Wing chun counters to jabs?

[Jook Lum]

Hello everyone i do not study Wing Chun so i am curious how your style blocks,counters or neutralize quick jab punches.Thank you for your time.

[TjD]

in wing chun typically we assume every strike is the real deal,
so if someone puts their arm out with a fake jab (or a real one) we do the same thing: try and close the gap; bridge the jab if its in the way, if its not - hit 'em. but most importantly, get in there and hit em :D

there aren't really any set techniques, ie. he does that I do this. it depends on the situation when the jab gets bridged.

(sorry if it's not the answer you were looking for)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Jook Lum
Hello everyone i do not study Wing Chun so i am curious how your style blocks,counters or neutralize quick jab punches.Thank you for your time.

kick him in the groin.:D

[S.Teebas]

We would pull out our double swords and cut the hand off ;)

[Savi]

It depends how you are facing them. Strategically, we train to flank the closest side of the opponent to us. For example, my left lead side is flanking their right lead side. Some fighting styles refer to this as an 'open stance alignment'. In turn, that does not allow a non-telegraphic (linear) attack to enter from the outside of our leading side making interceptions easier to manage. We will use this 'open stance alignment' to describe the following examples.

Depending if the jab is coming to the inside or outside of our lead hand will determine what response we take. The key thing to remember is that space determines what techniques will be employed. Some examples are as follows:

Outside High Attack: Intercepting (have more time)
Presuming the attack is targeting the head area, if you are able to read the attack before it enters your space a side spearing arm (Wang Biu Sau) would be most suitable to cover the head area. This is provided you do two things:

1) advance the body forward into the attack itself on a sideways diagonal thereby closing the depth as well as flanking the opponent far enough sideways to be out of range of the secondary hand, and

2) maintain whole body support for the spearing hand that is clearing the upper head area of the attack. If your bridging is successful, you should have disaligned the jabbing arm from the rest of the body support while establishing your position inside their space. In other words, you have just swept the attack off the battlefield.

What you end up with is not a nose to nose confrontation, but an advantage that leaves you with all of your weapons facing and in penetrating range of the target while disabling the initial threat. Also, it gives you the inside position of all of their weapons.

Inside Jab attack: Intercepting (have more time)
Same set up as above (our left side to their right side)... An upper gate attack inside the lead hand is quite easier to deal with because of the availability of both of our hands now. It is what we call a Two Line Offense and Defense where the lead hand is directly in front of the back hand, roughly one forearm length apart front to back. In our WC, we refer to this posture as Jong Sau.

1) The lead hand can actually do several things. For now, one example we will use a 'catching-type hand' which jerks the punch across our body while influencing the attacker's center of gravity. This does a few things to the attacker: a) crosses up the attacker's weapons, b) steals their time, c) gives you more time as well as the flank against them. This in turn allows you to advance closer to the attacker giving proper striking range for the back hand release, and just enough space to maintain a viable defense while striking.

--------------------

In these examples, all are hypothetically being proposed in a timeframe where you have excellent time to respond and engage the attack with the lead hand. In this particular timeframe it is what we call intercepting. A different response would be called for, should the attack bypass the lead hand. This would call for the back hand to respond. In this particular timeframe we refer to is as redirecting, which I did not address in this post. Keep in mind also that these descriptions are general in nature, intended to give a 'little idea' about the scenario only.

[fa_jing]

For cross-stance setup - Evade, control distance, pick your moment - a lazy or uncommitted jab - pak sao with rear and punch with lead hand to his inside gate with a short step forward, if he blocks with a slap then you trap the lead hand with yours (jut sao or lan sao) while fading to the outside and hit him with the rear hand.

There are many other options, but this one works reasonably well. It does involve an inside gate attack, so may not be suitable against a much larger opponent.

[Universal Stance]

Cross Arm:
Pak sao with rear hand with trap; Cheung sao; or Tan sao, changing angle with lead hand to Bil sao with lead hand while trapping with rear.

Parrallel Arm:
Fook sao with lead arm.

