Functions of Hook

[mantis108]

First off, Sifu Cottrell contributed a nice post that I think it deserves it own thread. So I copy and paste it here and I add my thoughts to it.

<<<Ou or "Au" in Cantonese is different from Tiao Shou (or Dieu Sao in Cantonese).>>>

Tiao is a kind of lifting IMHO. Diao on the other hand is the motion in question here. I agreed that Dieu Sao is the Cantonese for it. Anyway, IMHO Diao is the "force continuum" of Gao/Ou/Au. It has a plucking energy that "pulls" to the sideway and downward at the same time.

<<<WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a "Hoy Sao" or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It's only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent's hand. >>>

This description fits the old Chinese doorway analogy Paul Lin once posted. I also think that in the case that WHF suggested, all surfaces of the hook hand are used. (ie. the back, the sides, etc...)

<<<The second was a hook that grabbed for an instant then released. This one was called a Tiao or Dieu. This one would grab for an instant then strike or grab enough to restrain for an instant while the other hand struck. >>>

I believe Diao in Meihwa lines is expressed as grab pull to the outside lower corner. We have 2 exercises in CCK TCPM that work on the Diao. Actually, to say pulling is a bit misleading. It should be a folding of the arm rather. It makes a huge difference when there is a substantial weight gap between the exponent and the opponent. BTW, there is a somewhat straight armed pull version that make use of the Hanjibu (winter Chicken stance) as well.

<<<The third is the Au. The Au was a full restraining grab with the hook hand that facilitated either Tsai or Choi the sudden sharp jerking of an opponent's arm or that could go into Chin Na, (Kum Na).>>>

Agreed.

<<<There are no doubt other distinctions that I do not know of but that's my limited take on the subject. Hope it helps.

Steve Cottrell>>>

In Shrfu Shr Zheng Zhong's (Tainan's teacher) Lanjie book there is an entry of "Tanglang Shuang Dan Gao Ji Bu Shrliu Jiao" (16 ways of Double and single hooks) which are somewhat reminiscent of the moves in Zhai Yao Yi Lu (1st rd of essences). I agree that there seems to be more on the subject.

That's my take for now. :)

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108

Forgive me but I must have had a trainwreck mentally. First I messed up Lee Kam Wing's address, (thanks Bailung for letting me know my mistake), secondly I meant Diao not Tiao for hte mantis hook. Guess I need more coffee!

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Pinyin is one of the most confusing things. I can see LKW's conventions in his books had made a deep impression on you. The tones and the dialects in Chinese sometimes are very hard to graspe even for the experienced.

While we are on the subject, Tiao and Diao need to be well defined as different motions IMHO because Tiao appears in Qingdao branch 7* 12 keyword; whereas, Diao appears in the HK counter part. This difference to me indicates significant shift in paradigm, if you will, in the different branches of 7 Stars PM. The Interesting thing is the Diao Chun in HK 7* seems to point to the attribute of a fast and illusive lead or lead hand which often has somewhat of a ricochet effect meaning it does both offense and defense pretty much single-handedly (pun intended). This indicates a high degree of agility and softness ("RoLing" as in the form if you will). If done adeptly, it's pretty impressive. If done poorly, it's messy to the point that it is simply chasing the hands, which is one of the worst thing any Kung Fu stylist should be doing. Just some thoughts for now. :)

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 108 is right in his differentiation. Pinyin and other romanisations are certainly a problem for most. As far as Tiao being in our 12 list, we also have the principle of Diao as we do every other variant of the 12 keyword formula; dodge, shift, bounce etc. However their is only room for 12 at a time and for that we use a good 'common' 12 that represents our style comfortably.. Tiao in our list is roughly translated as 'lift', it represents many techniques. You will find it after 'Pi'-chop, and is often paired with Pi in action as an instant ridirection of force after the application of splitting/chopping. In series and as a identifiable technique or combination; Pi, Tiao, Chong (which is basically- Da) is the chasing method of Chopping, upper cutting and thrust punching. This is a fundamental and often repeated method of Qixing. Although it is conveniently expressed this way, each principle is an individual principle on its own that represents many things.
hope this helps,
b.t

[mantisben]

Can anyone give me an example of the technique of "Tiao" and "Diao" in a 7*PM form? I practice PM as done by the WHF branch.

[MantisifuFW]

Diao is the hook hand of movement two of the Eighteen elders form, (the movement right after you put your feet together and hands by your side).

Tiao is found in the clearing hand before the seven star star stance punch of movement eight, (right after the hook grapple punch) in the same set.

Hope it is clear enough. Noting these movements is tough to do for me.

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Diao is the hook hand of movement two of the Eighteen elders form, (the movement right after you put your feet together and hands by your side).

