joy might like to model his technology with yoga and kundalini. and express all the details in sanskrit and that is great. Even the spelling of Tan Sau doesn't has to be Tahn sau. or vice versa..... be creative and works out the details.

Satory? that too is engineering. the anological bottom line is just to make the ocean which mistakenly attach to a water bubble and thinking that is HIM or "I" to realize that is a part of the ocean's transformation which is impermanent but not the ocean. and after Satori the real learning begin........ learn how to be an ocean. :D.

Well, "I" might be the biggest Evil DEMON or ANTI-CHAN of all similar to count Dracula. "I" live at the time Damo create Shao LIn and keep tracking it...... "I' have seen Darling :D the evil twin of Damo so don't get con by me. He He He He

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

A theory is by nature full of uncertainties. I will revise it once I get your certainties. What is fa jing to you?

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

A theory is by nature full of uncertainties. I will revise it once I get your certainties. What is fa jing to you?

Regards,

Make the baby first before naming it.
bring it to the world first before writing theory...so decide who is the mother Diaz? Hsuchi? ;D

IMHO, for me,
Yee moves shen is there....
Yee to qi to transporting the physical body spontaneously.
The root is feet, issue is thigh, control with waist, taking shape at "fingers".......

similar to the one in the Cin Yong Novel. "I" copy from there :D

YY, have you watched the new MainLand china, Seh Diu tv soap?
I like the Miu Chiu Fong style, the soft nine yin pure sutra kungfu, the back ground of the actress is the top peacok dancer of China. That is WC. hahaha

I got a picture of her here

[old jong]

Body unity,using the bones.The result of countless and correct repetitions of a simple gesture.

(Correct); Depending on the method of course!...;)




But you can still use the force!...:D

[Phenix]

YY, Here

[Phenix]

Originally posted by old jong



IMHO,I think that those who say "My way is the only one"...Are just giving a face to themselves. ;)


disagree,
that is marketing. :D


Their only explanation is :Hard work!...We don't know how we walk, but we do!...Try to explain the complex dynamics of the simple act of walking... ---OJ


Goju is different to Kyokushin
Cat is different to Oyama
and at the end Kyokushin adapt Thai kicks... so some knows how to walk and win in Bangkok. :D

Nothing accident, law of cause and effect rule. Even to the Satori one. He must eat and drink to be alive as humanbeing.

[PaulH]

What do you call the kind of ging that can be generated at will without body structure? I once sat on a sofa seat, and this brother, who was sitting next to me, just tapped on my right shoulder throwing me off the couch. It hurted too!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you call the kind of ging that can be generated at will without body structure? I once sat on a sofa seat and this brother who was next to me just tapped on my right shoulder and threw me off the couch. It hurted too!

Regards,


No body structure? Yes, it does.

Who said body structure has to be standing there clamping the poor goat and looks like sxx maniac tucking the hip forward? :D

[old jong]

I always keep a goat handy in case I need to produce some Jing!...The problem is the odor!...My wife hates it!...;)

[old jong]

But it is more easier to concele than a horse!...How could I perform a horse stance in my little living room?...;)

[PaulH]

True enough, Hendrik! He did have a natural body structure when he jing me. He did not know any internal stuffs, and his power is impressive enough that makes me wonder if Mushashi is right all along "The Spirit of things will reveal itself to you." How did he achieve such jing w/o any of your detailed knowledges then?

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
YY, have you watched the new MainLand china, Seh Diu tv soap?
I like the Miu Chiu Fong style, the soft nine yin pure sutra kungfu, the back ground of the actress is the top peacok dancer of China. That is WC. hahaha


I only have the "Chor Lau Huan 2001" on Chinese TV lately, may be I shall go check my TV guide and see where Seh Diu is...... ;)

I am getting a little dizzy reading you guys' fajing posts, must be that "Mai Won Da Fatt" from 9 Yin Merdian Sutra :D

Is WC FaJing digital? or analog?