My old sifu used to teach amateur boxers how to incorporate wing chun principles in into boxing. TWC as taught by Grandmaster Cheung seemed to work well into it. Anyway, we were taught to attack off rhythm by pak sao'ing the first jab. Fook sao'ing the next, which does several things:

- Throws opponent off the usual 1-2-3 rhythm
- Creates a bridge
- Slows the jabs return
- Gives you control of the elbow
- (Once you have the elbow trapped) gives you a straight line from the elbow to his head for attack
- Assists in creating addition lines of attack or traps. ie, rotation into a garn sao, another pak sao or arm lock

I used all above mentioned techniques, especially the parallel arm version, all the time...works for me. When you fook sao it, bring it a little lower, hooking the fist and enter as he is pulling his hand back.

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Jook Lum
Hello everyone i do not study Wing Chun so i am curious how your style blocks,counters or neutralize quick jab punches.Thank you for your time.

Slap, thrust, jam, get the heck out the way, attack down the line ... blah blah blah ... blah blah blah ... it's about the same strategy as any other decent style, though it might look a little bit different on occasion. :)

Sao Gerk Song Siu, Mo Jeet Jiu -- Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit.

[yuanfen]

jook lum- are you studying with sifu Mark or one of his students?
In SPM what would you do?

[Jook Lum]

Thank you everyone for your replies!It is always interesting to see how different people and styles deal with different strikes.I have studied under GFM.To answer your question about the jab-Usually i use a Moy Shu(gliding or grinding hand) to counter the jab.It is a soft / feeling block which uses the first part of the hand(first part is from tip of fingers to about two to two and a half inches below the wrist).As with most counters it can be applied using diiferent powers depending on the angle,speed and power of attack.For a jab it is usually done with either short power to cause a small deflection of the punch or a sticky / sliding movement to slide across the top of the punchers wrist(from the outside of the arm).Low kicks and dropping low and striking also work very effectively.I hopes this answers your question,if not let me know so i can explain it better.

[yuanfen]

jook lum-understood. Thanks much.

[8StalksOfRice]

depends upon the quality of the jab
i dare say most wingchunners never face(d) a boxer with an excellent jab

whats and excellent jab.. accurate, fast, powerful enough to keep you at bay or set you up

you ever seem Muhammad Ali's jab? I doubt many of you could counter it.. its simply impossible to even see it coming before it tags you in the face..

find a good boxer with a jab who doesnt want to mess up yer face and try some sparring.. you may learn something

[Edmund]

Who has *not* seen Ali fights?
There's miles of footage on Ali.

Ali did not have a fast jab. He was a heavyweight and went at heavyweight speeds. Let's not get carried away.

[zen_monkey]

Quote "Ali did not have a fast jab"

hehehehe:D

Sorry but I would have to disagree.

[yuanfen]

Jacobs who was Ali's comanger was also world handball champ in his time. He hada an expert tecnically(movie frames with synchronized cameras) compare the speed of Ali's jabs and those of the great middleweight- and possibly best boxer of all times- Sugar Ray Robinson. Ali's jabs were faster.
Practice against simulated jabs of average quality can create illusions.

[fa_jing]

At the same time, when watching boxing matches, I see often that one fighter is completely dominated for the entire match by the other's jab. Yet, they never seem to change their approach to dealing with it (evade). One would think that they could do something to at least try to change the outcome of the fight. I keep thinking that in these cases, the fighter on the losing end should attempt to take space by covering, engaging the opponent's lead arm, blocking and countering, etc. Some wing chun tactics could work in this case - and again, at least worth a try.

[Edmund]

I have trouble with the validity of that statement.
Robinson had a 30 year long career. When did they measure his speed? He fought at welterweight all the way up to lightheavy.
You know the implications.

Ali was fast compared to other heavyweights.

Compared to lightweights he was not fast.




Originally posted by yuanfen
Jacobs who was Ali's comanger was also world handball champ in his time. He hada an expert tecnically(movie frames with synchronized cameras) compare the speed of Ali's jabs and those of the great middleweight- and possibly best boxer of all times- Sugar Ray Robinson. Ali's jabs were faster.
Practice against simulated jabs of average quality can create illusions.

