Are modern MA too eager??

[Laughing Cow]

This is something I have been wondering about for a bit of time.

Are modern MA to eager??

I get a feeling that a lot of MA these days seem to be obsessed with making it work, filling holes, getting into the ring, adding non-ma stuff to make things happen sooner, etc.

Might this also be responsible for the lack of skill we see expressed by practicioners (i.e. reverting back to kickboxing, etc.)?

Or is it simply because I am in a traditional kwoon where the Sifu sez when we can do what and how.

For me MA is a long-time study (like painting) and I don't expect results soon nor mastery till a lot of time ahs passed in one style.

What's your thoughts.

[Golden Arms]

Who knows..I know this though..there are several guys at my school that have been there 20+ years, and they are brutally efficient fighters, that fight using Hung Gar techniques, from stances, and have hands like stone.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
This is something I have been wondering about for a bit of time.

Are modern MA to eager??

I get a feeling that a lot of MA these days seem to be obsessed with making it work, filling holes, getting into the ring, adding non-ma stuff to make things happen sooner, etc.

Might this also be responsible for the lack of skill we see expressed by practicioners (i.e. reverting back to kickboxing, etc.)?

Or is it simply because I am in a traditional kwoon where the Sifu sez when we can do what and how.

For me MA is a long-time study (like painting) and I don't expect results soon nor mastery till a lot of time ahs passed in one style.

What's your thoughts.
LC,

It all depend on what you want to get out of it. If you need to learn it for self-defense fast, would you want to take the long road?
If you need it to protect yourself b/c you live in a bad neighborhood, can you wait?

But, if you have some time and want something like a personal hobby/lifestyle, then sure, the long road is fine.

It all depends on what you need, what you are willing to give to get where you are going.

wm

[Laughing Cow]

wm.

Agreed, IME & IMO, MA are NOT good for Self Defense purpose.

They are fighting arts and not SD arts, the same way a gun is more of an offensive weapon than a defensive one.
(People will disagree here)

IMO, MA has been hijacked and diverted from it's true purpose and intendet usage to fit to something that can be marketed better.

Even western medieval fighting arts took years to master, a bowman stood holding a long staff for hours to develop muscle and strength needed to pull the Bow.
Those guys started to train at an early age to become FIGHTERS/SOLDIERS/WARRIORS naturally THEY could use those skills to defend themselves.

MA west or east, north or south all follow the same rules and guidelines for study.

Seeya.

[Laughing Cow]

WM and others.

To explain my viewpoint a bit more I would like to bring to mind the History of Yang Lu Chan.

There are many stories as why YLC came to study Chen TJQ at the village.

1.) He was accepted as a servant at a young age and by accident looked into secret training, studied himself and became profficient enough to be accepted as a student.

2.) He was already an accomplished MA and decided to study at the Chen village, where he was accepted after performing a service for the Village.

There is also confusion as to exactly how many years he trained at the Village(14~30yrs).
But all the Histories agree that he already had some MA training prior to his studies at the Chen Village.

One history rings true to me is as follows.

He studied for a few years and than went to visit his mother at the home-vilage, the boxers there challenged him to see what he had learned at the Chen Village, he was easily beaten.

He went back and studied for a few more years, this time he beat the other boxers but felt that there was still room for improvement as the victory didn't come easily.

So for the 3rd time he went back to Chen Village, where after a few more years he was told that he had learned everything and that now few could beat him.

[Christopher M]

I think most modern martial artists, like most traditional martial artists, do what they do primarily because they enjoy it, or it fills some other personality-oriented desire in their life (hobby, community, exercise, personal development, etc).