For me, digital is like "Boom", the explosion happens somewhere and the momentum travels and dissipates. Once an explosive pulse is generated, there has to be time to save up energy for the next one.

Analog is like a continuous spinning of the mass, it crushes everything in its way. One crushing jing ends with another jing from a different angle. There is no beginning and end.

I am getting more dizzy.... :confused:

[dfl]

Originally posted by yylee


I only have the "Chor Lau Huan 2001" on Chinese TV lately,
Ugh!


may be I shall go check my TV guide and see where Seh Diu is...... ;)

Last I checked the old one with Wong Yat Wah (ca. 1984?) is still running on Saturdays.

[dfl]

Originally posted by Phenix

YY, have you watched the new MainLand china, Seh Diu tv soap?
I like the Miu Chiu Fong style, the soft nine yin pure sutra kungfu, the back ground of the actress is the top peacok dancer of China. That is WC. hahaha

ps, watch out for that gau yum ba gwuk jow!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
True enough, Hendrik! He did have a natural body structure when he jing me. .......................e such jing w/o any of your detailed knowledges then?

Regards,

Sure, everyone can be Mushashi.... Edison, Bruce Lee,...... :D

What is the value of the great jing which is non repeatable?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by dfl


ps, watch out for that gau yum ba gwuk jow!

Now I undestood why Dong Cheah don't bother to talk to people :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee




I am getting a little dizzy reading you guys' fajing posts, must be that "Mai Won Da Fatt" from 9 Yin Merdian Sutra :D

:

Nah, it is about the brother of Irom Palm with Kok Cheng. :D

I will be out for vacation for next few weeks. Pai Pai.

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Phenix


What is the value of the great jing which is non repeatable?

What is the value of repeatable jing which is not great?


:)

[PaulH]

Have fun, Hendrik. It has been fun and educational.

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by PaulH

I think that the body know best how to to it without going through all the detailed knowledges that you(Hendrik) have graciously provided in this forum so far. This is the way of Mushashi and M. Ali. They just think of hit and baam! it hits! But I'm curious to hear of your view on the SLT and how it fits to this end.

may be you need a trained Wing Chun body that knows best... but there are still lots of details IMHO..... ;)

http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article13.htm



(dfl) ps, watch out for that gau yum ba gwuk jow!

Hey Dan! Gau Yum Ba Gwuk Jow is a "shortcut" to the real deal - 9 Yin Meridian Surta!

[PaulH]

YY,

Hard to resist reading this relaxed article! Can you provide just a short name list of the missing details? The spilled beans are always interesting!

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by PaulH

Hard to resist reading this relaxed article! Can you provide just a short name list of the missing details? The spilled beans are always interesting!


ha ha, looking for shortcuts again? :D

I thought the article has enough details already..... the centre, the multi-angular, the rotation, the pivoting, the relax arm and shoulder, the attacking spirit.....

what else do you need? anti-gravity? that's top secret! ;)

[PaulH]

YY,

You hide the top secrets in your name! Somethings like Yin/Yang ging route diagrams if you have them. I figure the Ging explosion comes from sudden change or switch from Y to Y. One question. The Biu and Inverted straight palm connect to which ging flow or path?

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by PaulH
You hide the top secrets in your name! Somethings like Yin/Yang ging route diagrams if you have them. I figure the Ging explosion comes from sudden change or switch from Y to Y. One question. The Biu and Inverted straight palm connect to which ging flow or path?


Wah! you are doing matter to anti-matter conversion; from Y to ~Y. Gee... how'd you hide that secret for so long? ;)

Ging flow or paths are Hendrik's WCK master degree thesis, can't steal that from him. But if you may check out Phil's web site, he has a concise page on all the Ying/Yang meridians..... (study it! that's your summer holiday homework, Hendrik will quizz you in Sept).

Honestly I don't do Hendrik's stuffs, circles are all I do :D

[PaulH]

YY,

Thanks. I'll wait for the return of the Phoenix.

Regards,