[yuanfen]

Edmund- you have a right to believe what you wish.
In any case- film technicians can compare speed by comparing and contrasting film frames side by side of the same action by different people. In any case, the late (Joe?) Jacobs was Tyson's (not Ali;s) comanager in early DAmato days- He made the study of the comparison of jabs, He was a first class boxing film collector
and many fight films on the market one way or the other are connected with his efforts. Some of Robinson's early welterweight fights are not film... more of his middleweight ones are...to the best of my knowledge he had only one light heavy championship fight which he was winning- until he collapsed in the heat. Jacob's film analysis was between Robinson asa a middle weight and Ali as a heavyweight- in his prime. Ali wasa light heavy in the Olympics as an amateur.

Fajing-- a good jabber can keep someone at bay by varying timing
- timing is not the same as speed and is more important than speed.

jook lum- the key to a wing chun person handling top flight jabs is an issue of timing not just speed. A wc person should not play the boxers game and depend too much on sparring. Chi sao is a fairly unique route for devloping wing chun timing.

[Edmund]

Considering that he fought at middleweight up until he retired in his mid 40's I would like to know when they did the measuring.



Originally posted by yuanfen
Edmund- you have a right to believe what you wish.
In any case- film technicians can compare speed by comparing and contrasting film frames side by side of the same action by different people. In any case, the late (Joe?) Jacobs was Tyson's (not Ali;s) comanager in early DAmato days- He made the study of the comparison of jabs, He was a first class boxing film collector
and many fight films on the market one way or the other are connected with his efforts. Some of Robinson's early welterweight fights are not film... more of his middleweight ones are...to the best of my knowledge he had only one light heavy championship fight which he was winning- until he collapsed in the heat. Jacob's film analysis was between Robinson asa a middle weight and Ali as a heavyweight- in his prime. Ali wasa light heavy in the Olympics as an amateur.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Fajing-- a good jabber can keep someone at bay by varying timing
- timing is not the same as speed and is more important than speed.



True, but what I'm talking about is that alot of times in this situation, the losing fighter just stands there and watches, trying to stay out of range and evading with head movement while the jab grazes their face and basically shuts them down. Why not try to engage that lead arm?

[yuanfen]

Fajing- the good ones do.

Joe Frazier would juke in... but atea lot of jabs along the way.

Contributed to his slurred speech.

[mysteri]

i would suggest tryin some simple counter, like pak sau, w/ a partner.

then, i would turn around and put on some head gear w/ face cage and ask ur partner to put on some cut-finger gloves(very little loss of hand speed) and THEN ask him to try his best to punch u SOLIDLY in the face w/ a jab. i can guarantee u if done right, u'll realize the intent is different and u'll have a much harder time tryin to counter as the punches will jus seem to slip in. if nuttin else, u'll learn the difference btwn trainin cautiously and then straight up goin @ it(where the trainin partner isn't scare to bust ur nose open anymore). it may take a while to adjust to the intent of the punch. i think this would be the best time to learn to read their intent and interrupt their timin. jus from my little experience..

[Savi]

One thing that we train in HFY Wing Chun is "gate clearance". Regardless of the type of attack you have to deal with the primary focus is to keep your gates clear of the opponent's parts/energy as well as keeping them under control. Several themes that are apparent to me in HFY application are this (in my own words):

1) Be mindful of your space (high to low, left to right, front to back) when addressing an attacker. Keep their energies off your center, but own the "real estate" at all times.

2) Be mindful of your position relative to the attacker. In other words, angulate at all times (never nose to nose).

3) Be mindful of your center. You should at all times begin all action mentally and physically from your mind, body and spirit.

4) Consider factors of risk WRT yourself, your opponent, and the environment; Risk Management.

5) Be mindful of energy. Energy is dynamic and is always in flux. Remember to identify and control your own energies as well as the attackers'.

These maybe common themes as well in other matrial arts, and these 5 points I picked out must be focused on at all times (I'm sure there are more points as well), regardless of the style you have to deal with, regardless of the person you are fighting.

I feel that when it comes down to it, combat is one person vs another person. Combat is not this 'style' vs that 'style'. Because of this, you cannot focus on what techniques you have to deal with and observe. Rather, how can you maintain control of yourself and take control of the situation in a low self-risk approach with maximum results.

[PaulH]

Good points, Savi!