Tiao is found in the clearing hand before the seven star star stance punch of movement eight, (right after the hook grapple punch) in the same set.

Hope it is clear enough. Noting these movements is tough to do for me.

Steve Cottrell
This is definitely clear enough. I know exactly which movements you are taking about. Thank you very much.

So, "Diao" is a hook, but "Tiao" is not. At least, when I do the 18 Elders form, it is an open-hand "Clearing Hand", like you said. Should the "Clearing Hand" form a "Hook" at the end of clearing?

Thank you again for responding to my question.

[Young Mantis]

Mantisben,

First, this is just difference in phonetics, but I generally write "tiao" as "tiu".

In the WHF lineage, "tiu" is most commonly expressed in three ways: "tiu bo chui", "go tiu sao", and "tiu jeung".

"Tiu bo chui" has already been described by Sifu Cottrell. In the WHF book for "Sup Baht Sao", they are movements #8 and 17. This is using "tiu" with the arm to block or lift an opponents arm to create the opening for the "bo chui" punch.

"Go tiu sao" is the same concept as "tiu bo chui" and in fact is usually followed by the "bo chui" as in #27 and #28 of Daw Ghong. It also uses the arm in a lifting motion to create an opening but adds the dimension of explosive step in footwork.

"Tiu jeung" is found at the end of many forms such as all the "Zhaat Yiew" forms as well as throughout many other forms. It is most often done in the tiger-riding stance and the double lifting palms.

In response to your last question though, "tiao" and "diao" do not share anything in common except that both intercept and re-direct an opponents arm and that their names rhyme. There is not a hooking motion at the end of "tiao".

YM

[tanglang]

I'm performing forms in the LKW-way and still I'm not sure about diao.Tiao is clear.Maybe someone could describe the movement of the arm/hand- from where to where, how is the hand-movement, and so on..? And, to make it even more complicated: LKW has two different TIAOS. The first is the intercept mantis hand grab.Your TIAO.Clear.The second describes the 15th of LKW 31 key-words and his explanation is: to ward off -the skill TIAO is meant to sprout from below to above= roundhousepunch to the genitales.So- is this diao?:confused: thx..lol

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Mantisben,
...
"Tiu jeung" is found at the end of many forms such as all the "Zhaat Yiew" forms as well as throughout many other forms.

What is the english translation of "Zhaat Yiew"? Are these the "Route Essence" forms?


In response to your last question though, "tiao" and "diao" do not share anything in common except that both intercept and re-direct an opponents arm and that their names rhyme. There is not a hooking motion at the end of "tiao".

YM
I've always thought "Tiao" was the Mantis hook, but it is actually "Diao" that uses the Mantis hook.

Thank you for your explanation.

[mantis108]

First off, thank you all for the input.

Hi Brendan,

Great info. Thanks, bros. :)

Hi Sifu Cottrell,

Thanks for the follow up. It makes it really clear for a lot of people.

Hi Tanglang,

In LKW's book, they used the same phonetic for the 2 different words and that the confussion began.

#5 of the 31 is IMHO Diao (intercept) that is with hooking motion

#21 of the 31 is Tiao (ward off) is the somewhat lifting motion that has been discussed. In the book this is given as a circular motion ending with a strike to the groin as the line of travel of the circle returns form the lowest point of the circle to higher point. In this case, he has given 2 examples of Tiao with a smooth motion embeding the concept of defense and offense all in one move. Hope this is clear for you. There is no hooking motion in Tiao as said before.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by tanglang
The first is the intercept mantis hand grab.

This is Diao, according to the information presented in this thread. It is figure 468 in the Lee Kam Wing book "The Secret of Seven-Star Mantis Style" where Lee Kam Wing is doing the form "Pung Po". The "Diao" is the "Left Intercept Hand with Hill-Climbing Stance" right before the "Right Chopping Fist" in the 2nd road of Pung Po.


The second describes the 15th of LKW 31 key-words and his explanation is: to ward off -the skill TIAO is meant to sprout from below to above...
According to this thread, this is "Tiao".

[German Bai Lung]

Hi,

referring to the Yale cantonese Spelling:

Intercept: diu (and the 5th keyword LKW lineage)
Ward off: tiu (and the 15th keyword LKW lineage)


Tiu can be found coming with:
tiu jeong: as Young Mantis explained it
tiu tong choi: block with the right arm and straight punch with left! (LKW book page 131)

In fact you found often tiu after diu! :D
Last action in the first road of Sab Ba sao Kuen:
Mantis Hand and the Bo Choi (#20,21). Like Young Mantis mentioned before: there is a ward off with the open hand before the punch!