Online and in similar "discussion" venues, modern martial artists, like their traditional brethren, expound a host of typical arguments regarding what they're doing; but my experience is that, in both cases, these things are more for the sake of discussion, and do not change the above goals whatsoever.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
I get a feeling that a lot of MA these days seem to be obsessed with making it work, filling holes, getting into the ring, adding non-ma stuff to make things happen sooner, etc.making it work; a basic prerequisite of any MA I would think, but work at what!? People's aims vary, as do MAs.
filling holes: same as making it work?
getting into the ring: beimo is a test in non-lethal settings... Musashi even managed not to kill some of his duelling partners with the nice 'non-lethal' bokuto, and was partly responsible for developing shinai, despite his advocation of 'keeping it real'.
adding non-MA stuff to make things happen sooner: I think the styles/training frameworks that do this are no longer 'arts' as such... but even the arts always added things to make the practioners better...
Might this also be responsible for the lack of skill we see expressed by practicioners (i.e. reverting back to kickboxing, etc.)?No, don't think so. People's lack of skill is more a result of their impatience. An MTV teat, a greengrocer's daughter becoming a PM, you can do anything, but no kung needed!
Or is it simply because I am in a traditional kwoon where the Sifu sez when we can do what and how.But is he a good teacher? So, what are your goals and is he helping you to meet them?
They are fighting arts and not SD artsWhaaat ! Dp you mean if you get attacked in the street you don't want to use your art for self defence, to finish the situation quickly, and that you want to showcase your fighting skills? What's the difference between fighting and self-defence? Fighting is self defence! Unless it's in the ring as a sport!
diverted from it's true purpose and intendet usage Whaaat! What's MA's intended usage? Whose MA has been hijacked? Call the SAS!:D
Even western medieval fighting arts took years to master, a bowman stood holding a long staff for hours to develop muscle and strength needed to pull the Bow.So, what's your point?! They also took hours pulling on real bows, shooting arrows...
Those guys started to train at an early age to become FIGHTERS/SOLDIERS/WARRIORS naturally THEY could use those skills to defend themselves.'defend themselves'...?! Would that be, er, like, 'self defence'...?! Er, like, a defensive projectile weapon, like er, a gun for example...?!:D

C'mon, LC, try harder: what is your point!!!:D Too much coffee this morning...!!!???


For me MA is a long-time study (like painting) and I don't expect results soon nor mastery till a lot of time ahs passed in one style.
Me, I don't expect mastery. I just keep studying, keep practising, keep testing it, and hope to achieve a reasonable level of proficiency one day...!

[Mr Punch]

With respect, this whole story is a respectful crock of respectful ****!:D
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
To explain my viewpoint a bit more I would like to bring to mind the History of Yang Lu Chan.Cool! Does anyone know it?!


There are many stories as why YLC came to study Chen TJQ at the village.

1.) He was accepted as a servant at a young age and by accident looked into secret training, studied himself and became profficient enough to be accepted as a student.Would that be 'by accident' once? Oops, just happened to see that darned secret training again! Then he practised himself, with the aid of a few reasonably priced videos, but absolutely no instructor, and became proficient enough to stop sweeping the **** floor... just!


2.) He was already an accomplished MA and decided to study at the Chen village, where he was accepted after performing a service for the Village.'accomplished' by doing what exactly? Fighting people? In a ring? Beimo? NHB (lots of unfortunate sudden lacks of sparring partners!)? Open warfare...? ah, that daily need to use your art to survive chestnut...!


There is also confusion as to exactly how many years he trained at the Village(14~30yrs).That demn mathematics! Maybe that's why I always get so drunk...
I'll have (one, two, ...) five pints please... er, no, three sir, not two, not four... but three... for that is the sacred number...:D
So was it 14 or 30? Or 20? Or six months, a Gracie BJJ vid, and a Ralek super-strength pack of tissues to clean himself up afterwards...?!:D


He studied for a few years and than went to visit his mother at the home-vilage, the boxers there challenged him to see what he had learned at the Chen Village, he was easily beaten.

He went back and studied for a few more yearsWait! He went back??!! This chump needs to pay more money! This chump needs some quality control! No, this chump needs more beatings/to change teachers! How many bloody years should it take!!


So for the 3rd time he went back to Chen Village, where after a few more years he was told that he had learned everything and that now few could beat him. Hang on again... who told him? Did he go back and fight his home-town boxers again? Wait, why the hell did he ever leave his home-town, if they were so ****-hot...?! These Chen masters must have been raking it in...!

:D:D:D

Sorry LC, nothing personal, just ragging ya! I haven't had enough coffee this morning!