For fast jabs, I can zone out to his side and kwun sau to cover. This is your point #2.

Or if I like I will biu disrupting his chain jabs as well as forcing or creating his response on my biu bridge. I will then cross his bridge attacking his center. Groin kick of Hendrik is more safe and faster than this biu hand though.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

If you know you're facing a boxer in a 1-on-1 duel type situation where you both can set up (mentaly and physically) before engagement, much of the advice previously given has merit (especially Savi's very detailed, very thought out post).

If on the other hand you're suddenly thrust into combat without any idea of the true numbers, capacity, intent, etc. of opponents and do not have the luxury of pre-setting yourself, the jab will come as easily as the haymaker or shoot and you need to be able to have reflexive responses that will shield you from a wide range of attacks and, while shielding (and even countering if your skill level is relatively high enough comapred to the attacker), improve your position (not just relative to the attacker but to the environment) at the same time.

In other words, f' the jab, you can't worry about it. You need to smash the attack quickly and in such a way as it sets up your repeated smashing of them while using either the surroundings or their bodies to minimize the chance someone else will hit you while you're (rapidly) finishing them.

How do you smash? You use strong stuctural alignment and mechanics composed of geometry that holds up under stress, *very* simple movements that you can execute under pressure, and a mind set that allows you to move in and do it.

You don't fuss with the jab, you cut off the opponent's offense all together, attack their structure so they can't compose a defense, smash them, and then continue if you didn't finish them, or move along if you did.

The most useful weapons in this sense will be Kim Yeung Ma with the simple turn and step if/as needed, and the vertical punch with its built in defense that allows for the offense (or whatever, Kwan Sao, or any move, can do the same if you train it).

To train, have a partner begin slow and light with a variety of attacks, including jabs, and learn to lock onto them and smash their center regardless of which of 3.2 million different types/angles/'engergies'/etc. they throw at you, and finish them quick. Then build up faster and heavier as you go. Rinse, repeat.

[mysteri]

great points RR, nice and raw.

since we're on that wavelength, i honestly personally never concern myself too much w/ someone's front jab as its not the "power" hand. usually, a jab, as someone stated before, is simply used as a setup for somethin else. a good fighter will use it to draw an opponent or test their responses, similiar to how a TKD stylists will throw some light round kicks up to "test the waters". it is almost always a setup for somethin else, and i would be moer concerned w/ what comes afterward, such as a solid cross, or even worse a combination. i think RR's advice was best. i always think,"f*ck what this guy gives me; he better be more concerned about what i'm bouta give him!" :)

[Savi]

Originally posted by mysteri
since we're on that wavelength, i honestly personally never concern myself too much w/ someone's front jab as its not the "power" hand.
Hi Mysteri,
Although you do have a point, Energy is Energy regardless if it is the power side or not. You are correct about the intent behind light kicks and punches being used as measuring tools, but from a military perspective, any possible risk to self is unacceptable. An attack that is able to penetrate your defense is a weakness / flaw / hole in structure. Therefore I will have to disagree with your statement in relation to factors of risk. If you disregard those 'feeler' techniques and wait for the stronger attacks, both your time and energy are being wasted in the process. Not to mention the inability to capitalize on the 'offering' and possibility of unneccesary damage as well.

Proper footwork and hand positions is all that is neccesary to keep those types of attacks at bay. If it isn't, then you don't have the most efficient setup of your parts in relation to them.

[anerlich]

i honestly personally never concern myself too much w/ someone's front jab as its not the "power" hand. usually, a jab, as someone stated before, is simply used as a setup for somethin else.

Mike TYson and Kostya Tszyu are two counterexamples. So are a few of my training partners. Jack Dempsey advocated KO power in both hands.

IMO this is a dangerous generalisation. Indeed, a WC practitioner should be able to do damage with either paw. As should a boxer.

[yuanfen]

Larry Holmes knocked down a Puerto Rican ina heavyweight championship with a left jab.

Lots of people jabs are more powerful than many right hands.

Its a mistake to theorize about the power of a good jab by someone who knows what they are doing.

Wing chun timing can work against a jab but undersetimating is a mistake. Power is relative.