So I would also say: tiu is no hook! ;)

[tanglang]

It's LKW 15(!!!)=Tiao or @German Bailung: TIU.. so now -finally- the whole discussion in the other thread makes sence for me and doesn't sound like "chinese" anymore--hehe... :D warm regards TL;)

[MantisifuFW]

As we have defined the motion clearly I figured we could continue our discussion of the technique's usage. (Good Confucian principle there, "Retification of Terms").

The use of the Dieu Sao in Bung Bo Kuen found in WHF's version movement #22, the upward elbow with the Twisting Stance indicates the strength required in the Dieu to effect restraing the opponent's arm and providing an opposing brace while the elbow attacks.

The use of the Dieu facilitates a quick release, if necessary, that cannot be done as easily with the Fung Sao (grabbing hand). However in movement #23 of Bung Bo Kuen the Dieu Sao continues to restrain the arm while the practitioner moves into the sideward elbow. Clearly the Dieu is more than a transistional restraint and must be trained as such.

Anyway just another aspect of the Dieu Sao.

(trying to help things along...)
Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
The use of the Dieu Sao in Bung Bo Kuen found in WHF's version movement #22, the upward elbow with the Twisting Stance indicates the strength required in the Dieu to effect restraing the opponent's arm and providing an opposing brace while the elbow attacks.

The use of the Dieu facilitates a quick release, if necessary, that cannot be done as easily with the Fung Sao (grabbing hand). However in movement #23 of Bung Bo Kuen the Dieu Sao continues to restrain the arm while the practitioner moves into the sideward elbow. Clearly the Dieu is more than a transistional restraint and must be trained as such.

Anyway just another aspect of the Dieu Sao.

(trying to help things along...)
Steve Cottrell

Sifu Cottrell,

I would like to add this application to Bung Bo movement #22 for the forum members to consider:

While the solo form does show the right hand to use a diew sao (mantis hook hand) while twisting into the scissor stance, in application we use the fung sao (full grab). We feel the fung sao is a better choice for pulling the opponent's arm and controlling it for the elbow strike.

In WHF's solo Bung Bo book, he does describe the right hand as forming a diew sao. However in his Ling Bung Bo book, he says after doing the pek choy, the right hand uses fung to catch the ling side's wrist. He does not mention diew sao for this movement in the Ling Bung Bo book.

I think this is a great example of the difference between solo form and practical application. I believe the performance of the diew sao in the solo form is merely cosmetic. It is an example of hidden or disguised techniques within the solo form.

When we practice the ling bung bo form and also this technique in isolated application partner drills, we always use a fung sao.

Just another way to look at this technique.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm,

I think the differences are so small.

I.E. take some different moves:

Fung tong choi and the technique from the sam lou ja yiu: mantis hook with open hand slash to opponents throat.

They both look very different but the application of the moves are very similiar (except the kind of punch!).

In my opinion there is not much difference in the applikation of diu sao and fung sao.
When you grap - you grap. ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

Feng or sealing as I have seen it is "sealing" the opponents arm to his body.

Or you could say pushing his arm to his body.

Diao, the hooking hand(actually means tricky) is pulling the opponent by the wrist.

Young Mantis,
Do I understand you to say that your definition is different?

[tanglang]

Hmmm- maybe I`ll mess it totally up because of my speech-problem and phonetics; but I'm not quite sure what you have in mind if you hear feng, Tainan mantis? Could you give an example please? I agree in what Young Mantis said, I'm used to make a full grab also ( hope it is called "fung", like fung tong choi, ie. as I understand it: grabbing the opponents arm and pull it towards ME ) And if I understood mantis 108 right, he described it as pulling towards oneself as well because he said seven stars' hook, grab, pluck / OU LOU is the same as TJPM feng /bi.
Lo is understood as a grab in 7 Stars as in other mantis branches as well. In TJPM in general, Lo or the grab is applied to a specific target area. Depending on the target area and the follow through action, Lo could be either feng (sealing) or Bi (closing). 7 Stars in general seems to be less concerned with the subtleties of these mechanics. It rather looks at the immediate act which is - a grab is a grab. TJPM would look at the intent or the follow through of the act which is either to seal or to close with the grab. So then you would have hook grab pluck hang in 7 stars keywords while these are grouped under Feng Bi in TJPM keyword.
So it would help at this point if the TCPM-people could give an example for feng and bi? Because if I got YOU, Tainan mantis, then you mean push TOWARDS the opponent- I think this would fit much more to the english word seal also???
So in other words: is there a difference between fung and feng? Forgive me if I understood something totally wrong.. you know my cantonese and english is not as fluent as my german- hehe..:D

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


While the solo form does show the right hand to use a diew sao (mantis hook hand) while twisting into the scissor stance, in application we use the fung sao (full grab). We feel the fung sao is a better choice for pulling the opponent's arm and controlling it for the elbow strike.