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Mat
Sorry LC, nothing personal, just ragging ya! I haven't had enough coffee this morning!

What 4 cups ain't enough for ya.

Or did they serve you decaf again at Starbucks?
:D :D :D

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
wm.

IMO, MA has been hijacked and diverted from it's true purpose and intendet usage to fit to something that can be marketed better.


LC,

MA like many thing is a reflection of the practitioner. Depending on where you are in life, MA has different meaning. So, when you said MA has been diverted from its "true purpose", I can't fully agree.

But, looking from a striclty religious point of view, in which the purpose of existence is to cultivate self and reach enlighten, then you are quite correct.

I know the Yang Lu Chan story. I read the old novel, "stealing fist", and how he supposedly learn the Chen Taiji.

I am of the opinion that he had some background first and was introduce to the head instructor. I seriously question how well Yang would be treated if the Chen family found out that a "servant" (in the "stealing fist", yang worked in the village as a servant to steal Taiji) was stealing Chen's art. Natural instinct dictate that he was in for the beating of his life.

Now, I want to complain about how the US youth culture pushed by the MTV, hollywood, etc is corrupting MA in the states. I want to complain about how it drives people to have certain expectation. I want to complain about how in the east, the art is taught to those who were deem honorable, trustworthy after the sifu had spent some time getting to know the student. I want to complain about how it is too commercialize. These are what makes modern ma guys seem too impatient.

But, I don't have the time, nor is anybody interested in reading my rant. so let's cut it short. :)

wm

[Ryu]

Now, I want to complain about how the US youth culture pushed by the MTV, hollywood, etc is corrupting MA in the states.




I don't do any sort of kung fu at all, and yet I agree with this 110%. Media does a lot to trivilize and downright insult a lot of things.

;)
But you'll all be hearing about that from me in the future.

Ryu

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
I want to complain about how in the east, the art is taught to those who were deem honorable, trustworthy after the sifu had spent some time getting to know the student. I want to complain about how it is too commercialize. These are what makes modern ma guys seem too impatient.

But, I don't have the time, nor is anybody interested in reading my rant. so let's cut it short. :)

wm

WanderingMonk-- I'm interested in what you have to say on this matter. I may not agree, but I'm interested. ;)

In my short time learning Shuai Chiao, I've already learned three or four workable throws, some counters, and already tried to put them into sparring. I'm a modern MA guy, and yet, I'm learning a traditional art. Why is what I'm doing wrong?

Just interested in some good discussion, mind you.

[Laughing Cow]

CrippledAvenger.

Would you be interested in SC if you only learned the first tech after 2~3 month of doing "basics" and than worked on the same tech for another 2~3 month?

Just curious.

[Merryprankster]

This is something I have been wondering about for a bit of time.

Are traditional MA too complacent??

I get a feeling that a lot of TMA these days seem to think they have all the answers, rest on their laurels and have no interest in development or exploration, challenging themselves to reasonable tests of martial skill and also cite past masters' accomplishments as indications of their own sifu's (or their own) martial skill.

Might this also be responsible for the lack of skill we see expressed by practicioners (i.e. reverting to wild swings and off balance movements that look nothing like any good artist regardless of style etc.)?

Or is it simply because I am in a "non-traditional" school where the instructor teaches us with an eye to ensuring that we improve holes in our game and ensures we are prepared, physically and technically, and encourages us to explore other techniques and aspects that seem to work well for us.

For me MA is a long-time study (like painting) and I don't expect results soon nor mastery till a lot of time has passed in one style. On the other hand, I don't expect to only paint landscapes because that's what teacher says. What if I want to do a portrait or abstractionism from time to time? All three are valid and may offer new ways of looking at my landscapes that may improve them, overall.

What's your thoughts.

[Laughing Cow]

‚l‚o�D

I don't think that the TMA got all the answers, OTOH, they got a lot of experience and a large pool of knowledge to draw on.

Do you think that MMA got all the answers or that they can come up with knowledge & thinks that a few centuries of TMA can't or didn't.

Can a few years of mixed style study replace in-depth study in one style and all that it entails?