Also Amerlich is right... boxers and wc folks can have power in both hands.

A jab can turn into something else in mid flight.

[mysteri]

thank u guys for ur replies. i think that maybe i should clarify a lil bit on what i said since it seems that my words may be taken twisted. first and foremost, since i'm not a WC practicioner, i don't want to pretend to know much about it as i do not.

since i study jow ga fightin, i'll speak from that perspective. i think that we can all agree, however, that in most cases, u won't be fightin a champion boxer, generally. i think any good fighter can usually "read" the intent of their opponent, eg. if their front fist is a "feeler" or the "real deal". now i'd like to correct that i didn't say that a front jab can't knock someone out, actually earlier i pointed out the power it can have(i think my first post), but generally people will try to use that first jab to feel w/. the one thing i keep in mind when fight is distance. since jow ga is a southern long hand system, we prefer to control the gap btwn the opponent and ourselves. whether a jab is quick and hard, or slow and weak, it shall be dealt w/ accordingly, afterall, a jab's jus a jab. i think for someone to move into range to hit w/ power, they must move in fast and hard, or must already be close enough to hit. if they're already close enough to hit, then they should have been repeatedly hit by me already. if they r not, then they must move their entire body into my range and bridge the gap, and this will indicate to me the intent. this i do know from my own experience and it of course in no way is the "be all, end all" solution to front jabs :) but i think that we can all agree that as long as we can read the intent and recognize what's comin beforehand, the jab isn't too hard to remedy, and simply becomes an obstruction to my targets and objective, no more no less. take care.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by mysteri
[ i think that we can all agree, however, that in most cases, u won't be fightin a champion boxer, generally.

1. Maybe not, but IMO your average boxer is a more dangerous animal than most TCMA trainees.

2. If your MA is designed to deal with incompetents rather than the elite, IMO your training is deficient. One of my mentors suggests you need something that's going to have a chance of working against a combination State champion kickboxer and BJJ purple belt.


i think any good fighter can usually "read" the intent of their opponent

Yeah but boxers can be one of your "any good fighter"s too. And "any good fighter" understands the value of deception and
distraction.


i think that we can all agree that as long as we can read the intent and recognize what's comin beforehand, the jab isn't too hard to remedy, and simply becomes an obstruction to my targets and objective, no more no less

as long as ... hardly a guarantee. I'm not sure we can all agree.

[mysteri]

man, i got off of work early for the first time, so i got some more time to amuse myself.

bro(s), i think that we can both agree to disagree. but that's perfectly fine as one of us would be unnecessary if we agreed on everything, right?

i wouldn't call my trainin deficient, quite contrary actually. i think that maybe our differences lie in our mentalities. i train my hardest w/ the most quality i can get out of what i train, and most realistic. though my experience is limited, its an advantage that i do train w/ experience fighters and martial artists(my own mentors) who know what works and what doesn't. of course, what works for one person doesn't always necessarily mean it will work for another. i think one major difference is though i train to be prepared against tough fighters(as opposed to moderate fighters or someone usin "self-defense" skills), i don't take too many people that seriously. by this i mean that i don't concern myself w/ bein scared about them shootin a quick punishin jab through my face. i simply react accordingly. i think a lot of people over-estimate their actual skill level, and i personally like to keep it very real. i'm not sayin i can't get took, cuz of course anyone can. but i think if u think defensively, u'll fight defensively. and when i fight, my "defense" is my offense(i'm sure u may trai nthe same way). and i would expect that my trainin would kick in and i'll emerge victorious. since i've began this type of trainin, i've yet to been taken yet, but then again i guess they weren't as good of fighters as they thought and i haven't fought any good fighters yet. i'm always open to gainin deeper insight through experience and learnin somethin new. thanx for the debates sir "mouth fighter"(as u've dubbed urself), its good to have some entertainment after a hard days work. :) good luck and peace be with u bro(s)!

[chen zhen]

Counter against jab?
Lean body backwards out of range & sidekick his knee/shin. Train this with good shinguards, and beware of keeping the right distance while doing this.

[yuanfen]

Lean back? A possible recipe for disaster!

Also- often in these discussions a false straw man is sometimes created- many boxers know how to think outside of the box-
when not in the ring.