In WHF's solo Bung Bo book, he does describe the right hand as forming a diew sao. However in his Ling Bung Bo book, he says after doing the pek choy, the right hand uses fung to catch the ling side's wrist. He does not mention diew sao for this movement in the Ling Bung Bo book.

I think this is a great example of the difference between solo form and practical application. I believe the performance of the diew sao in the solo form is merely cosmetic. It is an example of hidden or disguised techniques within the solo form.

When we practice the ling bung bo form and also this technique in isolated application partner drills, we always use a fung sao.

Just another way to look at this technique.

YM

YM,

Thank you for your presentation of alternatives. I also agree with your analysis of the Fung as a stronger gripping too. Even so, while it is true the the Fung does give a stronger grip, the release of this technique is slower than the Dieu. When used with Duan Ging, (short energy) the Dieu is equally effective to the Fung in assisting the attack.

When I was taught the Ling Bung Bo, we too used the Fung Sao as it both taught variation and helped to secure the flow of the set in performances. We also were taught to use the Dieu. As that was the topic of the thread, I confined my comments to that area. Thank you for, wisely, presenting the range of technique possible. We do not always use the Fung Sao for such things.

Finally, as for the books, I always read them carefully. As you know there are variations, mistakes and some would say, errors in them.

Again, I appreciate your analysis and insight.

Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Feng or sealing as I have seen it is "sealing" the opponents arm to his body.

Or you could say pushing his arm to his body.

Diao, the hooking hand(actually means tricky) is pulling the opponent by the wrist.

Young Mantis,
Do I understand you to say that your definition is different?

Tainan Mantis,

I would not restrict my definition of Fung Sao to be only pushing the opponents arm to his own body. Although we do have many techniques that do that or even use one arm to trap the other with the opponent's own body.

However, as mentioned by GBL, there are other applications of Fung Sao where I do not trap the opponents arm against his own body i.e. fung sao tong chui, seung fung sao.

YM

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW

Thank you for your presentation of alternatives. I also agree with your analysis of the Fung as a stronger gripping too. Even so, while it is true the the Fung does give a stronger grip, the release of this technique is slower than the Dieu. When used with Duan Ging, (short energy) the Dieu is equally effective to the Fung in assisting the attack.


Sifu Cottrell,

How much slower do you find the release of Fung Sao as compared to the release of Diew Sao?

YM

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


I believe the performance of the diew sao in the solo form is merely cosmetic. It is an example of hidden or disguised techniques within the solo form.

YM

Are you implying that whenever a diew sao is used in a PM form, in application, it is really a fung sao?

[Young Mantis]

Mantisben,

No, that is not what I am implying. There are definitely times when the diew sao is performed in the solo form and also used in application. However, in this particular movement in Bung Bo, using a fung sao seems more practical.

YM

[-N-]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


Sifu Cottrell,

How much slower do you find the release of Fung Sao as compared to the release of Diew Sao?


YM, Sifu Cottrell,

It may be hard to differentiate the speed difference quantitatively, but you can get a qualitative sense of it.

You are familiar with Sifu Lai's fast version of ou lou tsai or 1-2-3 punch. Try substituting fung for the initial diew and note the result on your technique. Not something I'd want to rely on in application :)

I find the application of this fung as well as the release to be slower compared to the diew.

As far as the diew vs. fung in the upward elbow break sequence, I think that will depend on the relative sensitivity/skill between the two opponents, and if the person really wants to complete the break, or will choose to switch and crash in with horizontal elbow upon detecting opponent's counter to the break.

N.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Mantisben,

There are definitely times when the diew sao is performed in the solo form and also used in application.

YM
Can you give an example of a technique where a diew sao is a diew sao, and not a fung sao? It would make it a bit more clear (in my mind) about the difference between a diew sao, and a fung sao.

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


Sifu Cottrell,

How much slower do you find the release of Fung Sao as compared to the release of Diew Sao?

YM


YM,

The Dieu Sao enables an immediate rebounding energy, (not that it requires such however), where the engagement of the thumb in the Fung Sao, when it is used, requires releasing and disengaging the same before striking. Though the difference is measured in fractions of seconds it is, in my opinion, the reason why the Dieu was invented. It enables greater speed.

So though in real terms the Dieu Sao is not that much faster, in tactical terms it is significant and is why one would choose it over the Fung Sao when the situation required. Hence Hook Grapple Pluck is not Grab Grapple Pluck nor is Dieu Sao Splitting Strike, (Pek Choi), the same as Fung Sao Pek Choi. Both are effective but they are quite different with different energy.