I won't go into the are of TMA not competing to test what they got as it is a useless debate with little real insight coming from either side which only results in plain name-calling and slamming of the other side.

As there are lots of things going on that the other side doesn't see.
;)

Seeya.

[Merryprankster]

As there are lots of things going on that the other side doesn't see.

Ditto.

I get just as tired of hearing that people in MMA aren't dedicated to what they do as you do hearing that TMA guys are learning to dance. Capiche? I've spent 8 years in grappling and I've just started.

FWIW, it takes dedication to properly prepare for ringfights. Disregarding that - especially those who do it repeatedly - is just as bad as saying "TMA guys don't spar."

The reverting to kickboxing comment really rankles. You don't "revert to kickboxing." It's a slander I'm pretty tired of hearing. The "reversion to kickboxing" - I'm still waiting to see it. What I usually see is a reversion to sloppy playground tripe that looks nothing like a well-trained fighter of any sort. I've never once watched a guy "revert" to anything that looks like Peter Aerts, Francicso Filho, Mo Smith or Andy Hug.

Becoming good at any combat pursuit requires dedication, time, and willpower. Hell, becoming good at anything requires that.

[Laughing Cow]

MP.

I am in full agreement with you.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

MP.

My point is not TMA vs MMA, but dedicated vs your average joe.

I have been to MMA schools close to me and seen the same class of "slackers" I find in plenty of traditional schools.

Same I have been in commercialised TMA schools and schools were rules were strict and the average student was way above the level of the commercialised schools.

May it be TMA, MMA or whatever each school will draw a class of student suited to the teacher.



Becoming good at any combat pursuit requires dedication, time, and willpower. Hell, becoming good at anything requires that.

Agreed my point being that the average modern joe doesn't see this nor is willing to put the effort in.
But rather get hung up and parrot what they hear, may it be TMA classics or Royce Gracie.

And unfortunately there are plenty of people selling MA for SD, Self improvement and health benefits.
True same can be said for any modern endavour(sp.)

Cheers.

[Merryprankster]

Gotcha. So what you are really saying is the problem with slackers is they are slackers but still expect to get good :D

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Gotcha. So what you are really saying is the problem with slackers is they are slackers but still expect to get good :D

Yup, a dedicated person will get good at whatever they set their mind to.

Always love at some guys at my kwoon that call me dedicated simply because I hardly ever miss a class, train rather than go through the motions and thus progress faster than they do.
:D

IME, too many people will simply do what they are told, but not put more effort into it than is absolutely needed.

Cheers.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


WanderingMonk-- I'm interested in what you have to say on this matter. I may not agree, but I'm interested. ;)

In my short time learning Shuai Chiao, I've already learned three or four workable throws, some counters, and already tried to put them into sparring. I'm a modern MA guy, and yet, I'm learning a traditional art. Why is what I'm doing wrong?

Just interested in some good discussion, mind you.

hahaa. beware what you ask for. I am a big windbag who like to complain. If I start, I might not stop. :)

IMO, shuai jiao is something that you can see use pretty quick. Slamming people down to the ground is always satisfying. Most shuai jiao school is no nonsense, so you learn ma skill pretty quick.

But, even in shuai jiao, there are "black hand" techniques which is different from what you practice on a daily basis (slight alteration but make your move more deadly). Your teacher will not show it to you until he feel you are a trustworthy character. This is a trust which need to develop between a teacher and student.

My complaint about modern ma is more about the mind set people have when they join in. They want to learn this and that and not necessary follow through the usual progression. In America, you (student) is the customer and as a customer, you have certain "expectations". Yes, the consumer culture has spoil us (me included, it might not apply to you though).

Bucksam Kong (a good hung gar guy out in california) talk about how his teacher, Lam Jo (very famous Hung gar guy) used only teach one technique at a time in Hong Kong. He won't teach you the next technique unless Lam Jo feel you learn that one technique.

You can't run that a school like that in the States. But, then a lot of Hong kong people also quit from Lam Jo's school because it was too harsh. But, then again, may be these are story they tell you just to make you work harder. I always like those joke in which the father tell his kid to stop complaining b/c father was doing with far less back in the "old country". "Shoes? back in my days, we didn't even have feet."