[namron]

Originally posted by chen zhen
Counter against jab?
Lean body backwards out of range & sidekick his knee/shin. Train this with good shinguards, and beware of keeping the right distance while doing this.

I dont think this is a recipe for disaster, IMO the lead side kick to the knee works quite well to interupt timing & mobility.

Chen Zen are you locking out on this? A mate of mine used to use this side kick often to the lead thigh and knee area to control the fight distancing while sparing, real anoying to get in on and had good boxing hands to boot.

Yuanfen - the lean will protect your head, if you remain completely up right the jam doesnt function as well and you might end up saying goodbye to you scone.

However you will still need to deal with the hands eventually.

As usual the more tools the better (refer numerous sparing threads).;)

[TjD]

Originally posted by namron


I dont think this is a recipe for disaster, IMO the lead side kick to the knee works quite well to interupt timing & mobility.

Chen Zen are you locking out on this? A mate of mine used to use this side kick often to the lead thigh and knee area to control the fight distancing while sparing, real anoying to get in on and had good boxing hands to boot.

Yuanfen - the lean will protect your head, if you remain completely up right the jam doesnt function as well and you might end up saying goodbye to you scone.


not to speak for YF, as he's a bit more knowledgable than me; but i believe he was talking about an appropriate wing chun response. leaning back and kicking may work well for other martial arts but its not very WC. a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs (or whatever other long range weapons they have) for you to avoid.

as to a jam functioning better when you're leaning backwards... thats pretty confusing; the stronger your structure behind the jam, the stronger the jam. leaning back typically isn't very structural.


Originally posted by namron
However you will still need to deal with the hands eventually.

As usual the more tools the better (refer numerous sparing threads).;)

another thing not very WC. the more a tool's been trained the better. adding more poorly developed tools won't help one bit.

[yuanfen]

TJD sez:
but i believe he was talking about an appropriate wing chun response. leaning back and kicking may work well for other martial arts but its not very WC. a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs (or whatever other long range weapons they have) for you to avoid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good analysis.
Leaning back and kicking- leaves you immobile for a moment
and one has to recover their structure before hands can be used effectively.
Not just theory- can be demonstrated.

[namron]

Originally posted by TjD


not to speak for YF, as he's a bit more knowledgable than me; but i believe he was talking about an appropriate wing chun response. leaning back and kicking may work well for other martial arts but its not very WC. a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs (or whatever other long range weapons they have) for you to avoid.

as to a jam functioning better when you're leaning backwards... thats pretty confusing; the stronger your structure behind the jam, the stronger the jam. leaning back typically isn't very structural.



another thing not very WC. the more a tool's been trained the better. adding more poorly developed tools won't help one bit.


What is wing chun..........

The tools cant develop if you dont train them.

[yuanfen]

Namron sez:
The tools cant develop if you dont train them.
------------------------------------------------------------------
A fairly general statement.
Tools have to be understood and developed.
Leaning back and kicking may be an adaptation to a particular situation- but training leaning back and kicking can be due to a
lack of understanding of wing chun dynamics... note that I said maybe- because i dont know what you do. Nothing personal.

[Savi]

If I may, the goal in combat is to end it quickly. This means that what you do has to be efficient in use of space, save time and conserve energy. Leaning back requires more space and more energy. If you are kicking while leaning back, this means that your center of gravity is retreating from your opponent. This also means that the maximum potential in your kick is less than what it should be due to the reverse flow of momentum.

One of the most important points to consider when doing this is the position it leaves you in. Whether you lean back while turning your side or not, your centerline is being exposed to unncessary risk. The accuracy of the kick is only as accurate as what you can see. You don't gain much in this action. The idea of attacking low may be correct, but there are more optimal soultions to this.

Although a successful kick may land, it will not finish the job. If the kick is unsuccessful, you are worse off than when you started.

[CaptinPickAxe]

in my MA, we are taught to take punches like men...only Puzziez and women block punches.

[BeWater]

Exactly! That's why we block punches: we fight like girls (on purpose). :D

[namron]

Originally posted by Savi
If I may, the goal in combat is to end it quickly. This means that what you do has to be efficient in use of space, save time and conserve energy. Leaning back requires more space and more energy. If you are kicking while leaning back, this means that your center of gravity is retreating from your opponent. This also means that the maximum potential in your kick is less than what it should be due to the reverse flow of momentum.