As always YM, if you are not making insightful posts you are urging others to do so. I will try to rise to the occasion. ;)

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by -N-

...
Try substituting fung for the initial diew and note the result on your technique.
I find the application of this fung as well as the release to be slower compared to the diew.
...
N.
This is absolutely true. For me, at least, and the way I apply Ou-Lou-Tsai. It is significantly faster, in application.

[Young Mantis]

Mantisben,

As mentioned earlier by several others, there is a difference in application between these two hands. In response to GBL's comment, "a grab is a grab", I would say not necessarily.

The diew sao is generally a "quicker" grab. The grip is different than a full grab. It should rely more on the last three fingers of the hand to suddenly jerk the opponent's hand. That snapping action is an important aspect to the usage of diew sao which I find some people forget or don't emphasize. It is not the same type of pull as when doing the fung sao. It is a short burst to suddenly pull the opponent off balance or just in a direction advantageous for my next attack. The diew sao as part of ngau, lau, choi is an example as pointed out by -N-. Also in doing Diew Sao, Pek Choi: the diew sao should suddenly jerk my opponent forward into my pek choi.

The fung sao grab is definitely stronger, the pull is more sustained and I use it when wanting more control or restraint on the opponents hand.

I suppose it will come down to the individual and your style of fighting. This I think is the main difference between the two grabs. One allows for faster combinations and not as concerned with really restraining the opponent like the other.

YM

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW

So though in real terms the Dieu Sao is not that much faster, in tactical terms it is significant and is why one would choose it over the Fung Sao when the situation required. Hence Hook Grapple Pluck is not Grab Grapple Pluck nor is Dieu Sao Splitting Strike, (Pek Choi), the same as Fung Sao Pek Choi. Both are effective but they are quite different with different energy.

As always YM, if you are not making insightful posts you are urging others to do so. I will try to rise to the occasion. ;)

Steve Cottrell

I agree completely. It is definitely a difference in tactical usage or fighting style and thus perhaps different for each practitioner.

YM

[mantis108]

Wow, lots of things going on here!

First off, Feng (Mandarin) and Fung (Cantonese) are the same meaning "Seal". This is rather out of this thread but I think it is a good ideal to make clear of this here.

I think there is a general consenses among the HK 7 Stars folks here that Feng equals a grabbing action. Correct me if I am.

Feng is not grabbing per se I am afraid. In the old day in China, if a house or a strongbox was restricted to access, people would put 2 bands usually yellow in color in an X shape and with the date on it and who did the sealing (ie government). This is sealing.

This concept is applied to PM as well. The basic dirll "Yi Bu San Chui" (one step 3 punches) is to teach and drill this concept of "Yi Shou Feng Liang Shou" (one hand sealing 2 hands). BTW, this is the 2 handed sealing. You will put the opponent's arms in this cross shape allowing you to hit him with your free hand. In layman's term this is trapping similar to that of Wing Chun. Because most of the time there is a grab for easier execution, the grab became, for most people, understood as feng. The grab is not feng. The grab is the grab whether it is diao or lo or whatever. It is the crossing of the opponent's arm(s) that is the feng. Also sometime you would push the arms into the opponent's body and sometime you would not. Sometime you would even pull the opponent towards you (dangerous but ...) That depends on whether you are kicking his @$$ or not. It's a matter of how much time you have on your hands (pun intended). :)

The Feng that Tainan mentioned is a single hand feng. This happens most of the time when the opponent is not facing you square on. That's means either his left side or right side is towards you. The push toward the centerline of the opponent that is applied not on or arround the wrist but on the forearm near the elbow, either by a grab or edge of palm, would seal off one side of the opponent and possibly allowing you to either unbalance or controling (his centerline) him.

One thing of note is that HK 7 stars in WHF lineage seems to like to work with the wrist while in LKW's lineage (Lee seems to have worked with the mainland groups before) would work with not only the wrist but also the elbow areas when doing hook grab pluck. This is my own impression. I would think that longfist has a lot of influence in HK 7 stars (I could be dead wrong). Anyway, I hope this clears up the debate on feng being a grab.

Warm regards to all

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantis108

One thing of note is that HK 7 stars in WHF lineage seems to like to work with the wrist while in LKW's lineage (Lee seems to have worked with the mainland groups before) would work with not only the wrist but also the elbow areas when doing hook grab pluck.

I am not sure how the LKW lineage performs hook, grab, pluck but in the WHF lineage, the hook using a diew sao intercepts forearm to forearm and the grab initiates at the forearm and slides to the wrist in the jerk action. The grab (lou) is at the elbow for better control of the entire arm. The lou should not be at the wrist or even forearm. Then the pluck (punch or choi).

I understand your definition of Fung and know exactly what you are talking about. Funny how back then in China they used yellow paper and today police use yellow tape. Anyway, I would say though that yes, in general when we say Fung, it can mean just a full grab and not just the action used in "yut bo sahm choi" to trap the two hands.