So, come down to it, the problem is how to teach the art to the modern day audience indoctrinated in the consumer culture. The consumer culture give the student (customer) a certain expectation while the teacher might have a different expectation (if you want to learn the real deal, you got to prove yourself). Of course, there are jokers out there pretending to be the "real deal", so it really make it hard to determine whether the guy you are with is holding something back until you prove yourself or the guy just don't have the stuff and is milking you for what you have (money).

But, then again, all the real secret is in the basics. If you do the basics well, you build a good foundation and can discover the secret on your own given enough time. But, a lot of people is also looking for the "secret" technique which will make them invincible. but, that kind of mind set also impair them from really learning MA.

In response to your question, you are a modern guy who is learning TMA, well, there's nothing wrong with that. My issue is really with the mind set people have and end up in b/c of certain notions in their head. When talking about modern MA, I am really referring to modern day student (indoctrinated in consumer culture) and their effect on TMA.

It is just a big complaint fest for me. nothing more,

wm

[Ray Pina]

I think it all goes back to really spending a lot of time looking for a school before joining up. The Hung Gar and WIng Chun I was learning was very round about -- a lot of forms, chi sau, a lot of line drills. But no solid principles to be worked.

S. Mantis was different: We put gear on and fought every class. We didn't learn tons of moves, just a few basic blocks and strikes but worked them. I learned a lot quickly here.

Now, with Hsing-I, I can say my fighting style has been completely revamped in two years. I'm a fighter now, aiming to be a beater. Two years is what it took. I know this won't be popular, but I threw out all the old stuff. My master said I'd be a pretty good fighter in two years and I think he was true to his word. Lot's of room for improvement, but I'm doing alright, holding my own with heavy weights.

Interesting though, he said two years for a fighter, LIFETIME for a martial artist (INTERNAL, weapons: long, short, medium, throwing, whip, ect). I'm in it for the long haul.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Or is it simply because I am in a "non-traditional" school where the instructor teaches us with an eye to ensuring that we improve holes in our game and ensures we are prepared, physically and technically, and encourages us to explore other techniques and aspects that seem to work well for us.

For me MA is a long-time study (like painting) and I don't expect results soon nor mastery till a lot of time has passed in one style. On the other hand, I don't expect to only paint landscapes because that's what teacher says. What if I want to do a portrait or abstractionism from time to time? All three are valid and may offer new ways of looking at my landscapes that may improve them, overall.

What's your thoughts.

My thoughts are that you just described a traditional fighting school ;)

[red5angel]

Hey guys and gals. I am in the middle of going from almost exclusively from TMA to MMA. I am transitioning because I want to do sport fighting. I am noticing the same things everyone else likes to point out, the same generalities that are being repeated on this thread.
Talking to my new training partners, these guys who train in BJJ and Muy Thai, some other arts as well, these guys are training their asses off. A guy in the class I am in gave me his basic workout, what they start people on who want to compete, just a basic conditioning bodyweight routine. I almost threw up halfway through it the first time! I haven't been worked that hard in a a few years, and never in a TMA school.
I have done some pretty demanding stuff in TMA, some stance work mostly, standing around in awkward stances, that sort of crap.
Bottom line is these guys are working hard. They have classes for hobbysits too, the token get in shape type classes and some basic self defense, but the classes I am taking and the amount of training they are doing outside of classes is way more in proportion to all of the TMA I have experienced.
If TMA guys trained as hard as this they would be out there kicking ass as well. If they caught up with the times, adapted to modern training methods, they could be out there kicking ass.
If TMA would let go of it's archaic ideas, move on and adapt to changing times, things would be much better for it. It doesn't get respect because most 99.9% of TMA guys don't train hard enough to make an impression. They don't even train hard enough half the time to compete in MMA events!!

[yenhoi]

Sifu sez when we can do what and how.

:mad:

You are responsible for your training.

...and the results.