One of the most important points to consider when doing this is the position it leaves you in. Whether you lean back while turning your side or not, your centerline is being exposed to unncessary risk. The accuracy of the kick is only as accurate as what you can see. You don't gain much in this action. The idea of attacking low may be correct, but there are more optimal soultions to this.

Although a successful kick may land, it will not finish the job. If the kick is unsuccessful, you are worse off than when you started.

Mostly agree with the above, as I said earlier eventually youll have to deal with the hands to go on the offensive.

From experience the main way I've seen this used in a sparing situation is to jam the opponents footwork from advancing then follow up with whatever (not necessarily WC).

But with all technique if it isnt followed up on youll lose any advantage you may have briefly attained from breaking your opponents timing or movement. I dont know of many (if any) one hit counters that can guarantee finishing the job either.

IMO if you dont lean out a little on this then your open for a counter, too far back and the kick has no power to stop the advance.

As for accuracy its pretty dam good when you are targeting the advancing lead leg.

The knee bones connected to tha... hip bone....(hum hum).

Yuanfen - I guess what I was trying to express in earlier posts is this is one possible counter form one possible scenario its a good tool to use on the right nut, but part of a package none the less. To much of one response is predictive. :)

[yuanfen]

Namron sez:
Yuanfen - I guess what I was trying to express in earlier posts is this is one possible counter form one possible scenario its a good tool to use on the right nut, but part of a package none the less. To much of one response is predictive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Namron-
wing chun is quite adaptive to situations without sacrificing
key principles. Not leaning back with good wing chun training
actually creates many blazing alternatives- provided one has
wing chun's approach to body coordination.

I do understand your point--- many ways to approach a problem-
but the richness of wing chun is often underestimated by ecclectics.

[chen zhen]

Chen Zen are you locking out on this? A mate of mine used to use this side kick often to the lead thigh and knee area to control the fight distancing while sparing, real anoying to get in on and had good boxing hands to boot.

I'm trained to do this in my JKD. actually I said lean back because I know this is how WC peebs perform their side kick, but we do it especially towards jabs. we drop the supporting leg down to get out of the range of the jab, and then sidekick to the knee/shin. very effective, I almost broke my knee when my instructor showed it to me.:)

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen in Denmark sez:
actually I said lean back because I know this is how WC peebs perform their side kick

______________________________
AAARGH-"something is rotten in denmark"(Hamlet)

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen in Denmark sez:
actually I said lean back because I know this is how WC peebs perform their side kick
-----------------------------------------------------------

AAARRRGH- something is rotten in Denmark (Hamlet)

[chen zhen]

hmm was I wrong?
Then sorry. Dun have to put it that way.:eek::(

[yuanfen]

Reply to chen zen in brackets:

hmm was I wrong?
((If you lean back when kicking and your foot hits something-
you can be thrown back. Now jkd folks can do whatever they want- none of my business))


Then sorry. Dun have to put it that way.

((No problem...no worries- no bad intentions-honest!

:)

[chen zhen]

what I mean is that u dont keep your back straight/vertical while kicking. dont u put your hips into it?;)(not the ass..Ice Cube reference:p)

[yuanfen]

Comments in brackets to chen zen:

what I mean is that u dont keep your back straight/vertical while kicking.

((Yes I do but it is not rigid and dead-it adjusts/sinks etc))

dont u put your hips into it?(not the ass..Ice Cube reference)

((I dont know the ice cube reference. Here in the Arizona desert ice cubes dont last long! Bruce Lee, JKD, MT and others use the hipa lot. IMHO FWIW-- the related hips are justa part of a chain of
connected motions with the knees playing a critical role. Action/reaction- applied physics-reaction can throw you back if you lean- or correct adjustment you have an active path to and fro from the ground))

[Amp]

Originally posted by yuanfen
TJD sez:
a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs


I'd say this is key. It's not a good idea to hang around jabbing distance fighting a boxer. I think I'd prefer to crash in or get the heck out.