YM

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108

...
The grab is not feng. The grab is the grab whether it is diao or lo or whatever. It is the crossing of the opponent's arm(s) that is the feng. Also sometime you would push the arms into the opponent's body and sometime you would not. Sometime you would even pull the opponent towards you (dangerous but ...)
...

What an EXCELLENT description of "Feng/Fung".

The push toward the centerline of the opponent that is applied not on or arround the wrist but on the forearm near the elbow, either by a grab or edge of palm, would seal off one side of the opponent and possibly allowing you to either unbalance or controling (his centerline) him.
...
After this description of feng, it is clear to me that movement #22 in Bung Bo couldn't be feng/sealing as you described it, because pushing your opponents arm "towards the centerline" "on the forearm near the elbow", wouldn't allow you to execute the upward elbow-strike to the opponents arm.

For years I thought this upward-elbow strike was impractical. But after years of my dedicated training and medita... Okay, okay, I saw it in an old issue of "Inside Kung-Fu".:D

I saw a "Penjak Silat" (It could've been Kali) illustration of a similar technique. Something about "Defanging" your opponents weapons. It involved striking your opponents arms/joints so that if his arms hurt enough, he won't be able to hit you with them (or block with them).

Anyway, this guy worked what looked like movement #22 in Bung Bo off of his opponents right straight punch, to "defang" his opponents arm. I liked it.

So, the body mechanics of how I executed this upward-elbow strike in the form changed. When it was time to spar, I was able to execute the Diu with the upward-elbow strike on a couple of different opponents. However, I still need more sparring work on this technique before it goes in my "little Bag-A-Tricks".

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis

...
However in his Ling Bung Bo book, he says after doing the pek choy, the right hand uses fung to catch the ling side's wrist.
...

YM
Catching involves grabbing, but catching is much MORE than grabbing. If you "Catch a ball", it usually means you grabbed the ball while it was in flight or airborne. If you "grab a ball", it was probably just lying on the ground, motionless.

If after doing pek choy, your right hand uses fung to catch the ling sides' wrist, then the ling side's wrist MUST be coming at you to strike, so you can catch the wrist in motion like a ball, and execute the upward elbow-strike.

However, if after doing pek choy you simply use fung to "grab" the ling side's wrist, then you did not catch the wrist. You simply grabbed the wrist, which is analogous to grabbing the ball lying motionless on the ground.

I'm sure WHF meant "Catch" (grab something in motion) and not "Grab" (grab something not in motion), because, in my experience, "Catching" my opponents wrist and executing the upward elbow-strike has yielded better results than "Grabbing" my opponents wrist and trying to pull it straight to hit it with the upward elbow-strike.

I may be wrong, but on the Ling side of Bung Bo, after the opponent blocks your Pek Choy, "ling" is probably supposed to strike you with the right hand, then you "Catch" ling's wrist (ling's wrist is now in motion) with fung and execute the upward elbow-strike. In this case, either a Fung or a Diu (Diu as used in movement #22 of Bung Bo) will work, effectively.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben

Catching involves grabbing, but catching is much MORE than grabbing. If you "Catch a ball", it usually means you grabbed the ball while it was in flight or airborne. If you "grab a ball", it was probably just lying on the ground, motionless.

If after doing pek choy, your right hand uses fung to catch the ling sides' wrist, then the ling side's wrist MUST be coming at you to strike, so you can catch the wrist in motion like a ball, and execute the upward elbow-strike.

However, if after doing pek choy you simply use fung to "grab" the ling side's wrist, then you did not catch the wrist. You simply grabbed the wrist, which is analogous to grabbing the ball lying motionless on the ground.

I'm sure WHF meant "Catch" (grab something in motion) and not "Grab" (grab something not in motion), because, in my experience, "Catching" my opponents wrist and executing the upward elbow-strike has yielded better results than "Grabbing" my opponents wrist and trying to pull it straight to hit it with the upward elbow-strike.

I may be wrong, but on the Ling side of Bung Bo, after the opponent blocks your Pek Choy, "ling" is probably supposed to strike you with the right hand, then you "Catch" ling's wrist (ling's wrist is now in motion) with fung and execute the upward elbow-strike. In this case, either a Fung or a Diu (Diu as used in movement #22 of Bung Bo) will work, effectively.

Mantisben,

I paraphrased what WHF wrote in his book. He actually does not use the word catch or grab. In very few words he says, the fist becomes fung on the opponents wrist. There is no specific inference if it is a catch of something in motion or a grab of something not in motion nor did I mean to imply one or the other.