:eek:

[old jong]

These threads always turn into TMA vs MMA futile arguments.
To answer the question, Traditional arts will give you in proportion to what you put in them. That's all.
You are cultivating your "Gung"... Not your Sifu or anybody else. You have to go past the "technique vs technique" stage and work as hard as possible to master all you are taught.


P.S. Merryprankster.
You don,t have to turn this post around like you enjoy to do. I know what I said applies to MMA's as well. ;)

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Are modern MA to eager??


No.



I get a feeling that a lot of MA these days seem to be obsessed with making it work, filling holes, getting into the ring, adding non-ma stuff to make things happen sooner, etc.


Where should their obsession by focused?



Might this also be responsible for the lack of skill we see expressed by practicioners (i.e. reverting back to kickboxing, etc.)?


You probably saw the video from the famous White Crane and Wu style TJQ guy. They looked like crap as well. While this is 50 years ago, I'd suggest the following mind experiment:

back in 1500 AD, I'm taking a video of a coupla much-touted fellas with my Anachron 5000. What's the probability they have an equally ugly fight?



Or is it simply because I am in a traditional kwoon where the Sifu sez when we can do what and how.


When you put it like that, you sound like a Mooney.

"Sifu, I've been eating too much hay. May I take a dump?"
"Yes, my son."



For me MA is a long-time study (like painting) and I don't expect results soon nor mastery till a lot of time ahs passed in one style.


I think attitude is common in many fields of endeavor. Though it might be productive to remember the following:

if you put all your eggs in one basket, ya better watch it like a hawk.

===== random thoughts during this thread =====

And probably a hijack worthy of its own thread...

My wife plays tennis and has a coach. Likewise, I have friends who have coaches for other sports/physical activities (ie rock climbing or fencing) they train. Furthermore, it's not uncommon for my wife to openly disagree with her coach about something.

It's my experience few martial arts are organized in this manner. Instead, they're often organized in one of the following ways:

1) rigid hierarchical and militaristic structure
2) rigid hierarchical and familial structure with the instructor as paterfamilias

Some random questions. . .

1) where did these structures originate?
2) how do these structures promote and constrain skill levels?
3) what benefits would accrue from a "coaching relationship?" Similarly, what would be lost from such a relationship?

[Laughing Cow]

Or is it simply because I am in a traditional kwoon where the Sifu sez when we can do what and how.

Some clarification I think needs to be done.

What I meant it is your Sifu that should decide when you spar, do forms and so on.

IMO, there are too many students that spar too soon, and than never go back to the forms to do corrections (TonyM said it nicely).

It is hard to spot flaws and similar during full sparring and bad habits can be developed.
Granted while said person might win a lot, does he do so within the parameters of his style?

Same way it should be up to your Sifu to say if you can do additional training at another kwoon or similar.

To be honest, what I see happen a lot in Modern MA is worrying me, many MA just seem to want to do what they want regardless if it is good for their
MA.

Like I said I am a traditionalist, and I get often "corrected" by my Sifu about attitude and behaviour.
We got a fairly strict code of conduct within the kwoon and the style.

Cheers.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

Granted while said person might win a lot, does he do so within the parameters of his style?


The parameters of the style? If there are guidelines, principles, whatever, that are not "allowed" in a particular style, doesn't that make that style weaker? Not bashing TMA, as I am still kinda one myself, but why have limitations? I've heard from a Lau Gar instructor at a tournament, "within most styles, there are all the principles for a proper combatant to follow. Because of that, you can't step outside your style; you learn a new aspect of it."

[Laughing Cow]

Vash.

No, it wouldn't make the style weaker.

Each style has it's own underlying principles (many are shared among styles), if you don't follow those principles you ARE no longer doing your style. You are simply performing techs.

The point being are you simply fighting or are you fighting using your style.

Most of your techs rely on the underlying principles to be effective, if they are not there your game will be weaker.

I can perform our techs using muscular energy, but it will not be as effective as using the principles of my style which require calmness, relaxation (song), spiral energy, and so on.

This is what takes time in TMA, not learning a tech, forms, etc but incorporating your styles principles into everything you do so that you want have to think about the principles anymore.

Just my thoughts.