I do not know if you learned Ling Bung Bo or even if you did whether or not your version is the same as mine. But in my version, after I do the pek choi and opponent blocks, I immediately grab the blocking hand before he has a chance to return a strike. I have to do this right after he blocks and before he disengages so I am still in contact with his blocking arm. When I pull him and twist in my stance, I control his arm and upper body since the pull will rotate his lead side forward. So in a sense, I have controlled his centerline. Then I apply the elbow strike which does not have to be vertically straight up. It could be at an angle depending on where his elbow is pointing and how tall the opponent is relative to me.

I did not think grab and catch had such a major difference when I posted earlier. I guess I should think more carefully which words to use when writing.

YM

[-N-]

We can think of fung in the general sense of sealing or securing.

This concept can include:
- grabbing as in fung tung chui
- two handed grabbing as in serng fung sao tung chui
- downward pressing as in combination with huen chui
- trapping as already mentioned by Tainan Mantis and Mantis108

For us fung includes more than just grabbing, but we commonly use the term fung when talking about a full handed grab/pull.

As YM explained, in WHF we can initiate ou lou choi with forearm contact followed by wrist. Even within WHF there is variation.

If you study Sifu Lai's ou lou choi, you find that the ou in this case is almost imperceptible with no element of jerking. He has kept only the sensitivity portion of the ou, and discarded any force aspect of the motion. Sifu Lai's approach emphasized sensitivity, speed, and instantaneous change directed into the opponent's mental and physical openings.

His english terms for ou-lou-choi concept were not hook-grapple-pluck, but intercept-control-strike. Even diou as a hook/jerk was too slow for him, so his diou was barely a touch which served to determine the opponent's force or energy - no jerk or redirection. Additionally, lou was not a grab/grapple, but a downward strike at mid forearm followed by sensitive sticking.

Under Sifu Lai, at the advanced level, ou-lou-choi is expected to be executed as described above. In this version, under ideal conditions, there is no forearm contact on the initial intercept. The lou motion is applied to the opponent's mid-forearm and can result in temporary paralysis of the lower arm. Also, the lou serves to momentarily redirect, sink, or pin the opponent's force into the ground, as well as to borrow from his momentum in applying the strike.

So we see a few things here. Based on Sifu Lai's preferences he chose to emphasize different aspects of each of the motions in ou lou choi. The ou/diou is completely empty of energy, the lou is no longer a grab, but an energetic strike that disappears into sensitive sticking/floating. With sensitivity and force so extremely separated between the first two motions, there is no energy for the opponent to detect until it is too late when the lou and choi occur practically simultaneously. The effect is like an explosion or lightning, in appearing and disappearing.

N.

[-N-]

Mantisben, Young Mantis,

The difficulty in using the words catch and grab in relation to fung is an example of cultural differences affecting our understanding of kungfu.

Fung is a type of kungfu jargon, and has a particular meaning within the Praying Mantis world. In explaining the idea behind fung, a teacher can use a variety of words, whether they be english or chinese. In english, we may say grab or catch, let alone the literal translation of seal.

The chinese word Sifu Lai used to explain fung was "cheong". There is no one english word that I can think of that corresponds to cheong. But basically it means "to snatch". A more complete sense of the word may be something like, "to steal or tear away with aggressive and vicious intent where the victim is caught unawares and resists weakly to no avail". So our fung is done in that context.

When Sifu said "cheong", a big kungfu lightbulb went on over my head :)

N.

p.s. With regard to viciousness... Sifu would say, "more vicious, more vicious!". And after you got that part correct, he'd say, "yes, but think happy thoughts!" Which is probably why I smile sometimes when sparring :)

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


Mantisben,

I paraphrased what WHF wrote in his book. He actually does not use the word catch or grab. In very few words he says, the fist becomes fung on the opponents wrist. There is no specific inference if it is a catch of something in motion or a grab of something not in motion nor did I mean to imply one or the other.
...

YM
If WHF says "the fist becomes fung on the opponents wrist", then the movement is a "grab" and not a "catch", and my post went off in the wrong direction.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by -N-
...
If you study Sifu Lai's ou lou choi, you find that the ou in this case is almost imperceptible with no element of jerking.
...
His english terms for ou-lou-choi concept were not hook-grapple-pluck, but intercept-control-strike. Even diou as a hook/jerk was too slow for him, so his diou was barely a touch which served to determine the opponent's force or energy - no jerk or redirection.
...

N.
This sounds like "Hoy Sao" as explained by Sifu Steve Cotrell:

WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a "Hoy Sao" or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It's only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent's hand.

[B.Tunks]

-N-

I was taught exactly the way you were in regards to gou lou right down to the method of impact and the higher level aim, to cause damage upon contact.

I agree with tainan and 108's description of feng as a specific method however I also agree with the common usage of the term feng, however it must imply redirecting or pulling/pushing the arm (usually across or down) to facilitate a strike/push/throw.
I think there is certainly a difference between the interpretations but they are all closely related. In my experience and using feng in its 'sealing' sense, the arm doesnt always have to be pushed into the body, as long as the arms are 'sealed'.
b.t

[B.Tunks]

Also, Feng doesnt always use the thumb to 'grip'. Quite often not at all.

[mantisben]

The Diu Sao and upward elbow with the Twisting Stance in the 2nd road of Bung Bo. Anybody know if there is a particular name for this technique? Something colorful or poetic?

[-N-]

Sifu Tunks,

Interesting! Thanks so much for your comments. The opening to this frog's well just got a little bigger :)

N.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by mantisben
The Diu Sao and upward elbow with the Twisting Stance in the 2nd road of Bung Bo. Anybody know if there is a particular name for this technique? Something colorful or poetic?

Hmm, we call it "tip kao". But I fear thats not poetic enough! :D

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung


Hmm, we call it "tip kao". But I fear thats not poetic enough! :D
I knew that it was the "Tip" in "Tip Kao", but I think "Tip" describes the principle "Tag" more than the technique. It is very possible that there is no poetic name for the technique. For me, the poetic/names like "Tyrant treats" (the double-hand grab in the 2nd road of Bung Bo) sometimes offer insight into a technique's execution.

How about just the Chinese name. Like Fung Tung Choi, "Fung" describing the grab (or seal) and "Tung Choi" describing the straight punch. What is the Chinese name for the Diu and the upward elbow strike? Is it Fung Kip Sao? Diu Kip Sao? My guess it would be Diu _______ and not Fung ______ because in the form, it is a Diu that is executed.

[B.Tunks]

Not poetic but a different name for the same thing;
Gua Er Zhou. Hang Ear Elbow.
Usually only the major part of the technique is named therefore there wont be a mention of the other hand in most cases, certainly not in most Quan Pu.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by B.Tunks
Not poetic but a different name for the same thing;
Gua Er Zhou. Hang Ear Elbow.
Usually only the major part of the technique is named therefore there wont be a mention of the other hand in most cases, certainly not in most Quan Pu.
"Gua" Er Zhou. There is that 4th keyword again (Gua). Thank you for the response.

[tanglang]

So thx to all of you guys- liked the explanation of "feng" VERY much and it made a lot of things clearer- then the thing about thumb or not thumb- well I also think that a grab without thumb might be faster . Maybe the grab would be a bit less powerfull, but, I agree: faster because of less muscles involved. - and: Gua again finally: the circle closes.:)

[Young Mantis]

Mantisben,

Unfortunately, WHF does not give a poetic name for this technique in his book. Most of his writing was in a technical fashion to standardize names for movements. In his book he names this technique, "lou bo jaw nim jow" - twisting stance left sticking elbow.

Sorry don't have anything poetic to add but I know what you mean in regards to the name sometimes helping to understand some facet of the the technique.

YM

[mantis108]

The elbow in question is known as Chaotian Zhou as found in Alexander Tse's Taichi Mantis Peng Pu Boxing book p. 49 "Posture 25 Upwardly Directed Eblow." although I prefer to refer to it as sky facing elbow smash instead. There is however a difference in the stances which is riding tiger stance in our version. In an old 7 Star Beng Bu Quanpu provided by Sifu Carl Albright, that and the immediate following elbow move are counted as one and the move is call Nau Bo Gwai Jow "twisted step turning (?) elbow". Gwai is kind of hard to translate.

Mantis108

[Albino_Mantis]

Okay, being new to this forum and all, I am confused why a student of Praying Mantis would come to a message board to find out information on techniques and forms, instead of asking these questions of their Sifu.

I mean no disrespect to the people who have been nice enough to answer the questions, but as I understand the martial arts world, the student coming to a “public forum” to ask the questions they should be asking of their Sifu is insulting their Sifu.

If people on this board are training without a Sifu, then they should be making an effort to find a way to spend time with a recognized Sifu, even if its only a few times a year. Once you have established that relationship, you can communicate your questions to that Sifu.

[BeiTangLang]

"Okay, being new to this forum and all, I am confused why a student of Praying Mantis would come to a message board to find out information on techniques and forms, instead of asking these questions of their Sifu. "

A student of Mantis may want to know what others call things for reference sake or to see what other families of mantis teach.
I know of no one trying to learn the mantis system from this site, nor could they even if they wished it.

The members discussing this topic are far from beginers & if the thread is read, much knowledge can be obtained.

Two words;
Scholarly persuit

[Albino_Mantis]

I humbly aplogize for my brashness.

I hope all of you will forgive my overstepping my bounds.

:(